Australian expat self funded retirees - non-resident tax laws & shares etc. How to structure investments?

[Leaver]

1 minute ago, Will27 said:

You don't get flagged for an audit for staying outside of Australia for more than 183 days.

 

2 minutes ago, Will27 said:

You may get flagged for being out of the country for long periods of time.

 

Would a "long period of time" be 183 days?

 

2 minutes ago, Will27 said:

you seem to be obsessed with the 183 day rule.

 

I think you will find the tax department is more obsessed than I am.  ????

 

3 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I'm not sure if you know the difference between an amendment by the ATO and an audit.

 

Does it matter?  One is either deemed to be a resident, or non resident for taxation purposes.  

 

4 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I can tell you that the ATO don't waste time and resources auditing people on low incomes unless they're a target.

 

I disagree.  They are the easiest, have the least resources to fight, and often pay.  Do you disagree?

 

5 minutes ago, Will27 said:

The vast majority or expats in Thailand would be considered non-residents but the ATO doesn't want to be seen as targeting pensioners.

 

How many Australian expats in Thailand are actually on an aged pension?  Most are self sufficient, which means income generating assets in their home country, that means paying tax. 

 

Can you 100% assure the OP they will NEVER hear from the tax department, whilst living happily in Thailand on Australian generated income?  I didn't think so.        

[Leaver]

8 minutes ago, Will27 said:

It's been mentioned before, that is not correct.

There are other factors taken into account for residency purposes.

 

Yes, a domicile that one is not actually domiciled in.  

 

So, one has a property in Australia that they declare is their domicile, but they never actually live in it. 

 

Firstly, that's a waste, secondly, how long do you think that will fly?  

[Will27]

11 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

 

Would a "long period of time" be 183 days?

 

 

I think you will find the tax department is more obsessed than I am.  ????

 

 

Does it matter?  One is either deemed to be a resident, or non resident for taxation purposes.  

 

 

I disagree.  They are the easiest, have the least resources to fight, and often pay.  Do you disagree?

 

 

How many Australian expats in Thailand are actually on an aged pension?  Most are self sufficient, which means income generating assets in their home country, that means paying tax. 

 

Can you 100% assure the OP they will NEVER hear from the tax department, whilst living happily in Thailand on Australian generated income?  I didn't think so.        

By asking me "Does it matter" between an audit and an amendment tells me you don't really know what you're talking about TBH.

 

Of course I cannot say 100% that people won't hear from the ATO.

That's just silly and I never said I could.

Just like you cannot say people will hear from them.

 

I've already said several times that the ATO don't generally target low income earners. There are some exceptions which I've previously mentioned.

[Leaver]

38 minutes ago, Will27 said:

By asking me "Does it matter" between an audit and an amendment tells me you don't really know what you're talking about TBH.

 

Would one need the stress of either?

 

39 minutes ago, Will27 said:

Of course I cannot say 100% that people won't hear from the ATO.

 

Ok, so what would your advice be for a 100% solution?  I have given mine.

 

40 minutes ago, Will27 said:

That's just silly and I never said I could.

 

You actually didn't say much, TBH.  

 

You threw it to chance.  It's a little bit like the "my girl is different" argument.  

 

Do you actually have a constructive tax structure for the OP, other than the tax department don't care about low income earners?

 

40 minutes ago, Will27 said:

I've already said several times that the ATO don't generally target low income earners.

 

Yes, but you don't 100% guarantee they don't, so your reassurance is not much use, is it?

 

41 minutes ago, Will27 said:

There are some exceptions which I've previously mentioned.

 

I'm sure governments around the world re working, as we speak, to add more and more "exceptions" that they can scoop up in their net.  It's not difficult, a computer does it.

[Will27]

6 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Would one need the stress of either?

 

 

Ok, so what would your advice be for a 100% solution?  I have given mine.

 

 

You actually didn't say much, TBH.  

 

You threw it to chance.  It's a little bit like the "my girl is different" argument.  

 

Do you actually have a constructive tax structure for the OP, other than the tax department don't care about low income earners?

 

 

Yes, but you don't 100% guarantee they don't, so your reassurance is not much use, is it?

 

 

I'm sure governments around the world re working, as we speak, to add more and more "exceptions" that they can scoop up in their net.  It's not difficult, a computer does it.

I can see (again), in the first point, that when you don't have an answer, you just avoid giving one and ask another irrelevant question.

 

Really?

Neither me or yourself can give a 100% solution to people for their taxation issues.

It's just a really naive question.

 

The residency issue has been done to death on this subforum if you care to check.

I was just correcting your mistakes.

 

You're the one who is telling people they can expect a letter from the ATO.

I'm not that silly to be saying stuff like that.

 

To me, you sound like someone who just pores over the ATO website and all of a sudden is an expert.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to play ping pong all day with you.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[cmarshall]

12 hours ago, Lacessit said:

Don't disagree with that; however, I'd suggest the OP does not want to get burnt in Singapore as well as Oz.

Rule 1 of investing is don't invest in anything you don't understand, presumably you have a better knowledge of Singapore investments than the OP does.

 

There is no need to invest in Singapore at all.  Just have the assets custodied in Singapore with an international brokerage house, for example, and then invest wherever you like.

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, cmarshall said:

 

There is no need to invest in Singapore at all.  Just have the assets custodied in Singapore with an international brokerage house, for example, and then invest wherever you like.

Good point, I was not aware of that.

Any brokerage houses you could recommend?

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

Good point, I was not aware of that.

Any brokerage houses you could recommend?

 

I don't.  Probably there are international brokerage firms with offices in Singapore.

[rhodie]

15 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

I don't wish to alarm you, but it would not be surprising if either you, or your accountant, receive a letter from your tax department in the future. 

 

It will most probably be a "please explain" letter as to why you are out of the country, consistently, for more than 6 months of the year.  Such a letter would most likely be automatically generated by the tax computer system, based on information communicated by the immigration computer system.  I would go as far as to say, it's not if, just when.  

 

Australia is not the only government chasing every tax dollar they can get.   You may or may not be able to pass the domicile test.  You, and your accountant, should be prepared, and possibly have a Plan B in place.  

 

"I don't wish to alarm you, but it would not be surprising if either you, or your accountant, receive a letter from your tax department in the future. "

 

Have you any idea how long before this happens? 

[gearbox]

4 hours ago, Will27 said:

I can see (again), in the first point, that when you don't have an answer, you just avoid giving one and ask another irrelevant question.

 

Really?

Neither me or yourself can give a 100% solution to people for their taxation issues.

It's just a really naive question.

 

The residency issue has been done to death on this subforum if you care to check.

I was just correcting your mistakes.

 

You're the one who is telling people they can expect a letter from the ATO.

I'm not that silly to be saying stuff like that.

 

To me, you sound like someone who just pores over the ATO website and all of a sudden is an expert.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to play ping pong all day with you.

We can agree to disagree.

 

 

You can get a nearly 100% solution by requesting a private ruling from ATO. But frankly most of the Aussies living here won't pass. Having a wife, kids, cars, property....no way.  I can pack my stuff in less than an hour and be outta here the same day....pre-covid anyway. In the last 16 months I spent only 5 months in Thailand, no way ATO can tell me my abode is here.

 

However the Singapore solution looks like a good way to diversify anyway.  The Aussie dollar is a volatile currency, and the other name for it is "The China proxy".  Nobody can predict if the covid lows of 18.5 bahts won't be seen again.  As the exchange rate is quite good at the moment I started moving slowly assets out of the country to assets denominated in other currencies. I can lose way more from the Aussie going down than the ATO making me non-resident.

 

 

[aussienam]

5 hours ago, cmarshall said:

 

There is no need to invest in Singapore at all.  Just have the assets custodied in Singapore with an international brokerage house, for example, and then invest wherever you like.

Thanks cmarshall, 

 

To have the assets custodied in Singapore with an international brokerage house:  I am assuming you are referring to buying shares through a broker in Singapore?  

Buying Australian shares for example via a broker in Singapore, of course I would not be liable to Capital Gains Tax in Australia, but I would not be entitled to the Franking credits. 

 

I would be interested in expats who have share and managed fund portfolios via Singapore brokers and the types of dividends they get.  I have used online brokerage accounts here in Australia such as Bell Direct, NAB Trade and Self Wealth platforms with low brokerage fees.  Are there similar platforms in Singapore that foreigners can use too?  And managed funds I would like to hear from any experience of other expats using funds in Singapore and their performance (I would be looking at a ratio of around 70:30 income stocks vs growth stocks). 

 

Also, the Singapore Dollar, I see over the last 20 years has fluctuated between around 79 cents to 1AUD to being on par with it and a couple of short term periods above the AUD.  Currently not far from being on par.  

 

If I were to shift my money over to Singapore, what are the steps?  Would I need to register a company name in Singapore when opening a HSBC account?  Investing in Singapore are there any other rules?  How long does the whole process take and how much?  Would I be looking at spending a few weeks there to set it all up or can I do most of it online?  

[cmarshall]

6 minutes ago, aussienam said:

Thanks cmarshall, 

 

To have the assets custodied in Singapore with an international brokerage house:  I am assuming you are referring to buying shares through a broker in Singapore?  

Buying Australian shares for example via a broker in Singapore, of course I would not be liable to Capital Gains Tax in Australia, but I would not be entitled to the Franking credits. 

 

I would be interested in expats who have share and managed fund portfolios via Singapore brokers and the types of dividends they get.  I have used online brokerage accounts here in Australia such as Bell Direct, NAB Trade and Self Wealth platforms with low brokerage fees.  Are there similar platforms in Singapore that foreigners can use too?  And managed funds I would like to hear from any experience of other expats using funds in Singapore and their performance (I would be looking at a ratio of around 70:30 income stocks vs growth stocks). 

 

Also, the Singapore Dollar, I see over the last 20 years has fluctuated between around 79 cents to 1AUD to being on par with it and a couple of short term periods above the AUD.  Currently not far from being on par.  

 

If I were to shift my money over to Singapore, what are the steps?  Would I need to register a company name in Singapore when opening a HSBC account?  Investing in Singapore are there any other rules?  How long does the whole process take and how much?  Would I be looking at spending a few weeks there to set it all up or can I do most of it online?  

 

Um, no.  You have your shares and cash custodied in Singapore, but opening an account with a brokerage in Singapore and then transferring your cash and shares from your brokerage account in Australia to your new brokerage account in Singapore.  No buying or selling need have occurred at this point.  Now, your whole portfolio is custodied in Singapore with the exact same stock positions that you owned in Australia.

 

I have only a vague conception of Australian franking credits, but apparently they apply only to dividends paid by Australian-based companies.  If you sold off all your Australian stock once you opened your brokerage account in Singapore and bought some other stock, wouldn't you avoid the whole franking credit business?  

 

I myself have never opened any account outside the US, since Americans are taxed on our world-wide income and offshore accounts therefore don't save us any taxes.  

 

You don't need to set up a company to open a brokerage account in Singapore.  Just search out a few names of international brokerages with offices in Singapore and ring them up.  

 

You're right that you will face exchange rate risk, but you already face that by living in Thailand, since your liabilities are in Thai baht while your assets are in Australian dollars.  If you buy shares in a non-Australian market you do increase the complexity of your exchange rate risk.  Once we expat most things become more complex, although not necessarily worse for us.

 

 

[gearbox]

35 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

Um, no.  You have your shares and cash custodied in Singapore, but opening an account with a brokerage in Singapore and then transferring your cash and shares from your brokerage account in Australia to your new brokerage account in Singapore.  No buying or selling need have occurred at this point.  Now, your whole portfolio is custodied in Singapore with the exact same stock positions that you owned in Australia.

 

I have only a vague conception of Australian franking credits, but apparently they apply only to dividends paid by Australian-based companies.  If you sold off all your Australian stock once you opened your brokerage account in Singapore and bought some other stock, wouldn't you avoid the whole franking credit business?  

 

I myself have never opened any account outside the US, since Americans are taxed on our world-wide income and offshore accounts therefore don't save us any taxes.  

 

You don't need to set up a company to open a brokerage account in Singapore.  Just search out a few names of international brokerages with offices in Singapore and ring them up.  

 

You're right that you will face exchange rate risk, but you already face that by living in Thailand, since your liabilities are in Thai baht while your assets are in Australian dollars.  If you buy shares in a non-Australian market you do increase the complexity of your exchange rate risk.  Once we expat most things become more complex, although not necessarily worse for us.

 

 

I don't know how the system to buy equities in Singapore works, but in Australia I don't keep any money with a brokerage. The money are sitting in my bank account and transferred to the brokerage when equities are bought.

 

Is it possible to structure it the same way in Singapore? I don't think brokerages are governed by the same laws as banks, I prefer to keep any cash in reputable banks.

 

Can anyone open a bank account in Singapore without work permit or residency?

[cmarshall]

32 minutes ago, gearbox said:

I don't know how the system to buy equities in Singapore works, but in Australia I don't keep any money with a brokerage. The money are sitting in my bank account and transferred to the brokerage when equities are bought.

 

Is it possible to structure it the same way in Singapore? I don't think brokerages are governed by the same laws as banks, I prefer to keep any cash in reputable banks.

 

Can anyone open a bank account in Singapore without work permit or residency?

 

Google is your friend.

 

https://fifthperson.com/how-to-open-a-brokerage-account-in-singapore/

[Leaver]

10 hours ago, Will27 said:

I can see (again), in the first point, that when you don't have an answer, you just avoid giving one and ask another irrelevant question.

 

Rubbish.

 

10 hours ago, Will27 said:

Neither me or yourself can give a 100% solution to people for their taxation issues.

 

Still waiting for yours, other than, "don't worry, you are a low income earner."  

 

10 hours ago, Will27 said:

You're the one who is telling people they can expect a letter from the ATO.

I'm not that silly to be saying stuff like that.

 

I am telling people to be prepared, and have a Plan B.  

 

Silly or not, what advice have you actually got for the OP?

 

10 hours ago, Will27 said:

To me, you sound like someone who just pores over the ATO website and all of a sudden is an expert.

 

I'm not Australian, but did live and work in Australia for a period of time, albeit, some years ago.  I have some experience, considering I did maintain assets in Australia, until selling up, for the very reasons mentioned in this thread. 

 

10 hours ago, Will27 said:

We can agree to disagree.

 

Yes, it's nothing personal.

 

However, what is your actual advice?   You haven't put forward a strategy to disagree with, other than, "don't worry, they are not looking for low income earner."    

[Leaver]

10 hours ago, cmarshall said:

 

There is no need to invest in Singapore at all.  Just have the assets custodied in Singapore with an international brokerage house, for example, and then invest wherever you like.

 

Exactly.  I thought this was a given.  

[cmarshall]

34 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

Exactly.  I thought this was a given.  

 

So, did I.

[Leaver]

7 hours ago, rhodie said:

 

"I don't wish to alarm you, but it would not be surprising if either you, or your accountant, receive a letter from your tax department in the future. "

 

Have you any idea how long before this happens? 

 

No.  How fast does data flow, and letters get printed and posted?  

 

I would say this would be on hold, due to covid, but if the OP is living / retired in Thailand, it's fair to say, it's not if, just when.   

[aussienam]

6 hours ago, cmarshall said:

 

Um, no.  You have your shares and cash custodied in Singapore, but opening an account with a brokerage in Singapore and then transferring your cash and shares from your brokerage account in Australia to your new brokerage account in Singapore.  No buying or selling need have occurred at this point.  Now, your whole portfolio is custodied in Singapore with the exact same stock positions that you owned in Australia.

 

 

Are you explaining here that I can transfer my share holdings to a Singapore broker from an Australian broker?  I have done this between brokers in Australia before but did not know this was something that could also be done internationally.  

 

Also, if I transferred my shares to Singapore, the dividend payments from those shares I presume would then need to be transferred and credited to a Singapore bank account.  The cash from dividends would mostly be transferred via a FOREX company to a local bank account such as a Thai bank to supplement my cost of living expenses. 

 

And it seems for foreigners, the bank used most is HSBC.  And can opening a bank account in Singapore be done online?  I thought I read somewhere you had to be in person? 

 

I then assume I would need to employ an accountant each year in Singapore to carry out tax returns.  And wonder the costs of that? (hopefully not expensive).  I would also need to complete a tax return in Australia (asset - investment property still being held there).  Not sure if there are taxation agreements between Australia and Singapore? 

 

The vast bulk of my share investments are through managed funds, which are Australian based companies. I would have to liquidate them and transfer funds to a Singapore bank there. 

 

I would then need to have sourced managed funds that I can invest in that have similar fees and performance to those I have here now in Australia and that I can trust.

 

It would be very helpful to get in touch with someone who has done all of this and knows any pitfalls and Singapore tax laws to look out for.  

 

[cmarshall]

11 hours ago, aussienam said:

Are you explaining here that I can transfer my share holdings to a Singapore broker from an Australian broker?  I have done this between brokers in Australia before but did not know this was something that could also be done internationally.  

 

Also, if I transferred my shares to Singapore, the dividend payments from those shares I presume would then need to be transferred and credited to a Singapore bank account.  The cash from dividends would mostly be transferred via a FOREX company to a local bank account such as a Thai bank to supplement my cost of living expenses. 

 

And it seems for foreigners, the bank used most is HSBC.  And can opening a bank account in Singapore be done online?  I thought I read somewhere you had to be in person? 

 

I then assume I would need to employ an accountant each year in Singapore to carry out tax returns.  And wonder the costs of that? (hopefully not expensive).  I would also need to complete a tax return in Australia (asset - investment property still being held there).  Not sure if there are taxation agreements between Australia and Singapore? 

 

The vast bulk of my share investments are through managed funds, which are Australian based companies. I would have to liquidate them and transfer funds to a Singapore bank there. 

 

I would then need to have sourced managed funds that I can invest in that have similar fees and performance to those I have here now in Australia and that I can trust.

 

It would be very helpful to get in touch with someone who has done all of this and knows any pitfalls and Singapore tax laws to look out for.  

 

 

I don't know the specifics of having a brokerage account in Singapore, but I doubt that any of the steps you mention are necessary.  I doubt that you need a Singaporean bank account at all.  The brokerage handles all that.  If Singapore taxes your dividends, then they will just take a percentage of each dividend you receive.  At least that is how it would work if you opened an international account at Charles Schwab in the US, which you could also do if you didn't like Singapore for some reason.  No bank, no account, no US tax return.  I think the US govt takes 15% of the dividends with no muss, no fuss.  Your holdings would be in US dollars, of course, which as you have recognized complicates your exchange rate risk.

 

https://international.schwab.com/

 

Schwab is likely to be lower cost than HSBC.

 

I would think that you could transfer your share holdings to an international broker as long as they trade on the Australian market.  But you have to peruse the websites of some international brokers and make some calls.

[wordchild]

1) easy to transfer assets internationally between brokers  (in most cases). i have certainly done it from UK to Singapore. Just open the account instruct the new broker to do it and they will handle everything.

2)i would agree Singapore is an excellent home for financial assets. If you are not resident in Singapore there is no need to file a tax return or pay an accountant there.

3)the Singapore bank or broker you use will handle your dividend receipts, no need to convert to Sing dollars. You could have a linked multi currency account and hold cash in OZ dollars if you wish.

4)I am not Australian but i do own some OZ stocks in my Sing account. When a company pays a divi that is 100% franked , there is no withholding tax levied ie you receive 100% of the dividend.   if the dividend is not franked or partially franked then, if your account is with a Sing bank, the withholding tax is 15%, ie you you get 85% of your dividend. 

5)no need to limit yourself to OZ stocks 

[wordchild]

it is not the case that you need to have your assets in the country where you live, nearly always, as an expat its better to hold your assets in a third country, ie not in your country of origin and not in the country where you currently live. For most people (US excepted) there can be considerable advantages in structuring your assets this way.

I certainly wouldn't bring all your assets into Thailand other than via an offshore account. eg a number of Thai brokers operate offshore investment accounts for expats and wealthy Thais.

Asia Plus operate such an account , i have used them myself and rate them highly.

With this type of account your assets are held outside Thailand by a  Global Custodian (JP Morgan) ,  via Asia Plus stockbrokers you can then invest in most of the worlds major markets including Australia. Because the funds never actually come into Thailand you can transfer money anywhere in the world when you need too without issue or hassle. They can also hold cash eg from dividends in most of the major currencies. Also you might find it easier to open such an account with one of the Thai brokers as it has got increasingly difficult (unless assets are significant)  to open offshore accounts with the major Singapore banks.

another couple of thoughts;

1) if you prefer to hold OZ managed funds then consider LIC,s these are investment funds quoted on the OZ stock market. Most of them are conservatively run and low cost and offer a pretty good dividend yield. They offer a spread of the major OZ companies. eg Argo is the biggest and most well known. You could invest in these from anywhere in the world.

2) The 2 big OZ miners BHP and Rio both also trade on the London market and are currently significantly cheaper to buy there rather than in OZ, eg BHP shares in London are around 18% cheaper than the OZ version for basically the same company. 

3)if you really want to keep your personal involvement to an absolute minimum and just have your investments managed in a sensible way then have a look at the Vanguard range of low cost funds.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by wordchild

[aussienam]

On 5/3/2021 at 7:19 AM, wordchild said:

1) easy to transfer assets internationally between brokers  (in most cases). i have certainly done it from UK to Singapore. Just open the account instruct the new broker to do it and they will handle everything.

2)i would agree Singapore is an excellent home for financial assets. If you are not resident in Singapore there is no need to file a tax return or pay an accountant there.

3)the Singapore bank or broker you use will handle your dividend receipts, no need to convert to Sing dollars. You could have a linked multi currency account and hold cash in OZ dollars if you wish.

4)I am not Australian but i do own some OZ stocks in my Sing account. When a company pays a divi that is 100% franked , there is no withholding tax levied ie you receive 100% of the dividend.   if the dividend is not franked or partially franked then, if your account is with a Sing bank, the withholding tax is 15%, ie you you get 85% of your dividend. 

5)no need to limit yourself to OZ stocks 

What is the Singapore broker account you use?  

 

I noticed from the link to the 'Fifth Person' website that one person posted a question regarding opening a Singapore brokerage account as a foreigner from another country.  He was given a suggestion to try 'Saxo' brokers. 

I'll contact them and if suitable am hoping they can transfer my shares over.  

 

It seems you can only use a nominee (custodian) account as opposed to a central depositary account (CDP), which I read as meaning the shares are technically not in your name so you rely on the brokerage firm not going bankrupt.  

 

Opening a bank account as a foreigner from overseas is now extremely difficult, mostly impossible for most people like me.  So I would only be able to have a nominee brokerage account as a CDP account needs a linked bank account.  

 

 

[aussienam]

On 5/3/2021 at 9:29 AM, wordchild said:

it is not the case that you need to have your assets in the country where you live, nearly always, as an expat its better to hold your assets in a third country, ie not in your country of origin and not in the country where you currently live. For most people (US excepted) there can be considerable advantages in structuring your assets this way.

I certainly wouldn't bring all your assets into Thailand other than via an offshore account. eg a number of Thai brokers operate offshore investment accounts for expats and wealthy Thais.

Asia Plus operate such an account , i have used them myself and rate them highly.

With this type of account your assets are held outside Thailand by a  Global Custodian (JP Morgan) ,  via Asia Plus stockbrokers you can then invest in most of the worlds major markets including Australia. Because the funds never actually come into Thailand you can transfer money anywhere in the world when you need too without issue or hassle. They can also hold cash eg from dividends in most of the major currencies. Also you might find it easier to open such an account with one of the Thai brokers as it has got increasingly difficult (unless assets are significant)  to open offshore accounts with the major Singapore banks.

another couple of thoughts;

1) if you prefer to hold OZ managed funds then consider LIC,s these are investment funds quoted on the OZ stock market. Most of them are conservatively run and low cost and offer a pretty good dividend yield. They offer a spread of the major OZ companies. eg Argo is the biggest and most well known. You could invest in these from anywhere in the world.

2) The 2 big OZ miners BHP and Rio both also trade on the London market and are currently significantly cheaper to buy there rather than in OZ, eg BHP shares in London are around 18% cheaper than the OZ version for basically the same company. 

3)if you really want to keep your personal involvement to an absolute minimum and just have your investments managed in a sensible way then have a look at the Vanguard range of low cost funds.

 

As Asia Plus has offices in Thailand and would entail setting up an account with them, would that then mean taxes would be paid to Thai government? 

 

You mentioned offshore, where is AsiaPlus based?

 

I know you mentioned a global custodian, but wondering the jurisdiction and where my money/shares would be? 

 

Is AsiaPlus a better option than the Singapore international brokerage one?  

 

Thanks. 

[wordchild]

16 hours ago, aussienam said:

As Asia Plus has offices in Thailand and would entail setting up an account with them, would that then mean taxes would be paid to Thai government? 

 

You mentioned offshore, where is AsiaPlus based?

 

I know you mentioned a global custodian, but wondering the jurisdiction and where my money/shares would be? 

 

Is AsiaPlus a better option than the Singapore international brokerage one?  

 

Thanks. 

1) Asia plus is a Thai broker, there is information about their offshore account on their website. I believe other Thai brokers also offer similar accounts.

2)if you use their offshore brokerage account assets are held outside Thailand via a Global Custodian. It was JP Morgan when i last used them. Normally a Global Custodian will hold your assets in the country where they are registered/listed ie in Australia for OZ shares UK for UK shares etc 

3) Saxo Singapore offer a pretty good service as far as i am aware, they would be lower cost than Asia Plus. I have heard positive comments from people who have used them.

[wordchild]

18 hours ago, aussienam said:

As Asia Plus has offices in Thailand and would entail setting up an account with them, would that then mean taxes would be paid to Thai government? 

 

You mentioned offshore, where is AsiaPlus based?

 

I know you mentioned a global custodian, but wondering the jurisdiction and where my money/shares would be? 

 

Is AsiaPlus a better option than the Singapore international brokerage one?  

 

Thanks. 

your assets through Asia Plus would be held in an offshore account, so no need to report or pay tax in Thailand as long as the money stays outside Thailand.

However if you transfer funds from the account into Thailand then you need to ensure that the funds were earned in the prior tax year eg the easiest way to do this is only bring funds into Thailand during the first few days of January each year.

[aussienam]

On 5/2/2021 at 1:24 PM, gearbox said:

I don't know how the system to buy equities in Singapore works, but in Australia I don't keep any money with a brokerage. The money are sitting in my bank account and transferred to the brokerage when equities are bought.

 

Is it possible to structure it the same way in Singapore? I don't think brokerages are governed by the same laws as banks, I prefer to keep any cash in reputable banks.

 

Can anyone open a bank account in Singapore without work permit or residency?

I have ascertained from reading a few sites relating to this.  You can only open a brokerage account and transfer funds into that account, held by a nominee.  Shares are not technically in your name.

 

To open a bank account in Singapore from overseas is near impossible for most and only ultra wealthy need apply. To open a bank account you would need to travel to Singapore and also have a company name, so setting that up as well, meaning accounts and tax returns as well.  

 

Opening an international brokerage account, I am still searching.  Fees and rates vary as well. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by aussienam

[aussienam]

5 hours ago, wordchild said:

your assets through Asia Plus would be held in an offshore account, so no need to report or pay tax in Thailand as long as the money stays outside Thailand.

However if you transfer funds from the account into Thailand then you need to ensure that the funds were earned in the prior tax year eg the easiest way to do this is only bring funds into Thailand during the first few days of January each year.

I never knew transferring funds into a Thai account attracted tax?  Or does it have something to do with it coming from a brokerage account?  I have always just transferred amounts from my bank in Oz via a FOREX ('Wise') as needed. 

[aussienam]

7 hours ago, wordchild said:

3) Saxo Singapore offer a pretty good service as far as i am aware, they would be lower cost than Asia Plus. I have heard positive comments from people who have used them.

I have started the application with Saxo for the moment.  5-7 days to process.  Still waiting from Asia Plus. 

 

I haven't yet found any products to invest similar to the managed funds I have (Lincoln Indicators in Oz are excellent but a shame the non-resident taxes may mean I liquidate everything, as their performance has been very good for years with top reputation). I cannot transfer the shares out of that fund as they are units held. 

 

Not sure if a foreign investor can invest into managed funds external to an international broker in Singapore? I suppose a linked bank account would be needed anyway in that respect for dividend/distributions which disqualifies 99% of foreigners living outside Singapore (unless they allowed transfers of payments to a foreign bank/your international brokerage account or created a linked brokerage account?).  

 

Saxo charge 40AUD per trade on the ASX.  But I am a long term holder, not frequent trader.  So not a terrible issue.  

 

**********

 

* Wanting  a reliable and reputable managed fund structure is making me hesitate on liquidating all my managed funds here and exposing to Singapore brokers/fund managers.  I really haven't a clue yet on what's available there that has good track record.  

 

If I hang onto my funds,  I face the upfront Capital Gains Tax when deemed non-resident (thankfully charge that CGT that first time non-resident status at the resident rate) which about ⅓ would get 50% discount and capital losses would offset the rest. 

 

But I would cop non-resident taxes thereafter on distributions and no franking credits. So maybe lean more towards growth shares instead of income shares.  Still need an income, unless I drew down on unit holdings if a good year.  

 

************

 

[Old Croc]

I'm unsure why Leaver, who is not Australian, has such strong opinions and warnings about ATO audit attacks on low income retirees, but his dire predictions are not backed up by examples.

There are a myriad of Australian pensioners, in various categories, living in Thailand and I have not heard of a single one being monstered by the tax office. They would be screaming on these pages if it were the case.

I have not been back to Australia for 10 years and no longer have reason to ever return. My income category is that of retired Australian Government Employee on a CSS pension. I also have other tax free investments. I have no contact with CL at all. In my 70s, I've never applied for a partial aged pension.

As I cannot obtain residency in this country, I consider Australia to be my permanent home even though it would require exceptional circumstances for me to return there.

As someone with long government service at a fairly high level, and who has literally shed blood for the country, I greatly resent the idea that my hard earned pension should be taxed at the same rate as a fruit picking backpacker.

In previous discussions here on this subject several CSS pensioners related that they have talked to ATO and been given oral rulings that they should continue to state they are resident for tax purposes. There are others who have bitten the bullet and pay the higher tax.

I cannot remove the balance of my superannuation from the fund to invest elsewhere (I did once enquire) and continue to pay a small tax on my pension.

ATO provide an e-tax form each year with my CSS income and bank interest pre-filled, and I have no expectations nor fears that an audit is likely.