Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[skippybangkok]

I had another "Thai mai phor" experience at a Land Office in a provincial capital in Isaan yesterday.  The head or second head of registrations didn't want to transfer land into a "foreigner's" name.   So she demanded originals of all documents and her eyes lit up when I said I didn't have the original of my naturalisation certificate, which like most people I keep safely at home. She tried to order me to register the land in my wife's name.  Eventually after much argument from myself demanding my rights as a Thai under the constitution and from my wife, she allowed the transfer after forcing me to sign a ridiculous note scrawled in her illegible hand writing which neither my wife nor my mother-in-law could read, let alone me.  I took a picture of it feeling like a Burmese being forced to sign something to stop a beating in a police station and the jist of it that she had to read out to us seemed to be that I had only presented a copy of the naturalisation certificates, having made the mistake of leaving the original at home in Bangkok, and that I promise that I am a bona fide naturalised Thai citizen and have not yet had my citizenship revoked.   I asked why she thought the latter clause was necessary and she said that we foreigners can easily have our citizenship revoked for doing something wrong.  I told her that according to the RG this was extremely rare and the last people to have their citizenship revoked successfully sued the Interior Minister in the Administrative Court and got their citizenship restored by order of the court (after 16 years which I didn't mention).  All the time she keep referring to me as a "tang dao" and I corrected her each time saying I was a Thai.
 
Later on I was joking with one of her subordinates who was very helpful and said that most of the forged ID cards were held by Chinese and suggested they would catch more people if they investigated those who came into the office with Chinese faces, rather than white faces, having noted that her boss seemed to have one of those herself.  I told the boss that the naturalisation certificate was actually the easiest of all the documents to forge, as it was just thrown together by the police in a few minutes while I waited.  I said it was odd that she should put so much faith in that, rather than a smart card ID which she could check online with DOPA who would surely tell her online or over the phone if the owner's citizenship had been cancelled.  She replied that there was an order from the Interior Ministry telling them to check all original documents, including naturalisation certificates. This may or may not be true but few land officers bother to check all original documents, except ID cards,  and I doubt very much they specified naturalisation certificate which she had probably never heard of until she saw the copy of mine.  Anyway she had just lied to the seller telling him that sale or redemption (khai faak) can only be registered if for 2 years or more when the Land Code only specifies that it should be no longer than 10 years.  This lie had already been accepted by the seller by the time I arrived, so I didn't have the opportunity to do battle with her over that but government official who lies about the main law under which they operate to people they believe are ignorant and can easily be cowed by officialdom has no credibility in my book. Why bother to read regulations when you can just make up your own and lord it over the peasants under your jurisdiction?
 
Finally when it was all done she turned friendly and engaged my wife in conversation about cosmetics taking her LINE ID to try and sell her some direct sales line she was selling.
 
I know one should keep one's cool in these situations but we have fought hard to get Thai citizenship and often been made to made many years because of corrupt officials deliberately dragging their heels.  So I will defend my rights as a Thai tooth and nail.  I resent being referred to as a foreigner by civil servants who are paid from my tax money just because of the colour of my skin. 
 
The whole thing was the more strange because I just completed a land purchase in a small office of the same province a month earlier and the head of registrations accepted all photocopies apart from my ID card without question and couldn't have been nicer.  He chatted with me outside when I bumped into him having a smoking break and offered some advice a road project alongside my land which the former owner had blocked as she didn't want to have 2 ngarn cut off her land.
 
This is only the second time anyone has asked me for a copy of my naturalisation certificate.  The other case was oddly at Bangkok Bank in order to change the nationality of my account to Thai which provides no advantage whatsoever apart from convenience to the holder. 
 
I wonder what they ask for from wives of Thai men who get citizenship under Section 9, since they don't get a naturalilsation certificate.  I guess they have to get hold of an original copy of the RG volume their name appeared in or maybe they are just told it is their husband's role to own land and have an account at Bangkok Bank.
 

Sad but good write up.

It’s a bit like when we had PR’s and everyone wanting to see your non existent visa - I just gave in and showed them my re entry visa - the morons gleefully wrote down the details and were satisfied

Understand the frustration. I am assuming there is rampant fraud for ID card from City Halls, and maybe they trust the police cert more. Agree, not too hard to forge

I would say best is the online, but even than can be fraud as people can enter data.






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[onthemoon]

I am wondering why a naturalised citizen will have to bring any documents referring to the naturalisation process at all. Isn't the ID card proof enough that all documents are complete? Isn't a fake ID the same crime whether committed by a born or a naturalised citizen? Can it not be easily checked with the chip whether the holder is a Thai citizen?

 

Or do they think the several authorities involved in the multi-year process didn't check the documents thoroughly, so the land department has to check them again and point out any mistake that was made before the ID card was issued?

 

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

Why bother to read regulations when you can just make up your own and lord it over the peasants under your jurisdiction?

If the officer in question said that there is a ministerial request to double-check the ministry's work, I would ask her for a copy. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by onthemoon

[GarryP]

4 hours ago, Arkady said:

I had another "Thai mai phor" experience at a Land Office in a provincial capital in Isaan yesterday.  The head or second head of registrations didn't want to transfer land into a "foreigner's" name.   So she demanded originals of all documents and her eyes lit up when I said I didn't have the original of my naturalisation certificate, which like most people I keep safely at home. She tried to order me to register the land in my wife's name.  Eventually after much argument from myself demanding my rights as a Thai under the constitution and from my wife, she allowed the transfer after forcing me to sign a ridiculous note scrawled in her illegible hand writing which neither my wife nor my mother-in-law could read, let alone me.  I took a picture of it feeling like a Burmese being forced to sign something to stop a beating in a police station and the jist of it that she had to read out to us seemed to be that I had only presented a copy of the naturalisation certificates, having made the mistake of leaving the original at home in Bangkok, and that I promise that I am a bona fide naturalised Thai citizen and have not yet had my citizenship revoked.   I asked why she thought the latter clause was necessary and she said that we foreigners can easily have our citizenship revoked for doing something wrong.  I told her that according to the RG this was extremely rare and the last people to have their citizenship revoked successfully sued the Interior Minister in the Administrative Court and got their citizenship restored by order of the court (after 16 years which I didn't mention).  All the time she keep referring to me as a "tang dao" and I corrected her each time saying I was a Thai.

 

Later on I was joking with one of her subordinates who was very helpful and said that most of the forged ID cards were held by Chinese and suggested they would catch more people if they investigated those who came into the office with Chinese faces, rather than white faces, having noted that her boss seemed to have one of those herself.  I told the boss that the naturalisation certificate was actually the easiest of all the documents to forge, as it was just thrown together by the police in a few minutes while I waited.  I said it was odd that she should put so much faith in that, rather than a smart card ID which she could check online with DOPA who would surely tell her online or over the phone if the owner's citizenship had been cancelled.  She replied that there was an order from the Interior Ministry telling them to check all original documents, including naturalisation certificates. This may or may not be true but few land officers bother to check all original documents, except ID cards,  and I doubt very much they specified naturalisation certificate which she had probably never heard of until she saw the copy of mine.  Anyway she had just lied to the seller telling him that sale or redemption (khai faak) can only be registered if for 2 years or more when the Land Code only specifies that it should be no longer than 10 years.  This lie had already been accepted by the seller by the time I arrived, so I didn't have the opportunity to do battle with her over that but government official who lies about the main law under which they operate to people they believe are ignorant and can easily be cowed by officialdom has no credibility in my book. Why bother to read regulations when you can just make up your own and lord it over the peasants under your jurisdiction?

 

Finally when it was all done she turned friendly and engaged my wife in conversation about cosmetics taking her LINE ID to try and sell her some direct sales line she was selling.

 

I know one should keep one's cool in these situations but we have fought hard to get Thai citizenship and often been made to made many years because of corrupt officials deliberately dragging their heels.  So I will defend my rights as a Thai tooth and nail.  I resent being referred to as a foreigner by civil servants who are paid from my tax money just because of the colour of my skin. 

 

The whole thing was the more strange because I just completed a land purchase in a small office of the same province a month earlier and the head of registrations accepted all photocopies apart from my ID card without question and couldn't have been nicer.  He chatted with me outside when I bumped into him having a smoking break and offered some advice a road project alongside my land which the former owner had blocked as she didn't want to have 2 ngarn cut off her land.

 

This is only the second time anyone has asked me for a copy of my naturalisation certificate.  The other case was oddly at Bangkok Bank in order to change the nationality of my account to Thai which provides no advantage whatsoever apart from convenience to the holder. 

 

I wonder what they ask for from wives of Thai men who get citizenship under Section 9, since they don't get a naturalilsation certificate.  I guess they have to get hold of an original copy of the RG volume their name appeared in or maybe they are just told it is their husband's role to own land and have an account at Bangkok Bank.

 

Luckily it hasn't happened to me so far. My trip to the Land Office near where I live was quite uneventful.

 

I do not think I would have been able to hold my tongue if I were in your shoes. The problem would probably be made worse as I tend to get sarcastic in situations where dealing with people like that and sarcasm goes straight over their heads.

 

Having said that, it is bound to happen sooner or later. 

 

I got the same thing as you at Bangkok Bank.  

[yankee99]

whats "tang Dao" 

[skippybangkok]

whats "tang Dao" 

Across the stars


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[GarryP]

1 hour ago, yankee99 said:

whats "tang Dao" 

Alien. As in a foreigner.

[Neeranam]

On 19/04/2018 at 2:07 PM, qualtrough said:

Sorry, what is NIA again? When I google it I just get a National Innovation Office สำนักงานนวัตกรรมแห่งชาติ

Tip, talk to the guy at the gate about gardening, as he loves it and his wife is one of the panel.

[skyaslimit]

whats "tang Dao" 

You, myself and every body else on this forum.


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[Arkady]

7 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I am wondering why a naturalised citizen will have to bring any documents referring to the naturalisation process at all. Isn't the ID card proof enough that all documents are complete? Isn't a fake ID the same crime whether committed by a born or a naturalised citizen? Can it not be easily checked with the chip whether the holder is a Thai citizen?

 

Or do they think the several authorities involved in the multi-year process didn't check the documents thoroughly, so the land department has to check them again and point out any mistake that was made before the ID card was issued?

 

If the officer in question said that there is a ministerial request to double-check the ministry's work, I would ask her for a copy. 

 

By the time she said that  about the ministerial requirements she had already backed down and I realised she was going to allow the transfer if I signed the declaration.  Otherwise I might have asked her for that.

 

I have only heard of Chinese, Nepalese and other Indian Sub-Continent people having fake ID cards.  Actually they are not fake because they are genuinely issued by corrupt DO officials using the Day of the Jackal method, i.e. in the name of Thais who would have been the same age but are deceased.  There was a DO in Tak that issued several hundred ID cards to Nepalese using this method. I have never heard of anyone getting a fake ID card pretending to be naturalised.  It is far too difficult because DOs are paranoid about naturalised Thais and you have to get your name listed in the RG to convince them.  It is not conceivable that any DO officials would issue ID cards to people with fake RG announcements and naturalisation certificates.  

[skyaslimit]

 
By the time she said that  about the ministerial requirements she had already backed down and I realised she was going to allow the transfer if I signed the declaration.  Otherwise I might have asked her for that.
 
I have only heard of Chinese, Nepalese and other Indian Sub-Continent people having fake ID cards.  Actually they are not fake because they are genuinely issued by corrupt DO officials using the Day of the Jackal method, i.e. in the name of Thais who would have been the same age but are deceased.  There was a DO in Tak that issued several hundred ID cards to Nepalese using this method. I have never heard of anyone getting a fake ID card pretending to be naturalised.  It is far too difficult because DOs are paranoid about naturalised Thais and you have to get your name listed in the RG to convince them.  It is not conceivable that any DO officials would issue ID cards to people with fake RG announcements and naturalisation certificates.  

Correct, its far too difficult to issue a genuine ID with a foregin name starting as xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx


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[Arkady]

As far as corruption is concerned, I have come across a lot of demands for bribes at Land Offices but I don't think that was the case with the episode described above.  In another urban Land Office in an ajoining province, however, I was shaken down for 2 and 3 thousand baht bribes several times.  The first payment in most Land Offices, if you choose to do it, is to jump the queue to avoid having them deliberately spend all day doing a simple job or even making you come back the next day to finish it. Usually it ends there and you usually get what you pay for, if you pay. But in the other urban Isaan office, one of the officers started nit picking and demanding original documents, in that case my tabien baan and marriage certificate for the spousal consent signature but not the naturalisation certificate. I didn't notice anyone else being asked for originals of these and the latter request made me realise something was wrong because no one cares about the marriage certificate in this context and I had actually never even been asked for a copy of it before.  (In fact one office said the transfer could be done without bothering with the seller's spousal consent signature, if I didn't mind the risk that he might show up and try to negate the transfer in future.) She quickly made clear that her meter had to be refreshed and then no longer cared about the documents.  My experience with Isaan Land Offices is that the more urban the offices are the nastier and more greedy the staff are.  Conversely in rural offices, they are usually really nice and not greedy at all.

 

The sad thing for Thailand is that this inconsistency between different government offices that deal with the public doing the same thing in places is absolutely widespread, creating huge inefficiency and unfairness.  The agencies under the Interior Ministry tend to be the worst offenders with hundreds of little Hitlers in junior management positions making up their own laws and terrorising the poorly educated Thai public.

[asiaexpat]

12 hours ago, Arkady said:

As far as corruption is concerned, I have come across a lot of demands for bribes at Land Offices but I don't think that was the case with the episode described above.  In another urban Land Office in an ajoining province, however, I was shaken down for 2 and 3 thousand baht bribes several times.  The first payment in most Land Offices, if you choose to do it, is to jump the queue to avoid having them deliberately spend all day doing a simple job or even making you come back the next day to finish it. Usually it ends there and you usually get what you pay for, if you pay. But in the other urban Isaan office, one of the officers started nit picking and demanding original documents, in that case my tabien baan and marriage certificate for the spousal consent signature but not the naturalisation certificate. I didn't notice anyone else being asked for originals of these and the latter request made me realise something was wrong because no one cares about the marriage certificate in this context and I had actually never even been asked for a copy of it before.  (In fact one office said the transfer could be done without bothering with the seller's spousal consent signature, if I didn't mind the risk that he might show up and try to negate the transfer in future.) She quickly made clear that her meter had to be refreshed and then no longer cared about the documents.  My experience with Isaan Land Offices is that the more urban the offices are the nastier and more greedy the staff are.  Conversely in rural offices, they are usually really nice and not greedy at all.

 

The sad thing for Thailand is that this inconsistency between different government offices that deal with the public doing the same thing in places is absolutely widespread, creating huge inefficiency and unfairness.  The agencies under the Interior Ministry tend to be the worst offenders with hundreds of little Hitlers in junior management positions making up their own laws and terrorising the poorly educated Thai public.

Expedite charges (bribes) were required by a Bangkok Land Office during two land transfer my family made. Years ago it took 2000 baht but a recent transfer only cost 1000 baht. This practice seems to well established and continuous for many years. Any excuse to to convince the parties to pay the bribe can be used such as citizenship documents. 

[onthemoon]

12 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

By the time she said that  about the ministerial requirements she had already backed down and I realised she was going to allow the transfer if I signed the declaration.  Otherwise I might have asked her for that.

 

I have only heard of Chinese, Nepalese and other Indian Sub-Continent people having fake ID cards.  Actually they are not fake because they are genuinely issued by corrupt DO officials using the Day of the Jackal method, i.e. in the name of Thais who would have been the same age but are deceased.  There was a DO in Tak that issued several hundred ID cards to Nepalese using this method. I have never heard of anyone getting a fake ID card pretending to be naturalised.  It is far too difficult because DOs are paranoid about naturalised Thais and you have to get your name listed in the RG to convince them.  It is not conceivable that any DO officials would issue ID cards to people with fake RG announcements and naturalisation certificates.  

You said that you brought all the documents with you (in copy)  - I wouldn't have done that. Thai citizens need their Thai ID and the Tabien Baan, and those where the docs I would have brought. Did you expect them outright to doubt your Thai ID?

 

I find it rather insulting if they ask for more docs. A Thai is a Thai, born or naturalised. Otherwise a naturalised Thai is a second-class Thai. 

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, asiaexpat said:

Expedite charges (bribes) were required by a Bangkok Land Office during two land transfer my family made. Years ago it took 2000 baht but a recent transfer only cost 1000 baht. This practice seems to well established and continuous for many years. Any excuse to to convince the parties to pay the bribe can be used such as citizenship documents. 

Bkk land offices are always very busy which gives rise to more corruption as they can easily make you come back the next day to finish it, even if you arrived at 8.30 in the morning with all documents correct.  

[yankee99]

Had my NIA interview it was more intensive then SB. They had quite a few applicants but I was the only Caucasian. The interview lasted about 30 minutes and i didn't see any hiccups. 

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, onthemoon said:

You said that you brought all the documents with you (in copy)  - I wouldn't have done that. Thai citizens need their Thai ID and the Tabien Baan, and those where the docs I would have brought. Did you expect them outright to doubt your Thai ID?

 

I find it rather insulting if they ask for more docs. A Thai is a Thai, born or naturalised. Otherwise a naturalised Thai is a second-class Thai. 

 

Most government officials regard naturalised Thais as second class citizens, hence the way they refer to us as tang dao to our face which would be totally unacceptable behaviour for government officials towards naturalised citizens of Asian or other non-white origin in the West.  In my case at the Land Office they also did their best to imply that my citizenship was only temporary by emphasising the possibility of it being revoked for any wrongdoing.  Anyway we have to put this unconstitutional, discriminatory behaviour by racist jerks aside.  Being a naturalised citizen is still a lot better than being a PR or on NON-B or NON-O visa.

 

I did what you suggested for my first land transfer as a Thai, which was in Bangkok, but there was no way I was going to get it done without a copy of the naturalisation certificate,  They weren't too sticky about it, as they let someone at my home fax a copy of it to their fax number, but they were not going to do the transfer without it and it wasn't a question of paying bribes to get it done. I know some people have reported here that it wasn't requested but I have been asked for a copy of it in 5 different land offices and for the original in the one mentioned above. 

 

One interesting thing is that I was able to effect one transfer in a small Isaan land office remotely using a power of attorney and only copies of all documents including ID card.  Mrs Arkady also didn't show up and also signed the spousal consent by power of attorney.   The only thing they complained about was that the power of attorney mentioned a Chanote transfer, whereas it was actually a green Nor Sor 3 Kor deed.  That held things up for a couple of days until we could get new PoAs up there.

So there is no rhyme or reason to any of this.

[skippybangkok]

 
In my case at the Land Office they also did their best to imply that my citizenship was only temporary by emphasising the possibility of it being revoked for any wrongdoing.

Glad they never said that to my face, would answer “ that could never happen unless I worked for the land department “


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[GarryP]

21 minutes ago, skippybangkok said:

 

Glad they never said that to my face, would answer “ that could never happen unless I worked for the land department “


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They would not understand your comment. It would fly straight over their heads. 

[Tilacme]

28 minutes ago, skippybangkok said:

 

Glad they never said that to my face, would answer “ that could never happen unless I worked for the land department “


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I hear what you say, but i know what you mean

[skippybangkok]

They would not understand your comment. It would fly straight over their heads. 

If in Thai - I think they will get it. Doubt it would help speed the process


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[Johnniey]

On 21/04/2018 at 9:27 PM, Arkady said:

The agencies under the Interior Ministry tend to be the worst offenders with hundreds of little Hitlers in junior management positions making up their own laws and terrorising the poorly educated Thai public.

Great accurate description.

[Neeranam]

17 hours ago, yankee99 said:

Had my NIA interview it was more intensive then SB. They had quite a few applicants but I was the only Caucasian. The interview lasted about 30 minutes and i didn't see any hiccups. 

Well done. They told me it takes about a month for them to complete everything. 

[qualtrough]

On 4/22/2018 at 1:47 PM, yankee99 said:

Had my NIA interview it was more intensive then SB. They had quite a few applicants but I was the only Caucasian. The interview lasted about 30 minutes and i didn't see any hiccups. 

Congratulations! 

 

Would you mind sharing some of things they asked you? Also, how long after your SB interview was this?

[yankee99]

Sb branch to NIA was right at 40 days but we did have a holiday.

 

I think the questions were standard  (where and when did you meet, what kind of work do you do, how much was the rent in my bkk condo address, also they were interested in how much profit my wifes company made all years combined.  A lot of other simple questions but a lot that i didnt know or remember.   The important thing is they want all original documents!! but they didnt keep any of them.

 

My interview was 80% english my wifes interviewer said i need to speak more thai because i would be singing.  I am not singing but no need to tell them they are mis informed

[Johnniey]

8 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

My interview was 80% english

Wow, that's surprising.

[qualtrough]

3 hours ago, yankee99 said:

Sb branch to NIA was right at 40 days but we did have a holiday.

 

I think the questions were standard  (where and when did you meet, what kind of work do you do, how much was the rent in my bkk condo address, also they were interested in how much profit my wifes company made all years combined.  A lot of other simple questions but a lot that i didnt know or remember.   The important thing is they want all original documents!! but they didnt keep any of them.

 

My interview was 80% english my wifes interviewer said i need to speak more thai because i would be singing.  I am not singing but no need to tell them they are mis informed

Thank you. The documents were the originals of the ones you already submitted to the SB during the application process? What's the next step? I forget!

[Arkady]

 

2 hours ago, qualtrough said:

Thank you. The documents were the originals of the ones you already submitted to the SB during the application process? What's the next step? I forget!

I think the OP said the next step was:

 

Waited

 

Waited

 

Waited

[yankee99]

4 hours ago, qualtrough said:

Thank you. The documents were the originals of the ones you already submitted to the SB during the application process? What's the next step? I forget!

They were original but some like my divorce papers were never submitted to SB. They gave my wife a list before we went there. 

 

Next step is for SB to send the file to moi. My SB contact said 3-4 months. 

[GarryP]

When can I vote? That is, how long after gaining citizenship do I qualify to vote in national elections?

[yankee99]

27 minutes ago, GarryP said:

When can I vote? That is, how long after gaining citizenship do I qualify to vote in national elections?

Yes thats the way i understood it