Scottish nationalists set for record majority, boosting independence push

[kingdong]

8 hours ago, vogie said:

You are correct, you are wasting your time. 

Not going to bother responding,waste otime as you said.

[kingdong]

3 hours ago, transam said:

And if I am Welsh.....?     ???? 

They,ll be a welcome in the hillsides

[NiceGuyEddy]

18 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

I do, just as I hink being part of the largest and most advanced trading block would be a good idea.

 

PH

If it is the EU you are talking about, we would still be waiting for vaccine approvals and rollouts.

[Hi from France]

17 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

If it is the EU you are talking about, we would still be waiting for vaccine approvals and rollouts.

why on earth would you still be waiting? The UK was still bound by EU rules when it did its vaccine approvals and rollouts last december.

[kingdong]

9 hours ago, stevenl said:

Another vote because the situation has changed. And all indications are that the Scots want to break away.

Since when do the EU states have any say on Scottish independence?

And what constitutes " all indications " a few posts from people on tvf who didn,t agree with the democratic peoples vote to leave the eu? As the majority appear not to reside in bonnie scotland or be scottish citizens they would be  ineligible to vote,in any event if a vote is announced i,ll be straight down william hills for a wager on the outcome.

[kingdong]

9 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

why on earth would you still be waiting? The UK was still bound by EU rules when it did its vaccine approvals and rollouts last december.

Yeah,and we cocked a deaf,un to them.

[Phulublub]

3 minutes ago, kingdong said:

And what constitutes " all indications " a few posts from people on tvf who didn,t agree with the democratic peoples vote to leave the eu? As the majority appear not to reside in bonnie scotland or be scottish citizens they would be  ineligible to vote,in any event if a vote is announced i,ll be straight down william hills for a wager on the outcome.

You may not believe in polls, but many think they give a decent representation of what people think.  And a series saying much the same thing adds weight to the argument

 

PH

[NiceGuyEddy]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Absolutely not, unless it involves the the devolved nations taking the lead and England following. Are you willing to do that?

 

 

 

 

If the Northern Irish can replicate their Covid strategy in England, sure, I would be up for that. But I fear the horrible outcomes have more to do with population density and other social factors rather than governmental strategy. I mean they are all basically doing the same thing.

Edited January 26, 2021 by NiceGuyEddy

[sharksy]

Can you imagine if Scotland had its independance, lots it by joining the EU.

 

Scotland would now be way behind in the Covid vaccination rates along with the rest of the poorly performing EU.

 

Whilst the rest of the UK would be among the world's best in vaccination rates.

 

Britain better together, than divided.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Can you imagine if Scotland had its independance, lots it by joining the EU.

 

Scotland would now be way behind in the Covid vaccination rates along with the rest of the poorly performing EU.

 

Whilst the rest of the UK would be among the world's best in vaccination rates.

 

Britain better together, than divided.

 

The UK has the highest covid death toll in the world. There is absolutely nothing that the UK has done that I would want an independent Scotland to replicate. 

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, kingdong said:

And what constitutes " all indications " a few posts from people on tvf who didn,t agree with the democratic peoples vote to leave the eu? As the majority appear not to reside in bonnie scotland or be scottish citizens they would be  ineligible to vote,in any event if a vote is announced i,ll be straight down william hills for a wager on the outcome.

You'd be better off staying informed on what's happening in scotland in stead of Thai Visa Forum.

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, sharksy said:

Can you imagine if Scotland had its independance, lots it by joining the EU.

 

Scotland would now be way behind in the Covid vaccination rates along with the rest of the poorly performing EU.

 

Whilst the rest of the UK would be among the world's best in vaccination rates.

 

Britain better together, than divided.

The EU consists of independent countries.

Before commenting on the performance of the EU on covid (don't forget they're independent countries) you'd better look at the performance of the UK, specifically England.

[NiceGuyEddy]

17 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The UK has the highest covid death toll in the world. There is absolutely nothing that the UK has done that I would want an independent Scotland to replicate. 

That's not true, but whatever. It fits the SNP agenda of UK bad, EU good. 

[sharksy]

54 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

The UK has the highest covid death toll in the world. There is absolutely nothing that the UK has done that I would want an independent Scotland to replicate. 

 

43 minutes ago, stevenl said:

The EU consists of independent countries.

Before commenting on the performance of the EU on covid (don't forget they're independent countries) you'd better look at the performance of the UK, specifically England.

Uk has one of the highest older age groups in the world, seeing as (until very recently) most people who have died were over 80.

We can largely thank the NHS (most things for free, unlike most other countries) for keeping these people alive until Covid. 

 

Can I presume from your comments that there will be no NHS in an independent Scotland?  Actually, that might be the truth.  You wouldn't be able to afford it.

 

The EU still hasn't approved the Oxford-AstraZenneca vaccine, meanwhile all in the UK (Including Scotland!) have been benefitting from the jabs since last year.

 

I was reading today in the papers, even Haggis is believed to have originated in Northern England.  Maybe this should be locally protected in England, such as the Cornish Pasty!

 

[RuamRudy]

47 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

That's not true, but whatever. It fits the SNP agenda of UK bad, EU good. 

 

Who mentioned the EU? 

But believe me, this is not something that gives me anything other than total horror. 

 

Britain's Covid daily death toll is one of the worst in the world. What went wrong?

 

"... the U.K. had the highest per-capita daily death toll of any other country in the world — around twice that of the United States — according to rolling analysis by Oxford University.

Its daily per-capita deaths are currently second only to Portugal, but in terms of major powers right now the U.K. is an outlier, boasting as it does the world's fifth-largest economy and vast, publicly funded National Health Service.

So what went so wrong? "

[NiceGuyEddy]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Who mentioned the EU? 

But believe me, this is not something that gives me anything other than total horror. 

 

Britain's Covid daily death toll is one of the worst in the world. What went wrong?

 

"... the U.K. had the highest per-capita daily death toll of any other country in the world — around twice that of the United States — according to rolling analysis by Oxford University.

Its daily per-capita deaths are currently second only to Portugal, but in terms of major powers right now the U.K. is an outlier, boasting as it does the world's fifth-largest economy and vast, publicly funded National Health Service.

So what went so wrong? "

Your original comment was still incorrect. Or you could call it disinformation.

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

Your original comment was still incorrect. Or you could call it disinformation.

 

Admittedly I could have phrased it more clearly, but do you think that we have anything to crow about? 

[Hi from France]

38 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Who mentioned the EU? 

But believe me, this is not something that gives me anything other than total horror. 

 

Britain's Covid daily death toll is one of the worst in the world. What went wrong?

 

"... the U.K. had the highest per-capita daily death toll of any other country in the world — around twice that of the United States — according to rolling analysis by Oxford University.

Its daily per-capita deaths are currently second only to Portugal, but in terms of major powers right now the U.K. is an outlier, boasting as it does the world's fifth-largest economy and vast, publicly funded National Health Service.

So what went so wrong? "

 

 

even before christmas, at the beginning of the pandemics, while we were under lockdown in France, we were perplexed hearing Boris Johnson denying lockdown was needed because England is different, saying it was unthinkable to "take away the ancient rights of the British people to go to the pub".

 

... and he went visiting the NHS shaking hands and guess what a few weeks later, England was topping the death charts and he landed in a hospital (after contaminating his pregnant wife and members of the cabinet and SPAD Cummings).

 

 

National-populists leaders are really not the best,

 

 

that's why I can understand Scotland does not want BJ imposing his decisions on them. 

[NiceGuyEddy]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Admittedly I could have phrased it more clearly, but do you think that we have anything to crow about? 

No, I do not think there is anything to crow about but I don't agree with placing all of the blame on Boris Johnson. We are all adults and everyone needs to take some responsibility for their own actions. If everyone had stuck to the government restrictions and guidelines to the letter I believe the death toll would be a lot lower.

[kingdong]

3 hours ago, Phulublub said:

You may not believe in polls, but many think they give a decent representation of what people think.  And a series saying much the same thing adds weight to the argument

 

PH

Polls are like statistics they can be twisted to suit your agenda.

[NiceGuyEddy]

3 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

 

 

 

National-populists leaders are really not the best,

 

 

that's why I can understand Scotland does not want BJ imposing his decisions on them. 

Boris Johnson did not impose any decisions regarding covid on the scots. They set out their own guidelines throughout the pandemic. Also what do you think Mrs Sturgeon is if she is not a nationalist populist leader?

[kingdong]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

You'd be better off staying informed on what's happening in scotland in stead of Thai Visa Forum.

Couldn,t really give a tinkers cuss to be brutally frank,it just amazes me how so many people get worked up about subjects that are of no concern of theirs.

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Couldn,t really give a tinkers cuss to be brutally frank,it just amazes me how so many people get worked up about subjects that are of no concern of theirs.

Exactly, let the Scots be.

[kingdong]

Just now, stevenl said:

Exactly, let the Scots be.

Just trying to point out the error of their ways,also i,m half scotch myself ao will apply for a jock passport in the unlikely event of them voting to leave,also your comment should apply to the uk regarding brexit,let them be.

[stevenl]

21 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Just trying to point out the error of their ways,also i,m half scotch myself ao will apply for a jock passport in the unlikely event of them voting to leave,also your comment should apply to the uk regarding brexit,let them be.

Agree, let them be.

[kingdong]

45 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

No, I do not think there is anything to crow about but I don't agree with placing all of the blame on Boris Johnson. We are all adults and everyone needs to take some responsibility for their own actions. If everyone had stuck to the government restrictions and guidelines to the letter I believe the death toll would be a lot lower.

The uk is a small overcrowded country with porous borders and is paying the price.

[UKresonant]

I think the UK is far too integrated, to suddenly just split to support political career ambitions, it would take years of transition. 

Nichola S. is probably quite a good politician, but I could only vote for her if she dropped what appears to be an anti-English Obsession!

I don't doubt that Scotland could stand by it's self, with about 30 years UK collaborative preparation.  One of the Banks at the time of the last referendum, forecast that there would need to be a fund of helicopter money equal to about half a year of Scotland's GDP available to stop the economy falling off a cliff due to uncertainty. There appears to be a lot of academic thinking, and many passionate, passionate, about becoming independent, but very little "What then" discussed. Nothing about credible economic analysis or modelling mentioned. (Demonstrated at an actual special interest debate,  I was lucky to be able to attend, just before the last referendum) 

The arguments for indi' are quite often the 180 degree exact opposite of the arguments the same people were using against leaving the EU. 

I think the nationalist have successfully whipped up the illusion "The Scottish people want..."

well, not really from my and a lot of others peoples point of view. I was talking to someone on a BKK to LHR EVA flight at the time of the referendum, and that was the impression he had from the media, I had to say "nope". Every time I hear the statements of "The Scottish people want.." from that group, it really gets my back up. I think they must spend a lot of time in their own bubbles or silos. They may say the same about us, but we may be happy-ish, whilst they only appear bitter.

I think England devolving somewhat, may cure many of the sighted, central gov issues, used to  kindle resentment, and the separatist .agenda. Though the London centric squad just cannot prevent shooting themselves in the foot on many issues...concerning the union

.... to be continued 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by UKresonant

[herfiehandbag]

4 hours ago, UKresonant said:

I think the UK is far too integrated, to suddenly just split to support political career ambitions, it would take years of transition. 

Nichola S. is probably quite a good politician, but I could only vote for her if she dropped what appears to be an anti-English Obsession!

I don't doubt that Scotland could stand by it's self, with about 30 years UK collaborative preparation.  One of the Banks at the time of the last referendum, forecast that there would need to be a fund of helicopter money equal to about half a year of Scotland's GDP available to stop the economy falling off a cliff due to uncertainty. There appears to be a lot of academic thinking, and many passionate, passionate, about becoming independent, but very little "What then" discussed. Nothing about credible economic analysis or modelling mentioned. (Demonstrated at an actual special interest debate,  I was lucky to be able to attend, just before the last referendum) 

The arguments for indi' are quite often the 180 degree exact opposite of the arguments the same people were using against leaving the EU. 

I think the nationalist have successfully whipped up the illusion "The Scottish people want..."

well, not really from my and a lot of others peoples point of view. I was talking to someone on a BKK to LHR EVA flight at the time of the referendum, and that was the impression he had from the media, I had to say "nope". Every time I hear the statements of "The Scottish people want.." from that group, it really gets my back up. I think they must spend a lot of time in their own bubbles or silos. They may say the same about us, but we may be happy-ish, whilst they only appear bitter.

I think England devolving somewhat, may cure many of the sighted, central gov issues, used to  kindle resentment, and the separatist .agenda. Though the London centric squad just cannot prevent shooting themselves in the foot on many issues...concerning the union

.... to be continued 

 

A lot in what you say.

 

I agree that splitting the economies needs much more thought and preparation. It is not as simple as "demerging" two economies which previously stood alone. I am something of an amateur historian, and like to look at these things from a historical perspective. The modern economies of Scotland, England and Wales developed together, the Industrial Revolution and the subsequent two and a half centuries which led to the construction of the physical, economic and political infrastructure of the UK occurred well after the union of the two countries. The economies were never merged, rather they developed as one unit. Splitting them would be a massive task. The adverse results would be long lasting. 

 

If we look at the Irish departure from the United Kingdom in the early 1920s you can see, although geography made it physically easier, it can still be argued that it was at least 4 or 5 decades before Ireland really "arrived" as a modern economy.

 

On your second point, the devolution within England to reduce the dominance of a London based government, there is a case to be made. If we ignore the kaftan wearing fringe demanding Wessex nationalism and compulsory mead drinking at all formal events, the problem has (I think) always been that such proposals are seen as having a subtext of somehow emasculating England; which is naturally the largest, wealthiest and most influential/powerful country in the union, by virtue of it's size, population and economy, rather than benefitting the country.

 

It is perhaps an unfortunate accident that the capital is in the bottom right hand corner of the archipelago!

Edited January 27, 2021 by herfiehandbag

[NanLaew]

15 hours ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

I find it amusing that the anti-english SNP cult and their fanatical  followers assume automatically that they would win an independance referendum. (which will not happen for another generation anyway)

Anyway, we are in the middle of a global pandemic of a killer virus, for which it will take years to recover from, and the SNP cult is stil banging on about independance. It's so unbelievable!

 

If the SNP think that getting a new referendum is such a huge struggle, just wait until they get to organize one.

 

If the SNP then thinks that winning that second referendum was an even greater struggle, just wait until they actually have to run the show.

 

I know, all pie in the sky hypotheticals with as much chance as a snowball's chance in hell of happening but they started it.

 

BTW, There's already been a movie made about it. I think everyone here has either seen or is at least familar with Titanic, no?

[RuamRudy]

6 hours ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

Boris Johnson did not impose any decisions regarding covid on the scots. They set out their own guidelines throughout the pandemic. Also what do you think Mrs Sturgeon is if she is not a nationalist populist leader?

 

Not true. We have no control over immigration and the Westminster government has left that as a free for all. 

 

Remember the outrage when it was mooted that we should have checkpoints on the border between England and Scotland to prevent unnecessary travel? We were called a fascist state then. 

 

But working with one arm tied behind her back, Sturgeon has performed better than Johnson.