House impeaches Trump after U.S. Capitol siege; his fate in Senate hands

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

Impeachment is just a fancy word that means to bring a prosecution. A former president can still be tried for acts deemed criminal that were conducted during his presidency.

 

Impeachment is analogous to criminal indictment and the trial in the Senate is analogous to a court trial, but the Constitution clearly distinguished impeachment from criminal procedure.  For example, criminal punishments such as fines or imprisonment are not available in a Senate impeachment trial.  There is no court of appeal to the verdict.  There are basically no rules of evidence.  The Chief Justice of the SC presides, but any ruling that he makes can be overridden by a majority of the senator/jurors.

 

Trump can certainly be criminally prosecuted after Jan. 20 and we can have every hope that he will be, but he can only be impeached while holding office.

[Mama Noodle]

2 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

Study the law a bit.  Arrested doesn't mean you are guilty.  That's yet to be proven.  And project Veritas is a scam.  Sad you fall for it.  You've indicated you believe there's election fraud.  Sure, there's some, always is.  But not enough to impact the election.  Done and dusted.

 

That is exactly what I originally said. 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by onthedarkside
personal comment removed

[cmarshall]

2 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

Self-pardon cannot possibly hold up in court. It creates a monarch.

 

if it does, then---my reduce to the ridiculous argument---President Biden can call 45 to the WH and execute him, then just say 'pardon me'.

 

That is the argument a lawyer will make if self-pardon is adjudicated. Clearly no one should have that much power, so the idea of self-pardon is against everything the US ostensibly stands for.

 

Madison and Jefferson, if they had wanted a leader to have that much power, would have just used the Magna Carta as the US' founding document, but they specifically went about writing the Constitution and limited the power of any leader by constructing 3 separate branches with checks and balances against the others.

 

I hope 45 counts on self-pardon, because if he does it will fail and he will be subject to Federal charges.

 

If he self-pardons and if the Biden DoJ challenges the self-pardon with a federal indictment, it will ultimately be the Supreme Court that decides.  I agree that they will not sustain a self-pardon, but I'll bet you that the vote to reject it is not 9 to 0.

[Eric Loh]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Impeachment is just a fancy word that means to bring a prosecution. A former president can still be tried for acts deemed criminal that were conducted during his presidency.

Mitch will be happy to rid the monkey on his back and Trump's 2024 bid. As an added bonus, deprive him of all his post POTUS monetary benefits and security. 

[Mama Noodle]

2 minutes ago, robblok said:

The democrats won fair and square

 

Disagree. 

 

But the next Republican government has alot of latitude moving forward on how to attack the other party. 

 

This is the precedent thats been set, and will be used in the future. 

 

And Ill expect the same "fair and square" argument from the future losers. 

[Walker88]

2 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

That is exactly what I originally said. 

 

 

Chris Krebs, who was in charge of cyber security, and in effect election security, said the 2020 election was likely the fairest election ever. Yes, that is an opinion, but the facts bear that out.

 

Remember back in 2016 when 45 spuriously claimed 'millions of illegals voted'. Of course he just pulled that out of where the sun doesn't shine. He appointed Kobach to investigate, and after wasting a ton of Taxpayer money, Kobach found a total of, maybe, 3 votes NATIONWIDE that might have been cast illegally, and 2 of 3 went for 45.

 

In 2020, a court record of 1 and 69 says there is no credible evidence of fraud in that election either. The courts who slammed those frivolous lawsuits had presiding judges appointed by both Parties, including by 45.

 

45 lost. Badly. it is time his supporters accept reality. 45 is a loser, a twice impeached loser, and likely to be indicted for a host of crimes after 12:01PM next Wednesday.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

That is exactly what I originally said. 

 

Here's what you said:

 

Quote

 

The lady was arrested for voter fraud. Done and dusted. 

 

 

This is a completely different case. 

 

 

I'm guessing done and dusted means she's guilty and in jail.  She's not. 

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by onthedarkside
personal comment removed

[WaveHunter]

I, for one, am sick to death of all of this political BS surrounding Trump...on both sides (left and right).  Almost all of the politicians on both sides of the aisle are liars and historically have always been so (IMO).

 

News commentators are no better.  There is no such thing as true journalism anymore; only talking heads sharing their heavily biased views instead of just reporting the news, fairly and without bias.  Walter Cronkite is probably turning over in his grave!

 

What's really troubling is that instead of addressing the true and pressing concerns of the public, ALL of these politicians and mass media pundits seem utterly consumed in pushing their chosen party's political agendas over addressing the clear and present dangers associated with the pandemic and the economy. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by WaveHunter

[robblok]

13 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Disagree. 

 

But the next Republican government has alot of latitude moving forward on how to attack the other party. 

 

This is the precedent thats been set, and will be used in the future. 

 

And Ill expect the same "fair and square" argument from the future losers. 

Disagree based on what ? And it was Trump who was going like a mad dog after his enemies. I havent seen that in the Democrats at all. Trump even fired his own henchmen often if they did not worship him and agree with his lies.

 

The guy is a nutcase hard to see a worse president ever. 

[NanLaew]

3 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Trump can certainly be criminally prosecuted after Jan. 20 and we can have every hope that he will be, but he can only be impeached while holding office.

 

OK, he has just been indicted then.

 

...or rather when (or if) Pelosi sends the papers across the hall.

 

Regarding your claim of the unconstitutionality of impeaching a formed president, there is a precedent for "late impeachment". The intent is to prevent him running for office again. It's like spraying Baygon on a cockroach AND stamping on it.

 

I think the GOP has more to lose than angry Pelosi and the Dems in this instance. Apart from a handful of misguided Republican statesmen and women still carrying a candle for Trump, the party has already turned their backs on him but having him lurking around the corridors of power for another four years will undoubtedly split their vote.

 

He has amassed a war chest although he may have to use that to bolster his overstated personal business finances. Any IRS fines could also be a bit of a drain.

[newatthis]

12 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Disagree. 

 

But the next Republican government has alot of latitude moving forward on how to attack the other party. 

 

This is the precedent thats been set, and will be used in the future. 

 

And Ill expect the same "fair and square" argument from the future losers. 

I do hope Trump runs in 2024....it won't be as a GOP; he'll have to go Independent (The GOP won't have him again). That will split the Republican vote and Hallelujah, Praise the Lord keep them out of government

[Mama Noodle]

1 minute ago, robblok said:

I havent seen that in the Democrats at all.

 

This just shows the illogical disconnect. 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I, for one, am sick to death of all of this political BS surrounding Trump...on both sides (left and right).  Almost all of the politicians on both sides of the aisle are liars and historically have always been so (IMO).

 

What's really troubling is that instead of addressing the true and pressing concerns of the public, ALL of these politicians seem utterly consumed in pushing their party's political agendas over addressing the clear and present dangers associated with the pandemic and the economy. 

Enough with the fake both-sides nonsense. It's the Republicans who delayed and obstructed pandemic relief. In a few days, that obstructionism will be overcome.

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

I still dont "accept" that it was fair, or right, or that the playing field was in any way level. 

 

And it was a very narrow win in the presidency. Only a few 100k votes spread across 3 states and it took a huge, 4 year long campaign of attacks, a pandemic, government shutdowns without aid, a tech monopoly influencing readers, legacy media picking sides, and changing voting rules at the last minute just to squeak out this narrow win. (Nobody cares about popular vote) 

 

They got their very narrow senate majority, but they won't pass anything substantial because its so narrow. Plenty of red state dems careers on the line.  

 

My prediction going forward is that its only going to get worse. 

You're right, the playing field was far from level with Republican gerrymanders and exclusion of minorities in quite a few states. The Democrats had far more reason and evidence to mount legal challenges than Trump and the goose team ever did.

What tech monopoly.? AFAIK it was only after Trump started posting lies about a stolen election they started flagging his posts, and only after he incited insurrection they suspended him. IMO they were too slow to catch up. Fox News was picking Trump's side for four years and more.

You might say no-one cares about the popular vote, apparently there are 81 million Americans that disagree with you.

You may also be right about it getting worse, but that's only down to people with more bullets than brain cells.

There's a quote from Asimov's Foundation series which played out with Trump and his thugs during the assault on the Capitol. " Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent ". Equally appropriate is Dr Samuel Johnson's aphorism, " Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".

 

 

[Mama Noodle]

2 hours ago, newatthis said:

I do hope Trump runs in 2024....it won't be as a GOP; he'll have to go Independent (The GOP won't have him again). That will split the Republican vote and Hallelujah, Praise the Lord keep them out of government

 

Oh, dont you worry ... about Trump in the next election. Hes toast, and that reason has nothing to do with "the GOP" and everything to do with him being de-platformed. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by onthedarkside
personal comment removed

[Jeffr2]

6 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I, for one, am sick to death of all of this political BS surrounding Trump...on both sides (left and right).  Almost all of the politicians on both sides of the aisle are liars and historically have always been so (IMO).

 

What's really troubling is that instead of addressing the true and pressing concerns of the public, ALL of these politicians seem utterly consumed in pushing their party's political agendas over addressing the clear and present dangers associated with the pandemic and the economy. 

Sorry, but the hard core political BS was instigated by Trump, back by his enablers in congress and amplified by the fake news right wing media sites.

 

I'm no fan of politicians, but seems the dems are more interested in helping our citizens than the republicans.  Who only want to keep Trump happy.

 

The GOP is breaking apart.  Traditionalists on one side, conspiracy theorists and Trump supporters on the other.

[Dumbastheycome]

2 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Oh, dont you worry ... about Trump in the next election. Hes toast, and that reason has nothing to do with "the GOP" and everything to do with him being de-platformed. 

What? Are his elevated footware  to be repossessed too ?

[Jeffr2]

2 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Oh, dont you worry ... about Trump in the next election. Hes toast, and that reason has nothing to do with "the GOP" and everything to do with him being de-platformed. 

Everything to do with him instigating a riot where the Capitol building was breached for the first time in 250 years.  Thus, the impeachment.

 

Catch up!!!

[placeholder]

22 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Disagree. 

 

But the next Republican government has alot of latitude moving forward on how to attack the other party. 

 

This is the precedent thats been set, and will be used in the future. 

 

And Ill expect the same "fair and square" argument from the future losers. 

 

Yes. I remember well when Joe Biden led a movement that claimed that Trump wasn't eligible to be President because he was born outside of the USA to a foreign parent. Such an evil attack by Joe Biden. How could any decent American ever vote for him?

[newatthis]

2 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Oh, dont you worry ... about Trump in the next election. Hes toast, and that reason has nothing to do with "the GOP" and everything to do with him being de-platformed. 

Rubbish!  There's enough Alternative Media who will take up the slack for Trump. I look forward to hearing and reading their trash!

[Mama Noodle]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Yes. I remember well when Joe Biden led a movement that claimed that Trump wasn't eligible to be President because he was born outside of the USA to a foreign parent. Such an evil attack by Joe Biden. How could any decent American ever vote for him?

 

 

Fair and square though, right? 

 

Its just politics. 

 

Votes and opinion. 

 

Etc. 

 

 

[Mama Noodle]

Just now, newatthis said:

Rubbish!  There's enough Alternative Media who will take up the slack for Trump. I look forward to hearing and reading their trash!

 

I disregard anyones opinion when it leads with "Rubbish" 

[WaveHunter]

15 minutes ago, placeholder said:

 

Yes. I remember well when Joe Biden led a movement that claimed that Trump wasn't eligible to be President because he was born outside of the USA to a foreign parent. Such an evil attack by Joe Biden. How could any decent American ever vote for him?

Trump made the same claim about Obama.  Both claims are nothing more than unfounded political hay, according to the many interpretations by the courts from the 1800's to present day of the Naturalization Acts of 1790 and 1795.

Edited January 14, 2021 by WaveHunter

[placeholder]

4 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

 

Fair and square though, right? 

 

Its just politics. 

 

Votes and opinion. 

 

Etc. 

 

 

Wrong. Nothing comparable done by Biden.

Edited January 14, 2021 by placeholder

[Jeffr2]

1 minute ago, placeholder said:

Wrong. Nothing comparable done by Biden.

NOT true if you only read the fake news right wing media sites!

[JCauto]

4 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

Unfortunately, Democrats won what they were trying to win. It was a horrible slugfest as predicted from the very beginning, and they narrowly squeaked out their goal. Right or wrong, they got it. 

 

Only thing left to do is allow them to govern, impeach, go after political rivals, and do what they always do, and in a few years there will be another republican government. 

 

I'm just glad to see that some of our Trumpeters have worked their way through to the last of the seven stages of grief! Congratulations. 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Trump made the same claim about Obama.  Both claims are nothing more than unfounded political hay, according to Interpretations by the courts going back to the 1800's.

I have to confess that I'm having trouble finding any media backup for my claim about Biden. So I' fornally retracting my claim.

[cmarshall]

2 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

OK, he has just been indicted then.

 

...or rather when (or if) Pelosi sends the papers across the hall.

 

Regarding your claim of the unconstitutionality of impeaching a formed president, there is a precedent for "late impeachment". The intent is to prevent him running for office again. It's like spraying Baygon on a cockroach AND stamping on it.

 

I think the GOP has more to lose than angry Pelosi and the Dems in this instance. Apart from a handful of misguided Republican statesmen and women still carrying a candle for Trump, the party has already turned their backs on him but having him lurking around the corridors of power for another four years will undoubtedly split their vote.

 

He has amassed a war chest although he may have to use that to bolster his overstated personal business finances. Any IRS fines could also be a bit of a drain.

 

He has been impeached, but NOT indicted.  Huge difference.  There are a couple of precedents for impeachment of officials after their having left office, but as I explained in another post, those are weak precedents.  And there is another precedent on the other side of the argument.  Nixon was never impeached.  When the pack of Republican senators told him that he was going to be impeached and would be convicted in the Senate, he resigned.

 

No one, and I mean really no one at all, at the time said well let's impeach and try him in the Senate anyway.  No one thought that was an option.  This precedent supports the interpretation that impeachment is for removal from office and not applicable when the accused no longer holds office.  

 

[robblok]

2 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

Oh, dont you worry ... about Trump in the next election. Hes toast, and that reason has nothing to do with "the GOP" and everything to do with him being de-platformed. 

 

That he is toast is something we agree upon. I think he alienated his own allies too much. There were even republicans going against him. So that says a bit about how popular he is. I am pretty sure a lot of republicans blame him too for losing the election. Only the brighter ones not the ones that read alternative media of course.

[polpott]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

Right, but once he has left office trying him in the Senate is probably unconstitutional

You continue to repeat this assumption with no evidence. Not one person in the house, Republican or democrat has made this assertion. If it were true don't you think someone would have brought this up during yesterday's impeachment hearing. Maybe you should inform the Republican party as they seem completely unaware of this.