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SURVEY: Will Thailand get the virus under control?


SURVEY: Covid, out of control or controllable?  

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46 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Spot on!!!

 

https://apnews.com/article/technology-environment-us-news-coronavirus-pandemic-health-cbcafe70b4724a7605d56d40fa294027

 

Grim view of global future offered in intelligence report

 

U.S. intelligence officials are painting a dark picture of the world’s future, writing in a report released Thursday that the coronavirus pandemic has deepened economic inequality, strained government resources and fanned nationalist sentiments.

Those assessments are included in a Global Trends report by the government’s National Intelligence Council, a document produced every four years. This year’s report is designed to help policymakers and citizens anticipate the economic, environmental, technological and demographic forces likely to shape the world through the next 20 years.

The document focuses heavily on the impact of the pandemic, calling it the “most significant, singular global disruption since World War II, with health, economic, political, and security implications that will ripple for years to come.”

Thanks for posting that well done report; I hadn't seen it before 🙂

 

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Where was the option to say no government can control COVID. No need to bash the thai government.

the third wave has already started several days ago, with many clusters and will last about 3 months (first one was march-may, second december-february). The previous ones were less contagious, s

In the end it boils down to: You can't control what can't be controlled. Believe me. I know what I'm talking about - I am married to a Thai wife!!!!

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On 4/18/2021 at 6:58 PM, Jeffr2 said:

CDC pushing an agenda?  You heard about that on social media?

Actually I agree with the recommendations to add Zinc and vitamin D to boost immunity.  I have read quite a few medical journals and other science based sources that support this notion.  I'm not saying it will prevent Covid infection but it does indeed seem to boost immunity.  Hey, every little bit helps, ya know?

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On 4/16/2021 at 8:58 AM, cdemundo said:

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/how-to-boost-your-immune-system

 

"For now, there are no scientifically proven direct links between lifestyle and enhanced immune function."

 

Common sense recommendations from the same article:

 

"Don't smoke.

Eat a diet high in fruits and vegetables.

Exercise regularly.

Maintain a healthy weight.

If you drink alcohol, drink only in moderation.

Get adequate sleep.

Take steps to avoid infection, such as washing your hands frequently and cooking meats thoroughly.

Try to minimize stress.

Keep current with all recommended vaccines. Vaccines prime your immune system to fight off infections before they take hold in your body."

 

A lot of health gurus blather on about "super charging" your immune system and such, but there really isn't a way to dramatically improve your overall immune system.

 

All these recommendations (with the exception of vaccines) are targeted at the innate (or general) immune system.

Vaccines are targeted at the adaptive (or specific) immune system which targets a specific pathogen that has been previously encountered.

The adaptive immune system targets the pathogen (virus in this case) much more effectively.

 

The most effective way to strengthen your immune system with respect to COVID is a vaccine.

That is beyond debate.

I agree with you that vaccines are the only way to train the body to recognize the spiked coronavirus and have an effective immune response to it.  However, I think you need to do a little more research before making a blanket statement that "For now, there are no scientifically proven direct links between lifestyle and enhanced immune function."  

 

That is actually a false assertion, and proves you have not dived as deeply as you should in exploring this topic from a number of truly science-based sources.  You can't just base such an assertion on one source.

 

The fact is that a number of medical journals and other science based sources document many high-quality, unbiased and, truly clinical based studies that indicate that supplemental Vitamin D and Zinc can enhance immune response, particularly in those people who might be deficient in them. 

 

Of course I'm not saying it will prevent Covid infection but they will indeed enhance immune response if you are deficinet in them. 

 

Furthermore, there are many equally valid studies that support the notion that many different lifestyle choices such as nutrition and physical activity can also seriously affect immune response, either positively or negatively depending on whether your choices are wise or ill-informed.

 

I know there are a lot of looney YouTube health gurus who spew a lot of nonsense on these topics, but there is also very credible science based information that supports these notions.  You should dive deeper into this subject 🙂

 

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7 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

Noticed you are from Chiang Mai (my former home).  Just curious to get a first hand account of how things are right now with respect to recent Covid restrictions since I've been hearing a lot of questionable talk that sounds like things are pretty depressing there right now (so sorry if that's true). 

 

So, how's life there at the moment with regard to quarenteens for those visiting from other provinces, and just daily life in general?

Hi WaveHunter, the city is very very quiet as you can imagine, the very limited domestic tourism has essentially gone and I know a number of businesses  that are on the brink.

Along with others I have put my trans provincial travel plans on hold.

Shopping and the like not too bad but some markets closed. Songkran, which should have been a lifeline, just didn't happen at all.

Finding places to escape like national parks is also a no no so overall, it is pretty much ghost town and for some , rather depressing.

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On 4/19/2021 at 12:43 AM, cdemundo said:

It is apparently true that Vitamin D, and zinc, and also Vitamin C are needed for immune system functioning.

Certainly if vitamin or mineral deficiencies exist, supplementation may be helpful.

I don't think it is true that "vitamin D and Zinc Supplements has proven to boost the effectiveness of a persons immune system", I think you are overstating the case for these supplements.

Apparently, the evidence for Vitamin D is strongest.

I have seen no convincing evidence that these measures make dramatic changes in immune function.

 

They may help but with respect to COVID, the best protection is from a vaccine.

Unless you are one of the many that has an adverse reaction to the vaccine. In which case you could end up DEAD.

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On 4/19/2021 at 3:34 PM, WaveHunter said:

Better and safer ways to deal with the situation?  Like what?  Please inform us with some examples because I am aware of none at all. 

 

This virus is not going to just disappear.  It is here to stay...forever, just like the flu virus or the common cold!  The only way viruses like this are brought under control is through herd immunity, and historically there are only two ways this has been achieved; Either through vaccines, or simply waiting until enough people die, as was the case in the The Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918.

 

A lot of "slanted" and politically charged news has been coming out about the dangers of the current vaccines lately, and a lot of it simply does not hold water when you look at the cold statistics of actual deaths or adverse reactions directly attributable to the vaccines, compared to the numbers of vaccinated people that are free from any adverse reactions.

 

Sorry to be so cold and analytical about this but there is not a single prescription drug or vaccine ever made that has been 100% free from adverse reactions in some people or even unexpected deaths.  Does that mean they should not be used at all?  Of course not!

 

Lockdowns, social distancing, and all the other measures being currently practiced are good and well, but they don't have a chance in hell of ever leading us to herd immunity. 

 

We've used these measures for over a year now, and they are having virtually no effect at truly reducing the R-Naught, especially in the most susceptible groups (people over 65, and/or with comorbidities).

 

All that these stop gap measure have really accomplished is to create an economic catastrophe that has yet to even be fully realized and will probably prove to be more devastating than the health crisis caused by the virus itself.

 

Unless you know something that most acknowledged experts don't know, VERY FAST rollouts of vaccines are the only way to deal with this pandemic, and IMO more importantly, the economic crisis that is about to unfold.

 

 

"In fact, as inexpensive, oral and widely available medications, and a nutritional supplement, the combination of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin or doxycycline, and zinc are well-suited for early treatment in the outpatient setting. The combination should be prescribed in high-risk patients immediately upon clinical suspicion of COVID-19 disease, without waiting for results of testing. Delays in waiting before starting the medications can reduce their efficacy."

 

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/hydroxychloroquine-saga-yale-professor-harvey-risch-says-it-cures-covid-19/ar-BB17msZs

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14 hours ago, ExpatOK said:

 

 

"In fact, as inexpensive, oral and widely available medications, and a nutritional supplement, the combination of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin or doxycycline, and zinc are well-suited for early treatment in the outpatient setting. The combination should be prescribed in high-risk patients immediately upon clinical suspicion of COVID-19 disease, without waiting for results of testing. Delays in waiting before starting the medications can reduce their efficacy."

 

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/hydroxychloroquine-saga-yale-professor-harvey-risch-says-it-cures-covid-19/ar-BB17msZs

Well, most of the science-based studies I've read do in fact indicate that these "treatments" involving drugs like hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin or doxycycline, and zinc may be able to slow the progression of Covid, BUT I've seen very little convincing evidence that they can halt the progression, or prevent infection.  So far, only  vaccines seem able to do this.  Wouldn't you agree?

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18 hours ago, alant said:

Hi WaveHunter, the city is very very quiet as you can imagine, the very limited domestic tourism has essentially gone and I know a number of businesses  that are on the brink.

Along with others I have put my trans provincial travel plans on hold.

Shopping and the like not too bad but some markets closed. Songkran, which should have been a lifeline, just didn't happen at all.

Finding places to escape like national parks is also a no no so overall, it is pretty much ghost town and for some , rather depressing.

So, parks are closed again?  Doi Suthep is closed off?  OMG, that's so sad to hear! 

 

I loved living in Chiang Mai until Covid hit.  I am an avid cyclist and Chiang Mai was like the ultimate playground with like minded people from all around the world sharing the experience of just being here in the Magic Kingdom riding our bikes.   

 

Once the pandemic hit, as you say, it turned into a "ghost town".  That special allure of riding in a beautiful and mysterious setting that is unique to the Kingdom just lost its luster totally, and the only salvation was lone rides up Doi Suthep just for the exercise.

 

I hope Chiang Mai can recover that "magic" it had at some point in the future, but I really wonder if that can ever really happen or if it will just be a shadow of its' former self.  Really so depressing to think about!

 

Down here in Pattaya (Jomtien), it's pretty much the same.  Songkran was hardly noticeable here this year just the same as it was last year.  The beaches, while a lot cleaner than they've ever been before, are just sort of depressing without the international mix of people normally here.  Local merchants are challenged to say the least, and there is no longer that "land of happy smiles" feel here.  It's been replaced with the look of people just struggling to survive.

 

Just hoping we see light at the end of the tunnel SOON!

 

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23 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

However, I think you need to do a little more research before making a blanket statement that "For now, there are no scientifically proven direct links between lifestyle and enhanced immune function."  

That was a quote, not my statement.

It is true that there are studies that indicate benefits from Vitamin D, Zinc, and Vitamin C on the immune system.

I concede that. 

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11 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

That was a quote, not my statement.

It is true that there are studies that indicate benefits from Vitamin D, Zinc, and Vitamin C on the immune system.

I concede that. 

OK, then I'm confused.  What point were you trying to make in your post?

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18 hours ago, Kurtf said:

Unless you are one of the many that has an adverse reaction to the vaccine. In which case you could end up DEAD.

"One of the many that has an adverse reaction"?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

"More than 919 million vaccine doses have been administered worldwide, equal to 12 doses for every 100 people."

How many adverse reactions have there been?

One of the most common logical fallacies is the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy, and because someone has an adverse health event after having a vaccination does not mean that it was caused by the vaccine.

Out of 919 million how many adverse reaction would you consider to be "many"?

6?  600? 6000?

The risk of dying from COVID is numerically high than any risk from the vaccine.

If you don't want the vaccine by all means don't get it.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

"One of the many that has an adverse reaction"?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html

"More than 919 million vaccine doses have been administered worldwide, equal to 12 doses for every 100 people."

How many adverse reactions have there been?

One of the most common logical fallacies is the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy, and because someone has an adverse health event after having a vaccination does not mean that it was caused by the vaccine.

Out of 919 million how many adverse reaction would you consider to be "many"?

6?  600? 6000?

The risk of dying from COVID is numerically high than any risk from the vaccine.

If you don't want the vaccine by all means don't get it.

I'd agree with everything in your post except the last sentence, "If you don't want the vaccine by all means don't get it."

 

Too many people look at the vaccine with a somewhat selfish mindset, like the vaccine is solely for their own protection, when IN FACT, by becoming vaccinated, you are protecting the population as a whole.  Every person should feel a sense of responsibility towards others when deciding whether or not to be vaccinated.  At least that's my take on it.

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3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

OK, then I'm confused.  What point were you trying to make in your post?

A few studies none of which are double blind placebo controlled studies are not scientific proof, but beyond that the point is this:

My point is you are not going to protect yourself from COVID by supplementing with Vitamin D, Zinc, and Vitamin C or whatever other immune booster you favor.

My point is that the vaccines are the most effective way to boost your immune function and especially to boost the acquired immunity that will specifically protect against COVID.

The supplements do nothing to boost the acquired immunity that will specifically protect against COVID.

 

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Just now, cdemundo said:

If you don't want the vaccine by all means don't get it.

An anti vaxxer having the vaccine would be like a Trumpette not voting for Trump. he's nailed his colours to the mast, no vaccine for him.

 

Me, I fly out tomorrow night and have my first vaccine appointment on Saturday lunchtime.

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2 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

I'd agree with everything in your post except the last sentence, "If you don't want the vaccine by all means don't get it."

 

Too many people look at the vaccine with a somewhat selfish mindset, like the vaccine is solely for their own protection, when IN FACT, by becoming vaccinated, you are protecting the population as a whole.  Every person should feel a sense of responsibility towards others when deciding whether or not to be vaccinated.  At least that's my take on it.

Go ahead and try and change somebody's mind on this topic.

Discussions are interesting but realistically few (none?) are going to change their mind.

 

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12 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

A few studies none of which are double blind placebo controlled studies are not scientific proof, but beyond that the point is this:

My point is you are not going to protect yourself from COVID by supplementing with Vitamin D, Zinc, and Vitamin C or whatever other immune booster you favor.

My point is that the vaccines are the most effective way to boost your immune function and especially to boost the acquired immunity that will specifically protect against COVID.

The supplements do nothing to boost the acquired immunity that will specifically protect against COVID.

 

Keep in mind that the terms "immune response" and "acquired immunity" are two completely different things.

 

I agree with you that these supplements will not prevent infection but I'd argue that they probably do in fact enhance the immune response , particularly for people with deficiencies.  There is a strong causal relationship between deficiencies in Vitamin D and Zinc, and in immune response.

 

Anything that enhances the immune response will minimize the possibility of infection...not prevent infection, but minimize the possibility.  

 

Of course, only the vaccines have the possibility of preventing infection since they provide "acquired immunity", but there is absolutely no downside to supplementing with Vitamin D and Zinc, and if you are actually deficient in them, it would seem to be just as wise a preventative step to take as wearing a mask or social distancing (both of which also will not prevent infection but minimize the possibility). 

 

I think that's really the mindset behind the recommendations to use these supplements.

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3 minutes ago, WaveHunter said:

Well, I agree with you that these supplements will not prevent infection but I'd argue that they do in fact enhance the immune response, particularly for people with deficiencies.  Anything that enhances the immune response will minimize the possibility of infection...not prevent infection, but minimize the possibility.  

 

Of course, only the vaccines have the possibility of preventing infection, but there is absolutely no downside to supplementing with Vitamin D and Zinc, and if you are actually deficient in them, it would seem to be just as wise a step to take as wearing a mask or social distancing IMHO.

The thing I am arguing against is that some here are clearly advocating boosting the immune system instead of getting vaccinated.  "You'd don't need vaccination if you have a strong immune system." Or words to that effect have been put forth in TVF repeatedly.

I am not trying to stamp out dietary supplements, especially since (as you point out) they are clearly beneficial for those with a deficiency.

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23 minutes ago, cdemundo said:

The thing I am arguing against is that some here are clearly advocating boosting the immune system instead of getting vaccinated.  "You'd don't need vaccination if you have a strong immune system." Or words to that effect have been put forth in TVF repeatedly.

I am not trying to stamp out dietary supplements, especially since (as you point out) they are clearly beneficial for those with a deficiency.

Well then we both agree that they are quite mistaken and need to do their homework a little better.  I guess we're both more on the same page here than I originally thought.  Thanks for clarifying 🙂

 

I have to say, you sure do hear a lot of odd things said on this forum (like from people you mentioned that feel vaccines are unnecessary); comments  that have not one ounce of common sense and only based on pseudoscience, but stated with adamant conviction and a desire to defend their position to the death  LOL!

 

 

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I guess it depends on ones definition of "under control"  I don't think the government is inept.  Perhaps things could be done to speed up the Covid vaccine distribution.  However if you look at the entire world, they are all struggling to come up with any regimen that significantly limits the spread of the virus.  I 'think" that Covid will be like numerous other viruses.  That is with us for a long time if not forever and we will learn to co-exist with it, and just like Dengue, Fever, Malaria, TB, and the Flu, a certain percentage of the population will become sick from it, and a certain percentage of people will get terribly sick and/or die from contracting it. 

 

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5 hours ago, WaveHunter said:

So, parks are closed again?  Doi Suthep is closed off?  OMG, that's so sad to hear! 

 

I loved living in Chiang Mai until Covid hit.  I am an avid cyclist and Chiang Mai was like the ultimate playground with like minded people from all around the world sharing the experience of just being here in the Magic Kingdom riding our bikes.   

 

Once the pandemic hit, as you say, it turned into a "ghost town".  That special allure of riding in a beautiful and mysterious setting that is unique to the Kingdom just lost its luster totally, and the only salvation was lone rides up Doi Suthep just for the exercise.

 

I hope Chiang Mai can recover that "magic" it had at some point in the future, but I really wonder if that can ever really happen or if it will just be a shadow of its' former self.  Really so depressing to think about!

 

Down here in Pattaya (Jomtien), it's pretty much the same.  Songkran was hardly noticeable here this year just the same as it was last year.  The beaches, while a lot cleaner than they've ever been before, are just sort of depressing without the international mix of people normally here.  Local merchants are challenged to say the least, and there is no longer that "land of happy smiles" feel here.  It's been replaced with the look of people just struggling to survive.

 

Just hoping we see light at the end of the tunnel SOON!

 

thanks for the info on Jomtien

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23 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I guess it depends on ones definition of "under control"  I don't think the government is inept.  Perhaps things could be done to speed up the Covid vaccine distribution.  However if you look at the entire world, they are all struggling to come up with any regimen that significantly limits the spread of the virus.  I 'think" that Covid will be like numerous other viruses.  That is with us for a long time if not forever and we will learn to co-exist with it, and just like Dengue, Fever, Malaria, TB, and the Flu, a certain percentage of the population will become sick from it, and a certain percentage of people will get terribly sick and/or die from contracting it. 

 

I agree; I also think this virus is here to stay just like all the other viruses you mentioned.  What's really vital right now is to get the vaccines rolled out as fast as possible so that herd immunity can be reached which will allow us all to get back to a more normal way of living, and most importantly save national economies from tanking in a completely unprecedented way that we've never seen before.

 

It's estimated that this pandemic will cost the US over 16 TRILLION dollars in debt and lost productivity if the pandemic ends by this Fall!  Add up the debt and lost productivity of other countries all around the world from this pandemic, and you're really talking about a major depression that would probably be more devastating than the "Great Depression" of 1929.

 

I don't think most governments are inept in dealing with the vaccine rollouts but I think there's far too much political wrangling and false narratives going on for partisan reasons which just leads to decisions being made based on emotional hysteria instead of rational science based reasoning.  The holdup on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is a perfect case in point.

 

In retrospect, the real devastation of this pandemic will be an economic crisis that far surpoasses the health crisis we now face, if governments don't start acting smartly and decisively, and stop playing these games.

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Well, 3 cases of Covid have just been detected here in Jomtien a few hours ago in a condo building next to where I live.  That's what I was told by a policeman when I saw a bunch of police cars at the condo next door and asked what was going on.   I don't have any more details other than what the policeman told me. 

 

Everybody in Jomtien...Take precautions seriously and stay safe.

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On 4/21/2021 at 12:10 PM, WaveHunter said:

I'd agree with everything in your post except the last sentence, "If you don't want the vaccine by all means don't get it."

 

Too many people look at the vaccine with a somewhat selfish mindset, like the vaccine is solely for their own protection, when IN FACT, by becoming vaccinated, you are protecting the population as a whole.  Every person should feel a sense of responsibility towards others when deciding whether or not to be vaccinated.  At least that's my take on it.

You can take your take and stick your take where the sun doesn't shine.

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On 4/21/2021 at 10:05 AM, WaveHunter said:

The thing that many opponents to vaccines seem to not take into account is that EVERY single drug on the market can have adverse effects in SOME people.  Over-the-counter Tylenol, for example has killed far more people than any of the vaccines have, ya know?

 

The pause that has occurred with the distribution of the J&J vaccine is ludicrous IMO!  Just eight people out of roughly 7.4 million who received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine have developed a blood-clot complication. Only one person has died...just ONE!

 

 A causal relationship between the vaccine and these blood clots has not yet even been established!  Moreover, nearly all the adverse events are in women 18 to 48 years old.  Yet government officials all around the world have stopped all people, regardless of age or gender, from getting the J&J vaccine.

 

This makes no sense. We are in the midst of a public health emergency.  Demand for vaccines still far exceeds supply. There are no stockpiles of extra doses of the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines sitting on refrigerated shelves in warehouses waiting to replace all the Johnson & Johnson doses the government has withheld. 

 

This is just INSANE!!!  It's just another example of emotional hysteria replacing rational and science-based reasoning in how we're dealing with Covid-19.  I think we deserve much better leadership from those in power right now...MUCH BETTER!

Quick Panic. The sky is falling. It's amazing to me that no one has died from the flu this past year. The only deaths are from Covid. Isn't that miraculous. Covid has cured influenza.

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On 4/19/2021 at 11:12 AM, cdemundo said:

If I am not mistaken, herd immunity to a communicable disease has never been achieved without a vaccine.

I would be interested to know if there is a historical example of this happening.

Have heard people cite SARS but this not true, SARS was eliminated by the "old timey" techniques of track, trace and isolate.

You are mistaken. Herd immunity was accomplished with the Spanish Flu in 1919. There was no vaccine.

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1 hour ago, Kurtf said:

Quick Panic. The sky is falling. It's amazing to me that no one has died from the flu this past year. The only deaths are from Covid. Isn't that miraculous. Covid has cured influenza.

Exactly what planet do you live on anyway?  Preliminary CDC estimates between 24,000 and 62,000 lost their lives to the flu in the last year in the US alone!.

 

No deaths, huh?  

 

The latest data on the COVID-19 pandemic indicates that COVID-19 is proving to be FAR FAR deadlier!

 

Whatever point you're trying to make alludes me completely.  

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On 4/11/2021 at 1:11 PM, Freigeist365 said:

In the end it boils down to:

You can't control what can't be controlled.

Believe me. I know what I'm talking about - I am married to a Thai wife!!!!

Perhaps time for a "Thai wife exchange"?

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1 hour ago, Kurtf said:

You are mistaken. Herd immunity was accomplished with the Spanish Flu in 1919. There was no vaccine.

Oh yes, you're right... 

 

Herd immunity was achieved in the Spanish Flu pandemic, and it only cost over 500 million people becoming infected (which was 1/3 of the world's population back then).  It's estimated that anywhere from 17 million to 100 million people paid the ultimate price for that herd immunity.  They DIED.

 

They had no choice for a vaccine to provide herd immunity.  We do.  

 

So, the OP you say is mistaken is actually correct. Vaccines are the only way to reach herd immunity unless such loss of life is an acceptable price to pay in your mind. 

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