UK's Johnson says record COVID-19 death figures are appalling

[Chomper Higgot]

41 minutes ago, kingdong said:

I,m sure the people of the uk will benefit more from the £350 million being given to the nhs than handed over to the gravy train of the eu,still sure the remaining members will be happy to make up the shortfall.

Except it’s not being given to the NHS.

[kingdong]

18 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Except it’s not being given to the NHS.

But as it said on the big red bus it could have ,been,what will happen it,ll become part of the government's pot for the benefit of the uk,and am jolly well sure it,ll  come in handy with the vast governmental costs of the corona pandemic,nightingale hospitals,vaccines nhs wages bill etc etc.

[Chomper Higgot]

48 minutes ago, kingdong said:

But as it said on the big red bus it could have ,been,what will happen it,ll become part of the government's pot for the benefit of the uk,and am jolly well sure it,ll  come in handy with the vast governmental costs of the corona pandemic,nightingale hospitals,vaccines nhs wages bill etc etc.

On the other side of the balance sheet, the costs to businesses and the economy of that other thing Johnson made a pig’s ear of,Brexit.

[kingdong]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

On the other side of the balance sheet, the costs to businesses and the economy of that other thing Johnson made a pig’s ear of,Brexit.

Don,t deflect,you do it every time you,re incapable of countering a point,the thread is about corona not brexit.

[johnnybangkok]

13 hours ago, VBF said:

Thanks for mentioning that - it totally distorts the figures. I personally know 3 elderly people who have died since March 2020 - one was 95 with Alzheimer's and in failing health.

The others were in their 70s but both had terminal cancer and one had a stroke - as they all tested positive for Covid that's what their deaths were attributed to.... IMO, WRONGLY!   By the way, NONE of them had any respiratory problems.

Oh for gods sake are we still doing this!

OK, one more time for the hard of hearing at the back.

Lets say you have terminal cancer and have been given 3 months to live but 2 weeks after your diagnosis you are fatally shot, what do you think they put as the cause of death? Obviously death by gun-shot.

It's exactly the same with Covid as even though the victim may have had serious underlying conditions, Covid exasperated their early demise, much in the same way as being shot in the head would.

Do we get it now?

[johnnybangkok]

12 hours ago, puchooay said:

Having been living in UK since before the start of the pandemic I can tell you one thing from personal experience and observations.

 

Lockdown or no lockdown, late or on time lockdown, mask or no mask, test and trace or no test and trace, Johnson or any other PM, the results would have been much the same.

 

It is the public that is at fault. People walking in shops, supermarkets, in the country, along the promenade or just down the street. A large percentage of the population just aren't taking any notice.

 

In Morrison last week and must have had half a dozen people brush past me as I was stationary. 

 

Only this morning I passed 4 women, all with kids in pushchairs, standing on the corner of our street chatting. No distance and no face masks.

 

The rules have been there but no one is taking much notice.

 

Many care homes are a joke too. The media have made it sound like PPE is a new thing when it isn't. Care homes have been using it for years. My wife and daughter work in a care home. There has never been a shortage of PPE. Why? Because the management did not hang about and wait for guidance or handouts. They bought there own supplies from the many suppliers that had a mountain of stock. They also quickly set up their own quarantine area for those infected or residents arriving there from hospital. Any care home management team that are worthy if their position should have been able to make these decisions too.

 

Can't hold the PM responsible, whatever his name is or whether you like him/her or not, for the behaviour of the whole population. 

I absolutely disagree with pretty much all of this.

To absolve the government of their responsibility because the population (surprise, surprise) don't follow the rules is deflection at it's finest.

The government could have done plenty about all of this by firstly closing borders and mass testing (followed by tracking) right at the beginning of the pandemic to the mandatory wearing of masks to a complete lock down of the country until the ROI number was manageable. Instead you got an ill thought out 'herd immunity' initiative that wasted valuable weeks at the beginning, flip-flopping plans and some rules for some, some rules for others. You even had Boris shaking hands with all and sundry and literally no concrete plan for the long term. 

Many other countries (Thailand included) with far fewer resources and far more reasons to not do well vastly outperformed the UK.

The buck has to stop somewhere and that needs to be Boris and his Tory cronies.  

 

[Surelynot]

12 hours ago, puchooay said:

Having been living in UK since before the start of the pandemic I can tell you one thing from personal experience and observations.

 

Lockdown or no lockdown, late or on time lockdown, mask or no mask, test and trace or no test and trace, Johnson or any other PM, the results would have been much the same.

 

It is the public that is at fault. People walking in shops, supermarkets, in the country, along the promenade or just down the street. A large percentage of the population just aren't taking any notice.

 

In Morrison last week and must have had half a dozen people brush past me as I was stationary. 

 

Only this morning I passed 4 women, all with kids in pushchairs, standing on the corner of our street chatting. No distance and no face masks.

 

The rules have been there but no one is taking much notice.

 

Many care homes are a joke too. The media have made it sound like PPE is a new thing when it isn't. Care homes have been using it for years. My wife and daughter work in a care home. There has never been a shortage of PPE. Why? Because the management did not hang about and wait for guidance or handouts. They bought there own supplies from the many suppliers that had a mountain of stock. They also quickly set up their own quarantine area for those infected or residents arriving there from hospital. Any care home management team that are worthy if their position should have been able to make these decisions too.

 

Can't hold the PM responsible, whatever his name is or whether you like him/her or not, for the behaviour of the whole population. 

So who was it that signed the release orders allows physicians to release elderly covid infected (and untested) patients back into care homes?

[NoshowJones]

On 1/21/2021 at 9:43 AM, Chomper Higgot said:

The PM is commenting on the deaths, the news item is therefore the PM comments on the deaths.

 

Why does the age of the victims matter, they all leave families, loved ones and friends grieving?!

I don't think that age alone matters, but most old people as far as I'm aware, have other health conditions like obesity and smoke related conditions which would badly affect them as they would not have good immune systems, therefor the biggest amount of deaths is always going to be mostly old people.

[puchooay]

49 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

So who was it that signed the release orders allows physicians to release elderly covid infected (and untested) patients back into care homes?

How was it known they were infected if they were untested?

 

Who was it that did not set up isolation areas in many of the care homes?

 

This whole pandemic caught many many by surprise. To blame one individual, for political reasons only as can be seen by the typical mentions of Brexit, is not the right thing to do.

 

Lockdown here right now. As I said before, many many people out and about doing things they shouldn't. Everyone needs to take responsibility and think for themselves.

[Guffman]

The UK death figures are presented as people dying within 28 days after a positive test result and covid is mentioned on the death certificate. Absolutely no other information is given. There is no way of knowing if the virus killed them outright, helped them along the way, or they got hit by a bus. It's totally unscientific and unreliable. On the plus side at least they now have to test positive before being counted whereas at the peak last year that wasn't even necessary. The whole thing is a mess.

[johnnybangkok]

3 minutes ago, puchooay said:

How was it known they were infected if they were untested?

 

Who was it that did not set up isolation areas in many of the care homes?

 

This whole pandemic caught many many by surprise. To blame one individual, for political reasons only as can be seen by the typical mentions of Brexit, is not the right thing to do.

 

Lockdown here right now. As I said before, many many people out and about doing things they shouldn't. Everyone needs to take responsibility and think for themselves.

By your opinion we shouldn't need to have laws on wearing seat belts, drink driving, operating heavy machinery, burglary, rape, murder because you know people are really good at  taking  responsibility and thinking for themselves.

It was soooooo predictable that people would not follow 'guidance' on Covid to be almost funny. Laws (you know set by the government) have to be set and strongly enforced. This is not something that should have been left to the whims and fancies of the populace in an ill-thought out attempt to gain immunity by consensus. 

It's the governments responsibility for the wellfair of it's population; something Boris and the Tories have failed at on almost every level. 

[puchooay]

15 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

By your opinion we shouldn't need to have laws on wearing seat belts, drink driving, operating heavy machinery, burglary, rape, murder

The complete opposite.

 

There are rules in place but people disobey them.

 

Do you blame the government for every rape? Death by drunk driving or not wearing a seat belt? Every murder? Do you blame the government for the death of a guy operating machinery without the proper health and safety checks in place?

 

The answer is surely NO.

 

Laws, restrictions and rules regarding this virus are in place. They are being policed as best they can be. Some chose to flout those laws, rules and restrictions.

 

 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, kingdong said:

But as it said on the big red bus it could have ,been,what will happen it,ll become part of the government's pot for the benefit of the uk,and am jolly well sure it,ll  come in handy with the vast governmental costs of the corona pandemic,nightingale hospitals,vaccines nhs wages bill etc etc.

No, it couldn't have been because Brexit didn't save the UK anything close to that amount.

[Surelynot]

50 minutes ago, puchooay said:

How was it known they were infected if they were untested?

 

Who was it that did not set up isolation areas in many of the care homes?

No one knew so what the F lets just gamble on their lives?

 

There was no demand no requirement no expectation placed on care homes (first time around)....they were just told to receive these elderly patients back into their care......absolutely criminal.

[billd766]

3 hours ago, kingdong said:

But as it said on the big red bus it could have ,been,what will happen it,ll become part of the government's pot for the benefit of the uk,and am jolly well sure it,ll  come in handy with the vast governmental costs of the corona pandemic,nightingale hospitals,vaccines nhs wages bill etc etc.

That was in 2016 and nobody had ever heard about Covid 19. Here we are 4/5 years later and Covid is affecting the whole world, not just the UK and just about every country is spending huge amounts trying their own way to fight it.

 

IO sometimes wish all these nay sayers could come up with original working proposals that could be of use.

 

The UK is already giving injections  of the Covid vaccine and is one of the very first countries to do so.

 

Does Boris get any credit for that? Not a chance, because it is positive, it is a fact which the nay sayers hate simply because it proves them wrong.

 

Instead most of them have never been able or competent enough to actually DO something that would make a difference

[placeholder]

8 minutes ago, billd766 said:

That was in 2016 and nobody had ever heard about Covid 19. Here we are 4/5 years later and Covid is affecting the whole world, not just the UK and just about every country is spending huge amounts trying their own way to fight it.

 

IO sometimes wish all these nay sayers could come up with original working proposals that could be of use.

 

The UK is already giving injections  of the Covid vaccine and is one of the very first countries to do 

There were plenty of naysayers back when giving Boris advice like wear a mask and socially distance.  He may have  nearly died because he ignored them

[transam]

 

Many old folk are in their box early because of these tools, the spoilt brat generation.

 

We have seen many photos of thousands of human tools rebelling because they don't want to follow the rules, they couldn't give a toss about spreading the killer bug to the vulnerable....

 

The spoilt brat generation, and the just plain loony .............????

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by transam
meme removed / quote of/response to hidden post removed

[onthedarkside]

Two meme posts have been removed, along with comments related to them.

 

This is a discussion forum, not a meme posting forum.

 

[VBF]

3 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

Oh for gods sake are we still doing this!

OK, one more time for the hard of hearing at the back.

Lets say you have terminal cancer and have been given 3 months to live but 2 weeks after your diagnosis you are fatally shot, what do you think they put as the cause of death? Obviously death by gun-shot.

It's exactly the same with Covid as even though the victim may have had serious underlying conditions, Covid exasperated their early demise, much in the same way as being shot in the head would.

Do we get it now?

No, it's NOT "exactly the same with Covid"   (for those hard of hearing wherever you may be situated!)

 

You've contradicted yourself by saying "Covid exasperated their early demise....."

It may have done but the root cause was the underlying condition

 

If that was not the case, then everybody who got Covid would be dying, not just the vulnerable people, plus some unlucky ones who were otherwise healthy. That latter group are still a small minority of overall Covid deaths.

 

IMO death certificates and other records should be saying something like  "Cause of death <insert underlying condition> coupled with Covid-19"

That would offer much more accuracy.

So, do you get it it now?

[johnnybangkok]

2 hours ago, puchooay said:

The complete opposite.

 

There are rules in place but people disobey them.

 

Do you blame the government for every rape? Death by drunk driving or not wearing a seat belt? Every murder? Do you blame the government for the death of a guy operating machinery without the proper health and safety checks in place?

 

The answer is surely NO.

 

Laws, restrictions and rules regarding this virus are in place. They are being policed as best they can be. Some chose to flout those laws, rules and restrictions.

 

 

No one is disputing the fact that the British public have flaunted rules and gone against recommendations but the important part the government could have played in all this is where liability lays. From being slow to act on WHO regulations (the WHO declared a public health emergency on the 30th January but it took Boris until 30 March to start the lockdown) to the fact it took until August to make face coverings compulsory BY LAW and it's only been recently that you have seen comprehensive travel bans (the UK have been allowing people in for nearly a year). 

Boris has procrastinated and delayed, giving out confusing messages that have been flaunted by even those in his own team.

This is where the government should be blamed and rightly so.

[johnnybangkok]

12 minutes ago, VBF said:

No, it's NOT "exactly the same with Covid"   (for those hard of hearing wherever you may be situated!)

 

You've contradicted yourself by saying "Covid exasperated their early demise....."

It may have done but the root cause was the underlying condition

 

If that was not the case, then everybody who got Covid would be dying, not just the vulnerable people, plus some unlucky ones who were otherwise healthy. That latter group are still a small minority of overall Covid deaths.

 

IMO death certificates and other records should be saying something like  "Cause of death <insert underlying condition> coupled with Covid-19"

That would offer much more accuracy.

So, do you get it it now?

We are debating cause of death.

The cause of death is Covid. Regardless of what these peoples underlying conditions were, they died from the effects Covid had on their body. Many people who had underlying conditions could have lived for many, many years with their condition if it wasn't for Covid.

Again I will go back to my example. I person could have cancer. That cancer may kill them but equally so, they could live for many, many years. They then contract Covid but Covid doesn't make them die of cancer; it just takes advantage of an already weak body and they die of respiratory problems (the big killer with Covid).

Cause of death - Covid. 

[youreavinalaff]

8 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

No one is disputing the fact that the British public have flaunted rules and gone against recommendations but the important part the government could have played in all this is where liability lays. From being slow to act on WHO regulations (the WHO declared a public health emergency on the 30th January but it took Boris until 30 March to start the lockdown) to the fact it took until August to make face coverings compulsory BY LAW and it's only been recently that you have seen comprehensive travel bans (the UK have been allowing people in for nearly a year). 

Boris has procrastinated and delayed, giving out confusing messages that have been flaunted by even those in his own team.

This is where the government should be blamed and rightly so.

WHO regulations?

 

They have backtracked, Uturned and changed their advice many times.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You are using it now. Decision makers have not had that luxury.

[youreavinalaff]

2 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

We are debating cause of death.

The cause of death is Covid. Regardless of what these peoples underlying conditions were, they died from the effects Covid had on their body. Many people who had underlying conditions could have lived for many, many years with their condition if it wasn't for Covid.

Again I will go back to my example. I person could have cancer. That cancer may kill them but equally so, they could live for many, many years. They then contract Covid but Covid doesn't make them die of cancer; it just takes advantage of an already weak body and they die of respiratory problems (the big killer with Covid).

Cause of death - Covid. 

I don't recall having seen figures relating to those who tested positive within 28 days and subsequently recovered. Hence, the underlying and pre covid19 condition would have been the result of death. You appear to have seen these figures. Care to share them?

[placeholder]

10 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

WHO regulations?

 

They have backtracked, Uturned and changed their advice many times.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You are using it now. Decision makers have not had that luxury.

Many times? Really? Care to share links?

And we do know that BJ utterly ignored warnings about how to stay safe and he suffered the consequences.

[youreavinalaff]

11 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Many times? Really? Care to share links?

And we do know that BJ utterly ignored warnings about how to stay safe and he suffered the consequences.

Just off the top of my head. In April WHO said lockdowns were the best way forward. In October they said the opposite. In March WHO said masks were not required in public places but in June they said they were................

[placeholder]

3 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Just off the top of my head. In April WHO said lockdowns were the best way forward. In October they said the opposite. In March WHO said masks were not required in public places but in June they said they were................

Here's where WHO stood in October. Basically it said if you have the following measures in place, you can ease lockdowns. Thailand stands as a good example of that. The UK, not so much.

So when should lockdowns and restrictions be lifted?

The WHO put out a six-step plan for governments to follow to ease restrictions.

To ease restrictions the WHO says governments should:

• Ensure transmission is under control
• Make sure health systems can care for every case — including tracing and isolating
• Minimise risks in health facilities, including nursing homes
• Have preventative measures in workplaces, schools and other essential places
• Manage the risk of the virus being imported in from another place
• Fully educate the community on the new normal, and how they can protect themselves

WHO doctor says lockdowns should not be main coronavirus defence - ABC News

 

As for masks, as research began to show that masks were effective the WHO and others changed their advice. Not arbitrary flip-flopping at all.

 

As Johnson has admitted, he was foolish not to follow the guidelines as they then existed.

[johnnybangkok]

22 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

WHO regulations?

 

They have backtracked, Uturned and changed their advice many times.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. You are using it now. Decision makers have not had that luxury.

The WHO declared a “public health emergency of international concern”  (their highest warning available) on the 30th January 2020. This should have triggered standard operating procedures put firmly in place after SARS, Ebola etc by many countries, but only a handful of countries actually did anything (Taiwan, S Korea, Thailand etc). The WHO has no authority over individual countries and cannot dictate the policy (or lack of) that countries follow thereafter.

The fact that so many countries have handled COVID well whilst many, many haven’t (of which the UK is one of the worst) should tell you all about who took the WHO warning seriously and who didn’t. Ignoring guidance is not their fault. 
And please provide examples of when they have “backtracked, unturned and changed their advice”? Their advice has been pretty consistent (given the available information at the time) and if there’s been any changes it’s only been when new evidence/information  has been made available. 

 

[youreavinalaff]

33 minutes ago, johnnybangkok said:

given the available information at the time

Exactly my point.

[Pro1Expat]

12 hours ago, stevenl said:

So no link to underline your claim.

I would suggest you learn how to use a computer as that link has all the information

[johnnybangkok]

1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said:

Exactly my point.

Hardly 'backtracked, Uturned and changed their advice many times' when you are updating your advice when new information comes up.

So no. Not your point.