Maximum distance between poles?

[Sakeopete]

Today we were at PEA applying for a temp meter for construction. From the metered pole to where we plan to build is about 75m. Is there a standard distance between poles for stringing wire? PEA said the distance is up to me.

Plan on having 30 amp meter upon house completion is that suitable for running a residential home with several AC units and occasional welding in a workshop?  

 

Thanks

[RichCor]

I believe I read 100m suggested max somewhere for LV (Low Voltage 220-230VAC domestic service). Our service pole is 3 meters from the house then 60 meters to the next pole.

 

You may want to take in into consideration

The type of conductor used

The maximum permissible tension on the conductor.

The maximum conductor sag

Environmental parameters (wind load, impact of weather, vegetation growth/impingement)

Secondary use of poles: stringing copper or fiber for Internet, WAT or Headman speaker cables

 

 

[Crossy]

Our poles are 22m apart, mainly because the distance from road to house is 44m (we have 3 poles due to the route taken down the edge of the property). Looking at the sag between poles I would say 30-35m would be the limit for self-supporting wires.

 

For 75m I'd be looking at 4 poles:- 

<street> 25m <pole> 25m <pole> 25m <house>

of course direction changes need a pole too, so sketch out how you intend routing your supply then put poles in sensible places.

 

Probably best to consult your pole contractor, ours were put in by PEA chaps moonlighting.

 

Your 30/100 meter (22kW) should be adequate for a reasonable large home. We get along just fine on a 15/45 (including welding). Have PEA said they can provide a 30/100?

 

Best to do a rough and ready load calculation, is 3-phase available at the road?

[mahjongguy]

9 hours ago, Sakeopete said:

Plan on having 30 amp meter upon house completion is that suitable for running a residential home with several AC units and occasional welding in a workshop? 

 

Did you mean to say 15/45 ?

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, mahjongguy said:

Did you mean to say 15/45 ?

 

I assumed he meant 30/100 which are not always available. Hence my suggestion to do a load estimate.

[farmerjo]

30 metres apart is what i ran taking out the need for extra support cables for poles on the bends.

[Sakeopete]

2 hours ago, mahjongguy said:

 

Did you mean to say 15/45 ?

Honestly I know little about electrical. However when we applied for the temporary meter they asked if we wanted 15 or 30 amp. She said most people get 15 amp for construction purposes which makes sense.

[Sakeopete]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

 

I assumed he meant 30/100 which are not always available. Hence my suggestion to do a load estimate.

How do I do a load estimate? I know we will have 5 AC but not running at the same time, fridge, freezer, 3 PC's and a couple of ceiling fans. No pool but a garage with occasional power tools and low amp welding.

I will ask PEA if 3 phase is available.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Sakeopete

[Crossy]

26 minutes ago, Sakeopete said:

How do I do a load estimate? I know we will have 5 AC but not running at the same time, fridge, freezer, 3 PC's and a couple of ceiling fans. No pool but a garage with occasional power tools and low amp welding.

I will ask PEA if 3 phase is available.

 

I can do it for you no problem, I can make some assumptions but we can get a ball-park idea.

 

Do you envisage on-demand water heaters? How many? How big (do you like volcanic showers at Niagra flow rates)?

How about cooking? Electric oven and/or hob (cooktop)?

Water supply - well pump?

 

I'll assume low-energy lighting.

 

A house floor plan would be handy to size the A/Cs.

 

Any plans for solar? Backup generator? It's much easier to design these in at this stage even if you don't implement immediately.

[Sakeopete]

8 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

I can do it for you no problem, I can make some assumptions but we can get a ball-park idea.

 

Do you envisage on-demand water heaters? How many? How big (do you like volcanic showers at Niagra flow rates)?

How about cooking? Electric oven and/or hob (cooktop)?

Water supply - well pump?

 

I'll assume low-energy lighting.

 

A house floor plan would be handy to size the A/Cs.

 

Any plans for solar? Backup generator? It's much easier to design these in at this stage even if you don't implement immediately.

Wow you make some good assumptions I didn't think to add.

Do you envisage on-demand water heaters? How many? Yes 4

How big (do you like volcanic showers at Niagara flow rates)? Volcanic yes flow rate low to save water. 4000 watt

There will be electric oven but stove will be gas.

The 3 bedrooms and Multipurpose Room will have 12 000 BTU AC Inverter Type. However I will try and make this house very well insulated. The living room Is large and we may use fans only the kids and I tend to spend time in our rooms/office or outside.

No backup generator planned but I was thinking about solar. I'm still not clear if it is worth it or the legality, there seems to be a lot of debate surrounding solar.

Thanks for your help.

 

House Design.pdf

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Sakeopete said:

Honestly I know little about electrical. However when we applied for the temporary meter they asked if we wanted 15 or 30 amp. She said most people get 15 amp for construction purposes which makes sense.

The meter you should ask for rather depends on the final supply you want as if you are going to use a 30/100 supply then a temporary meter that size will not need to be changed when you on to the permanent tariff.

[sometimewoodworker]

9 minutes ago, Sakeopete said:

Volcanic yes flow rate low to save water. 4000 watt

You will not get Volcanic temperatures for about 3+ months with a 4,000 watt unit, you will need 6,500 W or higher, unless you are getting 25+ Cold water year round 

Edited November 27, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[Crossy]

45 minutes ago, Sakeopete said:

Wow you make some good assumptions I didn't think to add.

 

It's what we do ???? 

 

Anyway, I'll get back on this later, I just got a large stack of cable test results to look at (fibre, UTP and power) looking at which actually pays the bills ???? 

 

[Sakeopete]

51 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

You will not get Volcanic temperatures for about 3+ months with a 4,000 watt unit, you will need 6,500 W or higher, unless you are getting 25+ Cold water year round 

We have a 4000 watt unit now and it get very hot if the tap isn't opened all the way. Otherwise my kids will stay in the shower until the storage tank runs dry.

[Crossy]

25 minutes ago, Sakeopete said:

We have a 4000 watt unit now and it get very hot if the tap isn't opened all the way. Otherwise my kids will stay in the shower until the storage tank runs dry.

 

If you are happy with the current unit and you are in the same area great.

Let's not get into the "my heater is bigger than yours" discussion again.

 

No kids, but we have grandkids to stay, when they do the power bill doubles with loooong showers and aircon usage.

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

1 hour ago, Sakeopete said:

The 3 bedrooms and Multipurpose Room will have 12 000 BTU AC Inverter Type.

IMO, those rooms wouldn't need more than 9-11K BTU and the "inverter" would be running at 1/2 of that most of the time anyway.

[Sakeopete]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The meter you should ask for rather depends on the final supply you want as if you are going to use a 30/100 supply then a temporary meter that size will not need to be changed when you on to the permanent tariff.

I just asked my wife about this, she replied that PEA told her they only have 15 amp temp meters available ATM  but if we want the 30 amp we can get that for the residential meter when construction is done.

[Sakeopete]

6 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

IMO, those rooms wouldn't need more than 9-11K BTU and the "inverter" would be running at 1/2 of that most of the time anyway.

There are several BTU calculators online that I tried. Some gave me a figure of 7k BTU others said 14k BTU. They ask the same parameters, very strange.

The price is not very different between a 9 k and 12 k BTU. Will the larger 12K use more energy or just cool faster? Thinking on the lines of burning calories, walking 5 kms and running 5 kms burns the same amount of calories, running just gets you there faster (and cardio).

[sometimewoodworker]

39 minutes ago, Sakeopete said:

We have a 4000 watt unit now and it get very hot if the tap isn't opened all the way. Otherwise my kids will stay in the shower until the storage tank runs dry.

Storage tank heaters are very different as they have plenty of time to heat the water,  however instant heaters have to be significantly bigger to get the same temperature but use less power overall as while it maybe double the posits used for much less than half the time.

 

So you can’t compare the 2.

[Crossy]

Here we go with a VERY quick and dirty load calculation.

 

Assume A/C load 3 x 12000 BTU at once (or possibly 2 x 18000 BTU in the lounge) = 18A

Assume 2 x 4500W water heaters at once = 40A (short time load - I'm assuming on-demand heaters).

 

So with all the little loads we're looking at peak loading of 60A ish.

 

30/100 meter would be very fine if available, in reality a 15/45 (with a 50A incoming breaker) would also be fine.

 

No need for 3-phase at this time even if you can only get a 15/45 (swap the incomer for 63A once inspection passed).

 

 

Your cable from the street to the house needs to be 16mm² copper or 25mm² aluminium for a 15/45 or 50mm² copper or 70mm² aluminium for the 30/100 to avoid volt-drop issues. The larger cables likely won't fit the meter or distribution board so your sparks will need to splice 16mm² pigtails on to each end.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

3 minutes ago, Sakeopete said:

There are several BTU calculators online that I tried. Some gave me a figure of 7k BTU others said 14k BTU. They ask the same parameters, very strange.

The price is not very different between a 9 k and 12 k BTU. Will the larger 12K use more energy or just cool faster? Thinking on the lines of burning calories, walking 5 kms and running 5 kms burns the same amount of calories, running just gets you there faster (and cardio).

With the advent of inverter AC units the huge disadvantages of oversized units has become much less important. 
 

With a conventional unit oversizing is a very bad idea as there’s not enough run time to dehumidify before the cooling shuts off.
 

I haven’t seen good studies on the details of the exact way inverter units function so don’t know if the dehumidification still runs as the fans slow down.

 

I have found that even with minimum insulation 550BTU per square meter with a conventional AC and about 2.5 metre ceilings is enough. Others will want “sweater temperatures” so will need 800BTU SQ/M

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Others will want “sweater temperatures” so will need 800BTU SQ/M

 

Yeah, arctic aircon, volcanic hot water ???? 

[bankruatsteve]

1 hour ago, Sakeopete said:

The price is not very different between a 9 k and 12 k BTU. Will the larger 12K use more energy or just cool faster? Thinking on the lines of burning calories, walking 5 kms and running 5 kms burns the same amount of calories, running just gets you there faster (and cardio).

There is probably not much difference between 9k and 12k "inverter" except price.  They will both normally run between 400-600 W. except on the hottest days.  The only time my 11k BTU Daikin runs at full bore is when I put on "Super Cool".  

 

BTW:  Walking fast or slow for the same distance will burn the same calories.  Running will be roughly double.

Edited November 27, 2020 by bankruatsteve

[Yellowtail]

6 hours ago, Sakeopete said:

We have a 4000 watt unit now and it get very hot if the tap isn't opened all the way. Otherwise my kids will stay in the shower until the storage tank runs dry.

 

Just turn off the breaker, that will bet them out. Been there, done that....

[kamalabob2]

"It's only temporary" can be a dangerous and costly phrase. I have seen many folks use local logic on what size "temporary meter" and worse, "what side cable from the PEA supply to their temporary meter".  I won't comment on metal poles.  I have seen half a dozen water pump motors ruined by voltage drop where folks realized they needed water to build a house. They thought to drill a well. Buy a cheap pump, but not have proper protection for the pump. Especially submersible well pumps with no proper control box.  Not just the standard "included" control box. The building team uses a welder, a few tools, an electric concrete mixer and the draw is too great on the WRONG undersized "It's only temporary" cable.  The pump motor is shot. There was low voltage arriving at the construction site due to undersized cable from the PEA supply. Costly mistake in my book, when so easy to avoid. The PEA office has charts showing MINIMUM size copper cable and MINIMUM size showing aluminum cable for service form the PEA connection to the home meter. Then the consumer should calculate the size of the cable form the METER to the load center, even if only a temporary construction meter and temporary electric socket job site box. Undersized electric cable can be a costly mistake in my observation.