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Maizefarmer

9 Arrested In California For Plot Against Laos Government

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Sorry about the multiple posts. I just remembered: in was Jerry ("Hog") Daniels, so I did a search and found some more details:

During the so-called secret war in Laos, the CIA financed and supplied an indigenous Hmong army led by General Vang Pao in an effort to counter the communist North Vietnamese and Pathet Lao forces overtaking Laos.

Support for the Hmong army was provided by the CIA-owned Air America and a cadre of CIA officers. It was the largest paramilitary operations ever undertaken by the CIA. The whole affair was trivialized in the movie Air America.

The secret war produced its share of scoundrels, heroes, and scoundrel-heroes. One stands out, a smoke jumper from Montana, Jerry "Hog" Daniels.

Jerry rose through CIA ranks to become advisor to the commander of the Hmong army, General Vang Pao. He fought alongside the Hmong from 1965 until the fall of the Hmong stronghold at Long Tieng in May 1975.

When the CIA pulled out of Laos in 1975, the remnants of the Hmong army and tens of thousands of the Hmong people made a desperate and tortured run for the refugee camps in Thailand.

Jerry's duty was to his country, but his commitment was to the Hmong people. He might have continued a promising career with the CIA or in the State Department away from Southeast Asia, but his commitment took him to the refugee camps were he coordinated Hmong resettlement to the United States.

On April 29, 1982, Jerry Daniels was found dead of carbon monoxide poisoning in his Bangkok apartment; a suspicious death to be sure. His remains were flown to the States in a sealed coffin. Soon rumors circulated that the coffin was sealed because Jerry wasn't in it; he was really still alive and roaming the hills of Laos seeking revenge on anyone who would do the Hmong harm.

Rumors aside, General Vang Pao had relocated from Laos to Orange County, California before Jerry died. He asked Jerry's family for and was granted permission to bury him in the Hmong tradition - a solemn and fitting tribute to the American who didn't abandon them in their time of need.

From: http://www.scarysquirrel.org/vacation/laos/

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Sorry about the multiple posts. I just remembered: in was Jerry ("Hog") Daniels, so I did a search and found some more details:

During the so-called secret war in Laos, the CIA financed and supplied an indigenous Hmong army led by General Vang Pao in an effort to counter the communist North Vietnamese and Pathet Lao forces overtaking Laos.

Support for the Hmong army was provided by the CIA-owned Air America and a cadre of CIA officers. It was the largest paramilitary operations ever undertaken by the CIA. The whole affair was trivialized in the movie Air America.

The secret war produced its share of scoundrels, heroes, and scoundrel-heroes. One stands out, a smoke jumper from Montana, Jerry "Hog" Daniels.

Jerry rose through CIA ranks to become advisor to the commander of the Hmong army, General Vang Pao. He fought alongside the Hmong from 1965 until the fall of the Hmong stronghold at Long Tieng in May 1975.

When the CIA pulled out of Laos in 1975, the remnants of the Hmong army and tens of thousands of the Hmong people made a desperate and tortured run for the refugee camps in Thailand.

Jerry's duty was to his country, but his commitment was to the Hmong people. He might have continued a promising career with the CIA or in the State Department away from Southeast Asia, but his commitment took him to the refugee camps were he coordinated Hmong resettlement to the United States.

On April 29, 1982, Jerry Daniels was found dead of carbon monoxide poisoning in his Bangkok apartment; a suspicious death to be sure. His remains were flown to the States in a sealed coffin. Soon rumors circulated that the coffin was sealed because Jerry wasn't in it; he was really still alive and roaming the hills of Laos seeking revenge on anyone who would do the Hmong harm.

Rumors aside, General Vang Pao had relocated from Laos to Orange County, California before Jerry died. He asked Jerry's family for and was granted permission to bury him in the Hmong tradition - a solemn and fitting tribute to the American who didn't abandon them in their time of need.

From: http://www.scarysquirrel.org/vacation/laos/

Also see:

http://www.smokejumpers.com/smokejumper_ma..._editions_id=19

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Next they will be asking tony Po to lead it - oops he is dead.

The young bucks here won't know who Tony ("Tony Po") Poshepny was -- a CIA wild man who "helped" with the H'mong "resistance" in Laos during the Vietnam War period.

You'd have to be a wild man to live with the H'mong. Do a google search if you're interested. Fascinating character.

Fascinating definitely, but in a somewhat horrid way.

Again, sorry, but I recall more. Some think Tony Po was the basis for the Marlon Brando caharacter in "Apacolypse Now"

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Again, sorry, but I recall more. Some think Tony Po was the basis for the Marlon Brando caharacter in "Apacolypse Now"

Then you should also recall that Tony Poe also had a reward for ears of killed enemies set out. Only after he saw several Hmong children without ears he realized that some of the money paid was paid for by those ears as well, and stopped it.

I would say, yes, fascinating, in a rather horrid way. Tony Poe is the epitome of the nasty and dirty secret wars the US was involved after WW2. From Indonesia to Tibet, and culminating in Laos - Tony Poe was there.

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Again, sorry, but I recall more. Some think Tony Po was the basis for the Marlon Brando caharacter in "Apacolypse Now"

Then you should also recall that Tony Poe also had a reward for ears of killed enemies set out. Only after he saw several Hmong children without ears he realized that some of the money paid was paid for by those ears as well, and stopped it.

I would say, yes, fascinating, in a rather horrid way. Tony Poe is the epitome of the nasty and dirty secret wars the US was involved after WW2. From Indonesia to Tibet, and culminating in Laos - Tony Poe was there.

Perhaps so, but I'm not sure about Tibet. Where I'm from in Colorado they trained Tibetian "fighters" in the early '60s at high altitude (Camp Hale, Colorado, near Leadville, at heights of more than 14,000, feet, which is about as high as the Rockies go). As I understand it, every single one that parachuted into Tibet was never heard from again (what kind of arrogance is that from the U.S. government?). Not one of them. So I doubt that Tony Poe was among them. Perhaps he was on the flights...if so, still fascinating.

You have to remember that it was the Cold War and there were the true believers.

Camp Hale, incidently, was built during WWII to train soldiers for alpine fighting in the Alps and and also the Appinnes of Italy. It was called the 10th Mountain Division, which successfully pushed the Germans out of Italy and then further north. Its veterans founded many of the ski areas in Colorado today (most have since died). Anyway, at its height Camp Hale had 10,000 soldiers training at high altitude during WWII.

The last use I know of for the camp was to train the Tibetians. The camp itself was demolished in the '60s or '70s. Today you can still see its foundations and runways.

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Again, sorry, but I recall more. Some think Tony Po was the basis for the Marlon Brando caharacter in "Apacolypse Now"

Then you should also recall that Tony Poe also had a reward for ears of killed enemies set out. Only after he saw several Hmong children without ears he realized that some of the money paid was paid for by those ears as well, and stopped it.

I would say, yes, fascinating, in a rather horrid way. Tony Poe is the epitome of the nasty and dirty secret wars the US was involved after WW2. From Indonesia to Tibet, and culminating in Laos - Tony Poe was there.

Perhaps so, but I'm not sure about Tibet. Where I'm from in Colorado they trained Tibetian "fighters" in the early '60s at high altitude (Camp Hale, Colorado, near Leadville, at heights of more than 14,000, feet, which is about as high as the Rockies go). As I understand it, every single one that parachuted into Tibet was never heard from again (what kind of arrogance is that from the U.S. government?). Not one of them. So I doubt that Tony Poe was among them. Perhaps he was on the flights...if so, still fascinating.

You have to remember that it was the Cold War and there were the true believers.

Camp Hale, incidently, was built during WWII to train soldiers for alpine fighting in the Alps and and also the Appinnes of Italy. It was called the 10th Mountain Division, which successfully pushed the Germans out of Italy and then further north. Its veterans founded many of the ski areas in Colorado today (most have since died). Anyway, at its height Camp Hale had 10,000 soldiers training at high altitude during WWII.

The last use I know of for the camp was to train the Tibetians. The camp itself was demolished in the '60s or '70s. Today you can still see its foundations and runways.

If you are interested in that period, especially the Tibet story, i would strongly recommend to read "Orphans of the Cold War", written by a former CIA operative deeply involved in this issue. It outlines the whole history of US involvement in Tibet, including its shameful leaving after the geopolitical changed when US and China came closer together.

Tony Poe's involvement was earlier, before the airdrops and the Mustang armies. He is rumored to have been involved in the preparation and escape of the Dalai Lama (another carefully engineered event of which there is a lot behind that commonly known, such as deliberate destabilization efforts by the CIA to force down such a situation).

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Again, sorry, but I recall more. Some think Tony Po was the basis for the Marlon Brando caharacter in "Apacolypse Now"

Then you should also recall that Tony Poe also had a reward for ears of killed enemies set out. Only after he saw several Hmong children without ears he realized that some of the money paid was paid for by those ears as well, and stopped it.

I would say, yes, fascinating, in a rather horrid way. Tony Poe is the epitome of the nasty and dirty secret wars the US was involved after WW2. From Indonesia to Tibet, and culminating in Laos - Tony Poe was there.

Perhaps so, but I'm not sure about Tibet. Where I'm from in Colorado they trained Tibetian "fighters" in the early '60s at high altitude (Camp Hale, Colorado, near Leadville, at heights of more than 14,000, feet, which is about as high as the Rockies go). As I understand it, every single one that parachuted into Tibet was never heard from again (what kind of arrogance is that from the U.S. government?). Not one of them. So I doubt that Tony Poe was among them. Perhaps he was on the flights...if so, still fascinating.

You have to remember that it was the Cold War and there were the true believers.

Camp Hale, incidently, was built during WWII to train soldiers for alpine fighting in the Alps and and also the Appinnes of Italy. It was called the 10th Mountain Division, which successfully pushed the Germans out of Italy and then further north. Its veterans founded many of the ski areas in Colorado today (most have since died). Anyway, at its height Camp Hale had 10,000 soldiers training at high altitude during WWII.

The last use I know of for the camp was to train the Tibetians. The camp itself was demolished in the '60s or '70s. Today you can still see its foundations and runways.

If you are interested in that period, especially the Tibet story, i would strongly recommend to read "Orphans of the Cold War", written by a former CIA operative deeply involved in this issue. It outlines the whole history of US involvement in Tibet, including its shameful leaving after the geopolitical changed when US and China came closer together.

Tony Poe's involvement was earlier, before the airdrops and the Mustang armies. He is rumored to have been involved in the preparation and escape of the Dalai Lama (another carefully engineered event of which there is a lot behind that commonly known, such as deliberate destabilization efforts by the CIA to force down such a situation).

I avoid the use of pejorative terms like "shameful.' To get this threat back on track:

A H'mong killed about seven hunters in Minnesota a few years ago because they "disrespected" him. He was out hunting too.

In Boulder, Colorado a van-full of Hmong youths kidnapped an raped a co-ed. At least one (of the four in the van) committed suicide when the police finally caught up with them.

The H'mong are running in gangs in southern Cailfornia (who isn't?).

The H'mong have a tradition of kidnapping their wives (no "quotes," truly kidnapping). That doesn't go over too well in US law.

The H'mong are among the several "hilltribe people" that have no written language.

I lived in SE Asia for a long time and the H'mong seem to be the ones who are least amenable to to integration -- or at least toleration - - of other (even other hilltribe) cultures. It's the H'mong way or the highway. Fine if you need warriors, but not so good for peaceful coexistence.

The H'mong were also the most active in poppy production for opium or heroin in Thailand before it was mostly eradicated there.

It's possible that the H'mong population in Laos outnumbers the ethnic Lao, who live in the valleys, while the H'mong live in the wilds (and don't kid yourself, Laos is a wild, mountainous place).

Vang Pao is basically the "king" of the H'mong, but to me he is nothing more than a brutal tribal chieftain. Because the H'mong, along with Thai mercenaries, helped fight the war in Laos, his tribe was granted special status to immigrate to the US. I know the Thais think their well rid of them.

Like most hilltribe groups, the H'mong are of northern or Tibetian origin; they have been migrating for generations and it seems they can't get along with any of their "host" cultures.

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Vang Pao is basically the "king" of the H'mong, but to me he is nothing more than a brutal tribal chieftain.

That describes him very well.

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Again, sorry, but I recall more. Some think Tony Po was the basis for the Marlon Brando caharacter in "Apacolypse Now"

Then you should also recall that Tony Poe also had a reward for ears of killed enemies set out. Only after he saw several Hmong children without ears he realized that some of the money paid was paid for by those ears as well, and stopped it.

For you readers out there, if you're at all still interested, this is generally accepted as true...hence the basis of the movie "Apocalypse Now".

Tony Poe tried to fight fire with fire -- savagery to fight savagery -- and he believed he was effective, using savages in a savage environment.

To all you bleeding hearts...well, do your research...it's easy condemn people, but I'm sure he was closer to them and helped them more than you ever will with your easily given blessings on the internet or at some politically correct rally. He mostly dedicated his latter life to the H'mong and when he died a few years ago in San Francisco, an old and broken and perhaps alcholilic man, was honored as a warrior by the H'mong people. He might have been just a ghost of his former self, but he did die beloved.

Just a report...the H'mong are not my cup of tea.

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Another report from y'day (Wed Thailand)..

DID HMONG CRISIS SPUR VANG PAO 'PLOT'?

Jim Pollard

The Nation (P8, Opinion Page)

News that General Vang Pao may have been plotting to overthrow the Lao government will come as little surprise to people in Laos, or groups and individuals within the region who have been following the plight of the “jungle Hmong”, which is particularly bad at present.

Remnants of Hmong groups that have survived since the war in remote areas of mainly northern Laos are in their death throes, given several years of a reportedly brutal crackdown by Lao and Vietnamese troops in the Saysomboom restricted zone, a series of large surrenders by the main jungle groups and a mass exodus across the Mekong to Phetchabun province.

The recent bilateral agreement by a ThaiLao border committee last month – to forcibly return any new arrivals to Laos “no matter how many bullet wounds they have”, as one sarcastic observer noted – was probably the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back.

Vang Pao would have been acutely aware of how dire the situation has become in recent weeks, which have seen a series of alerts of looming forced deportations from detention centres in the North and far Northeast, where Hmong from Laos have been detained.

Websites in the US such as factfinding.org carry regular updates on the predicament of Hmong refugees here, which is now an issue of international attention thanks to activists such as Joe Davy, Laura Xiong, Ed Szendrey and Rebecca Sommer.

Sommer, a German, recently showed her documentary on the plight of the jungle Hmong – “Hunted Like Animals” – in New York. She had initially planned to screen the film in the UN building itself, “but Vietnamese officials stopped that”, she said.

Early last month, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) sent a senior official to Bangkok and Vientiane to stop the forced repatriation of 155 Hmong at Nong Khai Immigration Detention Centre, all of whom are listed as “people of concern” and believed to be at genuine risk of persecution or even death, if returned. That group remains, in a pathetic state of limbo, but the two governments have virtually thumbed their noses at the UN by sending back many similar groups.

Indeed, Reuters reported recently that Thai officials have ordered UNHCR staff in Bangkok to stop processing refugee applications because of the large number of Hmong and North Korean seeking refuge here.

Hundreds of people with serious claims to refugee status have crossed into Thailand this year but none have been listed since late last year.

At least two large groups of Hmong with serious claims to refugee status (strong links to groups that have survived in the Lao jungles) have been forcibly deported in recent weeks. And a third group of 45 people is now crammed in Lom Sak police station awaiting the same dismal fate. This group allegedly includes survivors and relatives of 26 people killed in a notorious massacre near Vang Vieng on April 6 last year. (Photos have been posted at rogerarnold.net by the US photographer taken to the site several months later.)

Perhaps the most unusual aspect of the whole crazy Vang Pao “plot” is that the US government actually opted to prevent this latest alleged scheme going ahead.

Why? Because many in Laos and Thailand suspect Washington has either turned a blind eye to such activities in the 30 years since the Vietnam War – or has actually encouraged efforts to destabilise the tiny Asian regime and its socialist leaders, many of whom are ex-military and seen as bitter ideological foes.

French journalist Cyril Payen is one of about eight Western journalists and photographers who have sneaked into the military zones in Laos in recent years. He has just published a book, “Laos, the Forgotten War”, which details one of several raids into Laos in the 1980s or 1990s by foreign mercenaries allegedly backed by Hmong exiles abroad, and even the Thai military.

Payen said his interest in Laos grew after he met two French mercenaries on the Thai-Burma border after the fall of Manerplaw in 1995.

“They told me about the Hmong. They said they undertook a security mission in 1989 allegedly organised by [a high-ranking Thai military official], to prove there were some resistance groups still existing. They went with a group of overseas Hmong, crossed the Mekong, and made a six-month trip to Phu Bia, a huge mountain where rebels were based. They lost about 200 men – mostly Hmong from America, who were killed by the Vietnamese. But they found 4,000 to 5,000 people – Hmong. The group included kids who were victims of chemical weapons.

“They [the mercenaries] said they later made a film and wrote a book about this, but nobody cared. They had gone later to join the Karen [fighting the Burmese] but were crying when they told me about the Hmong they met years before.”

However, not many realise current Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont, a former Army chief, but one regarded as having a far greater grasp of moral issues than the military official Payen spoke of, is fast gaining a bad reputation because of his regime’s treatment of the Hmong. Some have argued that the Surayud government has agreed to summarily deport all Hmong because it needs help from Vientiane, as the Council for National Security fears the “former power” or Thai Rak Thai heavyweights may seek to use Laos to funnel weapons or mercenaries, or simply large bundles of Thai baht to buy the next election.

=========

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Next they will be asking tony Po to lead it - oops he is dead.

The young bucks here won't know who Tony ("Tony Po") Poshepny was -- a CIA wild man who "helped" with the H'mong "resistance" in Laos during the Vietnam War period.

You'd have to be a wild man to live with the H'mong. Do a google search if you're interested. Fascinating character.

Perhaps you need to be a wild man "snake eater" type to fight a war alongside the Mong, but I have always found the Mong in Thailand and in the US to be quite amicable. My sister-inlaw was married for many years to a Mong man in Thailand and I use to spend quite a bit of time in their village. I always found the Mong to be quite friendly and rather gregarious. My only caution is to be wary of the corn pone whisky brewed during the Mong New Year.

Lots of speculation about Poe, one of several snake eaters tasked in Laos. But one of the best book I have found remains Back Fire: The CIA's Secret War in Laos and Its Link to the War in Vietnam by Roger Warner.

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Oh my god.

When do these people realize that the war is over? I cannot stand those insurgencies - nobody gains, and it makes life or normal people intolerable. Expect a new round of persecution of Hmong in Laos. :o

Sure. We should have said the same in 1940 : "the war is over. So why bother ?"

It's not an insurgency. It's simply "resistance" against a gvt of killers, mafioso style with a touch of stalinism, who continue to hunt down Hmong people, even now.

However, I agree with you, the war is over, indeed. The US have had already betrayed and abandoned Hmong and freedom fighthers (useless tools, and rather embarassing, after the pull back from Vietnam in 70's).

So, it's just another betrayal.

There will be probably other.

It's a shame.

Hardly a word of truth in here.

While it's true that Lao Hmong continue to be persecuted in Laos. it has nothing to do with America or the war. They are persecuted because of their birth rate in comparison to the Lao people and many refuse to "come in" to become Village people" and become "Lao" as the Lao PDR would wish. The operations of would be insurgency groups are separate from this, as their aim is to seek economic influence in Lao through gaining their own autonomous state. Their aims put the lives of remaining Lao mong further at risk. America has taken in The Lao Hming of the Vietnam War period and their offspring and their offsprings offspring. If they didn't take more it's because the IOM and UNHCR didn't see fit to register more as legitimate refugees.

I will say this however. It is true the US has betrayed and abandoned the Vietnamese Montagnard people, who were their allies during the war. This betrayal can be put down to the efforts of one man, Senator John Kerry, who blocked proposals which were unanimously supported in the US Congress, which would have aided them. It's mystery to me why he did this, but there was internet talk that his family made a lot of money in Vietnamese commercial ventures. You can Google it if you wish to know more.

For those who do not understand how the Hmong people are treated in Laos, I recommend you review these videos, which will open your eyes to the truth than from what you have read or what you assume to believe. These are graphic videos that support why General Vang Pao had to take things into his hands. All I support is that the Hmong people need to be acknowledged for their sacrifices and contribution to the US, and for the US and the UN to step in to help the Hmong people of Laos escape "death" (men's inhumanity to men). This is inhumane treatment. Please uncover the veil that has shrouded your view of the truth. The truth will set us free!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJHerGolvR0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtW08-HrGPI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJnUaH6_-cc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS2JOGTd2OU

Edited by nyuajsiab

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Irony Alert

... the truth will set us free!!!

YouTube is still blocked {censored} in Thailand, so the links above are not very helpful.

Regards

/edit mad typist strikes again... //

Edited by A_Traveller

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I thought about all of this last night and today. A previous poster may have been close to the mark when he wrote something to the effect that Vang Pao and his guys should be sent to Guantanamo Bay. How can the U.S. continue to press other nations about harboring terrorists when she herself does?

Their plan, if true, was indeed to inflict terrorist damage.

Ah, and now we get into it....who is the terrorist and who is the patriot? I suppose it depends on who your own patriot is.

A few other general thoughts: The Lao government is extremely weak. The country itself is of African-level poverty. There is no real government in Laos, and there never has been. In more modern times, it was caught between the French Indochina Empire, the British in Burma and Siam -- essentially a buffer zone, and is a creation of the French. They gave more attention to Cambodia than to Laos. Before that it was a vassal state of Siam.

It has been and remains a sort of "black hole."

I remember seeing the "National Library" in Vientiane about 10 years ago. I was a disused shack of a building.

The country is completely landlocked. It has no railroad. The first hard-surfaced road between Vientiane and Luang Prabang was built about a decade ago...by the Vietnamese.

So to say there is a government in Laos is pushing it.

There is definitely some sort of civil war still going on. As I said before it could well be that the H'mong outnumber the Lao. In the highlands -- which is most of Laos -- the ethnic Lao are totally out of their league. They stick to the river valleys and limited amount of flat paddy land so they can grow rice like the Thai do. It would not even be a close fight between the H'mong and the Lao in the mountains. America, with all its technology and well-trained soldiers couldn't do it in Vietnam. The Lao aren't that...they're arai gidai just as their Thai cousins are.

Yes, Laos remains a black hole. People talk about the Congo being the "Heart of Darkness." I think Laos is there too.

And as much as I think that the H'mong are arrogant and stubborn, it could well be that they are under extreme threat, but I don't think the Lao government could do it. But if the Vietnamese are involved, well...

It could well be that Vang Pao made desperate attempts to rescue "his" people. Perhaps it is that dire, as some of the previous posts have noted. If so, he is a great leader of his people who never gave up the True Belief (not mine, his). I think he was a savage warlord, but his commitment appears undoubted.

For the H'mong, to arrest him is a great dishonor. Those are fightin' terms, and they love to fight.

The US should have just warned him off quietly.

Sorry about the convoluted babbling...

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