UK could become 'a failed state' without reform, former UK PM Brown says

[vogie]

26 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

   2 hours ago,  vogie said: 

...he will go down in history as one of our all time greatest leaders, ...

 

Whoa there Kimosabe. Put that pipe down and walk away (NanLaew)

 

He will go down in history......that is certain.

 

 

Oh....and the end of the Union....just to stick the (jack) boot in.

I think you are spending too much time on Twitter. There is a difference of opinion between a leaver and a remainer, a remainer is willing to sacrifice some of the UKs sovereignty for a seat at the table whereas a leaver is not, infact the majority of the country is of the same belief. 

And as for saying its the end of the Union that is just stirring the soup, I know you won't like it but the UK aint going anywhere, it is just remainer hype. 

[2530Ubon]

 

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

I think you are spending too much time on Twitter. There is a difference of opinion between a leaver and a remainer, a remainer is willing to sacrifice some of the UKs sovereignty for a seat at the table whereas a leaver is not, infact the majority of the country is of the same belief.

 

NOPE! The majority of the UK thinks it was a mistake. The UK is just as divided on Brexit as Scotland is divided on independence. The whole UK is completely divided on a plethora of issues, ergo, Mr G. Brown is quite correct. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-55416939

During the last three months, on average, 39% have said that the decision was right, while 49% have stated it was wrong

[hotandsticky]

10 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

 

 

NOPE! The majority of the UK thinks it was a mistake. The UK is just as divided on Brexit as Scotland is divided on independence. The whole UK is completely divided on a plethora of issues, ergo, Mr G. Brown is quite correct. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-55416939

During the last three months, on average, 39% have said that the decision was right, while 49% have stated it was wrong

 

 

 

...and you believe polls do you?  ????????????

 

 

Yes, of course you do, you are a Remainer.....

[2530Ubon]

8 minutes ago, hotandsticky said:

...and you believe polls do you?  ????????????

 

Yes, of course you do, you are a Remainer.....

The polls have been consistently correct on this matter. They correctly predicted leave would win and correctly predicted the percentage points.

 

It's statistical evidence. Not someone saying "most of the country feels the same" which is just plain wrong. The whole country realises that if another vote were held prior to leaving, we would have remained; mostly due to the Brexit camp lying through their teeth to get us to leave. That's also a fact - straight out of the horses mouth - Dominic Cummings.

Edited January 26, 2021 by 2530Ubon

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

The polls have been consistently correct on this matter. They correctly predicted leave would win and correctly predicted the percentage points.

 

It's statistical evidence. Not someone saying "most of the country feels the same" which is just plain wrong. The whole country realises that if another vote were held prior to leaving, we would have remained.

Hope this settles the matter, but I doubt it somehow. ???? And this is from the Guardian. 

 

It wasn’t just a bad night for Europhiles and David Cameron, but also for pollsters, who misread the mood of the electorate in the run-up to the vote.

Of 168 polls carried out since the EU referendum wording was decided last September, fewer than a third (55 in all) predicted a leave vote.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/how-eu-referendum-pollsters-wrong-opinion-predict-close

 

[2530Ubon]

11 minutes ago, vogie said:

Hope this settles the matter, but I doubt it somehow. ???? And this is from the Guardian. 

 

It wasn’t just a bad night for Europhiles and David Cameron, but also for pollsters, who misread the mood of the electorate in the run-up to the vote.

Of 168 polls carried out since the EU referendum wording was decided last September, fewer than a third (55 in all) predicted a leave vote.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/how-eu-referendum-pollsters-wrong-opinion-predict-close

 

https://qz.com/820098/no-newt-the-polls-didnt-get-brexit-wrong-and-they-wont-save-donald-trump/

The final vote for Brexit, the UK’s June 23, 2016 referendum on whether it should leave the European Union, turned out to be 52% in favor of leaving and 48% to remain. What did the polls say before the vote? Thanks to the internet, we can look back and see. Many media outlets in the UK adopted the policy of collecting public polls and averaging them, a best practice for dealing with volatile public opinion.

The Financial Times‘ tracker offered an average of 48% Remain, 46% Leave and 6% undecided ahead of the vote. The Economist’s final tracker found Remain and Leave tied at 44% each, with 9% saying “don’t know.” I can’t quite figure out where the BBC’s polling average wound up, but their last commentary is “a final set of polls continues to give an unclear picture of the referendum outcome.” In other words, a unified message came from poll analysts: This is too close to call. That’s especially true given the the margin of error of 3% in most surveys of 1,000 or more people, which characterizes most of these national polls.

The problem is with the undecided folks - they really swung the vote. Polls have been pretty damn close in the UK. There have been a few mistakes, sure - but the one I gave was an almagamation of all polls in three months. They can't ALL be wrong.

[vogie]

11 minutes ago, 2530Ubon said:

https://qz.com/820098/no-newt-the-polls-didnt-get-brexit-wrong-and-they-wont-save-donald-trump/

The final vote for Brexit, the UK’s June 23, 2016 referendum on whether it should leave the European Union, turned out to be 52% in favor of leaving and 48% to remain. What did the polls say before the vote? Thanks to the internet, we can look back and see. Many media outlets in the UK adopted the policy of collecting public polls and averaging them, a best practice for dealing with volatile public opinion.

The Financial Times‘ tracker offered an average of 48% Remain, 46% Leave and 6% undecided ahead of the vote. The Economist’s final tracker found Remain and Leave tied at 44% each, with 9% saying “don’t know.” I can’t quite figure out where the BBC’s polling average wound up, but their last commentary is “a final set of polls continues to give an unclear picture of the referendum outcome.” In other words, a unified message came from poll analysts: This is too close to call. That’s especially true given the the margin of error of 3% in most surveys of 1,000 or more people, which characterizes most of these national polls.

The problem is with the undecided folks - they really swung the vote. Polls have been pretty damn close in the UK. There have been a few mistakes, sure - but the one I gave was an almagamation of all polls in three months. They can't ALL be wrong.

"They can't ALL be wrong." 

Maybe not, but who are we to say which one is wrong and which one is correct, polling depends on so many things, like who commissioned the poll, who was asked, where was it asked and more importantly, how was the question worded. Polls are not worth the paper that they are printed on and it's not something we should be getting bogged down with. 

[RichardColeman]

Think Mr Brown will find all of us living outside of cities and towns are quite happy, we just want the big towns and cities walled up as they now foreign to most of us.

[Surelynot]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

I think you are spending too much time on Twitter. There is a difference of opinion between a leaver and a remainer, a remainer is willing to sacrifice some of the UKs sovereignty for a seat at the table whereas a leaver is not, infact the majority of the country is of the same belief. 

And as for saying its the end of the Union that is just stirring the soup, I know you won't like it but the UK aint going anywhere, it is just remainer hype. 

Never been on Twitter.....too old.

 

"infact the majority of the country is of the same belief". Really....link? evidence?

 

[Sujo]

1 hour ago, hotandsticky said:

 

 

 

...and you believe polls do you?  ????????????

 

 

Yes, of course you do, you are a Remainer.....

The referendum was a poll.

[Scot123]

5 hours ago, Surelynot said:

I would argue that the "could" should be a "will"....

 

SNP are on a roll, big wins coming for them in May and then Indy2......all thanks to Johnson's total arrogance and dismissive approach to the other three nations.....he never has been and never will be a leader in any real sense of the word.

 

His lasting legacy will be the destruction of the Union.

I think you might be wrong. Living in Scotland and talking to people who were once very nationalistic are now very anti snp. The problem is the SNP are very much like the nazi party were, they form in packs and attack any one who disagrees with their lunacy. People when asked polling questions by tartan clad AH. tend to nod and agree. It can also be very intimidating voting here as there is a pack of SNP supporters illegally outside polling station doors. For 14 years they have blamed westminster for everything and people now are not accepting the excuse.  Plus scandal is at their door at every turn from lying corruption and thieving of billions in Covid relief money.

[Sujo]

48 minutes ago, vogie said:

"They can't ALL be wrong." 

Maybe not, but who are we to say which one is wrong and which one is correct, polling depends on so many things, like who commissioned the poll, who was asked, where was it asked and more importantly, how was the question worded. Polls are not worth the paper that they are printed on and it's not something we should be getting bogged down with. 

Same as the brexit poll you rely on.

[Surelynot]

17 minutes ago, Scot123 said:

I think you might be wrong. Living in Scotland and talking to people who were once very nationalistic are now very anti snp. The problem is the SNP are very much like the nazi party were, they form in packs and attack any one who disagrees with their lunacy. People when asked polling questions by tartan clad AH. tend to nod and agree. It can also be very intimidating voting here as there is a pack of SNP supporters illegally outside polling station doors. For 14 years they have blamed westminster for everything and people now are not accepting the excuse.  Plus scandal is at their door at every turn from lying corruption and thieving of billions in Covid relief money.

Fair enough...purely anecdotal......so let May inform us both!

Edited January 26, 2021 by Surelynot

[Nout]

From the idiot who sold off our gold reserves for a pittance!

[melvinmelvin]

5 hours ago, Surelynot said:

You've lost me...... presumably you don't mean Brexit, as that was decided before he came to power....so you mean the God awful trade deal that will drive businesses to the wall, financial services to move abroad and usher in the destruction of the Union...what leadership!!!!....I am in awe.

 

why not Brexit,

 

parliament and previous PM messed it up multiple times

BJ delivered, that being good or bad for UK I don't now, but he did deliver

[vogie]

25 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Never been on Twitter.....too old.

 

"infact the majority of the country is of the same belief". Really....link? evidence?

 

52% leave 48% remain.

[vogie]

28 minutes ago, Sujo said:

Same as the brexit poll you rely on.

Are you referring to the Brexit referendum?

[Surelynot]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

why not Brexit,

 

parliament and previous PM messed it up multiple times

BJ delivered, that being good or bad for UK I don't now, but he did deliver

Surely Article 50 effectively delivered Brexit?

[JonnyF]

Scotland leaving wouldn't destroy the UK. It would probably strengthen it once we had to stop subsidizing their free prescriptions, tuition fees etc.

 

I really don't know why we don't just get rid of the whingers. Personally I'd welcome them leaving, we've been placating them long enough. I'd feel sorry for the Scottish Unionists though, having to watch their country disintegrate and slip into a decade long recession while The Bank of England dictated their monetary policy via the GBP, as they begged the EU to let them join their corrupt protectionist racket, and begged the UK for a trade deal while they're waiting.

 

The only good thing about them staying in the UK would be watching Sturgeon implode, although it looks like her lies over the Salmond debacle might claim her before anything else. The sooner that divisive shyster is out of politics the better.

[Surelynot]

10 minutes ago, vogie said:

52% leave 48% remain.

Mmmmm....you mean the majority of those who voted....get your thinking head on.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Surelynot

[melvinmelvin]

7 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Surely Article 50 effectively delivered Brexit?

 

well

triggering A50 then spending the alloted time in the pub would have left affairs in kind of a limbo/uncertain status

 

BJ collected some loose threads and guided further

 

Anyway, it came about with his hands on the tiller, often called win/deliver in pltcs

[RuamRudy]

41 minutes ago, Scot123 said:

I think you might be wrong. Living in Scotland and talking to people who were once very nationalistic are now very anti snp. The problem is the SNP are very much like the nazi party were, they form in packs and attack any one who disagrees with their lunacy. People when asked polling questions by tartan clad AH. tend to nod and agree. It can also be very intimidating voting here as there is a pack of SNP supporters illegally outside polling station doors. For 14 years they have blamed westminster for everything and people now are not accepting the excuse.  Plus scandal is at their door at every turn from lying corruption and thieving of billions in Covid relief money.

 

Hmmm have you ever set for in Scotland? Judging by that nonsense, I very much doubt it. 

[2530Ubon]

30 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

Mmmmm....you mean the majority of those who voted....get your thinking head on.

And he should have used the simple past tense - the majority used to believe it was the correct decision. Data now shows that the UK is missing their European partners, and discovering how hard it is going to be.

 

Customers are complaining about the massive increase in costs and delays, shippers are complaining about the massive backlogs, or inability to reach a port. Some businesses have completely stopped taking/sending orders from EU-UK &vice versa.  Where is the good in all of this? 

Edited January 26, 2021 by 2530Ubon

[shy coconut]

On 1/26/2021 at 11:49 AM, vogie said:

 

Roughly half of the country wanting to be Nationalists and the other half not wanting this is by anyone language, a divided country. 

but 52% is a decisive indication of the will of the people, I wish you would make your mind up.

[BangkokReady]

7 hours ago, rabang said:

The city is full of separate microcosms detached from each other. Parts of the city look like Pakistan or Middle East, others like Africa.

 

Diversity is our strength! (Or so they say.)

[vogie]

2 minutes ago, shy coconut said:

but 52% is a decisive indication of the will of the people, I wish you would make your mind up.

I think you misunderstand, the Brexit vote was a referendum and not some manipulated Mickey Mouse Poll the SNP keep displaying when things are not going to well for them. Look out this week they could be offering about a half a dozen to hopefully disguise the mess they are in.

And yes 52% is devinitive and a poll is just a manipulated guess.

[2530Ubon]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

I think you misunderstand, the Brexit vote was a referendum and not some manipulated Mickey Mouse Poll the SNP keep displaying when things are not going to well for them. Look out this week they could be offering about a half a dozen to hopefully disguise the mess they are in.

And yes 52% is devinitive and a poll is just a manipulated guess.

 

He was commenting on the fact that you believe Scotland is torn in half by Nationalists that want to leave, and the rest of them that want to stay in the UK. But the UK isn't torn in half? - even though you quoted the figure 52%?

 

5 hours ago, vogie said:

Roughly half of the country wanting to be Nationalists and the other half not wanting this is by anyone language, a divided country. 

[Pedrogaz]

I was pleased that BJ chose to negotiate more seriously (I thought ) than T May. But what is coming out, with red tape, expensive safety certificates, ham sandwich stolen by customs officers in Holland, fisheries gone compeletly, I think he screwed it up. 

In my time in business I met lots of people like Johnson, big picture people with n ahead for detail....but plans are run on details not big pictures. Sadly these nincompoops often make it into the board room on their contacts fro Eton and OxBridge.

[2530Ubon]

11 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

....and relax....

Johnson is on his way to God's country to save the day....possibly the worst course of action he could take......hope he takes the time to visit a few fish markets.

 

I've got odds on for Boris to go there in a kilt, bagpipes and tartan draped around him on show- and then mumble a comment or two deeply offensive to Scots.

 

That same comment would earn a pat on the back and a free drink in a low class east London pub close to Millwall, but it's definitely going to earn him a vote leave result.

 

Any takers?

[Knocker33]

Bit ironic this coming from the tw@t who sold most of the UK's gold at a loss