New Non-Imm O-A Visa Application From UK: Financial evidence showing monthly income of not less than 65,000 THB (approx. £1,625)

[Carrbhoy]

Hi all - can you please assist with the above requirement for a Non-Imm O-A visa application I will be making at the London Thai embassy later this year. I want to obtain the visa as soon as I reach Age 50 and was looking for clarification on what financial evidence is required.

 

My situation is as follows - I will have confirmation of the Pension amount and monthly Payment dates prior to me reaching 50 at the end of Nov 21. The Pension amount will exceed 65000 THB so I meet this requirement. The first Pension payment will be 3rd Dec 2021 and the bank statement showing this amount won't be available online until 26th Dec 2021. I note the original bank statement appears to be the preferred documentation according to the London Thai embassy website unless I get a copy notarised etc.

 

I don't want to wait until the end of Dec 21 to submit the visa application with the original bank statement & other documents and would prefer to do this at the end of Nov 21 when I reach 50 to get the process started as early as possible.

 

Will the Pension confirmation letter confirming the Amount & Payment dates be sufficient?  If not, does a screen print of my online bank account showing the first payment on 3rd Dec 2021 meet the requirement? I strongly suspect the answer to this is NO! If neither of these work, do I really need to wait until the end of Dec 21 for the first bank statement? Are there any other options available?

 

Re having 800,000 THB / £20k in my account, unfortunately this isn't an option for me - my funds are tied up and I won't receive the Tax Free 25% sum until the 3rd Dec so the same issues I've stated above apply.

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance / guidance. I'm sure this has been asked before - I did use the search function but didn't easily find a previous thread. 

 

CB

 

[UKresonant]

Good move to conclude taking your pension within December 2021 (assuming you shall not be in Thailand more than 180 days in 2021), it will not raise complications as the new Thai tax start 1st Jan 2022 ( though probably fine anyway ) 

 

[Carrbhoy]

14 hours ago, UKresonant said:

Good move to conclude taking your pension within December 2021 (assuming you shall not be in Thailand more than 180 days in 2021), it will not raise complications as the new Thai tax start 1st Jan 2022 ( though probably fine anyway ) 

 

 

Another nice bonus! Not by design just when I turn 50 but I'll take it. I think I will also get several months almost Tax Free from the UK Gov Taxes as the amount received during Dec21 - Apr22 will fall within the current £12,500 Tax Allowance.

 

All going well I will exceed the 180 days in Thailand for the first time during 2022!

 

[Peter Denis]

@Tanoshi will most probably be able to give you correct advice on your specific UK pension-related query.

[Tanoshi]

@Carrbhoy

Is this a change to your original line of questioning in UK To Thailand - Pre 50 Advice Required - Page 2 - Thai visas, residency and work permits - Thailand Visa Forum by Thai Visa.

 

What exactly are your short and long term plans.

 

[Carrbhoy]

5 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

@Carrbhoy

Is this a change to your original line of questioning in UK To Thailand - Pre 50 Advice Required - Page 2 - Thai visas, residency and work permits - Thailand Visa Forum by Thai Visa.

 

What exactly are your short and long term plans.

 

 

Hi Tanoshi - thanks for your reply. In short, yes. The vaccine rollout in Scotland has changed my timeline - I want to get both doses of vaccine in Scotland before I travel to Thailand.

 

Long term plans remain the same - I want to retire to Thailand / Chiang Mai and travel within Thailand and wider in Asia for several months each year. CM will be my base and until the borders in Asia open, I will travel internally and explore Thailand.

 

Short term - weighing up the options and pro's / con's. These have changed since my earlier thread. Peter Denis has kindly provided a detailed response today via DM which I will work my way through and this will no doubt clear up some of the queries I have and help me make a more informed decision on the best option.

 

Option 1 - wait in UK until 50 (end of Nov 21) & obtain Non Imm 0-A hence the above specific query re documentation to support Financial Income.

 

If I choose Option 2 - travel to Thailand after 2nd vaccine dose in say Sept21, the above query isn't relevant. I would travel on a TR using 45 day extension / Covid extensions to get me to Dec21 when I can then apply for the Non Imm 0 for Retirement purposes. I would have the funds required to support the 800k THB etc. 

 

Really appreciate the time you all put in to provide guidance. Hope this helps to clarify my current thinking and reason for my new thread / query.

 

Thanks again.

 

CB

 

[stuandjulie]

Unless it has changed you don't need to be 50 to get a Non O year visa, I got one at 48 with a view to retirement, the visa can last 15 months which took me to over 50, the retirement bit is an extension of a Non O Visa not a visa in itself. DM Lopburi he is the guru on these matters.

[Carrbhoy]

2 minutes ago, stuandjulie said:

Unless it has changed you don't need to be 50 to get a Non O year visa, I got one at 48 with a view to retirement, the visa can last 15 months which took me to over 50, the retirement bit is an extension of a Non O Visa not a visa in itself. DM Lopburi he is the guru on these matters.

 

That would be ideal if still the case. I will receive my 2nd dose in Scotland hopefully during Aug21 - I reach 50 end of Nov21 so could travel on a Tourist visa (45+30 days) during Sept21 & then transfer to the Non O year visa with a view to Retirement & then get the extension Dec21 / Early 2022 when I have the 800k THB funds required and have a Thai bank a/c etc.

 

I'll DM Lopburi for clarification as suggested. Much appreciated.

 

[Tanoshi]

23 minutes ago, Carrbhoy said:

Option 1 - wait in UK until 50 (end of Nov 21) & obtain Non Imm 0-A hence the above specific query re documentation to support Financial Income.

 

If I choose Option 2 - travel to Thailand after 2nd vaccine dose in say Sept21, the above query isn't relevant. I would travel on a TR using 45 day extension / Covid extensions to get me to Dec21 when I can then apply for the Non Imm 0 for Retirement purposes. I would have the funds required to support the 800k THB etc. 

 

As far as financial evidence for the Thai Embassy is concerned, a statement from your Pension provider detailing your monthly income should be sufficient. 

 

To be perfectly frank, based on your future intentions, I wouldn't embark on a plan yet but keep all possible options open for the time being, and re-examine the situation again beginning of August.

 

Personally I'm not an advocate for the Non O-A Visa since they introduced the mandatory Health Insurance requirement, which is also required for applying for annual extensions based on retirement.

My preference if you intend to stay long term/permanently in Thailand would be the Non O Visa which does not require the mandatory Health Insurance for future extensions of stay in Thailand.

 

The Non O-A can only be applied for in a Country where you have citizenship or permanent residency status.

The Non O can be obtained in your home Country, a Thai Embassy/Consulate in a neighbouring Country to Thailand, or from Thai Immigration if entering VE or on a TV.

 

[Tanoshi]

8 minutes ago, stuandjulie said:

Unless it has changed you don't need to be 50 to get a Non O year visa, I got one at 48 with a view to retirement, the visa can last 15 months which took me to over 50, the retirement bit is an extension of a Non O Visa not a visa in itself. DM Lopburi he is the guru on these matters.

You used an agent and was issued both a Non O and 1 year extension together = 15 months.

You do not extend your Non O Visa and I'm positive Lopburi did not tell you that.

You extend your permission of stay each year, the Visa is dead on the expiry date.

[Carrbhoy]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

You used an agent and was issued both a Non O and 1 year extension together = 15 months.

You do not extend your Non O Visa and I'm positive Lopburi did not tell you that.

You extend your permission of stay each year, the Visa is dead on the expiry date.

 

Thanks for clarifying and for your separate response to my query. I think I now have my head around what documentation is required / when I can submit the visa application for Option 1 - Stay in UK / Wait Until 50 & obtain Non Imm 0-A. Whilst I could get into Thailand earlier, I think I need to be more patient and focus on the best longer term solution. Thanks for your honest feedback and input.

 

I will review again once I'm aware of my 2nd vaccine date (probably Aug21) and see what the landscape looks like at that time.

 

[Tanoshi]

48 minutes ago, Carrbhoy said:

I reach 50 end of Nov21 so could travel on a Tourist visa (45+30 days) during Sept21 & then transfer to the Non O year visa with a view to Retirement & then get the extension Dec21 / Early 2022 when I have the 800k THB funds required and have a Thai bank a/c etc.

I believe your confusing a  VE and TV entry.

Currently entering Visa exempt your granted a stay of 45 days (usually 30 days) due to quarantine, then a 30 day extension = 75 days.

The single entry TV your granted 60 days on entry, then a 30 day extension = 90 days.

 

The METV (multi entry tourist Visa) is currently suspended and has been temporarily replaced with the STV, 90 + 90 + 90, but you can't switch to a Non O at Immigration on this type of Visa.

 

If your 50 on Nov 21st, by my calculation you could enter Thailand as early as Sept 15th on a Tourist Visa (60 days > Nov 14th) + 30 day extension > Dec 13th, meaning you could apply for a change of Visa status from TV to Non O on Nov 22nd, at CM Immigration, subject to 800K in a Thai bank account.

Tourist Visas can be applied for at Thai Consulates if they are more convenient for you.

You must have at least 15 days permission of stay remaining to apply for the Non O at Immigration.

 

No criminal record checks. (Non O-A)

No medical. (Non O-A)

No Health Insurance. (Annual extensions from a Non O)

[Peter Denis]

10 hours ago, stuandjulie said:

Unless it has changed you don't need to be 50 to get a Non O year visa, I got one at 48 with a view to retirement, the visa can last 15 months which took me to over 50, the retirement bit is an extension of a Non O Visa not a visa in itself. DM Lopburi he is the guru on these matters.

Which type of Non Imm O Visa did you apply for?

When under 50 years of age you cannot get such a Visa for reason of retirement.  You could of course have applied for a different reason, and once in Thailand and already on a 1-year extension of that original Visa, you can then opt to apply for reason of retirement when in meantime being +50 years of age.

@lopburi3 is probably the TVF member you are referring to, who can provide a contribution to this thread.

[DrJack54]

OP, with your plans I can't see why you would be wanting to obtain a non O-A.

Have a second and third read of advice from @Tanoshi 

If you wish to travel to Thailand prior to reaching the magic 50, then just enter with tourist visa or visa exempt. No need for me to repeat Tanoshi advice (option) given above, however it gets my vote.

[Tanoshi]

10 hours ago, stuandjulie said:

Unless it has changed you don't need to be 50 to get a Non O year visa, I got one at 48 with a view to retirement, the visa can last 15 months which took me to over 50, the retirement bit is an extension of a Non O Visa not a visa in itself. DM Lopburi he is the guru on these matters.

 

3 minutes ago, Peter Denis said:

Which type of Non Imm O Visa did you apply for?

When under 50 years of age you cannot get such a Visa for reason of retirement.  You could of course have applied for a different reason, and once in Thailand and already on a 1-year extension of that original Visa, you can then opt to apply for reason of retirement when in meantime being +50 years of age.

@lopburi3 is probably the TVF member you are referring to, who can provide a contribution to this thread.

 

Peter, at a guess @stuandjulie entered VE or TV, then employed an agent to obtain the Non O and first 1 year extension. They are commonly issued together so effectively granting a stay of 15 months.

As with financials and age, the requirements are overlooked when 'greasing' fingers.

 

He didn't mention if he was actually married to a Thai, but if so, naturally the 50 age limit wouldn't apply in that case, but the IO involved may have found it more 'accommodating' to issue the extension based on retirement. Same day, no regional office approval required.

 

 

[Carrbhoy]

18 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

I believe your confusing a  VE and TV entry.

Currently entering Visa exempt your granted a stay of 45 days (usually 30 days) due to quarantine, then a 30 day extension = 75 days.

The single entry TV your granted 60 days on entry, then a 30 day extension = 90 days.

 

The METV (multi entry tourist Visa) is currently suspended and has been temporarily replaced with the STV, 90 + 90 + 90, but you can't switch to a Non O at Immigration on this type of Visa.

 

If your 50 on Nov 21st, by my calculation you could enter Thailand as early as Sept 15th on a Tourist Visa (60 days > Nov 14th) + 30 day extension > Dec 13th, meaning you could apply for a change of Visa status from TV to Non O on Nov 22nd, at CM Immigration, subject to 800K in a Thai bank account.

Tourist Visas can be applied for at Thai Consulates if they are more convenient for you.

You must have at least 15 days permission of stay remaining to apply for the Non O at Immigration.

 

No criminal record checks. (Non O-A)

No medical. (Non O-A)

No Health Insurance. (Annual extensions from a Non O)

 

Thanks for clarifying Tanoshi - yes, I was referring to VE (45 + 30 day extension). The TV (60 + 30) is a better Option for travelling before I reach 50.

 

You are not far off with my birthday - I'll adjust the dates using the 60 + 30 allowing 15 days etc & factoring in time for the UK to Thai bank transfer which I wouldn't be able to do until 3rd / 4th Dec 2021. This is when the funds hit my UK bank account. Week commencing 27th Sept allows plenty of time and fits nicely with my budget.

 

Just one query, can you open a Thai bank account with only a TV?

 

 

[UKresonant]

On 3/4/2021 at 5:12 PM, Carrbhoy said:

 

Another nice bonus! Not by design just when I turn 50 but I'll take it. I think I will also get several months almost Tax Free from the UK Gov Taxes as the amount received during Dec21 - Apr22 will fall within the current £12,500 Tax Allowance.

 

All going well I will exceed the 180 days in Thailand for the first time during 2022!

 

 

That's good with the Tax allowance, I retired on a 1st of March, and had all the tax year related stuff like maxing out ISA's within that 4 weeks.

 

I could have taken two occupational pensions at 50 but unfortunately found they would not be indexed until I was 55,  so hung on until then. All plans were based round the non-O ME, which the Embassy said needed £1400 then £1500/month. But did not find out till later they did not actually enforce it ????  for the marriage version!  Jinxed it because they stopped that visa in the UK 2019...

 

They seem to be ahead of schedule with the Vaccinations, I went for my first one  on Tuesday past, in Kirkcaldy,  wasn't expecting it till April...

 

Mind to keep your transfer proof of the 800k (at both ends) very safe, when you get round to it....

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, Carrbhoy said:

Just one query, can you open a Thai bank account with only a TV?

Yes you can, but requirements to open an account for foreigners has been reported as becoming more difficult recently. You will definitely require proof of a Thai address (not a hotel).

I suggest you first research the requirements for individual banks, although post very little on requirements, it's very much up to the branch and the knowledge of the person your dealing with.

 

An example for Bangkok Bank:

Savings Account (bangkokbank.com)

 2. Foreigner without work permit

• Passport
• A reference letter issued by one of the following institutes or organizations or required document
  • Embassy located  in Thailand 
  • An overseas bank where the customer holds an account sent via SWIFT 
  • Trusted individuals such as a Bangkok Bank staff member or customer, director of a private company, permanent residence in Thailand, government or private educational institutes located in Thailand trusted by the Bank
  • Trusted companies, e.g., an employment letter from the company if the customer is in the process of applying for a work permit.
  • Document showing ownership of a fixed asset such as a condominium sale/purchase agreement (a condominium which is acceptable to Bangkok Bank) Or a property reservation agreement valued at 100,000 baht or more with a reference letter from the property developer that is acceptable to Bangkok Bank.
     

Notes: Contact addresses for both Thailand and overseas must be provided (hotel and P.O. Box addresses are not acceptable).

 

You could obtain a letter of reference from your UK bank beforehand.

A Savings account is your first priority, debit card, online banking, 0.25% interest.

After you transfer 800K you may want to open a Fixed Term Savings account to deposit that in. No debit card, 0.5% interest.

Interest is automatically taxed at 15%, but can be reclaimed between Jan - Apr each year.

[Tanoshi]

@Carrbhoy

Sent a PM.

[DrJack54]

2 hours ago, Carrbhoy said:

Just one query, can you open a Thai bank account with only a TV

Previously not a problem. However even when I opened my first (think I had a TV) even back then it was like sketch from Monty Python.

Me. I want to open bank ac.

Her. Where is your work permit.

Me. No I need for retirement.

Her. You need work permit.

Back then bit the same as now....you need shop around. I realize that sounds ridiculous.

Then couple years ago I wanted to open another account as the requirements for money in bank changed.

Subsequently I tried to  opened an account with another bank as my bank had no idea what I wanted even though I had my Thai partner with me.

I tried Bangkok bank. Despite all the lovely things I hear about that bank, they were most difficult. Wanted something from my Oz embassy and also from my Au bank. This despite me having extension and reentry permit and existing account with another Thai bank. Ridiculous.

In the end instant success with Kasikorn.

You will find one but most likely not the first first one that you approach. 

In current threads now when someone is planning to enter Thailand visa exempt or TV with aim of obtaining  non o, I ask if they have existing bank account in Thailand.

[Carrbhoy]

6 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Previously not a problem. However even when I opened my first (think I had a TV) even back then it was like sketch from Monty Python.

Me. I want to open bank ac.

Her. Where is your work permit.

Me. No I need for retirement.

Her. You need work permit.

Back then bit the same as now....you need shop around. I realize that sounds ridiculous.

Then couple years ago I wanted to open another account as the requirements for money in bank changed.

Subsequently I tried to  opened an account with another bank as my bank had no idea what I wanted even though I had my Thai partner with me.

I tried Bangkok bank. Despite all the lovely things I hear about that bank, they were most difficult. Wanted something from my Oz embassy and also from my Au bank. This despite me having extension and reentry permit and existing account with another Thai bank. Ridiculous.

In the end instant success with Kasikorn.

You will find one but most likely not the first first one that you approach. 

In current threads now when someone is planning to enter Thailand visa exempt or TV with aim of obtaining  non o, I ask if they have existing bank account in Thailand.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences Dr Jack.

 

Two of the Options I'm considering both require a Thai bank account for the Non Imm 0 application for Retirement. The third Option doesn't require a Thai bank account. Guess I've just identified a further key Pro & Con for each Option!

 

Every step in the process is a minefield. How much are those Elite visa options again?!!

 

I see some of the Visa Agencies provide opening a Bank Account services. Not sure what the fees are but do you think that would be a way of smoothing the process?

 

Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

 

CB

 

 

 

[Carrbhoy]

24 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

@Carrbhoy

Sent a PM.

 

Thanks & replied.

[Carrbhoy]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

Yes you can, but requirements to open an account for foreigners has been reported as becoming more difficult recently. You will definitely require proof of a Thai address (not a hotel).

I suggest you first research the requirements for individual banks, although post very little on requirements, it's very much up to the branch and the knowledge of the person your dealing with.

 

An example for Bangkok Bank:

Savings Account (bangkokbank.com)

 2. Foreigner without work permit

• Passport
• A reference letter issued by one of the following institutes or organizations or required document
  • Embassy located  in Thailand 
  • An overseas bank where the customer holds an account sent via SWIFT 
  • Trusted individuals such as a Bangkok Bank staff member or customer, director of a private company, permanent residence in Thailand, government or private educational institutes located in Thailand trusted by the Bank
  • Trusted companies, e.g., an employment letter from the company if the customer is in the process of applying for a work permit.
  • Document showing ownership of a fixed asset such as a condominium sale/purchase agreement (a condominium which is acceptable to Bangkok Bank) Or a property reservation agreement valued at 100,000 baht or more with a reference letter from the property developer that is acceptable to Bangkok Bank.
     

Notes: Contact addresses for both Thailand and overseas must be provided (hotel and P.O. Box addresses are not acceptable).

 

You could obtain a letter of reference from your UK bank beforehand.

A Savings account is your first priority, debit card, online banking, 0.25% interest.

After you transfer 800K you may want to open a Fixed Term Savings account to deposit that in. No debit card, 0.5% interest.

Interest is automatically taxed at 15%, but can be reclaimed between Jan - Apr each year.

 

Great detail again Tanoshi - thank you.

 

I would be staying in a condo so I think I would be ok for the Thai address requirement.

 

Re obtaining a letter of reference from my UK bank, to be honest I'm trying to keep them in the quiet at least initially about my change in circumstances. I want to keep my UK bank account & UK Investment portfolios open as long as possible. I think when they find out I no longer have a UK home address, residing in Thailand etc they won't allow these accounts to remain open. Maybe I've got that wrong.

I would hate to be in a position of having left the UK, trying to transfer to Non Imm 0 for Retirement and cannot transfer funds to a Thai bank account because none of the banks will allow me to do so on a VE or TV.

 

I've asked this question on a reply above - can Visa Services smooth the path on this issue?

 

I'll add this issue to the Pro's & Con's list for my Options as part of the final deliberation.

 

CB

 

[DrJack54]

3 minutes ago, Carrbhoy said:

 

Great detail again Tanoshi - thank you.

 

I would be staying in a condo so I think I would be ok for the Thai address requirement.

 

Re obtaining a letter of reference from my UK bank, to be honest I'm trying to keep them in the quiet at least initially about my change in circumstances. I want to keep my UK bank account & UK Investment portfolios open as long as possible. I think when they find out I no longer have a UK home address, residing in Thailand etc they won't allow these accounts to remain open. Maybe I've got that wrong.

I would hate to be in a position of having left the UK, trying to transfer to Non Imm 0 for Retirement and cannot transfer funds to a Thai bank account because none of the banks will allow me to do so on a VE or TV.

 

I've asked this question on a reply above - can Visa Services smooth the path on this issue?

 

I'll add this issue to the Pro's & Con's list for my Options as part of the final deliberation.

 

CB

 

Few interesting questions you put forward.

First up the opening Thai bank account is being asked by several folk. On Monday I will visit my Thai bank with my partner and seek advice of what they actually require for folk in your situation.

Also bit unrelated, and I'm not sure how UK works, but personally I would be wanting to keep an address in UK. 

Personally I only have rentals in Oz. My mailing address is my sister's place. This is drifting off topic however I suggest it's something you should look into.

[Carrbhoy]

11 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Few interesting questions you put forward.

First up the opening Thai bank account is being asked by several folk. On Monday I will visit my Thai bank with my partner and seek advice of what they actually require for folk in your situation.

Also bit unrelated, and I'm not sure how UK works, but personally I would be wanting to keep an address in UK. 

Personally I only have rentals in Oz. My mailing address is my sister's place. This is drifting off topic however I suggest it's something you should look into.

 

Thanks for your reply and your generous offer to take the time to visit the bank on Monday.

 

Note your suggestion - it is complicated my end - need to balance potential monthly rental income v. keeping an empty property for the purposes of having a UK address. Despite the issues and risks not having a UK address would cause down the line, I think I will need to manage those Risks in due course.

 

Look forward to hearing from you next week. Any clarification on the bank account queries will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Tanoshi]

39 minutes ago, Carrbhoy said:

Note your suggestion - it is complicated my end - need to balance potential monthly rental income v. keeping an empty property for the purposes of having a UK address. Despite the issues and risks not having a UK address would cause down the line, I think I will need to manage those Risks in due course.

Read the terms and conditions of your UK banker.

You need to have a registered UK address to open an account in the UK, however there is usually no conditions from maintaining that account when living abroad.

I'm with Nationwide, no such issues.

[Carrbhoy]

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Read the terms and conditions of your UK banker.

You need to have a registered UK address to open an account in the UK, however there is usually no conditions from maintaining that account when living abroad.

I'm with Nationwide, no such issues.

 

I'm with Intelligent Finance - just checked the T&Cs and unfortunately they will close my account if they (when they) find out I have moved abroad.

 

I'll move to Nationwide! Added to the key items to complete.

 

[Jimmy B]

I noticed a comment concerning the Thai tax year and 180 days+ being a Thai tax resident etc. Does anyone bother registering for tax here on importing living expenses via transferwise? I don't know anyone that does and have had no issues myself.

[Tanoshi]

51 minutes ago, Jimmy B said:

I noticed a comment concerning the Thai tax year and 180 days+ being a Thai tax resident etc. Does anyone bother registering for tax here on importing living expenses via transferwise? I don't know anyone that does and have had no issues myself.

If your Country has a Double Taxation agreement with Thailand and you pay taxes on your remuneration in your home Country, then this rule is simply non applicable .

Thousands of foreigners have their pensions paid directly into their Thai bank accounts as it's received monthly.

Thai revenue would be all over them if they thought they could tax them.

You'd also come under scrutiny when reclaiming tax paid on interest received in Thailand.

This simply doesn't happen for a reason.

[stuandjulie]

On 3/4/2021 at 3:55 PM, Tanoshi said:

You used an agent and was issued both a Non O and 1 year extension together = 15 months.

You do not extend your Non O Visa and I'm positive Lopburi did not tell you that.

You extend your permission of stay each year, the Visa is dead on the expiry date.

A tad pedantic, permission to stay, extension, in effect it has the same result, I didn't use an agent at all, presumption and pedantry in one sentence ????