SURVEY: Death penalty--appropriate or just plain wrong?

[jvs]

13 minutes ago, lungbing said:

"There are no instances of a convicted killer killing again."

There are a number of convicted killers being executed and later they were found innocent.

How do you deal with that?

[robblok]

23 minutes ago, herfiehandbag said:

Never understood that, there is a very distinct difference between firing a blank (no recoil) and a live round so the shooter would know. What is more, it is very obvious to anyone watching which weapon(s) is firing blanks

Not to mention the fact that shooting is inaccurate it could prolong suffering. Your points are also totally valid. 

[uncle_tom]

It's an imperfect world, and wasting resources imprisoning someone who has shown no regard for the sanctity of human life is pointless.

 

As to method, there is a very simple and inexpensive way that never seems to get a mention, that will also not traumatise those who do the honours.

 

Construct a cell as a sealed room, with ventilation via inlet and outlet grills. At the appointed time, preferably when the prisoner is asleep, substitute pure nitrogen in place of air at the inlet grill. This will slowly flush the air out of the cell and the oxygen level will drop. If not already asleep, the prisoner will pass out due to oxygen deprivation and subsequently die, but as it is completely odourless and does not provoke a reaction in the body, there will be no distressing effects.

 

As the gas is not poisonous in itself (air is 80% nitrogen) the cell can be flushed with air and the body removed.

[OneMoreFarang]

For real bad crimes I support the death penalty.

But when I think about those two guys from Burma who were convicted of murdering the tourist...

 

[scubascuba3]

Maybe bring back hanging, at least you die with an erection

[robblok]

11 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

For real bad crimes I support the death penalty.

But when I think about those two guys from Burma who were convicted of murdering the tourist...

 

I think many people would be pro death penalty if there was a way to make sure innocent people dont get executed. I am pro but only when there is so much evidence and perhaps video evidence to make sure its 100% sure the person was guilty and the crime was really bad.

 

But the way it is now no then I am against it. Too many false convictions all over the world. The US has many too

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

[Lacessit]

There are multiple examples of innocent people being executed. Timothy Evans being framed by John Christie is just one.

There are people who are just plain evil, and will be a danger to society as long as they live. Perhaps those should be executed after a higher standard of proof is employed.

 

[Lacessit]

5 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Maybe bring back hanging, at least you die with an erection

What's the point of having an erection if there is nowhere to put it? That's like having a golf course with no greens to putt out on.

[Susco]

5 hours ago, Techno Viking said:

Personally I feel a bullet is too quick, some slow would be the go.... like  tied down to an ants nest.

 

topic is not about how the execution is performed

[Susco]

18 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

For real bad crimes I support the death penalty.

But when I think about those two guys from Burma who were convicted of murdering the tourist...

 

 

I guess you were involved in the investigation..............from your comfortable armchair that is

[Techno Viking]

5 minutes ago, Susco said:

 

topic is not about how the execution is performed

 

[Susco]

1 minute ago, Techno Viking said:

 

 

 

Sorry Don

[GroveHillWanderer]

I lived in the UK during the IRA bombing campaign of the 1970's.

 

I still remember people calling for the return of the death penalty for the Birmingham six and the Guildford four.

 

15 years later it was revealed that they were completely innocent, they were released and given massive compensation (at least, those that hadn't died behind bars).

 

If the death penalty had been in place there is little doubt that 10 totally innocent people would have been put to death.

 

The family of Timothy Evans (who was executed for two of the Rillington Place murders committed by serial killer John Christie) might also have something to say.

Edited November 23, 2020 by GroveHillWanderer

[ivor bigun]

3 hours ago, millymoopoo said:

Absolutely no one has the right to take another oness life, without exception.!

In the same way no one has the right to force another to take up arms..!

Basic human rights.....!

Sure, lock them up for life if need be....!

 Why should the taxpayer pay out massive amounts of cash to keep the likes of the Yorkshire Ripper ,living in comfort in a nice cell with tv ,books etc etc ,if no death sentence ,then work hard 8 hours a day then locked up in a cell with no comforts , sorry if i am no bleeding heart liberal , 

[Bluedan]

5 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

 Why should the taxpayer pay out massive amounts of cash to keep the likes of the Yorkshire Ripper ,living in comfort in a nice cell with tv ,books etc etc ,if no death sentence ,then work hard 8 hours a day then locked up in a cell with no comforts , sorry if i am no bleeding heart liberal , 

If the question is one of economics sure I see your objection...for some its a question of morals not tax payer money 

regarding jails no matter how luxurious its the loss of freedom which is the main punishment. As a former lawyer I visited many jails and even one hour there as a visitor I just had to get out it was a uniquely terrible feeling

I respect your right to voice an opinion on this but Im tired of hearing that phrase "bleeding heart" which to me means one with compassion and empathy not really such bad traits for a human being to have  

[johnnybangkok]

36 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I lived in the UK during the IRA bombing campaign of the 1970's.

 

I still remember people calling for the return of the death penalty for the Birmingham six and the Guildford four.

 

15 years later it was revealed that they were completely innocent, were released and given massive compensation (at least, those that hadn't died behind bars).

 

If the death penalty had been in place there is no doubt that 10 totally innocent people would have been put to death.

 

The family of Timothy Evans (who was executed for two of the Rillington Place murders committed by serial killer John Christie) might also have something to say.

Exactly.

The death penalty is wrong for many reasons:-

 

1. It doesn't work. Many, many scientific studies prove that the death penalty does not deter people from committing henious crimes https://www.amnestyusa.org/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that-the-death-penalty-does-not-deter/

2. Many, many people previously executed have been subsequently proven innocent. Scientific advances have exhonorated many after the fact.

3. There's too much emotion invloved in the decision; a child being murdered for example will always illicit an extreme reaction which in turn can prejudice a jury.

4. Politics play far too much a part in the decision (see Birningham 6, Guildford 4, Kho Tao muders).

5. What's illegal changes too often. Is it right to be executed for being a drug dealer when most of the world is now coming round to the idea that prohabition didn't/doesn't work and many countries are legalising certain drug usage?

6. Too many countries use religion as a reason for executing people. For example, Pakistan and it's blasphemy laws.

7. The whole idea of prison is supposed to be rehabilitation. Not much rehabilitation when they're dead.

8. Most murderes have some form of mental illness https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/are-all-murderers-mentally-ill/67295/. Mentally ill people shouild not be executed.

9. A disproportionate number of ethnic and lower income individuals get executed.

10.  The idea of execution for some crimes but not others is too selective, for example someone kills a family in a frenzied knife attack V someone kills a family whilst being blind drunk behind the wheel. After all, a family is still dead in both examples.

 

State sponsored murder (because that is what it is) can never be justified as it's not justice, it's revenge. If you want to stop someone from repeating a crime then there's plenty of other options available other than putting them to death; life with no parole, castration, solitary confinement, 'throw away the key' options if you please. But murder as punishment for murder can not be the solution. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by johnnybangkok

[KhunFred]

When a criminal faces a punishment of drifting off into a peaceful sleep after committing murder, rape or pedophilia, I would say that the punishment did not really fit the crime. Capital punishment is no longer a thing to be feared.

[Bluedan]

21 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

Exactly.

The death penalty is wrong for many reasons:-

 

1. It doesn't work. Many, many scientific studies prove that the death penalty does not deter people from committing henious crimes https://www.amnestyusa.org/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that-the-death-penalty-does-not-deter/

2. Many, many people previously executed have been subsequently proven innocent. Scientific advances have exhonorated many after the fact.

3. There's too much emotion invloved in the decision; a child being murdered for example will always illicit an extreme reaction which in turn can prejudice a jury.

4. Politics play far too much a part in the decision (see Birningham 6, Guildford 4, Kho Tao muders).

5. What's illegal changes too often. Is it right to be executed for being a drug dealer when most of the world is now coming round to the idea that prohabition didn't/doesn't work and many countries are legalising certain drug usage?

6. Too many countries use religion as a reason for executing people. For example, Pakistan and it's blasphemy laws.

7. The whole idea of prison is supposed to be rehabilitation. Not much rehabilitation when they're dead.

8. Most murderes have some form of mental illness https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/are-all-murderers-mentally-ill/67295/. Mentally ill people shouild not be executed.

9. A disproportionate number of ethnic and lower income individuals get executed.

10.  The idea of execution for some crimes but not others is too selective, for example someone kills a family in a frenzied knife attack V someone kills a family whilst being blind drunk behind the wheel. After all, a family is still dead in both examples.

 

State sponsored murder (because that is what it is) can never be justified as it's not justice, it's revenge. If you want to stop someone from repeating a crime then there's plenty of other options available other than putting them to death; life with no parole, castration, solitary confinement, 'throw away the key' options if you please. But murder as punishment for murder can not be the solution. 

I think thats an excellent post and summary 

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Lacessit said:

What's the point of having an erection if there is nowhere to put it? That's like having a golf course with no greens to putt out on.

Or greens with nowhere to sink the ball. 

[bbbbooboo]

Hmmmmm.......Capital punishment certainly stops repetition of crime......?

[Artisi]

1 minute ago, Bluedan said:

I think thats an excellent post and summary 

It might not deter other people from crime, although the one executed is rightfully permanently deterred. 

[Bluedan]

36 minutes ago, Artisi said:

It might not deter other people from crime, although the one executed is rightfully permanently deterred. 

or in some case permanently wronged i.e. wrongfully executed...I guess just a minor detail 

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, Susco said:

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

For real bad crimes I support the death penalty.

But when I think about those two guys from Burma who were convicted of murdering the tourist...

 

 

I guess you were involved in the investigation..............from your comfortable armchair that is

Do you know about the murder case against the two Burmese guys in Thailand?

They were convicted in a Thai court. But from all the articles which I read in newspapers the evidence was far away from conclusive.

I don't know if they are guilty. But I think it's pretty obvious that (at least) maybe they are not guilty. 

And in that case I am definitely against the death penalty.

 

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, abrahamzvi said:

I am sorry I am unable to agree. Although removing those who have committed most heinous crimes would protect society, this inhumane method of executing human beings is absolutely wrong. It is no more than legal murder. Is stealing from a thief legal? The same principle applies here. Is it legal to kill a murderer? NO! 

 

And thats why the debate rages on. 

 

On one hand we have people who have proven themselves sub-human and not fit to be part of society and are a continued risk to society and other humans when they are locked up and eventually let out. 

 

On the other hand we are supposed to be a civilised society whereby our choices should be better, more honourable, beyond reproach.

 

Unfortunately, dealing with those who have proven themselves sub-human has both a financial cost or an emotional and moral cost. 

 

One thing I am sure of: I want to ensure those who have proven themselves sub-human never cross paths with my children, family and anyone I care about - for these purposes alone tough decisions need to me made.

 

 

The same can be said of going to war and of those who operate in the darkness on the fringes of morality to protect our counties and civilisation - tough decisions and actions need to continue to be taken so we don’t have to. 

 

There is no perfect world, there is no perfect right and wrong answer to this question. There is a grey area and while taking the moral high ground is all well and good, it doesn’t actually handle the specific issue at hand. 

 

Some people are not fit for humanity, locking them up for the remainder of their life is also inhumane and costly. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by richard_smith237

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

Exactly.

The death penalty is wrong for many reasons:-

 

1. It doesn't work. Many, many scientific studies prove that the death penalty does not deter people from committing henious crimes https://www.amnestyusa.org/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that-the-death-penalty-does-not-deter/

2. Many, many people previously executed have been subsequently proven innocent. Scientific advances have exhonorated many after the fact.

3. There's too much emotion invloved in the decision; a child being murdered for example will always illicit an extreme reaction which in turn can prejudice a jury.

4. Politics play far too much a part in the decision (see Birningham 6, Guildford 4, Kho Tao muders).

5. What's illegal changes too often. Is it right to be executed for being a drug dealer when most of the world is now coming round to the idea that prohabition didn't/doesn't work and many countries are legalising certain drug usage?

6. Too many countries use religion as a reason for executing people. For example, Pakistan and it's blasphemy laws.

7. The whole idea of prison is supposed to be rehabilitation. Not much rehabilitation when they're dead.

8. Most murderes have some form of mental illness https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/12/are-all-murderers-mentally-ill/67295/. Mentally ill people shouild not be executed.

9. A disproportionate number of ethnic and lower income individuals get executed.

10.  The idea of execution for some crimes but not others is too selective, for example someone kills a family in a frenzied knife attack V someone kills a family whilst being blind drunk behind the wheel. After all, a family is still dead in both examples.

 

State sponsored murder (because that is what it is) can never be justified as it's not justice, it's revenge. If you want to stop someone from repeating a crime then there's plenty of other options available other than putting them to death; life with no parole, castration, solitary confinement, 'throw away the key' options if you please. But murder as punishment for murder can not be the solution. 

 

I think thats an excellent well thought out response and handles many of the issues at hand - particularly the ‘emotional’ and ‘political’ pressures which accompany such issues. 

 

That said: In area’s where there is no doubt, where evidence is unequivocal... so I’m not considering drug dealers being sentenced with death penalty, I’m not considering a DUI driver who caused a death being sentenced with the death penalty, in areas were evidence is circumstantial, or in areas where a fight breaks out and someone is killed... I’m considering situations where the crime is committed by legal adults, is so abhorrent, pre-planed and innocents are killed - 

 

i.e. situations where a guy walks into a shopping mall or a school with a gun and kills 20 people, where the video evidence is clear, where the crime is thought out and planned - where the person is wholly unfit ever to be part of society. 

 

This is not as a deterrent for others who may also commit such crimes. As posted above, jail and death penalties are proven not to be an effective deterrent, but in protecting the rest of society form this sub-human mind from ever crossing paths with innocent people again. Protecting other prison in-mates from being exposed to such horrific minds and placing their lives at risk. 

 

If someone is a proven (without any doubt) cold blooded killer - they have no place in humanity. 

[chickenslegs]

I am, generally, against the death penalty - although some cases are so despicable that I am often tempted to join the cries for retribution (not just murder cases, but some rapes and other assaults).

However, I do believe that a life sentence should mean "life".

In Thailand (and other countries) a life sentence can mean 15 years, or even less. Maximum sentence is 20 years.

Quote

Thailand Criminal Code:

Chapter 1: Offence Causing Death

Section 288. Murder

 

Whoever, murdering the other person, shall be punished by death or imprisoned as from fifteen years to twenty years.

 

[richard_smith237]

4 minutes ago, chickenslegs said:

I am, generally, against the death penalty - although some cases are so despicable that I am often tempted to join the cries for retribution (not just murder cases, but some rapes and other assaults).

However, I do believe that a life sentence should mean "life".

In Thailand (and other countries) a life sentence can mean 15 years, or even less. Maximum sentence is 20 years.

 

I agree - Life should = Life

 

Those unequivocally proven of clear cut, aggressive and violent rape should face chemical castration. 

[The Fugitive]

Since Victorian era it has been known that it is the certainty of being caught that is the deterrent not the severity of the sentence. However, in the case of say a career criminal who uses the threat of violence and carries a cosh, I believe he would be deterred from escalating to carrying a firearm if he knew he could end up being hanged.

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, Bluedan said:

or in some case permanently wronged i.e. wrongfully executed...I guess just a minor detail 

No it's not a minor detail in a very clear case of guilt, for example the railway guard a few years back who raped, murdered and threw a young girl off the train, does that constitute a minor detail. 

Everyday there are many cases where the guilty are guilty - look at today's news of the guy finally arrested for a murder a few years back at the request of the deceaseds wife - clear cut, no impediment - I guess another minor detail. 

[baansgr]

You only need watch the hanging of Saddam because of Blair and Bush to see it's totally wrong