Pattaya A Dead or Dying City?

[Henryford]

Despite the dead/dying image it's surprising how much development is still going on. Driving around town i see many new condos being finished off. Look at that monster on Jomtien beach near the Night Market. Also Tree Town has many new bars including that posh one with the swimming pool. So someone must think things will get better soon.

[DerbyDan]

18 hours ago, jacko45k said:

My Mrs was in her hammock until she learned the AC was on.... as to Durian, more likely to be me eating it, Mrs hates it, I am rather partial.

Sort of on topic, to be whittling on about nothing as we are, really expresses life in Pattaya now... there isn't really any.  

 

Your comment reads as slightly limp.

[newnative]

11 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

They were not being filled. My five star GM friend has pointed out that Thailand has had one of the lowest occupancy rates of any of the worldwide Amari properties, over the past five years. We all assume much market research goes into the development of those properties. I think that is often not the case here. Vacancy is very high in alot of office and condo buildings now. As well as alot of malls. Over development is not necessarily a sign of a healthy economy. 

 

Another friend of mine is dating a woman who is a senior exec with one of Thailand's largest developers. They are shutting down 120 projects next month. That represents 100% of their projects nationwide. Some of it is Covid related. Some of it is just insane, overly optimistic projections. 

 

Build it, and they will come. Not necessarily. 

    Maybe ask your 5 star GM friend why Amari would build not one but two additions to their Pattaya property if business was not good.  Your vague notion that market research isn't done and things are just built willy-nilly just isn't flying.  

    Instead, I think quite a bit of market research was done.  Not just anything was thrown up as new construction on the site.  What Amari found--both through market research and customer feedback--was that there was a need for a more family-focused hotel wing that catered to families.  And, that's what they built.  It offers, instead of just hotel rooms, large suites that allow a family to all stay together.  There's a kids buffet bar at the restaurant and kid-focused activities.    Ditto for the other project on the site--Ozo--which is also looks to be more family-oriented and has large ballroom facilities.

    Large meeting facilities are a big feature of these new hotels.  The new Mytt Hotel just down the street can accommodate over a thousand people with its extensive ballroom and meeting spaces.  The new Grande Centre Point 2 going up now will also have extensive facilities to cater to destination weddings, seminars, business meetings company retreats, and so on.  

    The large north Pattaya hotels, and others, were all doing well pre-covid and were even doing ok on weekends before the shut down.  If the Pattaya hotel business was not good I really don't think the Centre Point company would, first, come to town and build the very large Grand Centre Point.  Then, with business still supposedly bad, turn the Trust Condo on Sukumvit into Centre Point Prime Hotel.  And then, with business STILL supposedly bad, start the massive Grande Centre Point 2.  Sorry, just not buying it.

      There's no doubt, however, that some small hotels and guesthouses were hurting, pre-covid, in Pattaya.  In the past few years dozens of very large 1000-unit condo projects, both highrise and lowrise, were built in Pattaya.  Many of them feature small 25 to 35 sqm condos that are ideal to illegally rent daily as hotel rooms.  Some smaller hotels and guesthouses--that don't offer all the bells and whistles of the large hotels--likely saw their businesses suffer as some tourists rented a condo room instead.

[tlandtday]

33 minutes ago, newnative said:

    Maybe ask your 5 star GM friend why Amari would build not one but two additions to their Pattaya property if business was not good.  Your vague notion that market research isn't done and things are just built willy-nilly just isn't flying.  

    Instead, I think quite a bit of market research was done.  Not just anything was thrown up as new construction on the site.  What Amari found--both through market research and customer feedback--was that there was a need for a more family-focused hotel wing that catered to families.  And, that's what they built.  It offers, instead of just hotel rooms, large suites that allow a family to all stay together.  There's a kids buffet bar at the restaurant and kid-focused activities.    Ditto for the other project on the site--Ozo--which is also looks to be more family-oriented and has large ballroom facilities.

    Large meeting facilities are a big feature of these new hotels.  The new Mytt Hotel just down the street can accommodate over a thousand people with its extensive ballroom and meeting spaces.  The new Grande Centre Point 2 going up now will also have extensive facilities to cater to destination weddings, seminars, business meetings company retreats, and so on.  

    The large north Pattaya hotels, and others, were all doing well pre-covid and were even doing ok on weekends before the shut down.  If the Pattaya hotel business was not good I really don't think the Centre Point company would, first, come to town and build the very large Grand Centre Point.  Then, with business still supposedly bad, turn the Trust Condo on Sukumvit into Centre Point Prime Hotel.  And then, with business STILL supposedly bad, start the massive Grande Centre Point 2.  Sorry, just not buying it.

      There's no doubt, however, that some small hotels and guesthouses were hurting, pre-covid, in Pattaya.  In the past few years dozens of very large 1000-unit condo projects, both highrise and lowrise, were built in Pattaya.  Many of them feature small 25 to 35 sqm condos that are ideal to illegally rent daily as hotel rooms.  Some smaller hotels and guesthouses--that don't offer all the bells and whistles of the large hotels--likely saw their businesses suffer as some tourists rented a condo room instead.

I believe most of the projects currently being built were committed to by both the builder and the banks prior to covid and have not been changed.  I think you will not be seeing many new projects shortly as the financing and kickbacks have dried up.

[newnative]

15 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Since when did tourists buy cars?

The only relevant cars for tourism in Pattaya would be Isuzu pickups.

 

Sorry to burst the bubble, but the tourist area of Pattaya is so small in comparison to the actual city that IMO it's irrelevant for the great majority of Pattaya residents, most of which IMO will rarely if ever go to that part of the city.

 

Those parks that you mention are not in the tourist area along the city waterfront, and many cater to tourists on day trips from elsewhere.

 

Pattaya isn't dying, but the tiny part that occupies the mind of us farangs may very well die and be resurrected as something entirely different.

     No, tourists don't buy cars.  Or hammers.  However, if new car dealers are coming to town--including luxury brands like Audi--it's a sign of a thriving, not dying city.  The same for Home Pro needing a second store--not to sell hammers to tourists but to serve a growing Greater Pattaya population.  

    I like to use Greater Pattaya and I feel you are a bit out of touch regarding Pattaya with your thinking that the tourist area is just along the city waterfront.  Many of the tourist attractions--built for the growing family tourist market--are outside of this area.  Nong Nooch Gardens.  Tiger Park.  Floating Market.  Flowerland.  Cartoon Network Waterpark.  Legend Siam.  Ramayana Water Park.  Dolphinarium.  Underwater World.  And others.

    You're also a bit out of touch with your thinking that the tourist part of Pattaya 'rarely if ever' attracts Pattaya residents.  Right now a very large parking garage is being built next to Terminal 21.  It's a joint project between the mall and the city and it's being built to accommodate the crowds of Pattaya residents and other visitors that, yes, do come to this area of town--in their cars--to enjoy the beach, shop and dine in the area, and to attend the many special events--more of which seem to be planned every year.

    To respond to one of your other posts, you're also a bit out of touch as to which tourists are booking into Hard Rock.  It's not mostly western.  It's mostly Asian.  Ditto for Hilton, which was doing well pre-covid.  As were all the large hotels in this part of Pattaya and north Pattaya.  (So well that Mytt Hotel, Ozo Hotel, a new Amari wing, Grand Centre Point, Brighton, Palazzo, and others were recently built--with two more under construction and a third wing for D' Beach Hotel going up. ) 

    Plus a new highrise hotel going up right across from Central Festival--a mall I believe you thought would fail miserably when it first opened.  You are right that several malls are not doing well--Harbor comes to mind--but Festiival and T21 were both thriving, pre-covid.  

[newnative]

54 minutes ago, tlandtday said:

I believe most of the projects currently being built were committed to by both the builder and the banks prior to covid and have not been changed.  I think you will not be seeing many new projects shortly as the financing and kickbacks have dried up.

     I think some of the projects could have been cancelled or put on hold.  Asiatique Prime, for example, was planned for Pattaya and set to go but it, apparently, has been put on hold for now.  It will be interesting to see if the large, new luxury condo Arom Wongamat is cancelled or goes forward.  And, some others, as well.  

[spidermike007]

13 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Whilst I do not disagree with your assessment of the residential market, the member you were replying to was clearly talking bout the commercial market, specifically, the commercial area of Central Pattaya, and Jomtien.  

I do not consider a rental apartment to be a part of the commercial market. It is clearly a residential condominium. And it is a direct indication of the weakness of the rental market. This also extends to the sales market. In particular condos have been very hard hit. It appears single family homes are not being driven down here, like the condos are. But, condos were overbuilt to a stunning degree, so you can look at it, as a health and much needed market correction. 

[spidermike007]

10 hours ago, DerbyDan said:

It's pride and face, bro.

Someone who would rather lose money and suffer then fess up and take a lower offer.

You can see the same principal at work in smallest interactions. Go into a night market and haggle over a belt that's made in China near worth nothing. The stall owner has thousands in a box in the rear room. He can't ever sell them all. Will probably end up throwing them out. Yey, he won't come down in price to half what he asked. It's just an 'oh well, nevermind'.

 

True. If I am in a market and have no idea of what the real price is, I will often offer 30% of what they are asking. You can often tell how real the price is by their reaction. If it was a "zeppelin price", they immediately drop by 50%! If not, they drop just a little bit, or not at all. 

[Leaver]

4 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

I do not consider a rental apartment to be a part of the commercial market. It is clearly a residential condominium. And it is a direct indication of the weakness of the rental market. This also extends to the sales market. In particular condos have been very hard hit. It appears single family homes are not being driven down here, like the condos are. But, condos were overbuilt to a stunning degree, so you can look at it, as a health and much needed market correction. 

 

The amount of residential properties being constructed is significantly higher than the amount commercial properties being constructed.   Many residential properties will just sit vacant for years, unable to be sold.

 

I wonder how exposed are the Thai banks.  

[kingofthemountain]

12 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

The amount of residential properties being constructed is significantly higher than the amount commercial properties being constructed.   Many residential properties will just sit vacant for years, unable to be sold.

 

I wonder how exposed are the Thai banks.  

There is something to keep in mind to understand the real estate market here:

in a corrupt country like Thailand where ''black money''

is flowing and the confidence in the financial institutions is limited

(Particularly since the 1997 crisis) a lot of wealthy people chose to ''park'' and ''clean'' their cash in brick and mortar things, like houses, condos, shopping mall, resorts and so on

 

that's one of the main reason why you can see all these big things build and stay empty without customers\renters staying here for

years, the fact they are commercialy profitables or not is not the most important in the thinking process

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by kingofthemountain

[wombat]

Sin city is not dead. That is a carefully cultivated illusion by us coffin dodgers that have pulled the duvet up and over while we enjoy gods waiting room.

[Skeptic7]

On 5/12/2021 at 11:16 AM, at15 said:

All of thailand is dead and dying nowadays. Complete shock at the lack of people on the streets and businesses closed when I am driving around bangkok, chiang mai, chiang rai, etc.

Pattaya/Jomtien, Udon Thani, Korat and...Kingdomwide. Shuttered ghost towns. Lotus, Big C, 7-11 will survive. All others, including bars, hotels and restaurants are a roll of the dice. Some will make it...most won't. 

[natway09]

Yes, we need the vaccine & we need it yesterday.

But the more I look around the world realize thet the vaccine is not the be all end all.

Massive lockdowns in Canada again, large outbreaks in Japan, Malaysia in a terrible state, Indonesia stil struggling, India,,,,well, Laos lockdown,as well as parts of Vietnam

It is going to be a long haul, slow recovery

[Mr Meeseeks]

On 5/12/2021 at 12:06 PM, ChaiyaTH said:

First trip was 2013, place was also still hopping and as the good old stories, it changed quickly after that in 2014 ish coup. Happy I did get the chance to experience it in my 20s, I knew it wouldn't last forever (partly as the new generation doesn't seem to be into paying for girls).

 

Well there is still the ABC hotel in Angeles City left for us hehehe.

Can't hold up to the 90's and early 00's I'm afraid. It was wild. Cheap, no closing times, everybody much friendlier, a lot less two week tourists, etc. After Purachai's puritanical campaign against alcohol and entertainment in 2002 things were never the same again. Final nails in the coffin were the GFC in 2008 and all downhill from there.

 

Late 00's and early 10's Phnom Penh was the place to be in my opinion. Again, that has lost a lot of its luster since the Pattaya mob started turning up en masse.

[kingstonkid]

On 5/12/2021 at 10:36 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

All areas that depended on tourism, which of course is more or less extinct in Pattaya.

Had you driven around the areas that people actually live in things might be different.

 

I think the council is missing a golden opportunity to demolish the entire area and construct a proper beach promenade 4 times wider, build 4 or even 6 lane roads with bus lanes and with proper wide pavements, put in some proper drainage that can handle the rain, and even put the monorail in. That way when tourism returns, as it will, things would be better.

However, I remember how after the tsunami wiped all the accommodation off Phi Phi they rebuilt the same <deleted> <deleted> as it was before, so I have no hope the council will take the opportunity to improve Pattaya. A golden opportunity wasted.

 

I ageree that it would be a grat time to re invent Pattaya waterfront.  The only problem is the idiots that own the properties or have enough clout to make it impossible.

 

There is absolutely no reason that walking street could not be redone as a 24 hour walking street with a day time attraction of a boardwalk and good food as well as nice shops but also a a nightlife area that is allowed to come to life at 9 pm.

 

The object is to cut down on the number of bars and girls on the street.

 

 

[Nanaplaza666]

On 5/12/2021 at 11:16 AM, BenDeCosta said:

 

But look at the UK. The people were promised that once all the vulnerable people had been vaccinated, things would swiftly return to normal. This happened some time ago, but many restrictions are still in place.

Pubs are filled , stadiums are allowing lots of fans again . Their on the right way . Or you really thought that the floodgates would have opened all the way emediatly ?? 

[Mr Meeseeks]

On 5/12/2021 at 2:13 PM, kynikoi said:

Honestly, Pattaya needs to die. It's begging to be reborn as a Thai majority bedroom community to Rayong industrial complex areas. 

 

Served by all the incoming rail transportation including a BTS for much wow.

 

Beer bars and gogos So last millennium.

Some truth here and I have heard this discussed with connected Thai friends whom are deeply embarrassed by the sex tourism image Pattaya cultivates right in the heart of the golden jewel of the Eastern Economic Corridor. 

 

Those hoping that the sex tourism industry comes back bigger and better than ever are in for a sharp wake up call.

 

The future is the EEC and all things that derail the great vision will fall by the wayside.

 

They are spending $40 billion on the EEC and it is written into the constitution so I don't think Fred, 50yo dustman from Grimsby, coming over for a two week holiday to bang maeng da leftovers factors into their plans.

[connda]

Dead.  And well past it's expiration date.  Like bad milk, is should be taken out to the trash at arm's length and unceremoniously dumped.
New normal Pattaya will be a GMO soy-milk latte that has been irradiated and that has a shelf life the same as the half-life of uranium.  And should be avoided in the future for the same reason.

[connda]

6 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Those hoping that the sex tourism industry comes back bigger and better than ever are in for a sharp wake up call.

You ignore the fact that the majority of the sex industry caters to Thai males.  ????
The embarrassed Thai socialites fail to talk about their own husband's and male partner's affection for mia nois, giks, and "rented wives."  
Nope - "Bad Sexpats!!! Look over there at the dirty, evil farangs."
Just misdirection to take the world's eye's off of their own societal shortcomings.  The business aimed directly at foreigners is simply the apparent tip-of-the-iceberg of what lies below the sordidness of average Thai sexuality.



 

Edited May 16, 2021 by connda

[Mr Meeseeks]

5 minutes ago, connda said:

You ignore the fact that the majority of the sex industry caters to Thai males.  ????

Most of that is behind closed doors and is not an embarrassment to the country. 

[RocketDog]

On 5/12/2021 at 10:33 AM, J Town said:

If anyone read "The Dark Tower" series, they'll understand the term "the world has moved on."  Yes, everything is shut down by decree and will probably go on an "open/shut" roller coaster for a year or two.

 

The sex industry was Pattaya's forte. That's been demolished. The girls found out they can make a fortune online without ever swapping bodily fluids. I don't think it will ever return to its glorious apex of the previous decade. I'm just seriously grateful I got in as many soapies as I did!

 

The world has moved on.

The world has moved on from physical sex? 

Girls making a fortune online? 

I seriously doubt both your claims. 

[connda]

4 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Most of that is behind closed doors and is not an embarrassment to the country. 

You're engaging is moral relativism and sound like an apologist for the Thai sex trade.  It's the same people running both shows.
For every Thai man looking for sexual entertainment there are Thai women looking to provide services.  But worse, are the non-Thais forced into sexual servitude by human traffickers. 
"Shhh.  It's behind closed doors.  It's OK!  ????"
Right.

[soi3eddie]

11 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Most of that is behind closed doors and is not an embarrassment to the country. 

 

I was going to write same but you got there first. I'll add that foreigners cavorting with scantily clad girls in open air beer bars at a family resort will always attract attention and never look good. At least the Thai men keep there philandering discrete.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by soi3eddie

[Mr Meeseeks]

3 minutes ago, connda said:

You're engaging is moral relativism and sound like an apologist for the Thai sex trade.  It's the same people running both shows.
For every Thai man looking for sexual entertainment there are Thai women looking to provide services.  But worse, are the non-Thais forced into sexual servitude by human traffickers. 
"Shhh.  It's behind closed doors.  It's OK!  ????"
Right.

You've made all that up. I posted nothing of the sort. ????

 

My point was the EEC is happening and if they need to flatten the whole of Pattaya's sex-tourism industry to achieve something that fits in with the grand vision that is what will happen.

[BenDeCosta]

I think Thailand just wants rid of the overt sex-trade like in Pattaya, Soi Cowboy etc. and the people that it attracts. But it will take years, if not decades to shake off the reputation of being a good destination for single men. I doubt the sex-tourists will be too bothered, they'll just go to Cambodia, the Philippines or somewhere else, it'll be no skin off their nose. But I wonder what would happen to all the people who owned businesses or worked in the sex trade? Surely it used to bring in a huge amount of money for the country, despite the fact that Thailand wouldn't admit it.

[kingofthemountain]

1 minute ago, soi3eddie said:

 

I was going to write same but you got there first. I'll add that foreigners cavorting with scantily clad girls in open air beer bars at a family resort will always attract attention and never look good. At least the Thais keep it discrete.

 

You should have seen the look on the face of a muslim family

(a man in his 40', the 2 veiled wifes and the 3 child) sit face

to me and my ladyboy in the baht bus

it was priceless lol

 

Don't forget that the punters were here long time before the place

pretended to become a ''family resort'' and we are the exact reason

why Pattaya isn't anymore a little fishing village. We are not all dead yet

[connda]

14 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

Most of that is behind closed doors and is not an embarrassment to the country. 

And no.  It's in plain sight if you understand Thai culture and can read Thai. 

[connda]

1 minute ago, kingofthemountain said:

Don't forget that the punters were here long time before the place

pretended to become a ''family resort'' and we are the exact reason

why Pattaya isn't anymore a little fishing village.

I was here in the 1980s.  It wasn't a "family resort", but it was very laid back.  I liked it.  Returned in 2000, didn't like it, left, never returned.  Not my cup of tea.

[kingofthemountain]

3 minutes ago, Mr Meeseeks said:

My point was the EEC is happening and if they need to flatten the whole of Pattaya's sex-tourism industry to achieve something that fits in with the grand vision that is what will happen.

Afaik the EEC hardly attract an infime part of the investissments expected

it looks like more of another oportunity to fill deep pockets with public money

[Mr Meeseeks]

 

1 minute ago, connda said:

And no.  It's in plain sight if you understand Thai culture and can read Thai. 

 

You've just proved my point. Foreigners don't understand Thai culture and can't read Thai so are not aware of the local scene therefore it is not an embarrassment for Thais as it is not as recognizable or in your face as the sex-tourism industry. 

 

No-one is denying its existence. You seem to have taken this rather personally and have gone off on a tangent from my original premise which was that the sex-tourism industry in Pattaya is an embarrassment to Thais and doesn't fit with the vision of the Eastern Economic Corridor.

 

BTW I can read and write Thai, speak fluently and have been here 31 years. 

 

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