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Maizefarmer

The 1(1)th Commandment

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As you say FarmerDave, she never took anything you did not willingly give her, and as you could not give her the long term security that she craves, she will go to Pattaya to seek another man who can.

If you really do think the world of her, let her go to find the long term security that you as a married man cannot give her.

Wish her luck.

Very Good post - been there, done that and got the t-shirt

Not married myself to anyone else but was not prepared to commit as much as the other would have wanted!

I just do not think I will ever accept the whole Asian way - family all share etc - Took me well over a decade to realise this though.

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As you say FarmerDave, she never took anything you did not willingly give her, and as you could not give her the long term security that she craves, she will go to Pattaya to seek another man who can.

If you really do think the world of her, let her go to find the long term security that you as a married man cannot give her.

Wish her luck.

Very Good post - been there, done that and got the t-shirt

Not married myself to anyone else but was not prepared to commit as much as the other would have wanted!

I just do not think I will ever accept the whole Asian way - family all share etc - Took me well over a decade to realise this though.

I don't recall saying that I wasn't prepared to commit, just that as I've only known her 6 months and actually spent 24 days with her, to commit to anything at this stage would be a bit soon . (so was stumping up for the land etc, but there we go!) I agree with above that it is this "family Share" thing that gives me greater reservations. She openly admitted that "Father, he think i have big money, he want land, motorbike, buy house" then held her hands up in desperation. Family pressure can surely only add complications to a relationship, and I honestly don't know to what degree this is the Norm. I went on to say that i already give money for land, 15k towards her motorbike, another 20k for the pond(???) and that i couldn't keep on handing over at this rate. Maybe thats what accelerated her departure. My Family wasn't an issue in January when i bought the land or sent money by Western Union. I think you could read the above as "Father think i can get big money from Falang". I'm not saying this as a dejected man (honestly), but don't a lot of these girls measure love by money bestowed on them. Someone told me on my last visit that you only see the true character of a Thai Lady when you say No. It may be that family pressure forced her to move on elsewhere, i did get a "I miss you" & an "I love you" text the day after leaving. (before the phone went dead)

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As you say FarmerDave, she never took anything you did not willingly give her, and as you could not give her the long term security that she craves, she will go to Pattaya to seek another man who can.

If you really do think the world of her, let her go to find the long term security that you as a married man cannot give her.

Wish her luck.

Very Good post - been there, done that and got the t-shirt

Not married myself to anyone else but was not prepared to commit as much as the other would have wanted!

I just do not think I will ever accept the whole Asian way - family all share etc - Took me well over a decade to realise this though.

I don't recall saying that I wasn't prepared to commit, just that as I've only known her 6 months and actually spent 24 days with her, to commit to anything at this stage would be a bit soon . (so was stumping up for the land etc, but there we go!) I agree with above that it is this "family Share" thing that gives me greater reservations. She openly admitted that "Father, he think i have big money, he want land, motorbike, buy house" then held her hands up in desperation. Family pressure can surely only add complications to a relationship, and I honestly don't know to what degree this is the Norm. I went on to say that i already give money for land, 15k towards her motorbike, another 20k for the pond(???) and that i couldn't keep on handing over at this rate. Maybe thats what accelerated her departure. My Family wasn't an issue in January when i bought the land or sent money by Western Union. I think you could read the above as "Father think i can get big money from Falang". I'm not saying this as a dejected man (honestly), but don't a lot of these girls measure love by money bestowed on them. Someone told me on my last visit that you only see the true character of a Thai Lady when you say No. It may be that family pressure forced her to move on elsewhere, i did get a "I miss you" & an "I love you" text the day after leaving. (before the phone went dead)

Not saying you would not commit - I can not commit to the to the whole "as you are part of the family what is your's is the family's" mentality that some of them have - not all but some of them

I have seen the pressure some girls get put under - I have seen nice guy's get shafted as the girl had to rush off to the bar - sometimes when they had never worked bar's before.

I have also seen girls who have never seen the inside of a bar get a lot of pressure and do not go to work the bar

All humanity is there!

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GH, you have the best stories, hands down!

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A topic ripe for controversy.

So Maizefarmer how about something more constructive, tell us about the thousands of other possibilities for making a living in Thailand.

... and the golden rule: only farm or get involved in agriculture in Thailand if that is what you want to do - there are a thousand other things to do here that can make a lot more money with a lot less work.

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Nope, it's an accurate statement, well explained and qualifed where need be. You've made it very clear what you didn't like, but that was very much a comparison with your experiance - which was not what I was writing about and doesn't tell me what was wrong with what I wrote....

Maizefarmer,

I see you are not exactly demonstrating a desire for this thread to die.

Now you are a statistician as well. Okay, from what factual evidence as opposed to anecdotal hearsay do you base your conclusions that a bar-girl behaves any differently from a Big C cashier (as an example)? From what factual evidence as opposed to anecdotal hearsay do you base your conclusions that my experience is a minority experience?

In apparent total contrast to your acquaintances in this situation, the vast majority of my acquaintances with Thai ex-bar-girl partners are in long term successful relationships with them. Those relationships all started out one day at a time.

As I have indicated before, it is foolish to throw money at anyone (business partner, girl/boy friend, or de-facto spouse) before trust is established...and yes, trust normally takes time. My argument is that this applies to all relationships and not at all any more so for relationships involving (ex-)bar-girls.

I believe that human nature being as it is, those with bad experiences of bar-girls are much more likely to be vocal on such forums as this than the silent majority who are happy getting on with their lives. Of course, the silent majority cannot back me up on this statement.

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A topic ripe for controversy.

So Maizefarmer how about something more constructive, tell us about the thousands of other possibilities for making a living in Thailand.

... and the golden rule: only farm or get involved in agriculture in Thailand if that is what you want to do - there are a thousand other things to do here that can make a lot more money with a lot less work.

I am all ears (or eyes in this case) too

MM

Edited by mosquitoman

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lets not decend into brawlling and references that will get the thread closed. I am finding itn wuite interesting, and there are 5 others reading it now so I can't be the only one...

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A topic ripe for controversy.

So Maizefarmer how about something more constructive, tell us about the thousands of other possibilities for making a living in Thailand.

... and the golden rule: only farm or get involved in agriculture in Thailand if that is what you want to do - there are a thousand other things to do here that can make a lot more money with a lot less work.

I am all ears (or eyes in this case) too

MM

Mozzieman - if you'd read the whole thread you'd see I was repeating what another forum member wrote (i.e. "only farm in Thailand if that is what you want to do.....").

Do something because you want to do it? - common sense I'd think - if you have the freedom to, your just want to live in Thailand,- only makes sense to do something that you want to do - and not something you feel pressuried into doing (for whatever reason).

MF

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Maizefarmer, the only thing I can grow successfully is a handsome rhubarb patch. That is the sum of my farming expertise - my speciality is observing people. As I see it the jump from Miss Straight to BG is a very small one and for every tricky good time girl there is a basically nice woman being relentlessly pressured by her family into a distasteful practice, i.e. to milch farangs, whatever it takes. I never look down on any working girl, regardless of the job she is doing because behind the majority is a retinue of lazy buggers begging, borrowing or stealing from them. BG. waitress or shop girl, remember this - LOS would be in a bad way if all women went on strike tomorrow; they're the indispensable productive backbone of that land. It's only the mistrust of this insidious practice of family pressure that has saved me several times from being suckered. I wonder how many other single men think the same.

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I've lived in England and the USA and have never met a love interest who has asked me to invest in anything more than condoms. and that was for our mutual benefit. an investment we would both see realised at the same time and hopefully with a fair share each.

Strangers that ask for sizable chunks of money come across to me as a bit silly, because who with smarts to accumulate a degree of wealth would be so easily parted from it?

Then my close friends remind me that there is one such fellow born every minute...

So here is the answer:

ATM Retinal Scan:

you go to the ATM and it reads your card and your pin. then it read your eye. if you pupil is diallated indicating that you are overly horny it says,

Dear Sir, you may only withdraw 1000 bht as your little head is overriding the big one and I am here to help stop you do something foolish. If you really want 20,000 bhat come into the branch in the morning and lets talk about it. If I can save you from an embarrassing mistake, I get to keep the interest on the sum saved for 3 months. If you are not about to fall into one of the many traps (disguised with hair and wiff of sea food) that patrol our fair streets at night I will humbly apologise and give you your money and the opportunity to date my daughter who is a good girl, graduating from Tamasart University in Molecular Biology and looking to study further at Northwestern University of Chicago.

Kop Khun Ka

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Nope, it's an accurate statement, well explained and qualifed where need be. You've made it very clear what you didn't like, but that was very much a comparison with your experiance - which was not what I was writing about and doesn't tell me what was wrong with what I wrote....

Maizefarmer,

I see you are not exactly demonstrating a desire for this thread to die.

Now you are a statistician as well. Okay, from what factual evidence as opposed to anecdotal hearsay do you base your conclusions that a bar-girl behaves any differently from a Big C cashier (as an example)? From what factual evidence as opposed to anecdotal hearsay do you base your conclusions that my experience is a minority experience?

In apparent total contrast to your acquaintances in this situation, the vast majority of my acquaintances with Thai ex-bar-girl partners are in long term successful relationships with them. Those relationships all started out one day at a time.

As I have indicated before, it is foolish to throw money at anyone (business partner, girl/boy friend, or de-facto spouse) before trust is established...and yes, trust normally takes time. My argument is that this applies to all relationships and not at all any more so for relationships involving (ex-)bar-girls.

I believe that human nature being as it is, those with bad experiences of bar-girls are much more likely to be vocal on such forums as this than the silent majority who are happy getting on with their lives. Of course, the silent majority cannot back me up on this statement.

Actually Khonwan - there are stat's. You were very quick earlier on in this thread to highlight something I wrote a long time back on a completly unrelated thread - and you used it in a somewhat below the belt manner to personalise and try and point a finger at me. Then you go on about my treatise", now you making an issue out of me replying to you each time you write something (I see you are not exactly demonstrating a desire for this thread to die), and trying to make an issue out of playing "statistician".

Not easy to engage in a conversation or debate with you - is it now. You are the one Khonwan who is been provactive (another title you tried to pin on me) - now pack it in - stick to the subject and take the suggestive and personal innuendo out of it.

But to answer your question - what evidance do I have:

My evidance is based on 2 things: having lived here a jolly long time, having seen I guess somewhere bewteen 12-16 ex-pats turn up in this area within a 10-15km radius of where I live (just off the edge of Phu Kradung NP) over the last 2 years or so - all with girlfriends who work in the bar business. Out of them off the top of my head about 10 or so considered staying on, about 2 or 3 purchased land, one purchased about 20 livestock, one started a resturant with his other half, and the rest had no intention of doing anything except sit in the sun. Out of all of them only 2 remain - one sells c/f trainers with his partner at the nightmarket and the other has a small pottery workshop. The rest are gone: the guy who purchased the livestock sold them all to me. They all moved on in 2 - 6 months or so.

By contrast, I rent 2 rooms in the house to visting researchers from various Uni's or wildlife organisations or come to to do research at Phu Kradung - and over about the last 5 years a Swiss and German guy have both established relationships that have stood the test of time. One partner has some or other admnin role with the park, and the other is a tourguide (for Thai's). Those are examples I can cite and re-call off the top of my head recently, but if I was bothered to sit down and make a list of those I can remember over the last 20 years - well, ...!!!

Now before you go off on a "tangent" making a point about the emphasize I put on the demographic group (i.e. girls background) - remember what I said: the other half of the equation is time the couple are involved in the relationship BEFORE any committements are made.

But in case my experaince is unique, or it's unique for this area (which I'm ###### sure it's not), there are actually Khonwan some stats on this subject - and I am suprized you don't know it - because like the comments I made last year on a totaly unrelated subject, which you recalled very accurately (but quite out of context), I also have written up those stats as I recalled them at the time. Chula (Department of Sociology I think - but I stand to be corrected on that) done research on this very subject, and on top of that a couple of foreign sociaologists have studied this very topic in a lot of detail - and the results have been published (and re-published time to time).

The results showed conclsuively the faliure in cross cultural relationships/marriages between Thai females who worked in the bright lights industry and ex-pat Westerners was significantly higher than it was between ex-pats and Thai females who had completed tertiary education and held down what are considered to be more conventional jobs.

That same research also showed that something like 75% - 80% of the relationships in the first group failed within about 12 months while the figure for the 2nd group was less than half that.

Very interestingly, the same research showed that if the relationships in the first group lasted more than a certain amount of time (I think it was something like 5 years) - then the chance of that relationship going on to last as long as the average Thai marriage was no different fro any other demographic group in Thailand.....

Thats the basic's of the research, it goes on into a whole load of related stat's (e.g. age group, region in Thailand, ex-pat partners age, nationality, length of time in Thailand, education level, maritial status back home ect ect ....). I am not going to go down the path of trying to quote all that because I simply do not re-call what all the fine detail was, other than it was crystal clear that most relationships bewteen expats and bargirl's lasted a matter of months, and that proportionaly relationships in this group on a ratio basis, were exponentiualy more likely to fail within a much shorter period of time than cross-cultural relationships bewteen ex-pats and Thai girls who held what are considered to be more conventional jobs.

So to answer your question in a proper manner, without needing to resort to ennuendo or trying to personalise it - yes, there are stats to support what I have said - exactly what they are I do not re-call off-hand, but if you wish to challenge me on the point, I'll be more than happy sometime over the next month or so to make an effort to find out exactly what the source of theose stats are - so that you can go and study them for yourself.

Now Khonwan - if you want me to take up and reply to anything you say on the subject, by all means - but I think you should keep on topic, on subject, and please do not drag me down with "labeling". That is been provocative - another lable to tried to put on me in one of your early posts.

MF

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Phu Kradung NP

I live in amphur Phu Kradung, I'll be back in about 5 weeks, send me a PM Maize and we'll have a few beers if you're up for it.

post-4007-1178648579_thumb.jpg

Edited by Maigo6

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Phu Kradung NP

I live in amphur Phu Kradung, I'll be back in about 5 weeks, send me a PM Maize and we'll have a few beers if you're up for it.

post-4007-1178648579_thumb.jpg

Maigo6

Will be good to c u, give me a couple days notice - and if you need somewhere to stay for a few nights (you, partner and and kids) - consider the door open, you're a welcome guest.

Have you climbed the mountain before??

I've done it 3 times in 20 years - Saturday and Sunday mornings in winter you get 100's of Thai tourists setting off to climb at about 4:00 - 4:30am - to get to the top for sunrise. It's a hel_l of a climb!

MF

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Maizefarmer

Comparing stats on those who completed tertiary education with those who did not (generally) finish secondary education is hardly equitable. The longer a relationship survives, the longer still it is likely to survive (just like mortality tables) is a statement of the obvious. Would a relationship with a shop worker have any greater chance of survival than that of the ex-bar girl? I think the answer might well be yes, marginally, down to the ex-bar girl's perception that she could do better, when a relationship starts to sour, by returning to her trade to find a new partner.

Look, you want to warn folks of the dangers of letting libido overrule the head before investing money in a relationship. My warning that allowing libido to overrule the head after commencement of that investment is equally valid. You put your misdemeanors on public record in this forum and now you complain when they are recalled and quoted.

The fact is, similar warnings have been made throughout the ages and are always acknowledged before and after guys allow libido to guide them. Nothing new here...nor will anything change.

Why ask if a guy would consider entering into commitments with a "hooker" he has only recently met in his home country? Should the question be any different were the the girl not a "hooker"? It is foolish to enter into a financial commitment with anyone before allowing time to evaluate the relationship (using the head as opposed to libido) regardless of that person's profession or general background. That is the simple crux of my argument that you seem unwilling to accept. You wish to single out bar girls, which implies that you think this advice applies more to them than to other potential partners.

Yes, I would be interested to read the statistical evidence you refer to. And I would then scrutinize it carefully to ascertain its methodology to determine its worth, its likely accuracy.

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