Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[onthemoon]

18 minutes ago, GarryP said:

If you are going to go with gift giving, the gifts should not have a value of more than Baht 3,000 so as to avoid claims off corruption.  It is legal to give gifts with a value below said amount, as long as it is not as an inducement to do or not to do something as the case may be.

It's never wrong to give gifts when appropriate and show that you care. We do that with all our customers. There are organisations that limit the value of gifts the employees are allowed to accept. Some organisations limit that to zero; OK, then you cannot give anything.

 

However, the important thing if you want something from an employee of any organisation (be it a government employee or a waiter in the restaurant) is to be friendly. That has helped me a lot in the past, also with Thai government employees. I have never tried to bribe anybody and do not intend to do so - I wouldn't feel good about it, as it would be against what I stand for.

 

And also: What if it comes out later and then your citizenship is revoked?

[onthemoon]

10 minutes ago, VIBE said:

He also asked why on the list of company objectives, there were so many items?  This was standard practice when setting up a company here, the lawyers list many many ways the company can make revenue, in case they want to brach out I would think.  Saves re-submitting the paperwork again.  My company does have some income, but the main reason we started it was I NEEDED to pay tax for 3 years, so with out my own company, it would not have been possible to apply.  They set these crazy rules, then question people when they find a way to fulfill them....:(

So, you know the answer why he scrutinized the company so much: He had a feeling you opened the company mainly to pay taxes for 3 years for the citizenship application, not because you really wanted to do business.

[GarryP]

17 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

It's never wrong to give gifts when appropriate and show that you care. We do that with all our customers. There are organisations that limit the value of gifts the employees are allowed to accept. Some organisations limit that to zero; OK, then you cannot give anything.

 

However, the important thing if you want something from an employee of any organisation (be it a government employee or a waiter in the restaurant) is to be friendly. That has helped me a lot in the past, also with Thai government employees. I have never tried to bribe anybody and do not intend to do so - I wouldn't feel good about it, as it would be against what I stand for.

 

And also: What if it comes out later and then your citizenship is revoked?

I am not suggesting anyone be corrupt. I am not telling anyone not to give gifts either. But I am warning that the giving of gifts over Baht 3,000 to government officers could be judged as bribery, even when given with good intentions. It is the law in respect of giving gifts to government officers.  And like you say, all it needs is someone who doesn't like you or the officer who received your gift (jealousy) to raise this point to put your application in jeopardy.  It is just not worth the risk. So keep any gift giving within the ambit of the law.  

 

 

[Big Guns]

To answer Greenchair no official has ever visited my house. In the spirit of clarity for other applicants who may be worried please be aware that you don't need to be able to speak Thai at all. Some posters and moderators on here may have their own opinions but the rules are if you have a Thai wife you dont have to be able to speak Thai. Even with my Thai passport the immigration official spoke to me in English. Great news for those of us who are rubbish at foreign languages ?

17 minutes ago, VIBE said:

 

On 30/12/2017 at 6:40 PM, Neeranam said:

 

[greenchair]

39 minutes ago, VIBE said:

I think you are right.  The most questions he asked were about my company.  Where does the money come from, ect.  Said if I don't have enough money I will get rejected.  Informed him the company has 6M THB of paid up capital, and my salary of 100K per month, plus 2 Thai staff.  There are 3 shareholders.  He does not really know what he is talking about, cause he told my wife that we needed 7 share holders.  My wife replied with confidence that was not correct, 3 is enough.  We made sure we set up the company properly, and do everything by the book.  He is waiting for all the company documents to prove the taxes ect, which, we submitted with the original application, but what ever, will give to him.  If, after this, he requests more documents, will will inform the police officer that we submitted our application with of the issues, and get him involved.

That doesn't sound like a good idea at all. 

Thais look out for each other. Even when you think they are your friend, they look out for each other above taking care of a foreigner. As another poster said, attitude is everything. 

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, THAIJAMES said:

Although I despise corruption and under the table antics.  This is Thailand.  Too many times during my 30 years here I have been put through obstacles and long wait times (8 years for my PR to be approved) because I refused to pay any "incentives".  
I am not so sure this time I would put my citizenship application under risk because of my moral beliefs.  It's not like you are giving them a basket for them to do something illegal.  You just want them to do their job.  Many in Thai government have paid for their position.  Unless they get paid back, you are either at the back of the list or no action is taken.

So it might make the difference between waiting 1 year, 8 years or no cooperation and even sabotage.

 

So do you give a basket to the officer and he will expect that or more from everyone else in the future or do you hold your moral ground, not knowing if your application will be sabotaged.
 

I have twice been subjected to the old routine in police offices, "Oh, it's nearly noon.  We are going to break for lunch and there is not enough time to do this for you.  You are not in a hurry, are you? You can come back at 2.00 or 2.30 (after unusually long lunch break)."  One was a police doctor at Immigration when I had to get a yellow fever vaccination to come back from Brazil.  The other was a police licensing department that had to take finger prints.  The doctor demanded B500 and the police corporal doing the finger prints wanted B200.  Just recently I was asked for B3,000 at a uniformly sulky faced land office to process a simple title deed transfer "without delays".  Another office in the same province processed a far more complicated transfer the following day with smiling faces and no demands for bribes.  

 

A lot depends on who is the current boss boss of a department but corruption is still endemic in the police and other government departments and there is no sign of it going away.  In fact many businessmen have claimed that it has got worse under the current government because they say the military is now demanding their own cut of projects.  We don't like it but we have to live in the real world.  Nevertheless, Garry's advice on the B3,000 limit for gifts to government officers is well worth heading.  There is a lot of jealousy, factionalism and political back stabbing in government offices.

 

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, VIBE said:

Well, I think its reasonable to inform the guy we submitted with, as he was very helpful and friendly, and best to let him know if this guy keeps asking for arbitrary documents.  Maybe all he has to do is give him a call to ask him whats going on and if everything is ok?  Yes, Thais look out for Thais, but my wife who is 8 months prego is also Thai, so why would he not want to help her?  I don't understand your remark about attitude.  We have been very friendly with him, and never questioned any of his requests, but he is just not friendly and I think does not really know what he is meant to do.  The first officer that came to the condo talked to me for all of 5 mins, took a photo of me and my wife in the condo and left.  But this guy is an entirely different story.  My feeling is its not malice intend, but just not knowing whats required of him.  But if its because he does not know what he is meant to do, then a call from the officer we submitted the application with may shed some light for him.  I hope.

Good luck 

[greenchair]

21 minutes ago, Arkady said:

I have twice been subjected to the old routine in police offices, "Oh, it's nearly noon.  We are going to break for lunch and there is not enough time to do this for you.  You are not in a hurry, are you? You can come back at 2.00 or 2.30 (after unusually long lunch break)."  One was a police doctor at Immigration when I had to get a yellow fever vaccination to come back from Brazil.  The other was a police licensing department that had to take finger prints.  The doctor demanded B500 and the police corporal doing the finger prints wanted B200.  Just recently I was asked for B3,000 at a uniformly sulky faced land office to process a simple title deed transfer "without delays".  Another office in the same province processed a far more complicated transfer the following day with smiling faces and no demands for bribes.  

 

A lot depends on who is the current boss boss of a department but corruption is still endemic in the police and other government departments and there is no sign of it going away.  In fact many businessmen have claimed that it has got worse under the current government because they say the military is now demanding their own cut of projects.  We don't like it but we have to live in the real world.  Nevertheless, Garry's advice on the B3,000 limit for gifts to government officers is well worth heading.  There is a lot of jealousy, factionalism and political back stabbing in government offices.

 

Well you are absolutely right. 

In a utopian world. ...

But in the real world. ...

Acceptance is the key. 

Women are homogeneous. 

Men are polygomist. 

And it's a wise woman that knows it. 

I don't think a basket of goodies at new years would be considered a bribe. And since it is for the office, then everyone can share. No need for jealousy. It is a tradition in Thailand. I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, VIBE said:

Well it just so happened that after I opened the Thai company, my job as freelance working in the UK encounter restrictions that the companies I work for no longer can employ individuals, that I must have a registered company.  So since then, I invoice the overseas company from my Thai company, and funds get remitted into company bank account.  This, I explained to him as well.  

 

If this means that you were working in Thailand without WP before you set up the company, I would not mention it in any future interviews.

 

Immigration used to (and probably still does) have a rule of thumb to screen out PR applicants from "man of straw" companies. They just rejected everyone working for a company with the minimum B2 million paid-up capital (now B1million, if you have a Thai spouse) needed to get a work permit without disclosing the real reason for rejection. That saved them the trouble of delving into the details like this guy has been doing. However, your company would have passed that test, since you have B6 million paid-up capital, which is a point worth emphasising in future discussions on the topic. 

 

I think your company should pass muster, if it is paying some corporate income tax and is registered for VAT etc.  There is no regulation that says applicants are not allowed to be employed by small businesses.  As you mention, the questions about the number of shareholders and the objectives in the company memorandum and articles of association are just plain stupid and show the officer's ignorance of incorporation.  One thing that struck me though, is that you say you have only 2 Thai employees, whereas the general rule from the Labour Ministry is 4 Thai employees per WP.  Some Labour Offices outside Bangkok are more lax about this but remember that the Labour Ministry has representatives on the big and small committees at the MoI and could query this, however remote the possibility might be.   

[onthemoon]

5 hours ago, onthemoon said:

 I have intention of selling my shares in order to simplify the way to citizenship. We have to produce all the tax documents etc anyway for the work permit now, it is just a matter of making another copy.

Correction: I meant to say I have NO intention of selling my shares.

 

Also, with the National Single Window being implemented in more and more ministries and agencies, one of these days it won't be necessary any more to submit copies of documents.

[Arkady]

13 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

Correction: I meant to say I have NO intention of selling my shares.

 

Also, with the National Single Window being implemented in more and more ministries and agencies, one of these days it won't be necessary any more to submit copies of documents.

It is hard to imagine government offices (and banks) not collecting and storing millions of photocopies of ID cards and tabien baans.  I don't even see the point of having a tabien baan at all, since it has no photographs and the ID card has both your photograph and your address.  I guess it is something that it originated with the first census in the early 50s before they started issuing ID cards and has never been dumped. But the MoFA has led the way with its passport service that just puts your ID card into a reader and doesn't ask for your tabien baan or for photocopies of anything.  I am told the passport service is virtually all outsourced.    

[THAIJAMES]

12 hours ago, VIBE said:

He also asked why on the list of company objectives, there were so many items?  This was standard practice when setting up a company here, the lawyers list many many ways the company can make revenue, in case they want to brach out I would think.  Saves re-submitting the paperwork again.  My company does have some income, but the main reason we started it was I NEEDED to pay tax for 3 years, so with out my own company, it would not have been possible to apply.  They set these crazy rules, then question people when they find a way to fulfill them....:(

Just have to be patient, at least your application is getting processed.   When I last went to enquire about citizenships applications a couple years ago in Chiang Mai.  They claimed to have more than 500 applications on record and no one having succeeded. ( I am assuming not passed on to MOI)

At the same time I personally know a couple mainland Chinese that have gotten citizenship using back channels.

 

And even more confusing, I went to the local BORA office and they are also accepting citizenship applications and showed me a couple foreigners that had recently been given citizenship in Chiang mai.

Edited January 1, 2018 by THAIJAMES

[Neeranam]

14 hours ago, greenchair said:

Yes, but when you fill in all the forms, which address do you put? 

The tabien baan or the province where you live? 

The tabien bahn in Bkk

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

The tabien bahn in Bkk

So then do you just let them know to come to the province to visit?

[Big Guns]

In my experience they didn't visit my house

[Neeranam]

8 hours ago, greenchair said:

So then do you just let them know to come to the province to visit?

The SB know where l live. They said they'd organize the local SB to do this. 

The big boss was happy with my explanation of why I was applying from Bangkok. 

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Big Guns said:

In my experience they didn't visit my house

Did they say they would?

Maybe just to check I still live with my wife.

[Big Guns]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Did they say they would?

Maybe just to check I still live with my wife.

No they never mentioned popping round & my only contact with officials was during the interview process.

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

The SB know where l live. They said they'd organize the local SB to do this. 

The big boss was happy with my explanation of why I was applying from Bangkok. 

Well thank you 

[roulax]

On 12/28/2017 at 10:05 PM, Arkady said:

 

Unless you don't want to register your marriage or can't on the grounds that one or other of you is already married to someone else, registering your marriage to your Thai partner will be your quickest route.  Since you already have children with her, you will be eligible to apply for citizenship only one year after registration of your marriage.  (It would be three years without children.)  It sounds like you already meet the requirements for three years continuous WP and visa and three years tax receipts.  Getting PR first is a much longer way round because you need five years' PR before you can apply.

 

If you and your partner are able and willing to go the marriage registration route, you should start making some donations to registered Thai charities and plan a trip to SB in Bangkok to make initial enquiries.  A year ahead of application is about right.  Take all your docs and your partner, her docs and your kids' docs with you and they will tell you which ones you need to correct (nearly every one has something wrong with at least one of their Thai docs, even if it is a wrong tone mark in the Thai spelling of their name) and which new ones you need.  You will need a tabien baan, if you haven't already got one.  I don't know, if Rayong is a viable province to apply from - probably not as nearly all provinces outside Bangkok except maybe Phuket, Chonburi and possibly Chiang Mai seem to be non-starters.  So there is a good possibility that you will have to get a tabien baan in Bangkok and apply to SB there.  They can advise you on this to a certain extent.

Dear Arkady,

 

So many thanks for this very complete answer. It is really really helpful for me

 

Thanks

 

 

[skyaslimit]

Has any of you transfered red police book along with your thabian baan to Bangkok before applying at SB recently? If yes please share the details.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[new101]

Hi all, I created a new topic but have received no constructive answers (apart from ubonjoes - thanks :)) and wondered if I'd have more luck here?

 

Any way, copied below:

 

First of all I would like to point out that I have read in depth the brilliant hundred page + topic on this and just have a few further questions I am unable to find the answers to.

 

In 6 months I will have paid tax for 3 years with an extension based on marriage and WP.

 

My question is - I am based in Chiang Mai and formed the company solely for the purpose of wishing to go for citizenship and funnel all my foreign income through the Thai company. I am not a director but am a shareholder. When the company was formed I received the WP without the need to have any Thai staff and have not found any other reports of this??? - and have extended WP first for 1 year and then 2 years, I have extended my visa each team with tax return evidence. My WP was and is fully sorted by an agent.

 

So when applying for citizenship do I need to show company paperwork? If yes and I transferred my shares to my wife meaning I was only an employee and not a director or shareholder would I still need to show the company paperwork?

 

I pay tax on 62k a month so should get maximum points for salary being married? (I paid tax on 50k for the first 2 years if that makes a difference - does it go off the last year? If not can I average it out and pay more for the next 6 months o 1 year?

 

The company has submitted returns yearly with zero profit eg 80k comes in one month I pay myself 62k and my wife gets a salary of the rest up to maximum allowed without paying tax the rest is saved for expenses.

 

Now of course there are no rules I can find that say the method of which you pay tax is taken into account however I am aware that this may not look ideal so would prefer to not have to show any company documents - I can't imagine someone working for a huge Thai public company for example and them being required to show that companies documentation?

 

If anyone could enlighten me about this I would be most grateful.

 

On a side note the points for age seem in my opinion to be quite backwards with younger people being penalised? 5 points for 30-40 whereas 10 points for 40 to 50.

 

Lastly what does:

 

"Has evidence of civil registration showing domicile in Thailand for at least 5 years but no Certificate of Residence or Alien Registration Certificate – 5 points"

 

Mean?

 

Being registered in a yellow book??

 

If so I don't have this and will be right on the line of points of acceptance 50 to 55 - will this hinder my application?

 

Age - 5 points

Security of Profession - 25 points

Knowledge of Thai Language - 10 points (Getting there with reading and writing so depending on how difficult 15 points)

Knowledge of Thailand - I assume should be a question of learning facts and history so should be down for 10 points

Personality - Lets hope 5 points

 

So 40 a definite with a possible 20 more on the cards so 50 should be doable.

 

0 points for education - Is one penalised for not having attended university in any other way about from 0 points?

 

Thanks all

[GabbaGabbaHey]

3 hours ago, new101 said:

[...] I pay tax on 62k a month so should get maximum points for salary being married?

[...] On a side note the points for age seem in my opinion to be quite backwards with younger people being penalised? 5 points for 30-40 whereas 10 points for 40 to 50.

[...] Lastly what does: "Has evidence of civil registration showing domicile in Thailand for at least 5 years but no Certificate of Residence or Alien Registration Certificate – 5 points" Mean?

Being registered in a yellow book??

- Yes

- It's actually 4 points for 31-40. (Less than 30=>2,  31-40=>4, 41-50=>10, 51-60=>8, More than 60=>4)

- Yes, 5 points can be obtained from 5 years under yellow book.

Edited January 3, 2018 by GabbaGabbaHey

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, new101 said:

First of all I would like to point out that I have read in depth the brilliant hundred page + topic on this and just have a few further questions I am unable to find the answers to.

 

In 6 months I will have paid tax for 3 years with an extension based on marriage and WP.

 

My question is - I am based in Chiang Mai and formed the company solely for the purpose of wishing to go for citizenship and funnel all my foreign income through the Thai company. I am not a director but am a shareholder. When the company was formed I received the WP without the need to have any Thai staff and have not found any other reports of this??? - and have extended WP first for 1 year and then 2 years, I have extended my visa each team with tax return evidence. My WP was and is fully sorted by an agent.

 

So when applying for citizenship do I need to show company paperwork? If yes and I transferred my shares to my wife meaning I was only an employee and not a director or shareholder would I still need to show the company paperwork?

These are the requirements for company documentation in the  guidelines.

 

10. Evidence of the applicant’s employer, including company registration certificate, nangsue raprong list of shareholders, VAT registration certificate (phor phor 20) & etc. (1 copy of each)

 11. Evidence of one year’s corporate income tax payment (Phor Ngor Dor 50), if the applicant is a shareholder.

So you need to submit the company's corporate income tax documentation, if you are shown as a shareholder on the list of shareholders you submit under guideline 10.  This is just a snapshot that only shows the latest list of shareholders. So if you sold your shares the day before, your name will not be on the list and you don't need to submit the company's tax data.  You can still be a director without having to submit this.  Since it is a small company without large tax payments, I agree it makes sense not to have any shares at the time you apply.  You can always repurchase them later because they only care about the moment you apply.  Depending on what you submit under guideline 10, you might be asked to submit more company documents, e.g. in my case I worked for a company with a finance licence and was asked to submit a certified copy of that.

 

Obviously you will be asked about your company and it is wise to make it sound as substantial as and de-emphasise the reason you mentioned for starting the company which might throw up some doubts about your qualifications in in the minds of some people.  Since it is small now, you could focus more on the future where you may be planning to do some local marketing and add more Thai clients (and Thai staff) to the list of foreign clients you brought to the business. 

 

What I am saying applies to applications in Bangkok where SB follows the MoI guidelines fairly closely, since the MoI is the one that processes the applications after them.  You will no doubt have read the recent discussion in this thread about a poster applying in Chiang Mai and finding that SB or whatever police department he applied to Chiang Mai had a number of questions of their own that were quite off the beaten track of the guidelines and whatever information the MoI needs to process your application.  If this gets out of hand, applicants in Chiang Mai can pull their applications from the Chiang Mai office and get on a tabien baan in Bangkok and apply in the normal way without BS to SB.

 

 

[new101]

Great thanks Arkady looks like I will need to improve the company somewhat :)

 

With regards to education is this just related to the points? ie no degree means getting 0 points, or are there other penalties for not having a degree?

[skippybangkok]

Hi all, I created a new topic but have received no constructive answers (apart from ubonjoes - thanks :)) and wondered if I'd have more luck here?  

Any way, copied below:

 

 

First of all I would like to point out that I have read in depth the brilliant hundred page + topic on this and just have a few further questions I am unable to find the answers to.

 

In 6 months I will have paid tax for 3 years with an extension based on marriage and WP.

 

My question is - I am based in Chiang Mai and formed the company solely for the purpose of wishing to go for citizenship and funnel all my foreign income through the Thai company. I am not a director but am a shareholder. When the company was formed I received the WP without the need to have any Thai staff and have not found any other reports of this??? - and have extended WP first for 1 year and then 2 years, I have extended my visa each team with tax return evidence. My WP was and is fully sorted by an agent.

 

So when applying for citizenship do I need to show company paperwork? If yes and I transferred my shares to my wife meaning I was only an employee and not a director or shareholder would I still need to show the company paperwork?

 

I pay tax on 62k a month so should get maximum points for salary being married? (I paid tax on 50k for the first 2 years if that makes a difference - does it go off the last year? If not can I average it out and pay more for the next 6 months o 1 year?

 

The company has submitted returns yearly with zero profit eg 80k comes in one month I pay myself 62k and my wife gets a salary of the rest up to maximum allowed without paying tax the rest is saved for expenses.

 

Now of course there are no rules I can find that say the method of which you pay tax is taken into account however I am aware that this may not look ideal so would prefer to not have to show any company documents - I can't imagine someone working for a huge Thai public company for example and them being required to show that companies documentation?

 

If anyone could enlighten me about this I would be most grateful.

 

On a side note the points for age seem in my opinion to be quite backwards with younger people being penalised? 5 points for 30-40 whereas 10 points for 40 to 50.

 

Lastly what does:

 

"Has evidence of civil registration showing domicile in Thailand for at least 5 years but no Certificate of Residence or Alien Registration Certificate – 5 points"

 

Mean?

 

Being registered in a yellow book??

 

If so I don't have this and will be right on the line of points of acceptance 50 to 55 - will this hinder my application?

 

Age - 5 points

Security of Profession - 25 points

Knowledge of Thai Language - 10 points (Getting there with reading and writing so depending on how difficult 15 points)

Knowledge of Thailand - I assume should be a question of learning facts and history so should be down for 10 points

Personality - Lets hope 5 points

 

So 40 a definite with a possible 20 more on the cards so 50 should be doable.

 

0 points for education - Is one penalised for not having attended university in any other way about from 0 points?

 

Thanks all

 

 

I am just guessing and would assume SB can give you final assessment

 

They are very thorough and my assumption is they would be trying to filter out shell companies or fake marriages set for the purpose of just getting a PR or citz. If it’s a shell, I assume paid up capital would be low ?

 

Best wishes - again , my opinion is just an opinion and I could be totally wrong

 

Ps - yes, I used to work for a large public listed company and had to come with a wheel barrow of certified company docs - was a lot ( ok - exaggerated, but I think it was about 15cm stack of A4 paper )

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

[anon789561]

Just now, new101 said:

Great thanks Arkady looks like I will need to improve the company somewhat :)

 

With regards to education is this just related to the points? ie no degree means getting 0 points, or are there other penalties for not having a degree?

i assume you an aussie with the points system. that doesn't apply here, only to teachers as far as i know. work in a different field but always got WP without a degree

[new101]

Registered capital is 3.5 million and the company turns over only about 1 million which all goes in salaries (me and wife) and yearly fees. Also we are not VAT registered.

[new101]

1 minute ago, Happy enough said:

i assume you an aussie with the points system. that doesn't apply here, only to teachers as far as i know. work in a different field but always got WP without a degree

There are points for citizenship total of 100 available with 50 needed to pass, I should have a definite 40 with another 20 a possibility.

[anon789561]

Just now, new101 said:

There are points for citizenship total of 100 available with 50 needed to pass, I should have a definite 40 with another 20 a possibility.

really, learn something new everyday ; )