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Is Thailand deliberately trying to sabotage it's own tourism industry?


spidermike007

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1 minute ago, bwpage3 said:

How many high end malls do you routinely shop at?

 

There are no deals there, read what others have written.

 

If the malls are aimed at tourists, who are they aimed at?

 

The wealthy Thai's are all shopping overseas.

 

 

 

Not at the moment they are not are they

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2 hours ago, polpott said:

TAT numbers. Like the TAT numbers recently announced that each Chinese tourist that came in on the first wave of STV visitors would spend 400,000 baht each. Did you buy into that?

 

The only way to attract high end Chinese tourists is to build a city full of casinos. Owned by Chinese, managed by Chinese, same as the zero baht tours.. Take a look at Sihanoukville. How much has it benefited local Cambodians?

 

I flew to China over 20 times during my 7 years in Thailand, often the only white face on a planeload to a secondary city (only 12 million people).  I was gobsmacked at the amount of goodies they had bought in Thailand and were bringing back.  I also had Chinese friends who paid for their entire trip to Europe and the USA by smuggling back luxury items to resell in China. 

 

They'd leave China with a shopping list from friends and family and bring back cases and cases of goodies.  For LOS, it was mostly food items and cosmetics since luxury taxes are so high compared to EU, UK and USA.  Instead of polishing barstools, they go out filling orders.  Which may not make them popular with the bar owners, but it does make them very profitable for the vendors who adjust to suit the customers as they exist in the present.

 

Thailand can't help that the Cambodians have done it wrong...  Hopefully, they'll learn from Cambodia's mistakes.

 

Edited by impulse
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6 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I flew to China over 20 times during my 7 years in Thailand, often the only white face on a planeload to a secondary city (only 12 million people).  I was gobsmacked at the amount of goodies they had bought in Thailand and were bringing back.  I also had Chinese friends who paid for their entire trip to Europe and the USA by smuggling back luxury items to resell in China.  They'd leave China with a shopping list from friends and family and bring back cases and cases of goodies.  For LOS, it was mostly food items since luxury taxes are so high compared to EU, UK and USA.  

 

Thailand can't help that the Cambodians have done it wrong...

 

Speaking from personal experience, luxury goods taxes are even HIGHER in China than in Thailand and for that matter as is anything imported. Which is why Chinese often do purchase some luxury goods in Thailand to bring back home, just not in the quantities they do when heading to Europe/Australia/North America. That stated, the demographic that visits Thailand and other SE Asian countries is a very different one from those that visit developed western countries. 

 

Just as a quick example - go to a Chinese supermarket selling imported food. Not only is the selection far smaller than what's available in a Thai supermarket, but prices are often 50-100% higher for comparable items. Kambly biscuits from Switzerland, average price 128 Baht sold at Tops, Foodland or Gourmet Market. In China often around 40-45 Yuan, which is roughly 180-200+ Baht.  

Edited by TheFreqFlyer
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55 minutes ago, TheFreqFlyer said:

 

Tourism will return next year with a vengeance? Wishful thinking on your part. Aside from the pronouncement that Chinese (and possibly a few other "low-risk" nationalities could be allowed in without quarantine presumably starting around the beginning of February)...which I suspect will be overturned in the last minute as they did with the planned reduction of the quarantine from 14 down to 10 days, it's highly unlikely anything resembling "normality" will return next year.

 

Many organizations including the TAT have taken a stab at estimating tourist arrival numbers for 2021, and their projections are continuously being revised down as we get closer to that time. 

 

Looking at this very thread I am seeing comments that last year would have been considered "conspiracy theory" like mandatory vaccines to enter the country. I'd say there is absolutely no certainty this vaccine will come, nor is there any certainty with regards to whether it could become mandatory as a pre-condition for travel. Even if it does, I suspect that's only the tip of the iceberg.

 

We're more likely looking at something like Covipass, a digital health passport that will be used not only to cross borders, but to check-in to businesses. Then there's that pesky face mask requirement that doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. CoviPass will presumably replace the face mask requirement, but fat chance we're going to back to the old normal of just walking into a supermarket or mall at will, without a face covering and/or clicking away on our phones. Of course, vaccines may eventually be added to Covipass too. 

 

It is very difficult to conceive of any country, Thailand included, returning to a position of normality next year without any of these cumbersome requirements. I don't see Thailand attracting very many visitors with a vaccine requirement for entry (a lot of people will be turned off), or with Covipass or Common Pass or any other digital health passports, which, as I've alluded to, will go much further than just facilitating your entry into the country but will mostly likely be needed to participate in society once you're across the border. Sure, by the time this system goes into effect it will likely be global and you might by then be used to using it at home, but I still can't imagine a "new abnormal" as attracting any significant visitor numbers to a country like Thailand. Vacations are supposed to be about letting your hair down, not worrying about whether you might be arrested for not wearing a face mask or denied entry into a store because you didn't bring your phone, or raising the real possibility of stand-offs with local security guards over these sorts of requirements. 

 

I laugh at your naivety regarding your statement "all the freedoms the country has to offer". What freedoms? Most of them were stolen back in late March and many of them haven't been returned yet, and possibly never will be. 

 

Either you're an incredible optimist or incredibly naive. Time will tell what happens but I'm not at all optimistic that things will ever go back to normal and that means neither will Thai tourism. I think the good old days ended in early 2020 and that we're never going to see such times again. Not only in Thailand but the rest of the world. There won't be any more backpacker trips where kids "do" 6 countries in 2 months. Crossing land borders will be just as much a pain as getting on a plane. There'll be no more hopping across a border on a whim. Those days are sadly over. 

Wow so much random negative unfounded speculation in one reply. Is the sky also falling? :laugh:

 

Optimistic, moi? Nah just a bit more of a realist than you appear to be. You pick and choose what you want to believe and hypothesise to your hearts content because that's all you appear to be doing.... The fact is once we have the most vulnerable vaccinated the restrictions will begin to relax. It's already happening by way of the markets response to the 90% news. That's a FACT for you right there. My work takes me all over the world and we are already gearing up for 2021. Another FACT.

 

I don't think anyone is falling off their bar stool in shock that we will most likely be forced to vaccinate before flying to foreign countries from now on. How is that news exactly? We're all sitting tight waiting for the bloody vaccine to be approved and manufactured!!!! 

 

You remind me of a guy I used to work with that all the other guys would laugh at how silly his negativity was. Constantly banging on about how we would all be fired one day and when the end of the contract came he said "see I told you I was right". 

 

Your names not Mick is it? 

Edited by DDBKK
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7 hours ago, TheFreqFlyer said:

 

What are the neighboring countries doing that Thailand isn't? NOTHING! They're certainly NOT trying harder (where do you get the idea they are?) They have the same prohibitive luxury taxes or nothing luxurious to offer to begin with. They have the same poorly motivated, badly educated staff (not to mention, much of the workforce employed in the service sector in Thailand are actually foreigners...but since we're talking Burmese, Cambodians or Laotians, your average farang isn't able to tell).

 

Wealthy visitors are most certainly NOT traveling to Vietnam or Cambodia, Laos or Myanmar in any greater frequency than to Thailand.

 

You were heading on the right track before you made that classic moaning farang mistake of suggesting poorer neighboring countries are somehow magically immune to some of the handicaps that Thailand has. That's laughable. From my own experiences working in and visiting these countries, as bad as Thailand is, most things in these countries are a lot worse. No wonder they generally attract only backpackers and tour groups, as well as adventurous types willing to rough it, but with rare exceptions, most definitely not well healed tourists. 

No, no and no.

 

Surrounding countries are in the EXACT same boat as Thailand.

 

Not better, not worse.

 

You have no clue who or in what numbers other surrounding countries are getting tourists?  Don't try to act like you do because you don't.

 

On these forums, you hear stories of farangs moving FROM Thailand to these other surrounding countries. 

 

Not too many if any stories anyone moving TO Thailand from these countries?

 

Desperate sex mongers or broke retirees who cannot afford to retire in their own country are the bulk of who is here.

 

The third world is still the third world whether you can recognize that at all.

 

You don't seem to understand Thailand, Covid or Not, is NOT moving forward. What has moved forward since the PM took over? Air pollution? Overcrowding? Exchange Rate? Ease of Visa's? Student protesting? Are those all signs Thailand is OK and doing better than any of it's neighbors?

 

Get a grip on reality.

 

 

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6 hours ago, TheFreqFlyer said:

Not sure Thais will warm up to farang travelers (or indeed any foreign travelers) coming back anytime soon.

 

Did you guys see the report of the 3 old grannies who blocked the Mae Sot friendship bridge in Tak province, demanding it be closed because 2 truck drivers tested positive? The bridge was shuttered the next day for a period of one week. 

 

That's the sort of thing that we're going to see from now on. The locals have zero tolerance for covid, and to them foreign visitors are like the plague. 

 

So that's my prediction Spidermike. We're in for some dark days yet...there is no point in trying to predict how much longer these restrictions will be in place, but based on the authorities shooting down a reduction of the quarantine time from 14 days down to 10 for just 6 low-risk nationalities, I think we'll be very lucky if there's going to be any substantial change in entry requirements in 6 or even 12 months from now.

 

Even in Australia they're saying quarantines on incoming travelers will remain in place until at least the end of the first half of 2021 (more recently they've said no foreign travel until maybe end of 2021), except for specific quarantine free "green lanes", the first one being a unilateral one with New Zealand, for arrivals into NSW and the NT effective since October 16. It will probably be several weeks or months before travelers from Australia will be allowed to arrive in NZ quarantine free and then there are still over 200 countries to go! 

 

As I've stated, CoviPass and an eventual vaccine could become a travel requirement, but there's probably more to it than that. We're talking a "traffic light" system, where for every interaction with society you need to have a green light or you won't be able to enter businesses or use certain services. Exactly the system they've got in place in China. The Philippines and Greece are introducing such a QR code system as we speak. Starting Nov 23, anyone caught outside their home without this QR code in the Philippines could be subject to arrest. 

 

I think it will be cumbersome enough dealing with that at home, so I can't see many people paying good money to come to Thailand to put up with it here. As a result, travel will probably never look like it once did. Finally...there is always a small glimmer of hope that this could all blow over and we could actually return to the old normal eventually, but I am neither confident this will happen nor can I put a timeframe on when that might be the case.

 

Whatever happens, with borders remaining closed for the foreseeable future, soon there will be nothing left to return to, all the SMEs will have gone bust, leaving you with Central Department Store and some 4 and 5 star hotels owned by the big hospitality chains. Why bother coming to Thailand for that? Same kind of thing can be found in Florida, Queensland, the Caribbean or Spain potentially at cheaper prices. 

With the current reduced state of airlines around the world, how do you propose all these tourists are going to get to Thailand in the event Thailand did open up?

 

Still many airlines operating at greatly reduced levels and have their own requirements for traveling to and from their own countries.

 

This is a bilateral problem, not just Thailand opening it's borders.

 

One thing you are correct on? People will find the same kind of experiences in other places you mentioned, enjoy them even more and won't ever give Thailand a second thought.

 

 

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Of course they are not intentionally trying to ruin tourism which amounts to something like 20% of GDP.

 

The problem is that it as become a political issue. Many Thais are scared of it and simply put if the Government open up and Covid spreads widely, it will take away the last remaining point which the Government can point as a success story.

 

Its not just Thailand, many countries are not allowing tourists or at least not easily. eg. Australia, New Zealand.

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14 hours ago, bwpage3 said:

"They simply have too many great options, with outstanding service, expertise, and reasonable taxes"

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

 

People that live in Thailand, or have lived in Thailand for a while, are use to Thailand.

 

They have their own experiences and opinions about the place.

 

Same was true when I lived in Thailand.

 

I can say after moving back in 2013 and returning in 2019 to install a well in my FIL's house, I had first hand experience just how bad Thailand had declined in those 6 years. Air pollution was horrid, traffic? Driving a rental car from the airport to Isaan was a stressful nightmare, much worse than driving for the 10 years I lived there. Nothing to me seemed to have gotten better. Costs were up. Baht exchange low. The only thing that never changes is Isaan. 

 

However, once I moved back into corporate America and had more income to spend, I did Not consider flying half way round the world to Thailand for a vacation as something I would ever want to do.

 

The reason being there are too many great options close to home, easy to travel to, visa is easy, people love tourists and just make a much more pleasant holiday experience.

 

This has nothing to do with bashing Thailand. 

 

I don't really want to spend over 20+ hours flying one way trying to get to Thailand. After living in Thailand, there is nothing left there for me to see or do. Air pollution is getting worse, traffic and just dealing with with Thai people who just don't understand customer service.

 

I can pop down to Miami and be in Aruba in 2:10 minute flight for $200 bucks. Aruba is named One Happy Island for a reason. Not only do you have incredibly high end hotels with casinos, the restaurants, beaches, etc. are all world class. Diving, snorkeling, golf, off-roading etc. means plenty of things to do and zero worries about the jet ski scam or getting scammed at all.

 

Latin America, South America, even Europe is much easier to get to.

 

Photo: Morning walk on the beach in Aruba. No sun chair vendors, no jet ski scams, no trash.

 

 

61567336_143612956795454_6787496655076720640_o.jpg

 

Like many of us on this forum, I love Thailand, and have a very high quality of life here, one that I could never have, nor would I want to have in the US. I am thankful every day of my life, that I left that place behind. But, we do have issues, and I totally agree Thailand is moving backwards. The extremely toxic and regressive leadership of Prayuth and the army is a large part of that. But, there are countless other factors too. 

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9 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

 

Your statement about desperate sex mongers, and broke retirees being the bulk of what is here, is beyond ignorant, based on little to nothing in the way of knowledge, or facts, and is nothing more than a hostile trope. I know several guys living here who are millionaires, several times over. I know many guys who have pensions well in excess of 100,000 baht a month. I would never refer to that as desperate, or broke. I know guys here who own alot of land, houses, condos, nice cars or trucks, and have many overseas investments. Many are family men, and are total boy scouts. A gross generalization like the one you made is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

I do agree that Thailand is not moving forward. On that point we agree. 

Come on Mike?

 

By your own admission you know several guys out of over 100,000+ expats that are millionaires?

 

What is the average income of most expats, not the several you know out of 100,000+?

 

How soon you forget the 100's, not several, posts of people that claimed to be surviving on less than 40,000 tbh per month.

 

100,000 a month pension is only $3,000 US, that is nothing to be tooting a horn about.

 

When you claim gross generalization and then say you know several out of 100,000+ expats, what does that say about you and your assessment?

 

Your own assessment is the one that is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

Do you honestly think because you know several millionaire expats that is the norm in Thailand? Remember you quoted several of out 100,000+?

 

Do you think there are more expat school teachers in Thailand or expat millionaires?

 

You have a bad habit of name calling and bad-mouthing people when you simply don't have the facts.

 

You are also one of the very few that seem to know all the important millionaires even though you are not of that financial circle.

 

Your behavior reminds me of Thai's that always claim "Don't you know who I am"

 

Yes we all know who you are, you love Thailand, but you tell to many stories short of any facts. This is by your own admission.

 

I would bet, the number of expat millionaires in Thailand is probably 1%.

 

Broke retirees refers to people that did not plan adequately for retirement and live in Thailand because they simply CANNOT afford to live in their own country. Many of this forum claim to be surviving on < 40,000 baht a month. Teachers surviving on 20 - 30,000 a month. I will call that broke by most standards.

 

There are enough stories on this forum to understand the many sex mongers that moved to Thailand to get 20 year old girls when they are 70 years old.

 

Before you do anymore name calling, perhaps you should understand the facts and the way the real Thailand is, not the wonderful fantasy you talk yourself into (knowing all the millionaires, yaddha, yaddha, yaddha, while claiming you couldn't even live in your country without a million dollars a year.

 

A gross generalization is when you talk yourself up knowing millionaires, when you are clearly not one, escaped to Thailand because you could not afford your own country, by your own admission, and claiming because you know people, all of Thailand works that way. Delusional at best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 11/12/2020 at 3:56 AM, spidermike007 said:

Same applies to the domestic market. There are alot of wealthy Thais here. Other than cars, I doubt they buy any luxury items here. When you own population goes abroad to shop, you know you have been selecting ministers from the bottom of the barrel, for way, way too long!

 

Same applies to wine. (...)
Most wealthy people tend to be smart with their money. They simply will not pay stupid money for stuff.(...)

 

Sure, the neighboring countries are benefitting from all of the mistakes Thailand is making. But, they are also trying much harder, and are far smarter with their policies. They deserve the gains.

These are simply more examples of brain dead leaders, who have no vision, and are NOT leading the nation forward, are not helping the nation to progress, and are not benefitting the people of Thailand.

 

Those are all excellent points.Global upper middle-class tend to prefer wine over beer, certainly for dinner. And the wine industry is abysmal in Thailand. 

 

People who go on and on about the Chinese spending more, having the largest middle class in the world etc etc. clearly haven't looked at the numbers. The actual middle class - as defined as having sufficient purchasing power to regularly consume global goods and services (including self-organised international travel) - is smaller than 100M Chinese. The developed world still encompasses the vast majority of affluent people who drive global rather than local consumption. 

 

So yes, you still need all these Europeans, Americans, Japanese and Koreans to fill 4* and 5* hotels, restaurants and wine bars. But luxury import taxes make Thailand a lot less attractive for that crucial demographic than possible. I disagree that "high-quality" tourists wouldn't come in higher numbers to Thailand, but some things definitely have to change. The restaurant scene in Bangkok for example is top notch, there are excellent hotels, cultural and culinary experiences, good weather, ever improving marina facilities... 

 

So little wonder tourist arrival numbers have increased while spending per visitor seems to have decreased (?). 

Edited by chinasimon
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On 11/13/2020 at 11:02 AM, spidermike007 said:

 

Your statement about desperate sex mongers, and broke retirees being the bulk of what is here, is beyond ignorant, based on little to nothing in the way of knowledge, or facts, and is nothing more than a hostile trope. I know several guys living here who are millionaires, several times over. I know many guys who have pensions well in excess of 100,000 baht a month. I would never refer to that as desperate, or broke. I know guys here who own alot of land, houses, condos, nice cars or trucks, and have many overseas investments. Many are family men, and are total boy scouts. A gross generalization like the one you made is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

I do agree that Thailand is not moving forward. On that point we agree. 

Lucky for those on massive pensions and all good fortune to you and others but the vast majority are indeed very good family men and do not even get 50k a month.
I would imagine that most have no where near the figure you quoted and yes happy with my property but do the best we can for our families and that is all one do and yes many have fast diminishing savings a a frozen state pension. Just saying!!!

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On 11/13/2020 at 4:02 AM, spidermike007 said:

 

Your statement about desperate sex mongers, and broke retirees being the bulk of what is here, is beyond ignorant, based on little to nothing in the way of knowledge, or facts, and is nothing more than a hostile trope. I know several guys living here who are millionaires, several times over. I know many guys who have pensions well in excess of 100,000 baht a month. I would never refer to that as desperate, or broke. I know guys here who own alot of land, houses, condos, nice cars or trucks, and have many overseas investments. Many are family men, and are total boy scouts. A gross generalization like the one you made is juvenile, dumb, poorly conceived, woefully inaccurate, and ill informed. 

 

I do agree that Thailand is not moving forward. On that point we agree. 

You do seem to like telling everyone what a high standard of living you have and how many millionaires you know. Most of us don't give a toss how much money someone has.

 

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