House impeaches Trump after U.S. Capitol siege; his fate in Senate hands

[Walker88 4,176]

40 minutes ago, ExpatOK said:

The anti Trump crowd in DC has become totally unhinged and the American people see it.  An over emotional reaction to a speech where Trump said he wanted a peaceful protest.  A long trial in the Senate will only help Trump and hurt Nancy and gang. More facts will come out. Pelosi, operating on emotion only, has guaranteed Trump's exoneration and reelection in 2024.

I will remind you that 45 lost the election. Badly. It was the worst loss by an incumbent repub ever.

 

Faced with an embarrassing landslide rejection, 45 then began lying incessantly about 'fraud', yet produced a sum total of zero evidence. He and his minions lost in courts 69 times, in cases led by judges appointed by Dems and repubs, even by 45. It was a series of impotent flailing aginst reality, yet 45 continued to spout and foment conspiracy theories that resonated with a base that has scant grasp on reality.

 

The base , fed a constant stream of lies by 45 and repubs, got angry. 45 fomented that anger and told his followers to come to DC and protest. It "will be wild" he said.

 

Then he met them along with others who spread false conspiracy theories, and together they incited the mob to storm the Capitol. 45 claimed "I'll march with you", which of course he did not do, instead retreated to his bunker.

 

When the terrorists stormed the Capitol, even chanting "Hang Mike Pence !" (after 45 Tweeted that Pence let you all down...since deleted by Twitter), 45 issued a video where he called them "very special people" and "we love you". The terrorists claimed "my POTUS told me to do this", which he did.

 

There is no indication whatsoever that 45 wanted a 'peaceful protest', and every indication he wanted exactly what he got. Sources inside the WH claim he was enjoying the terrorist attack and was puzzled that others around him did not seem to be enjoying it.

 

He incited terrorism. His followers were actively hunting Democrat Congresspeople. he failed to call in back-up for six hours, despite phone calls even from repubs holed up in the Capitol and fearing for their lives. 45 ignored their pleas. Back-up only came after VP Pence ordered it.

 

The Democrats did not overreact. 45 was impeached for inciting insurrection. He will face trial in the Senate. He is also likely to face civil suits by people who suffered.

 

In my opinion, which is shared by many, he is a traitor to the US. Seditious conspiracy, which the new AG may charge him with, is a felony that could land 45 in jail for up to 20 years.

Edited January 14 by Walker88

[Mama Noodle 6,406]

1 minute ago, mtraveler said:

A meltdown on voter fraud?  I think not.  Just laying out the facts.  I just assumed from what you wrote that you were asserting there was voter fraud, as it's all I've heard the last 2 months.

 

There was voter fraud, but not enough to sway the election. What YOU heard has no bearing on what IM saying. 

 

1 minute ago, mtraveler said:

Perhaps I should have asked you what you meant by your words:  "I still don't accept that it was fair or right...".  Sorry if I assumed that you were referring to voter fraud.  Since it's not that, what did you think was unfair or not right about the election?  

 

I literally gave 5-6 reasons in the post, Im not going to do it again. Maybe just read them again and carefully. 

[mr mr 5,565]

i blame trump.

[sirineou 17,220]

8 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

Trump is certainly liable for prosecution for incitement to insurrection, however he would have to be convicted.  If you listen carefully to his incitement speech it is not quite so definitely incriminating as it sounded at first, even though his intent is clear enough to those of us not inclined to give him the benefit of any doubt.  I think it would be difficult to convict him based on the content of that speech.

 

However, Trump would be safe from federal prosecution if Pence were to pardon him.  That doesn't look so likely at the moment, but I will nevertheless breathe a sigh of relief if it hasn't happened by Jan. 20.  A self-pardon won't protect him.

I really don't know, it is a gray area, and I am no legal scholar or any other  scholar  by any stretch of the imagination. but consider the following . If  trump resigned (a big if) and if Pence offered him a pardon, (another big if) trump does not have to accept it, but if he does it implies  admission of guilt, and as such liable under 14th amendment section 3. There seems to be president in  "Decision. The Supreme Court ruled in Burdick that a pardon carries "an imputation of guilt, acceptance a confession of it "  . 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States#:~:text=until he complied.-,Decision,acceptance a confession of it".

of course I have also read argument that the above only applied in limiter cases.

It would be interesting to see.  

 

[cmarshall 2,974]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That of course depends upon the evidence/testimony and it’s for the future.

 

Right now Trump is once again impeached and those amongst his followers who attacked the Capitol are being arrested and charged.

 

Words have consequences and we’ve now arrived at the ‘serous consequences’

part.

Trump can only be convicted of incitement to insurrection based on his public utterances which are already known.  Conviction on an incitement charge is inherently difficult and Trump took care to include some injunctions against violence so that convicting him on that charge is unlikely, in my opinion.

 

There are any number of other federal crimes for which his conviction would be much more likely and I hope and expect the new DoJ to pursue those charges aggressively.  Always with the caveat that Pence hasn't pardoned him.

[cmarshall 2,974]

2 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I really don't know, it is a gray area, and I am no legal scholar or any other  scholar  by any stretch of the imagination. but consider the following . If  trump resigned (a big if) and if Pence offered him a pardon, (another big if) trump does not have to accept it, but if he does it implies  admission of guilt, and as such liable under 14th amendment section 3. There seems to be president in  "Decision. The Supreme Court ruled in Burdick that a pardon carries "an imputation of guilt, acceptance a confession of it "  . 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States#:~:text=until he complied.-,Decision,acceptance a confession of it".

of course I have also read argument that the above only applied in limiter cases.

It would be interesting to see.  

 

 

Clearly Trump would accept a pardon from Pence, since any implication of guilt that would attach to such a pardon would attach equally to a self-pardon about which he shows no shyness whatever.

[Jeffr2 7,835]

35 minutes ago, ExpatOK said:

The anti Trump crowd in DC has become totally unhinged and the American people see it.  An over emotional reaction to a speech where Trump said he wanted a peaceful protest.  A long trial in the Senate will only help Trump and hurt Nancy and gang. More facts will come out. Pelosi, operating on emotion only, has guaranteed Trump's exoneration and reelection in 2024.

Right...it was all anti Trump people who broke into the capitol building and caused 6 deaths.

 

You really need a better source for your news.  Right now, you're just trolling.

 

Pelosi did what?  If the senate verifies this impeachment, Trump can never run for office again.  Never.  Something Mitch seems to want.  If so, Trump's toast.

[Captain Monday 1,756]

23 minutes ago, Walker88 said:

I will remind you that 45 lost the election. Badly. It was the worst loss by an incumbent repub ever.

 

Faced with an embarrassing landslide rejection, 45 then began lying incessantly about 'fraud', yet produced a sum total of zero evidence. He and his minions lost in courts 69 times, in cases led by judges appointed by Dems and repubs, even by 45. It was a series of impotent flailing aginst reality, yet 45 continued to spout and foment conspiracy theories that resonated with a base that has scant grasp on reality.

 

The base , fed a constant stream of lies by 45 and repubs, got angry. 45 fomented that anger and told his followers to come to DC and protest. It "will be wild" he said.

 

Then he met them along with others who spread false conspiracy theories, and together they incited the mob to storm the Capitol. 45 claimed "I'll march with you", which of course he did not do, instead retreated to his bunker.

 

When the terrorists stormed the Capitol, even chanting "Hang Mike Pence !" (after 45 Tweeted that Pence let you all down...since deleted by Twitter), 45 issued a video where he called them "very special people" and "we love you". The terrorists claimed "my POTUS told me to do this", which he did.

 

There is no indication whatsoever that 45 wanted a 'peaceful protest', and every indication he wanted exactly what he got. Sources inside the WH claim he was enjoying the terrorist attack and was puzzled that others around him did not seem to be enjoying it.

 

He incited terrorism. His followers were actively hunting Democrat Congresspeople. he failed to call in back-up for six hours, despite phone calls even from repubs holed up in the Capitol and fearing for their lives. 45 ignored their pleas. Back-up only came after VP Pence ordered it.

 

The Democrats did not overreact. 45 was impeached for inciting insurrection. He will face trial in the Senate. He is also likely to face civil suits by people who suffered.

 

In my opinion, which is shared by many, he is a traitor to the US. Seditious conspiracy, which the new AG may charge him with, is a felony that could land 45 in jail for  20 years.

One point. He actually has been talking about fraud since 2016 when he was expecting to lose, For all of 2020 "If I lose the election was rigged" 

"

[Walker88 4,176]

19 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

There was voter fraud, but not enough to sway the election. What YOU heard has no bearing on what IM saying. 

 

 

I literally gave 5-6 reasons in the post, Im not going to do it again. Maybe just read them again and carefully. 

Yes, there was evidence of voter fraud. A man in PA cast the ballot of his dead mother. He voted for 45.

 

Of course that wasn't enough to sway the elction in 45's favor, but it was fraud.

 

One should be careful if one asserts that somehow the Dominion machines were involved in fraud, as already Dominion has filed a $1.3 billion lawsuit against sidney powell, who made up the farcical story about Dominion and dead Venezuelan leader hugo chavez, plus servers in Germany captured by a commando team, etc.

 

45 lost. Badly. Worst ever by a repub incumbent. An absolute slaughter in the popular vote. He cannot handle losing, so he lied and people died as a result.

[Jeffr2 7,835]

2 hours ago, polpott said:

This isn't a given. First the Senate must uphold the impeachment by 2/3rds majority, then an application to the Senate can be made to bar him from holding Federal office for life which requires a simple majority to pass, which would almost certainly pass now the Democrats hold the Senate.

 

McConnell is privately advocating this as it would wash that man right out of their hair, essential if the currently fractured Republican Party is to reunite and move forward as one.

 

It would also serve to remove any hopes of his base that their glorious leader will make a comeback. The Trump cult is a personality cult, remove the leader and the cult dies.

 

 

If Mitch goes along with this, Trump's toast.  Mitch has already said he wants the GOP to be rid of Trump.  Makes sense.

 

Fingers crossed, Mitch will get the votes he needs and rid the party of this garbage.

[Dumbastheycome 5,697]

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

If Mitch goes along with this, Trump's toast.  Mitch has already said he wants the GOP to be rid of Trump.  Makes sense.

 

Fingers crossed, Mitch will get the votes he needs and rid the party of this garbage.

At the same  time is it not sad that the same man who has enabled  so much  for Trump and used his power of position in the Senate continues  to wield power although in a  reversed  sense ?

[HAPPYNUFF 121]

I assume  the U.S. of A  has  the equivalent of  a  Mental Health Act, similar to in my country.

Why not just  declare him insane, as he obviously is, and incarcerate him, forever, in a mental institution??

[sirineou 17,220]

3 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

Clearly Trump would accept a pardon from Pence, since any implication of guilt that would attach to such a pardon would attach equally to a self-pardon about which he shows no shyness whatever.

I am sure he would, but then it might invalidate his ability to pursue future federal office under amendment 14 chapter 3 , and remove Damocles sword from over the head of potential challengers for leadership of the Republican party. 

 and it would certainly open him to certain legal challenges when he applies for candidate status. Furthermore ,  if he was to self pardone, as soon as he leaves office in a week, he will be indicted for the crimes of the pardon simply to challenge the validity of the self pardon. You don't think prosecutors will just let a self pardon fly with out challenge? It would be the end of American democracy and the beginning of the imperial presidency. 

IMO he will not self pardon because of the above reason, and will not resign because his personality pathology will not allow him to do so.

But who knows , I could be wrong, it's not like I have never been wrong before. LOL

 IMO trump is screwed and he knows it,  which is why had done anything he can to stay in power another four years . Maintain executive privilege and run down the clock on the statute of limitations for previous crimes that are waiting for him to leave office. 

[pacovl46 1,863]

2 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Unfortunately, trying the President for impeachment after he has left office is probably unconstitutional.  If McConnell were serious about getting rid of Trump he and Schumer would have called the Senate back into emergency session to conduct the trial before Trump leaves office.  

 

The Impeachment Clause, Article II, Section 4 states:

 

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

 

It seems pretty clear that the point of impeachment is removal from office.  A former president cannot be removed from office and is therefore not subject to impeachment.

 

Therefore, if the Senate goes ahead and tries Trump after Jan. 20 and if, big "If," they can muster a two thirds vote in the Senate to convict, I expect a court will subsequently overturn the conviction.

 

I understand the case that is being made for the opposite view, but I think it is weak.

Someone told me today if they were to impeach him he’d be stripped of the wage he’d get after getting out of office and he wouldn’t be provided with security until the end of his days. Don’t know if it’s true, though.

[Jeffr2 7,835]

2 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

At the same  time is it not sad that the same man who has enabled  so much  for Trump and used his power of position in the Senate continues  to wield power although in a  reversed  sense ?

McConnell presided over the worst performing senate in 100 years.  They accomplished very litte.  He's a horrible politician and should resign.  This cements the need for term limits.  2 terms and you're out.