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Australia laments Thailand’s high wine tax as excise dept delivers bitter news


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1 hour ago, indieke said:

At least you got some valuable information I hope......????

No not really as have been collecting fine wines for 50 yrs and my concern was with the adding of fruit juice to the fermentation process in some wines and how it can deceive some people. 

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11 minutes ago, xylophone said:

No not really as have been collecting fine wines for 50 yrs and my concern was with the adding of fruit juice to the fermentation process in some wines and how it can deceive some people. 

 That's better than the Austrians who were adding  anti-freeze.  (Austrians note, not Australians)

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14 minutes ago, lungbing said:

 That's better than the Austrians who were adding  anti-freeze.  (Austrians note, not Australians)

Very true, and that scandal evolved sometime in the 80s when a few Austrian winemakers were adding glycol as a sweetening agent to their wines!!

 

Another little-known addition to an Italian wine was the fact that ground-down black umbrella handles were added to a wine to give it more colour, this from a local manufacturer who had a surplus of these umbrella handles and teamed up with a winemaker to add them to "fortify" the wine.

 

I was also visiting a winemaker in the Languedoc, when I saw a rat run along the edge of the VAT and fall into the wine, and remarked upon this, and the winemaker said that it happens quite often and they just let the wine ferment without doing anything about it.

 

Luckily enough these are rare instances and doesn't detract from the fact that there are some wonderful wines made around the world.

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20 hours ago, xylophone said:

No not really as have been collecting fine wines for 50 yrs and my concern was with the adding of fruit juice to the fermentation process in some wines and how it can deceive some people. 

 

Sorry to hear, I can do nothing for you. You broke my heart now. Know that some of the regions I mentioned, like the vineyards by Canberra lake, Mudgee, are not that known by the public. So if ever you go to Australia, you could still discover some things, you in your absolute wisdom, never tasted.  I am sure, you were also thrilled by an Yquem 1904, as I was. Much more value then a Petrus 82.

 

For your fruitwine, I can confirm this. One drop of fruit juice , and it can be labeled as so. Problem is that there is not only fruit that is your concern, but other substances to make it drinkable.  You should also wonder about sulfites in normal wine.  

 

But sure I must have nothing interesting to say, when I probably learned nothing from my father, who started his wine business in 1946.

 

   

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18 minutes ago, indieke said:

 

Sorry to hear, I can do nothing for you. You broke my heart now. Know that some of the regions I mentioned, like the vineyards by Canberra lake, Mudgee, are not that known by the public. So if ever you go to Australia, you could still discover some things, you in your absolute wisdom, never tasted.  I am sure, you were also thrilled by an Yquem 1904, as I was. Much more value then a Petrus 82.

 

For your fruitwine, I can confirm this. One drop of fruit juice , and it can be labeled as so. Problem is that there is not only fruit that is your concern, but other substances to make it drinkable.  You should also wonder about sulfites in normal wine.  

 

But sure I must have nothing interesting to say, when I probably learned nothing from my father, who started his wine business in 1946.

 

   

I'm sure that you mean well dear chap, but I don't need to know about the wines you have drunk in the past, because I could probably match most of them, and then some.

 

However I don't think I have a need to listen to you because you are wrong on a couple of counts; firstly the law here states that fruit wine to be classed as so has to be a minimum of 15% fruit juice, not the "one drop" that you mention.

 

And secondly, yes I know all about the sulphites, and have been on many vineyards in France and New Zealand when the grapes are being picked and have seen the treatment they get prior to that and afterwards, and I have no problem with the sulphites which are added. Have also tasted a biodynamique Burgundy from Mme Leroy, and several other of that ilk, and appreciate the difference.

 

And for the record, "so if you ever go to Australia you could still discover......", was a bit precious as I have been to Australia many times, visited  a few vineyards (as I have in New Zealand) and even lived there for a while, and have many relatives in that part of the world.

 

And I have personally discussed wine with Jean Michel Cazes on his Lynch Bages estate in France, when I was a guest of his at a private wine tasting, and of course lunch at his Michelin starred restaurant; also discussed wine with M Ogier in the northern Rhône, as well as picking and eating few berries from the vines at Château Petrus, discussing the last harvest with Ferraud Laurence at Dom de Pegau and staying at Château la Bastide and enjoying a fabulous dinner with the owner and sampling some of his wines, as well as sampling a bottle of Penfold's Grange, and getting his feedback on that, which was surprising.

 

I could go on, but it's not really worth it because it becomes what we call in NZ (and OZ), a "p1ssing contest", and now I know that you in your absolute wisdom do not know what constitutes a "fruit wine", no need to take it any further!

 

Perhaps you should have listened more closely to your father!

 

You may wish to peruse this link at your leisure: –


https://www.matthewclark.co.uk/about-us/history/ 
 

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16 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I'm sure that you mean well dear chap, but I don't need to know about the wines you have drunk in the past, because I could probably match most of them, and then some.

 

However I don't think I have a need to listen to you because you are wrong on a couple of counts; firstly the law here states that fruit wine to be classed as so has to be a minimum of 15% fruit juice, not the "one drop" that you mention.

 

And secondly, yes I know all about the sulphites, and have been on many vineyards in France and New Zealand when the grapes are being picked and have seen the treatment they get prior to that and afterwards, and I have no problem with the sulphites which are added. Have also tasted a biodynamique Burgundy from Mme Leroy, and several other of that ilk, and appreciate the difference.

 

And for the record, "so if you ever go to Australia you could still discover......", was a bit precious as I have been to Australia many times, visited  a few vineyards (as I have in New Zealand) and even lived there for a while, and have many relatives in that part of the world.

 

And I have personally discussed wine with Jean Michel Cazes on his Lynch Bages estate in France, when I was a guest of his at a private wine tasting, and of course lunch at his Michelin starred restaurant; also discussed wine with M Ogier in the northern Rhône, as well as picking and eating few berries from the vines at Château Petrus, discussing the last harvest with Ferraud Laurence at Dom de Pegau and staying at Château la Bastide and enjoying a fabulous dinner with the owner and sampling some of his wines, as well as sampling a bottle of Penfold's Grange, and getting his feedback on that, which was surprising.

 

I could go on, but it's not really worth it because it becomes what we call in NZ (and OZ), a "p1ssing contest", and now I know that you in your absolute wisdom do not know what constitutes a "fruit wine", no need to take it any further!

 

Perhaps you should have listened more closely to your father!

 

You may wish to peruse this link at your leisure: –


https://www.matthewclark.co.uk/about-us/history/ 
 

 

Oh ok, you are a real wine snob then. Because real wine lovers, will ALWAYS enjoy a new discovery and never think they seen it all.  And the names of people you met, not impress me either. On the contrary, I will never forget the encounter with the old doctor, a real wine enthousiast, at Canberra Lake. Simple and humble.

 

I listen very well to my father, thank you. And we did well together, he more on Classic French wine and me introducing in the company New World  Wines. I not even mention the people we met, as my father knew owners in France even before World war 2, and imported directly, even when after that it was common after to buy from the brokers at the place de Bordeaux.

 

But you not understand my statement. In real life, I had colleagues I learned from and they did from my experiences. My experience, probably yours, is nothing compared to some great sommeliers, as my friend William Wouters. Not because he is world champion, but his passion about the product.  Because they really are solicitated by owners , wine-merchants as my self and they have even more opportunity then you and me to have encounter reference bottles. 

 

So I am not going to discuss, if you <deleted> higher then me. Thing is I love to encounter new people, still learn from their experiences, as sometimes I can surprise them with some of mine.  I be even interested, to know what you found on the Thai market, which is a cry for wine lovers. I do have some connections with importers,  who did made me discover fine things, but not for every day use.  I am sure I could learn a lot from you too, even as you in all your greatness, not seem to be able to learn anything from another wine-lover as yourself.    

 

Enjoy!

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1 minute ago, indieke said:

 

Oh ok, you are a real wine snob then. Because real wine lovers, will ALWAYS enjoy a new discovery and never think they seen it all.  And the names of people you met, not impress me either. On the contrary, I will never forget the encounter with the old doctor, a real wine enthousiast, at Canberra Lake. Simple and humble.

 

I listen very well to my father, thank you. And we did well together, he more on Classic French wine and me introducing in the company New World  Wines. I not even mention the people we met, as my father knew owners in France even before World war 2, and imported directly, even when after that it was common after to buy from the brokers at the place de Bordeaux.

 

But you not understand my statement. In real life, I had colleagues I learned from and they did from my experiences. My experience, probably yours, is nothing compared to some great sommeliers, as my friend William Wouters. Not because he is world champion, but his passion about the product.  Because they really are solicitated by owners , wine-merchants as my self and they have even more opportunity then you and me to have encounter reference bottles. 

 

So I am not going to discuss, if you <deleted> higher then me. Thing is I love to encounter new people, still learn from their experiences, as sometimes I can surprise them with some of mine.  I be even interested, to know what you found on the Thai market, which is a cry for wine lovers. I do have some connections with importers,  who did made me discover fine things, but not for every day use.  I am sure I could learn a lot from you too, even as you in all your greatness, not seem to be able to learn anything from another wine-lover as yourself.    

 

Enjoy!

I do enjoy my wine, and I think you'll find it was you who detailed your experiences with Petrus and Yquem 1904, especially when you wrote, "I am sure, you were also thrilled by an Yquem 1904, as I was. Much more value then a Petrus 82."

 

And if that's not being a complete and utter snob, then I don't know what is. Then suggesting that if I ever went to Australia I could discover some things.......pfff.

 

And this after you picked up on something that another poster has said (not me) and later on you managed to get the percentage of fruit juice needed to be added to a wine to label it "fruit wine", completely wrong.

 

I have never considered myself a wine snob, in fact I have drunk some of the most disgusting wines on the planet (think Libyan wine in the 60s) and made some of my own, something that a supposed wine snob would never do – – so I would suggest that you look in the mirror if you wanted to see a wine snob, this especially after your comments in two posts.

 

But, moving along, I have posted on a couple of threads regarding what I consider to be "good value" wines here in Phuket, one was originally the "Montclair wine thread" (not about good Montclair wine I may add) and another has been recently "Phuket wine bargains" and on that thread several wine drinkers have been in touch and we tip each other off where we find a good wine/one on special/one mispriced so we can snap the bargains up.

 

I'm always keen to learn, but when you said in one of your posts, "at least you got some valuable information I hope.....". It's not a good starting point when you pointed out some Australian wine information which most everybody would know, but then again was never asked for, as if you were a teacher, teaching a class – – a little condescending if anything.

 

Let's hope that we can get back on a level footing, as the saying goes.
 

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1 hour ago, xylophone said:

I do enjoy my wine, and I think you'll find it was you who detailed your experiences with Petrus and Yquem 1904, especially when you wrote, "I am sure, you were also thrilled by an Yquem 1904, as I was. Much more value then a Petrus 82."

 

And if that's not being a complete and utter snob, then I don't know what is. Then suggesting that if I ever went to Australia I could discover some things.......pfff.

 

And this after you picked up on something that another poster has said (not me) and later on you managed to get the percentage of fruit juice needed to be added to a wine to label it "fruit wine", completely wrong.

 

I have never considered myself a wine snob, in fact I have drunk some of the most disgusting wines on the planet (think Libyan wine in the 60s) and made some of my own, something that a supposed wine snob would never do – – so I would suggest that you look in the mirror if you wanted to see a wine snob, this especially after your comments in two posts.

 

But, moving along, I have posted on a couple of threads regarding what I consider to be "good value" wines here in Phuket, one was originally the "Montclair wine thread" (not about good Montclair wine I may add) and another has been recently "Phuket wine bargains" and on that thread several wine drinkers have been in touch and we tip each other off where we find a good wine/one on special/one mispriced so we can snap the bargains up.

 

I'm always keen to learn, but when you said in one of your posts, "at least you got some valuable information I hope.....". It's not a good starting point when you pointed out some Australian wine information which most everybody would know, but then again was never asked for, as if you were a teacher, teaching a class – – a little condescending if anything.

 

Let's hope that we can get back on a level footing, as the saying goes.
 

Most people even not know where Mudgee is.......And  that there is wine in Canberra. Good if you know then. About "fruit wine", that you keep putting under my nose, I know nothing about, good for you that you are an expert in these, I am hanging on your lips.  I just inform, what I heard what happens, by a producer, I never participate in the process. And  it is not that a drop of juice, is not legal to call it that way, that it is not done so by producer. Again, I leave you as an expert in that matter. I only mentioned Yquem and Petrus, not to be treated as the village idiot, and to just show that I am not a fruit wine drinker.

 

But as you said, I hope we can have some good experiences to share on other posts....   

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5 hours ago, xylophone said:

You may wish to peruse this link at your leisure: –


https://www.matthewclark.co.uk/about-us/history/ 

Hi Xylo - this ref because you were part of this?

If so I think I had an interview with them back in the late 70s early 80s.......

 

Do you know what happened to the poster Grant who used to have some good insights into current trade practices?

 

To reinforce one of your recs I am drinking the Taras Cab Sauv - 515 baht in Best Supermarket in Pattaya. Unfortunately I have not been able to find Hopes End in Villa for a while :thumbsup:

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14 hours ago, indieke said:

Most people even not know where Mudgee is.......And  that there is wine in Canberra. Good if you know then. About "fruit wine", that you keep putting under my nose, I know nothing about, good for you that you are an expert in these, I am hanging on your lips.  I just inform, what I heard what happens, by a producer, I never participate in the process. And  it is not that a drop of juice, is not legal to call it that way, that it is not done so by producer. Again, I leave you as an expert in that matter. I only mentioned Yquem and Petrus, not to be treated as the village idiot, and to just show that I am not a fruit wine drinker.

 

But as you said, I hope we can have some good experiences to share on other posts....   

There are many Australians here, as well as New Zealanders who would know a little bit about the wine areas in Australia, and if they don't know enough, they can always research it on the Internet. However, good that another area of good wine can be bought to one's attention.

 

I think you missed the point about the fruit wine, which was very much tied in with the heading of the thread, and it has to do with the "high wine tax" area, and there are hundreds of posts in the "Montclair" thread regarding this subject, and it's not that I'm an expert, just that I like to know what I'm drinking, so your assertion that one drop of fruit juice in a wine can label it "fruit wine" is wrong I'm afraid.

 

Also, it is a process which is initiated by the producer in most cases, and is designed to get round excise duty and the following countries (that I know of) produce fruit wine by adding fruit juice to the fermentation process: – Australia, New Zealand, France, South Africa, Italy, Chile and probably a few more that I don't know about.

 

Wine Connection here in Thailand did something similar with their imported wines and also managed to get round tax/duty by importing grape juice to Vietnam and having it fermented and bottled there, whereas Montclair, which was the subject, as I said, of hundreds of posts, did something similar, however I notice that they have completely omitted the wording "fruit wine" from their products at the moment, and that was commented on, but then again this being Thailand, the company is owned by the wealthy can more or less do what they want.

 

Just had a sudden thought on that........the Montclair wine in plastic casks did see a quite substantial drop in the alcohol content of the wine, along with the cost, so it's quite possible that rather than having fruit juice fermented with the product, it could be added afterwards??? 

 

So that's cleared the mystery about my fruit wine knowledge I hope.

 

And you will notice in the post below yours that one poster has already tried one of the wines I recommended, and that was the reason I started posting on that, because there are many folks here who cannot afford to pay extortionate prices for wine, so if I manage to seek out a few bargains for them (and me of course) then it's a win-win situation.

 

My days of drinking very fine wine are now over, and every so often I do reach out and buy an expensive Burgundy, only to be totally disappointed by the end product, and a lot of that has got to do with the storage over here as well as the fact that Thailand is not considered a "wine consumption country".

 

I find the best value for money to be had amongst Australian and Italian wines at the moment, although I'm not overly keen on the Australian 14.5 % (plus) blockbusters as there are better (IMO) OZ wines out there, and there are some very well made Italian wines in the appassimento style, so searching for good wines is part of my routine here.

 

However, best that we let the thread get back on course because who knows what the Thai government will do next that will spoil it for wine lovers here.
 

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12 hours ago, topt said:

Hi Xylo - this ref because you were part of this?

If so I think I had an interview with them back in the late 70s early 80s.......

 

Do you know what happened to the poster Grant who used to have some good insights into current trade practices?

 

To reinforce one of your recs I am drinking the Taras Cab Sauv - 515 baht in Best Supermarket in Pattaya. Unfortunately I have not been able to find Hopes End in Villa for a while :thumbsup:

Hi topt, just to answer your question regarding the link I put on on a previous post, I was good friends with David and Michael Cox who were part of the Matthew Clark family, and indeed I enjoyed some privileges as regards their wine, and being able to buy Taittinger champagne "cheaply" was one of them.

 

Also being able to enjoy some full-bodied wines from South America, which were quite a rarity back in the mid-to-late 70s in the UK.

 

Unfortunately Michael Cox passed away unexpectedly a few years ago, at an early age (or far too early to leave this world) however I'm still in touch with David who is involved in the wine industry in the UK in charities, and support of former members, not to mention of exporting countries like New Zealand.

 

Maybe your life would have taken a completely different path had you been welcomed into the Matthew Clark family back in those days??

 

As for Grant, I'm not sure what happened to him, and I used to look forward to his posts here because he was a very knowledgeable man and the wine industry was his profession and passion, so it would be good to see him back if he is still around.

 

Good on you for trying the Taras, because in my opinion it's good value for money and just that little bit of oak in the fermentation process does seem to lift it a little.

 

Luckily enough I can still buy Hopes End here in Phuket, and it's priced at 450 baht in my Ma and Pa supermarket, and as it has aged a little in bottle, for me it has got even more enjoyable.

 

I know I shouldn't be rattling on because this forum is about something else, but I did come across a little anomaly which I enjoyed, in as much as I have steered clear of Montclair in the past because of its fruit wine Association, however I did notice in my little supermarket, a Montclair labelled Shiraz, and it had the orange tax sticker on it, so that indicated it was "produced" here in Thailand and not imported.

 

However to counter that it stated it was a Shiraz from Langhorne Creek (Australia as you know) so I can only assume that it was brought into the country like so many of the other Montclair products, as grape juice and fermented here, with no fruit juice added.

 

It seems strange, however I do recall that Montclair tried to lift their brand and position in the market by selling some wine from the better areas of Australia, but the wine was priced to highly, and the brand was damaged (my belief) so they weren't on sale for long.

 

Perhaps this one I found is part of the remnants of that exercise, but for 525 baht a bottle, it was a good wine......and now here's the rider; I don't believe it was a wine with fruit juice added, and I never thought I'd say this, but if it was, then I'd certainly buy some more of it because the wine was good!!!

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Would be interesting to get a link to your comments, of wine here.  Or start a new "what you drank last night, to know what to avoid too.

 

Probably I again not learn you anything but the wineclub in Royal Cliff in Pattaya has interesting evenings. Some nice wines I tasted there, from Rhône (favorite region) to California.  Silverado, Cabernet Sauvignon 2013, if I remember well elaborated with Chateau Margaux, was impressive, but at 2500 Baht, not a bargain, but at least at market price.  Of course being in Phuket, it is a bit far to attend, although it is every 3 months.

 

https://www.royalcliff.com/devine-wine-club/

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34 minutes ago, indieke said:

Would be interesting to get a link to your comments, of wine here.  Or start a new "what you drank last night, to know what to avoid too.

 

Probably I again not learn you anything but the wineclub in Royal Cliff in Pattaya has interesting evenings. Some nice wines I tasted there, from Rhône (favorite region) to California.  Silverado, Cabernet Sauvignon 2013, if I remember well elaborated with Chateau Margaux, was impressive, but at 2500 Baht, not a bargain, but at least at market price.  Of course being in Phuket, it is a bit far to attend, although it is every 3 months.

 

https://www.royalcliff.com/devine-wine-club/

Thanks for the link to the Royal Cliff, and the dinner and wine tastings certainly look very good indeed, and for the record, the Rhône is one of my favourite regions, with  Cote Rotie being a particular favourite, and I also long for the Chateauneuf du Papes made in the old style using more than the usual GSM grape mix, so have gone off them a little these days.

 

I searched high and low for the Montclair thread, which as I said was many hundreds of posts (plus) long, and I think that's why they closed it, so perhaps it's unavailable now, or only available through one of the moderators?

 

I did however find the thread which was entitled "Red Wine bargains in Phuket" whereupon I have put several wines which I believe represent good value, and bear in mind that this was aimed at "everyday" expats here.

 

You mentioned California, and going to a different part of the country, may I recommend a Syrah from Washington State, called Ch Ste Michelle,  as I think it is a hidden gem, and is available at Villa Market.
 

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On 1/31/2021 at 2:27 PM, xylophone said:

Thanks for the link to the Royal Cliff, and the dinner and wine tastings certainly look very good indeed, and for the record, the Rhône is one of my favourite regions, with  Cote Rotie being a particular favourite, and I also long for the Chateauneuf du Papes made in the old style using more than the usual GSM grape mix, so have gone off them a little these days.

 

I searched high and low for the Montclair thread, which as I said was many hundreds of posts (plus) long, and I think that's why they closed it, so perhaps it's unavailable now, or only available through one of the moderators?

 

I did however find the thread which was entitled "Red Wine bargains in Phuket" whereupon I have put several wines which I believe represent good value, and bear in mind that this was aimed at "everyday" expats here.

 

You mentioned California, and going to a different part of the country, may I recommend a Syrah from Washington State, called Ch Ste Michelle,  as I think it is a hidden gem, and is available at Villa Market.
 

 

Thank you. Had this wine some years ago. I will try it again. Northern Rhône, of course Côte - Rôtie is surely fabulous, and among the best wines in the world.  But prices for this nectar are high. I turn to St Joseph, Crozes Hermitage, smaller villages, but with a good producer, better price quality. I have here   Chapoutier wines at reasonable prices. You probably know, the Maison, has bought estates in Australia too, where they make wines, close in style to the French one's. These I can find here in Pattaya, but with wholesaler, at more then reasonable prices, like the "Mathilda"  Tournon from Victoria. These wines are very pure, but maybe need some more aging. But I buy this less then 600 Baht.  Here in Pattaya, bigger companies are presented, with wines you not find in the supermarket.  Pages and pages of wine.  

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1 hour ago, indieke said:

 

Thank you. Had this wine some years ago. I will try it again. Northern Rhône, of course Côte - Rôtie is surely fabulous, and among the best wines in the world.  But prices for this nectar are high. I turn to St Joseph, Crozes Hermitage, smaller villages, but with a good producer, better price quality. I have here   Chapoutier wines at reasonable prices. You probably know, the Maison, has bought estates in Australia too, where they make wines, close in style to the French one's. These I can find here in Pattaya, but with wholesaler, at more then reasonable prices, like the "Mathilda"  Tournon from Victoria. These wines are very pure, but maybe need some more aging. But I buy this less then 600 Baht.  Here in Pattaya, bigger companies are presented, with wines you not find in the supermarket.  Pages and pages of wine.  

Well, I have to say "thank you" to you as well because even though I have the Vinum Lector wine list here on my computer, and I occasionally order from them, especially the Appasimento from Veneto (which I can recommend) I had never noticed the Tournon on the list!

 

So it will be on my next order.

 

I was extremely lucky in New Zealand when I got to know the "cellar master" of a large wine retailer and we were talking about Cote Rotie, and this very large old building did actually have a very large cellar where they kept their wine, and they were shortly going to have a "clear out" of wine. 

 

Anyway he telephoned me a couple of days later and asked me to come along very quickly, so I did and underneath quite a bit of dust and rubbish there were a few cases of Cote Rotie from Jaboulet, Guigal and Chapoutier! Quite how they had gone unnoticed was hard to fathom, however the company had been taken over a few years previously so perhaps the stock-taking wasn't up to standard?

 

So I asked the price, which I thought was very reasonable for a wine like that, and I bought every bottle they had which would have been about sixty bottles, and I enjoyed them for many years to come.

 

This even more so because I knew several of the top chefs in Auckland and one of them I had been friends with for some time, and he let me bring my own bottle along so I could enjoy it with one of his prized dishes, which was venison with a blackberry and port wine sauce – – it was heaven.
 
Will give you my thoughts on the Tournon.
 

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The Tournon has different qualities.  If my memory serves  me well, the Mathilda is only been in tanks, and not aged in wooden casks.  The other one's did, but need more time to spend in the bottle to fully enjoy them.  There is also the Victoria wine, made with Terlato. More expensive, but also much more complex. Strange enough, not so much more, then I bought them in France, considering the taxes. 

 

https://www.chapoutier.com/en/partnerships/terlato-and-chapoutier/

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14 minutes ago, indieke said:

The Tournon has different qualities.  If my memory serves  me well, the Mathilda is only been in tanks, and not aged in wooden casks.  The other one's did, but need more time to spend in the bottle to fully enjoy them.  There is also the Victoria wine, made with Terlato. More expensive, but also much more complex. Strange enough, not so much more, then I bought them in France, considering the taxes. 

I will give the Tournon a try and although it has been fermented and aged in stainless steel or concrete tanks, I have no problem with that, although I have to admit I do like the extra flavours of vanillin that oak imparts to the wines, but have tasted other wines like this (one vineyard in Languedoc, which name I cannot remember now) and provided they are given time, have been very agreeable.

 

Thanks for the tip.

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On 2/2/2021 at 12:00 PM, indieke said:

The Tournon has different qualities.

No doubt about it, the Tournon is a well crafted wine and I'm going to go out on the limb a little here when describing it.

 

It has none of the heavy upfront fruit driven characteristics of many Australian wines, and that is not a problem, because it is more restrained, and certainly the ageing in concrete tanks would have a lot to do with that, because no wood characteristics are imparted to the wine.

 

In fact I would say it is almost a cross between an Australian wine and one from the Northern Rhône, and it will open up given a little more time.

 

Now here's where I may be wrong, but I'm giving it a shot – – I wonder if the Syrah/Shiraz grapes used were actually from the imported Rhône clones?? I do know that quite a few cuttings were brought into Western Australia back in the 1800s, and since then have been cloned and re-cloned, but perhaps there is a strain which has still survived/available. Or of course it could be wishful thinking on my part! Or of course it could be that the French influence has come to bear on the winemaking process, thereby affecting the finished product?

 

Whatever the case may be, this certainly was not a typical Australian wine.

 

In addition I ordered a dozen mixed bottles from the wine list I sent you and I have discovered a little gem, which I will order again, this time the full 12 bottles of that particular wine.

 

And I ordered some more Appassimento as it has become a favourite of mine. So when I order again, I will add some of the Tournon.....

 

 

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On 2/13/2021 at 6:04 PM, xylophone said:

No doubt about it, the Tournon is a well crafted wine and I'm going to go out on the limb a little here when describing it.

 

It has none of the heavy upfront fruit driven characteristics of many Australian wines, and that is not a problem, because it is more restrained, and certainly the ageing in concrete tanks would have a lot to do with that, because no wood characteristics are imparted to the wine.

 

In fact I would say it is almost a cross between an Australian wine and one from the Northern Rhône, and it will open up given a little more time.

 

Now here's where I may be wrong, but I'm giving it a shot – – I wonder if the Syrah/Shiraz grapes used were actually from the imported Rhône clones?? I do know that quite a few cuttings were brought into Western Australia back in the 1800s, and since then have been cloned and re-cloned, but perhaps there is a strain which has still survived/available. Or of course it could be wishful thinking on my part! Or of course it could be that the French influence has come to bear on the winemaking process, thereby affecting the finished product?

 

Whatever the case may be, this certainly was not a typical Australian wine.

 

In addition I ordered a dozen mixed bottles from the wine list I sent you and I have discovered a little gem, which I will order again, this time the full 12 bottles of that particular wine.

 

And I ordered some more Appassimento as it has become a favourite of mine. So when I order again, I will add some of the Tournon.....

 

 

 

Only saw your message now. As the roots of the owner, is in Northern Rhône, maybe it is just the "imported" wine making.  Like harvest, like a certain style, craftsmanship, that is just why it is close to its style. The fact that it indeed aged in tanks and not got heavy wood treatment, will add to this impression. You could write to the estate to be sure. But I have noticed that foreign wine-crafters  managed to keep their style, even in very different countries, which proves that the process ofe wine-making became more and more important over the last 30 years.

 

In New Zealand, I like Henri Bourgeois, a wine maker of the Loire, his Clos Henri. He keeps the Pinot Noir style of the  New World, but it is so profound (here more wood though), that it is very different still from other offering. Not know if imported in Thailand....  

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On 1/26/2021 at 10:07 AM, spidermike007 said:

Wine tariffs here are dumb and dumber. No doubt the wine duty was about a small lobby, that paid a senator to pass anti farang wine legislation, to promote a handful of very inferior domestic wineries. A myopic policy, that staggers the imagination. To think of the hundreds of billions of baht the country is losing every year. If the duty was only 70%, or even 100%, the wine industry here would explode. It would benefit tourism, by attracting a far higher level of tourist, the ones the TAT is incessantly talking about wanting to attract!

 

The hotel industry, restaurants, and the people, and the ex-pats, could choose from good wine, at fair prices. As it stands now, a decent bottle here costs in excess of 1,000 baht. And at the restaurants, the prices of good wine is downright silly. I have seen house wines, that cost 1,500 baht, that are available in Los Angeles for $4. Good wines that I pay $30-40 for in LA, cost 6,000 baht here, if you can find them. And who is going to pay that kind of money for a wine that is 80% less overseas? It is a bit like an ignorant hi-so guy paying 15,000,000 baht for a Porsche 911 here, that cost $120,000 in the US.


I am very passionate about wine. I tend to drink wine that is in the $15-50 range, in the US. Some of these wines are simply stunning. Single vineyard pinot noirs, McLaren Shiraz, some outstanding wines from the Southern Rhone, like Chateauneuf, and Gigondas. Some very good ones for $30, to $50. Not cheap. But wines that inspire. I am not drinking to get loaded. I am drinking wine for inspiration, and exhilaration. Few of those wines are even available here, and if any can be found, they are $100 to $200. There is no way on earth I am going to spend that on a bottle of wine here. So, I tend not to drink wine here. Or the occasional decent bottle of Italian or Australian wine, that sets me back 1200 baht, and is decent at best.


These kind of regressive, closed minded, nationalistic, ignorant policies are what I would refer to as shooting oneself in one's foot. That is what the Thai government has done. They have sabotaged a potentially multi billion dollar industry, and denied themselves billions of dollars in duty, that we would be happy to pay, if the numbers made sense. You lower the duty to a reasonable level of 70%, you increase sales 8x, and you have more than made up for the difference, and added a million jobs, nationwide.

 

Oh, sorry. I forgot. Making sense, and using reason are not to be expected here, especially by members of this stunningly incompetent government, who have a hard time coming up with coherent and intelligent policy.

for 'exhilaration' and 'inspiration'  ???? I believe I just read the biggest bs post of 2021 and we're just starting..

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24 minutes ago, indieke said:

 

Only saw your message now. As the roots of the owner, is in Northern Rhône, maybe it is just the "imported" wine making.  Like harvest, like a certain style, craftsmanship, that is just why it is close to its style. The fact that it indeed aged in tanks and not got heavy wood treatment, will add to this impression. You could write to the estate to be sure. But I have noticed that foreign wine-crafters  managed to keep their style, even in very different countries, which proves that the process ofe wine-making became more and more important over the last 30 years.

 

In New Zealand, I like Henri Bourgeois, a wine maker of the Loire, his Clos Henri. He keeps the Pinot Noir style of the  New World, but it is so profound (here more wood though), that it is very different still from other offering. Not know if imported in Thailand....  

Agree that wine methods and techniques are very transportable and that is sometimes evident in the South American wines which have French roots, as the saying goes.

 

There was a French winemaker in Marlborough and I tasted his wines some 20 or more years ago and I'm not a great fan of New Zealand Pinot Noir, though some people seem to rave about it, but this particular winemaker was able to produce Pinot Noir with just that "French edge" to it and I thought it was a lovely wine, and it was not expensive. There was a rumour that he had imported some old wine barrels from Burgundy in order to get the particular flavour, however not sure about that.

 

Much of the Cote Rotie wine is aged in new oak although it varies from winemaker to winemaker, and as an example, I was speaking to Mr Ogier about the amount of Viognier he allowed in his Cote Rotie wines, and he was taken aback that I should mention it!! He then said that perhaps there were some "white grapes" in amongst the Syrah but he was pretty sure that the pickers ate them, rather than them finding their way into his wine!

 

Of course we all know that up to 20% of Viognier is allowed in that wine, and it does soften it a little and give it just a hint of perfume, which I quite like. But it seems that whilst some embrace it, others don't.

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31 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Agree that wine methods and techniques are very transportable and that is sometimes evident in the South American wines which have French roots, as the saying goes.

 

There was a French winemaker in Marlborough and I tasted his wines some 20 or more years ago and I'm not a great fan of New Zealand Pinot Noir, though some people seem to rave about it, but this particular winemaker was able to produce Pinot Noir with just that "French edge" to it and I thought it was a lovely wine, and it was not expensive. There was a rumour that he had imported some old wine barrels from Burgundy in order to get the particular flavour, however not sure about that.

 

Much of the Cote Rotie wine is aged in new oak although it varies from winemaker to winemaker, and as an example, I was speaking to Mr Ogier about the amount of Viognier he allowed in his Cote Rotie wines, and he was taken aback that I should mention it!! He then said that perhaps there were some "white grapes" in amongst the Syrah but he was pretty sure that the pickers ate them, rather than them finding their way into his wine!

 

Of course we all know that up to 20% of Viognier is allowed in that wine, and it does soften it a little and give it just a hint of perfume, which I quite like. But it seems that whilst some embrace it, others don't.

OOPS, I tried to edit my post, but couldn't. Just realised that I had gone off topic quite considerably and wanted to apologise. Sorry folks.

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On 1/26/2021 at 9:50 AM, Fex Bluse said:

More like sake (Japanese) and baijou (Chinese) and soju (Korean) I think 

 

I would not be surprised if the Thais single out wine because it's mostly a westerner drink. 

True to some extent but more and more Thais are drinking wine.

 

My Thai son loves red, his buddies also, when they come to his house they check his red wine collection (mostly gifts). They always have 2 maybe 3 glasses.

 

But son won't let them drink if they don't come with their wives or GFs and unless the wife/GF agrees to drive home. 

 

There's always a few Thai folks buying wine in the supermarkets we go to.

 

Edited by scorecard
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