UK's Johnson says record COVID-19 death figures are appalling

[kingdong]

4 hours ago, transam said:

 

Many old folk are in their box early because of these tools, the spoilt brat generation.

 

We have seen many photos of thousands of human tools rebelling because they don't want to follow the rules, they couldn't give a toss about spreading the killer bug to the vulnerable....

 

The spoilt brat generation, and the just plain loony .............????

 

These spoilt brat generation remind me of militant smokers who inflict passive smoking on non smokers,both endanger innocent peop!e through their selfish actions,if they want to kill themselves,fine by me,trouble is they,re endangering the lives of those around them.

[puchooay]

I've just walked down to the seafront near my home for my daily exercise.

 

The place is heaving. A mile long stretch of cars bumper to bumper, both sides of the road. Promenade full of walkers. 80% no masks, most not social distancing. Queues at coffee outlets not social distancing. Kids on bikes and scooters stopping and talking to each other. All ages.

 

My guess would be my hometown is not the only place like this.

 

None of the above can be blamed on anyone other than those that are there. <deleted> all fault of anyone in government.

 

If people want to go out they will. Simple.

 

 

[puchooay]

1 hour ago, johnnybangkok said:

Hardly 'backtracked, Uturned and changed their advice many times' when you are updating your advice when new information comes up.

So no. Not your point.

Just let me get this right. WHO update and advise new information. Yet another, someone who you clearly do not like, backtracks and Uturns. 

[billd766]

5 hours ago, placeholder said:

There were plenty of naysayers back when giving Boris advice like wear a mask and socially distance.  He may have  nearly died because he ignored them

And from some of the news I have seen many Brits are still ignoring the advice.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-55754961

[puchooay]

35 minutes ago, billd766 said:

And from some of the news I have seen many Brits are still ignoring the advice.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-55754961

Not to mention the 400 guest wedding in London. 

 

 

[elliss]

21 hours ago, Pro1Expat said:

The Care homes have been neglected which is a disgrace as this is where the majority of fatalities have occurred. Granted there have been a few deaths of people who were apparently in good health but the majority of deaths have all had underlying health problems and have been over 80 years old.

Instead of lock downs which only postpone the virus they should have taken care of the people in the Care homes, advised persons in their late 70's and older to stay away from crowds and let the rest make their own decisions.

 

    If i may quote , the good book .

    Three score and ten , is long enough .

    Then our bodies , shut down naturally ..

[VBF]

7 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

We are debating cause of death.

The cause of death is Covid. Regardless of what these peoples underlying conditions were, they died from the effects Covid had on their body. Many people who had underlying conditions could have lived for many, many years with their condition if it wasn't for Covid.

Again I will go back to my example. I person could have cancer. That cancer may kill them but equally so, they could live for many, many years. They then contract Covid but Covid doesn't make them die of cancer; it just takes advantage of an already weak body and they die of respiratory problems (the big killer with Covid).

Cause of death - Covid. 

But the  "already weak body" was weakened by the cancer, without which they would probably have survived the Covid to "live for many, many years."

So it's the combination of Cancer and Covid that was the cause of death.

 

I therefore revert to my previous comment:  "IMO death certificates and other records should be saying something like  "Cause of death <insert underlying condition> coupled with Covid-19"

 

We could go round this forever - clearly we must agree to differ.

Edited January 22, 2021 by VBF

[placeholder]

25 minutes ago, VBF said:

But the  "already weak body" was weakened by the cancer, without which they would probably have survived the Covid to "live for many, many years."

So it's the combination of Cancer and Covid that was the cause of death.

 

I therefore revert to my previous comment:  "IMO death certificates and other records should be saying something like  "Cause of death <insert underlying condition> coupled with Covid-19"

 

What makes you think they don't? During the flu season that's how deaths are recorded. I think that's how they're always recorded. But however they're recorded, the fact of excess mortality undermines claims that deaths are being unfairly ascribed to covid-19. In fact, if anything, epidemiologists say they're being underascribed.

[placeholder]

In fact, if anything deaths from covid have been underestimated because contagion by lots of other diseases have been suppressed thanks to the measures taken to subdue covid.

Coronavirus shutdowns have quashed nearly all other common viruses. But scientists say a rebound is coming.

 

Veteran virus trackers say they are chronicling something never before seen — the suppression of virtually every common respiratory and gastrointestinal virus besides the novel coronavirus. They theorize that is largely due to global shutdowns, mask-wearing and a host of other health protocols aimed at stemming the spread of the coronavirus.

 

These other viruses — including influenza A, influenza B, parainfluenza, norovirus, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), human metapneumovirus — all appear to be circulating at or near levels lower than ever previously measured. 

Coronavirus shutdowns have suppressed other viruses, but there will be a rebound - The Washington Post

If you don't want to follow the link the articles also says that the spread of bacteria that cause pneumonia and pertussis has also been largely curtailed.

[kingdong]

3 hours ago, puchooay said:

Not to mention the 400 guest wedding in London. 

 

 

And the boat loads of illegal migrants crossing the channel,and where did the new strain start? Kent where all the illegals were landing.

[VBF]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

What makes you think they don't? During the flu season that's how deaths are recorded. I think that's how they're always recorded. But however they're recorded, the fact of excess mortality undermines claims that deaths are being unfairly ascribed to covid-19. In fact, if anything, epidemiologists say they're being underascribed.

They don't. I was shown my friend's elderly mother's death cert.

It would be inappropriate to ask to scan it (obviously) but you'll have to take my word that CoD was Covid-19 (or SARS-CoV-2, or whatever the official nomenclature is)

[VBF]

Just now, kingdong said:

And the boat loads of illegal migrants crossing the channel,and where did the new strain start? Kent where all the illegals were landing.

It was discovered in Kent, started, we know not where.

[placeholder]

1 minute ago, VBF said:

They don't. I was shown my friend's elderly mother's death cert.

It would be inappropriate to ask to scan it (obviously) but you'll have to take my word that CoD was Covid-19 (or SARS-CoV-2, or whatever the official nomenclature is)

Even so, the fact of excess mortality is hard to explain away. Particularly in light of the fact that the transmission of other potentially fatal diseases has been suppressed by the measures taken to control Covid.

[VBF]

14 hours ago, placeholder said:

Even so, the fact of excess mortality is hard to explain away. Particularly in light of the fact that the transmission of other potentially fatal diseases has been suppressed by the measures taken to control Covid.

But the explanation would be far more believable if we were told the truth - in this instance on Death Certs, as we've discussed above.

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, VBF said:

But the explanation would be far more believable if we were told the truth - in this instance on Death Certs, as we've discussed above.

I guess things are different in the UK. In the USA the CDC requires all contributing factors to death. But it really doesn't make sense to say that somehow the excess mortality figure is not real. In fact, as I pointed out, most epidemiologists believe it's understated. Also, I found a link to the UK official death certificate form with instruction and it doesn't seem to comport with your claim. Maybe you didn't get to see all of it?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf

[johnnybangkok]

18 hours ago, VBF said:

But the  "already weak body" was weakened by the cancer, without which they would probably have survived the Covid to "live for many, many years."

So it's the combination of Cancer and Covid that was the cause of death.

 

I therefore revert to my previous comment:  "IMO death certificates and other records should be saying something like  "Cause of death <insert underlying condition> coupled with Covid-19"

 

We could go round this forever - clearly we must agree to differ.

'World Health Organisation guidelines state that “COVID-19 should be recorded on the medical certificate of cause of death for ALL decedents where the disease, or is assumed to have caused, or contributed to death, i.e. COVID-19 is the underlying cause of death”. Such an example would be someone who has developed pneumonia as a result of COVID-19, dies from acute respiratory distress. Alternatively, COVID-19 may be present on the death certificate as a significant condition contributing to death but not the underlying cause. These guidelines are clear that in such cases these deaths “are not deaths due to COVID-19 and should not be certified as such”:

 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/death-certificate-data-covid-19-as-the-underlying-cause-of-death/

[VBF]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

I guess things are different in the UK. In the USA the CDC requires all contributing factors to death. But it really doesn't make sense to say that somehow the excess mortality figure is not real. In fact, as I pointed out, most epidemiologists believe it's understated. Also, I found a link to the UK official death certificate form with instruction and it doesn't seem to comport with your claim. Maybe you didn't get to see all of it?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/877302/guidance-for-doctors-completing-medical-certificates-of-cause-of-death-covid-19.pdf

Read my post above about "my friend's elderly mother's death cert." I actually read the original cert in its entirety when my friend showed me.

 

However, in the link you posted, which I had not seen before, in Para 4 it says "doctors are expected to state the cause of death to the best of their knowledge and belief; they are not expected to be infallible"

Then in Para 4.1 entitled  "Sequence leading to death, underlying cause and contributory causes" there is guidance as to what combination of ailments is the CoD

Later there is a paragraph entitled "More than one disease may have led to death"

 

Going back to the second para of the document, it states that it's a guidance document    "intended to complement the notes for doctors in the front of every book of MCCDs." not an absolute instruction.

 

To me, this says that what you're saying SHOULD indeed be how deaths are recorded but clearly this guidance is not being followed, at least in some cases.

 

This also tends to support what @johnnybangkok says above

With this amount of ambiguity, it's not surprising that we cannot agree!

Edited January 23, 2021 by VBF
Clarity

[rickudon]

7 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

'World Health Organisation guidelines state that “COVID-19 should be recorded on the medical certificate of cause of death for ALL decedents where the disease, or is assumed to have caused, or contributed to death, i.e. COVID-19 is the underlying cause of death”. Such an example would be someone who has developed pneumonia as a result of COVID-19, dies from acute respiratory distress. Alternatively, COVID-19 may be present on the death certificate as a significant condition contributing to death but not the underlying cause. These guidelines are clear that in such cases these deaths “are not deaths due to COVID-19 and should not be certified as such”:

 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/death-certificate-data-covid-19-as-the-underlying-cause-of-death/

Look at excess death rate - about 11% for last year - highest since 1940. That is the measure of how many people die because of Covid. And that figure is similar to  all Covid reported deaths.