whizzergo Posted April 8, 2021 Share Posted April 8, 2021 Evening All, I've read through as many posts as I can find relating to land ownership 'strategies', and specifically usufructs. I understand that the decision to issue an usufruct ultimately resides with the head of the relative land office and so i'm wondering if anyone here has first hand experience of, or knows for sure of, any foreigner obtaining an usufruct for life on either Koh Samui or Koh Phangan? My general idea is to do the same, buying land in the name of a Thai friend who would then issue an Usufruct for life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterw42 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) Koh Samui is renowned for (illegal) creative Thai nominee ownership schemes, there have been several crackdowns in recent years. Google the phrase "koh samui thai nominee" and you will find a history of crackdowns, arrests, raids etc. Even if you find someone who "was" successful in obtaining a userfruct, it looks like its no longer possible. Edited April 9, 2021 by Peterw42 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojo Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 Seek professional advice I would say, of which there is plenty available on the island. Then you will 'know for sure'. Personally, I'm not up to speed of late, but, PM me if you are serious, I'll send you my agent's details in Maenam. She will tell you the way it is, good or bad and she doesn't disappoint....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariohh1 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Peterw42 said: Koh Samui is renowned for (illegal) creative Thai nominee ownership schemes, there have been several crackdowns in recent years. Google the phrase "koh samui thai nominee" and you will find a history of crackdowns, arrests, raids etc. Even if you find someone who "was" successful in obtaining a userfruct, it looks like its no longer possible. this is buying with a company .... a usufruct is as safe/legal as a 30 year lease. since the land still belongs to a thai after the usufructery dies or 30 years. if you do buy land and want to transfer the thai owner and the foreigner in at the same time, you should be a couple otherwise first the thai and a month later the foreigner goes in. i have 12 usufructs in different provinces as well as koh phangan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariohh1 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 50 minutes ago, bojo said: Seek professional advice I would say, of which there is plenty available on the island. Then you will 'know for sure'. Personally, I'm not up to speed of late, but, PM me if you are serious, I'll send you my agent's details in Maenam. She will tell you the way it is, good or bad and she doesn't disappoint....... the only time i got <deleted> on the islands was when i used professional help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterw42 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, mariohh1 said: this is buying with a company .... a usufruct is as safe/legal as a 30 year lease. since the land still belongs to a thai after the usufructery dies or 30 years. if you do buy land and want to transfer the thai owner and the foreigner in at the same time, you should be a couple otherwise first the thai and a month later the foreigner goes in. i have 12 usufructs in different provinces as well as koh phangan. Not sure of the point you are trying to make ? You have a right of access to 12 properties that you don't own, or possibly own 49% of a company that owns the land. (I imagine it would cost a bit to keep 12 companies running) What is the point of having 12 usufructs, you can only live in one of them, and it doesn't give you any ownership. A usufruct cant be sold, doesn't give you a right to lease out the property or on-sell a lease etc. What is the point ? Nobody has said a usufruct or lease is unsafe or illegal, its just not ownership. The OP is talking about a userfruct as a "land ownership strategy" Edited April 9, 2021 by Peterw42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariohh1 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 14 minutes ago, Peterw42 said: Not sure of the point you are trying to make ? You have a right of access to 12 properties that you don't own, or possibly own 49% of a company that owns the land. (I imagine it would cost a bit to keep 12 companies running) What is the point of having 12 usufructs, you can only live in one of them, and it doesn't give you any ownership. A usufruct cant be sold, doesn't give you a right to lease out the property or on-sell a lease etc. What is the point ? Nobody has said a usufruct or lease is unsafe or illegal, its just not ownership. The OP is talking about a userfruct as a "land ownership strategy" yes it gives me the right to lease it out and even do a 30 year lease with someone else. get better informed i would say! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariohh1 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, mariohh1 said: yes it gives me the right to lease it out and even do a 30 year lease with someone else. get better informed i would say! The beneficiary in a usufruct scenario may also transfer his rights to the usufruct to a third party according to Section 1422 of the Civil and Commercial Code An interesting feature of usufruct is that the usufructuary can enter into a 30-year lease with a third party. So if the usufructuary signed a 30-year lease contract before his death, the lessee (tenant) will maintain the rights of the lease until its expiration. Case Study: The Supreme Court ruling 2297/1998 states that the lessor (landlord) does not have to be the owner of the property. Therefore the usufructuary can rent out the land. Although in the event of death of the usufructuary within the lease term, only the usufruct will be terminated but not the lease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterw42 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 26 minutes ago, mariohh1 said: The beneficiary in a usufruct scenario may also transfer his rights to the usufruct to a third party according to Section 1422 of the Civil and Commercial Code An interesting feature of usufruct is that the usufructuary can enter into a 30-year lease with a third party. So if the usufructuary signed a 30-year lease contract before his death, the lessee (tenant) will maintain the rights of the lease until its expiration. Case Study: The Supreme Court ruling 2297/1998 states that the lessor (landlord) does not have to be the owner of the property. Therefore the usufructuary can rent out the land. Although in the event of death of the usufructuary within the lease term, only the usufruct will be terminated but not the lease. Yes, it possible, unless the agreement states otherwise. Any usufruct I have been involved with always had a clause forbidding sublets. (usually just a basic agreement so Thai girlfriend cant kick foreign boyfriend out) Again, what is the point, nobody is giving away usufructs on properties so that others can collect the rent, Its usually a substantial payment upfront (equal to buying the property) or ongoing rental to get a usufruct. Not sure that there is any great business model , trading on the difference between money paid for the usufruct and rent received from a sublet.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariohh1 Posted April 9, 2021 Share Posted April 9, 2021 11 minutes ago, Peterw42 said: Yes, it possible, unless the agreement states otherwise. Any usufruct I have been involved with always had a clause forbidding sublets. (usually just a basic agreement so Thai girlfriend cant kick foreign boyfriend out) Again, what is the point, nobody is giving away usufructs on properties so that others can collect the rent, Its usually a substantial payment upfront (equal to buying the property) or ongoing rental to get a usufruct. Not sure that there is any great business model , trading on the difference between money paid for the usufruct and rent received from a sublet.. yes its up to what you write in the agreement if you do one, i have all without any agreement i can do what i want and i sold and leased them out already many times.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whizzergo Posted April 9, 2021 Author Share Posted April 9, 2021 8 hours ago, Peterw42 said: Not sure of the point you are trying to make ? You have a right of access to 12 properties that you don't own, or possibly own 49% of a company that owns the land. (I imagine it would cost a bit to keep 12 companies running) What is the point of having 12 usufructs, you can only live in one of them, and it doesn't give you any ownership. A usufruct cant be sold, doesn't give you a right to lease out the property or on-sell a lease etc. What is the point ? Nobody has said a usufruct or lease is unsafe or illegal, its just not ownership. The OP is talking about a userfruct as a "land ownership strategy" Hi Peter, From my understanding an usufruct is the closest that a foreigner can get to land ownership in Thailand (excluding the 40m investment route). It can be held for a lifetime (longer than the next best option of a 30 year lease) and it can be sublet (unless the agreement stipulates otherwise) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whizzergo Posted April 9, 2021 Author Share Posted April 9, 2021 9 hours ago, Peterw42 said: Koh Samui is renowned for (illegal) creative Thai nominee ownership schemes, there have been several crackdowns in recent years. Google the phrase "koh samui thai nominee" and you will find a history of crackdowns, arrests, raids etc. Even if you find someone who "was" successful in obtaining a userfruct, it looks like its no longer possible. This wouldn't be a particularly creative scheme. The land would be owned by a Thai and I would hold an usufruct on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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