NESDB says retiree needs 2.8 – 4 million baht savings to survive for the rest of life

[RocketDog]

25 minutes ago, 473geo said:

A home, and self sufficiency, opening up the choices of children is possibly as much of a benefit if not more than teaching 'financial wisdom'

Life on the treadmill of employment is not a ticket out of poverty for many, but merely an alternative method of subsistence

Point taken. Maybe 'resource utilization' would have been a better choice of words than financial wisdom. 

 

I think we can agree that simply providing money to children doesn't teach them any responsibility at all though. I've known a few sad individuals who suffered from that syndrome. A solid value system coupled with opportunity is priceless. I'm eternally grateful that my parents gave me and my three brothers both. 

 

Truthfully raising children to be worthwhile individuals is a very difficult thing. It's a puzzle for sure. The problem is that they always have their own ideas, regretfully/thankfully. ????

 

I knew I wasn't up to it in my early twenties and chose a more selfish life. I've never regretted that either, so I'm hardly an authority on the subject. 

 

I did foster three Japanese kids in their mid-teens for over ten years in my forties. They all have Green cards in America now and six figure incomes. But that taught me that getting them 'used/previously owned' was a much better idea. I suspect that most of the wear & tear on parents occurs in the first sixteen years. 

 

[BritManToo]

17 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

Truthfully raising children to be worthwhile individuals is a very difficult thing. It's a puzzle for sure. The problem is that they always have their own ideas, regretfully/thankfully. ????

Not spending too much money on them, not handing them much money, and always being available for them seems to turn out well enough for my kids.

[brianthainess]

3 hours ago, KarenBravo said:

Most Thais already have a pension plan.

Leeching off their children.

After a life-time of reminding their kids that it was them that gave their children life, they want pay-back for what was probably a three minute drunken <deleted>.

Even "kids" aged 20 plus are still expecting support from mum and dad, kids don't support mum and dad to the same extent, like they used to.

[pmarlin]

4 hours ago, petermik said:

There is one already...600 BAHT a month to the lucky ones...????

Starting and it increases based on age up to 900 baht.  which is nothing and that is why family members have to use large sums of money to support retired family members.  If they can't then they live dirt poor.

[digger70]

7 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

Perhaps a state pension could help ?

A State Pension Can only be given when there's a Government that Register every person in a Social Security System  and can Make Every Worker Pay Tax .

Than  there will have to be a  Non Corrupt Social Security System in place that can Pay that Pension.

[Morch]

And yet, seems like most government "schemes" are aimed at people spending even more. Guess it's dealing with the hear and now, letting some future government handle things when they hit the fan.

 

I think that in rural/semi-rural Thailand, this is maybe less of an issue. Costs are lower, and with a bit of land, life can be tackled. Up to a point, at least. Different in the cities.

 

MiL does not have a pension, but medical bills are sorted as elder son is an a retired officer. Got some money tucked away (we have no idea how much, never asked or looked in her account books) - I'd imagine one million at most. No land in her name. No outstanding debts either. Gets monthly support (nothing extravagant) by three of her daughters, with another sister trying to put her hands on the imaginary stash. She'll be moving in with us later this year.

 

The last bit is, IMO, as important as the savings situation. If you don't have someone to wipe your bum off when you're too old and frail, you're in trouble. I feel that Thailand shifted some when it comes to family solidarity and taking care of elders/parents.

 

Glad Mrs. Morch starts digesting and accepting the notion that somewhere down the line, we'll probably be better off selling the land and house and getting a smaller, more manageable and accessible place. With no kids it's easier to save, but still leaves the care issue.

[RocketDog]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

Not spending too much money on them, not handing them much money, and always being available for them seems to turn out well enough for my kids.

Agreed. My father made pretty good money but we never knew it when we were young. I earned 50 cents/hr pulling weeds and mowing for my mother. They gave us what we needed and taught us to save and spend well. 

His saving worked quite well for my mother in the divorce. Really though she deserved it. Raising four boys is no party. 

[loong]

I would think that most 60 year old rural Thais have not managed to earn 2.8 million Baht in their lifetime so far!

Same goes for urban Thais and the 4 million Baht. Many urban Thais earn less than 10,000 Baht per month. If they saved every Baht (impossible) it would take them 33 years to save the 4 mill! Of course earlier in their lives their income would have been nowhere near 10K month.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, loong said:

I would think that most 60 year old rural Thais have not managed to earn 2.8 million Baht in their lifetime so far!

Same goes for urban Thais and the 4 million Baht. Many urban Thais earn less than 10,000 Baht per month. If they saved every Baht (impossible) it would take them 33 years to save the 4 mill! Of course earlier in their lives their income would have been nowhere near 10K month.

 

In my experience, Thais do not treat land and real estate as representing assets. BiL could ask for money, while owning 3-4 plots of land (that we know of), and having two houses. We live  in cattle and dairy country. Most people in the village got a bit of land (with crops), house, cows, one or two vehicles and maybe a tractor. None of them looks rich, or even well-off. But they're not really poor either. At least not in real terms.

 

I think that if it wasn't for late FiL's "big face", MiL could have saved the prescribed amount, even while bringing up six children. She's extremely thrifty, true, but not overly given to complaining about her lot. Sometimes bites the family when they talk about life being hard...

[OneMoreFarang]

5 hours ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Maybe there's a typo in the OP and they meant 2.8 to 4 Bitcoin?

 

You'd have to be mad to bet on worthless fiat currency with the current state of the global economy.

And you have to be super mad to think "investing" in Bitcoin makes the situation any better.

[473geo]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

In my experience, Thais do not treat land and real estate as representing assets. BiL could ask for money, while owning 3-4 plots of land (that we know of), and having two houses. We live  in cattle and dairy country. Most people in the village got a bit of land (with crops), house, cows, one or two vehicles and maybe a tractor. None of them looks rich, or even well-off. But they're not really poor either. At least not in real terms.

 

I think that if it wasn't for late FiL's "big face", MiL could have saved the prescribed amount, even while bringing up six children. She's extremely thrifty, true, but not overly given to complaining about her lot. Sometimes bites the family when they talk about life being hard...

My boss of years ago used to say "yes I have over 100 acres of valuable farm land, but the electric company and supermarket will not take a piece of sod as payment!!" 'real terms' means little if the asset has to be sold to fund retirement, I know the siblings of my wife are smart enough to not let that happen, hence a little money sent to help support Yai is a smart investment.  Not to sell and cash in, but a back up for their retirement and their children possibly a place to build a small retirement home

[Morch]

31 minutes ago, 473geo said:

My boss of years ago used to say "yes I have over 100 acres of valuable farm land, but the electric company and supermarket will not take a piece of sod as payment!!" 'real terms' means little if the asset has to be sold to fund retirement, I know the siblings of my wife are smart enough to not let that happen, hence a little money sent to help support Yai is a smart investment.  Not to sell and cash in, but a back up for their retirement and their children possibly a place to build a small retirement home

 

Fair enough, and I totally get the point of holding on to land. My point was that sometimes it seems that even with back to the wall, it's somehow not an option. Even more than that, borrowing money to buy more land, when cannot service outstanding loans and no prospects of a steady income in sight.

 

Bottom line is that if you own 100 acres, you're not poor.

[KhunBENQ]

10 hours ago, onebir said:

Seems beyond reach in many cases?

So unreal in the "rural area" where I live.

Should I go and tell them?

Don't know whether they would find it funny.

Or just tell me that "buffaloes" are governing the country?

 

[bangon04]

Instead of saluting the flag and singing patriotic songs for an hour each day - why not introduce basic arithmetic and basic economics in Thai schools??

[Oww]

10 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And you have to be super mad to think "investing" in Bitcoin makes the situation any better.

Made 2.5m baht just in the last year. I'm guessing you um... Haven't. ????

[Albert Zweistein]

11 hours ago, digger70 said:

A State Pension Can only be given when there's a Government that Register every person in a Social Security System  and can Make Every Worker Pay Tax .

Than  there will have to be a  Non Corrupt Social Security System in place that can Pay that Pension.

I know how a state pension system works, I am enjoyng it for a long time. I am mentioning it because once it could be started even in Thailand. And don't worry, everybody in Thailand is registered so to link them to the SS system be a piece of cake.

[upu2]

2.8 million Baht is just enough for 1 month for the family

[Airalee]

17 hours ago, mikebell said:

Perhaps if they narrowed the disparity in wealth between the hi-sos and the rest this huge figure would shorten?

It’s a nice thought for sure...but the math doesn’t work.

 

The top 50 richest people in Thailand are worth approximately 4 trillion baht (cumulatively in 2020) and of that, half of their “wealth” is illiquid.  The other half is in stocks, bonds etc where if you tried to liquidate it all to spread the wealth, the value would crash as after all...who’s gonna buy it?  The wealth for the richest 1-10% drops off fairly quickly after that.  Much much lower than the Uber rich.

 

Back of the hand calculation...just for fun...

 

4 trillion Baht divided amongst 60 million people would give each person about ฿66,666.  A new Honda wave and a TV.  That won’t even get them close to what the claimed necessary savings for retirement.

 

What’s the solution?

 

I don’t know.  But they don’t call economics “the dismal science” for nothing.

[OneMoreFarang]

9 hours ago, Oww said:

Made 2.5m baht just in the last year. I'm guessing you um... Haven't. ????

Great for you. Hopefully you will continue to make money.

Unfortunately I heard statement like your a lot. And then not so much anymore. And in a few cases the same people admitted that after their first "yeah, I made a lot of money" came a lot of: I should have sold earlier.

Good luck!

[mikebell]

7 hours ago, Airalee said:

It’s a nice thought for sure...but the math doesn’t work.

 

The top 50 richest people in Thailand are worth approximately 4 trillion baht (cumulatively in 2020) and of that, half of their “wealth” is illiquid.  The other half is in stocks, bonds etc where if you tried to liquidate it all to spread the wealth, the value would crash as after all...who’s gonna buy it?  The wealth for the richest 1-10% drops off fairly quickly after that.  Much much lower than the Uber rich.

 

Back of the hand calculation...just for fun...

 

4 trillion Baht divided amongst 60 million people would give each person about ฿66,666.  A new Honda wave and a TV.  That won’t even get them close to what the claimed necessary savings for retirement.

 

What’s the solution?

 

I don’t know.  But they don’t call economics “the dismal science” for nothing.

Thanks for that, you obviously know your stuff.  Would taxation help close the gap?

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Great for you. Hopefully you will continue to make money.

Unfortunately I heard statement like your a lot. And then not so much anymore. And in a few cases the same people admitted that after their first "yeah, I made a lot of money" came a lot of: I should have sold earlier.

Good luck!

There was a video going round of the top ten richest in the USA in the last 20 years.

Mostly the super-rich lost it all in about 10 years ........ if they'd converted to cash at the top, they would have still been super-rich.

Looks like they all (apart from Bill Gates) should have followed your advice!

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by BritManToo

[loong]

11 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

I know how a state pension system works, I am enjoyng it for a long time. I am mentioning it because once it could be started even in Thailand. And don't worry, everybody in Thailand is registered so to link them to the SS system be a piece of cake.

If you know how a state pension works, you should also know that it needs funding.

The majority of Thais do not pay any tax or SS contributions.

Most of them barely earn enough to live and so could not afford to pay any tax.

So where would the funding come from?

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, mikebell said:

Thanks for that, you obviously know your stuff.  Would taxation help close the gap?

I just gave you an example of 100% taxation (in a strange way).  Who’s left to tax?  Should they tax all expats?  The ฿65,000 income requirements for retirement probably puts us all pretty solidly in the top 10%.

 

Income and wealth gaps have been there since time (and use of money) began.  And I wouldn’t be surprised if “closing the gap” is an idea that has been bandied about for just about as long.  Usually by politicians looking for votes because it sure sounds good and virtuous.

[Albert Zweistein]

13 hours ago, loong said:

If you know how a state pension works, you should also know that it needs funding.

The majority of Thais do not pay any tax or SS contributions.

Most of them barely earn enough to live and so could not afford to pay any tax.

So where would the funding come from?

If you don't start it will never happen. Presently elder people get Bt 500 monthly from the government, this is something but of course not enough. On the other hand there are a lot of rich and middle class people in Thailand who can afford to contribute to this system but once again,, if you don't start.........................

[connda]

What a farce.  Most of the elderly villages don't have two satang to rub together.  Most depend on their kids for support.  Those who don't have kids struggle at a bare, subsistence level.  Thank God for free healthcare or most of these people would die very early deaths.  On the flip side, it's amazing at how little money is needed to eat and keep the lights on and water running.  5,000 THB a month or less. 

As most Hi-so elites, Mr Secretary-General Danucha Pichayanan is completely detached from the reality of the common Thai people.  He only talking about middle-class people in Bangkok. 

[loong]

13 hours ago, Albert Zweistein said:

If you don't start it will never happen. Presently elder people get Bt 500 monthly from the government, this is something but of course not enough. On the other hand there are a lot of rich and middle class people in Thailand who can afford to contribute to this system but once again,, if you don't start.........................

Yes, the rich could probably afford it, but good luck with getting them to contribute.

A lot of the rich make huge profits but still only want to pay the people that work for them minimum wage or less.