Am I Breaking A Precept ? Regarding Theft

[Grover]

My employer gives out earplugs as I work in a noisy environment. They are in a box and we can take them as we need them. When I go home I might leave a couple of *used* ones in my pocket instead of throwing them out, to use them while sleeping (noisy neighbor's etc). Is this theft ? I don't think so but have doubts... which im hoping to clear up on this thread.

[chownah]

I believe that the precept is often stated as 'don't take anything that is not freely given.' You should decide if the earplugs are freely given or not....its up to you to decide this, not someone else.

I also believe that your intent is important in this matter.

Chownah

[garro]

Can't give you a definite answer but the fact that you need to ask suggests that you might think it is wrong. I would go with my instincts. If something bothers me it is probably best not to do it.

[Grover]

Can't give you a definite answer but the fact that you need to ask suggests that you might think it is wrong. I would go with my instincts. If something bothers me it is probably best not to do it.

Yes, there is a feeling that it could be wrong but I don't know if this feeling is based on a misunderstanding of "right view" and "right action" of the 8 fold path. I know earplugs are only a little thing but its the principle behind it.

[RedQualia]

My employer gives out earplugs as I work in a noisy environment. They are in a box and we can take them as we need them. When I go home I might leave a couple of *used* ones in my pocket instead of throwing them out, to use them while sleeping (noisy neighbor's etc). Is this theft ? I don't think so but have doubts... which im hoping to clear up on this thread.

The earplugs are "consumables." They are a cost of doing business. They get used up, and thrown away. If I understand you correctly, you are concerned that you keep a few in your pocket INSTEAD of throwing them away.

If you did throw them away, and then you later went to look through the garbage and found some earplugs to use, would that be theft? I ask seriously.

[Grover]

The earplugs are "consumables." They are a cost of doing business. They get used up, and thrown away. If I understand you correctly, you are concerned that you keep a few in your pocket INSTEAD of throwing them away.

Yes you understood what I meant correctly.

If you did throw them away, and then you later went to look through the garbage and found some earplugs to use, would that be theft? I ask seriously.

I dont know. But say if picking out used earplugs from bins was not considered theft, could I then get a new set, put them in my ears for 5 seconds, throw the "used" plugs in the bin, pick them out and claim ownership ? At what point does the earplug become "used" and how am I to make that judgment ?

Chownah mentioned something about intent before, but how can I trust my intent ? I would need perfect discernment which I dont have. I detect a small element of greed somewhere behind my actions but I dont think this greed necessarily indicates I am doing a karmically bad thing as far as theft goes.

[chownah]

Why not tell your employer what you are doing and see if its ok? If you don't want to tell your employer then you probably shouldn't be doing it.

Another approach is to ask your employer if you can keep the used ear plugs for use at home. Simple really.

Don't take what is not freely given is how it is often phrased. It is my uninformed view (I really don't know what your situation is) that you are taking what is not freely given. No one has said, " sure, go ahead and take some." That would be freely given. Taking a coin you find on the floor is taking something that is not freely given in my view....but really it is up to you to decide for yourself what is freely given....for me the test is, "Did someone who was not being coerced specifically give me permission to take this?" For me if the answer is "no" then it is not freely given.

Chownah

[longway]

buy your own earplugs. maybe you will be able to sleep better at night.

is it theft? from the way you describe it i find it hard to see how it can be.

are you being a bit tight though by not buying your own, the answer is yes.

[RedQualia]

The earplugs are "consumables." They are a cost of doing business. They get used up, and thrown away. If I understand you correctly, you are concerned that you keep a few in your pocket INSTEAD of throwing them away.

Yes you understood what I meant correctly.

If you did throw them away, and then you later went to look through the garbage and found some earplugs to use, would that be theft? I ask seriously.

I dont know. But say if picking out used earplugs from bins was not considered theft, could I then get a new set, put them in my ears for 5 seconds, throw the "used" plugs in the bin, pick them out and claim ownership ? At what point does the earplug become "used" and how am I to make that judgment ?

Chownah mentioned something about intent before, but how can I trust my intent ? I would need perfect discernment which I dont have. I detect a small element of greed somewhere behind my actions but I dont think this greed necessarily indicates I am doing a karmically bad thing as far as theft goes.

Good advice from the others, re: buy your own, and/or ask your boss if it's ok to keep them.

Otherwise, I think you should be able to tell when the ear plugs are used, and when they are not. If you show up for work, and work is called off after a half hour, for example, the ear plugs would still be used just as if you had worn them for 8-12 hours.

If you were to "use" a set of ear plugs, on the other hand, just for the ability to somehow say that they have been used so that you might keep them, then you would know you attempt to deceive others, because you could see your attempt to deceive yourself.

I might add that if worry over whether keeping these ear plugs is the extent of your karmic danger, you strike me as being in pretty good shape. That you appear to be genuinely worried about this strikes me as another point in your favor. I confess that I have a hard time applying the word "greed" to ear plugs, as you do...

Ask your boss. Or, just go with your gut. You'll know when it's theft, and when it's not. And/or, limit yourself to only salvaging a set once a week or so, making sure you only take the ones that are "good and used!"

[wolfmanjack]

As another poster said Earplugs are a consumable. It is not theft to take a used pair home. They can be washed and reused but I know of no companies that require this. If your boss allows 2 pairs a day then he is freely giving 2 pairs a day but it is given with the intent that you will use 1 pair in the morning and the second pair after lunch. I can't see why your boss would care if you take used earplugs home and would probably let you take all of the used earplugs home. He would probably wonder what you were doing with the earplugs.

I noticed that you posted this at around 2pm. Is this during working hours ??????? Instead of worrying about the earplugs ask your boss if he cares about you reading and posting on thaivisa during working hours.

One of workers reads forums during working hours. When there is nothing else to do I don't care but it pisses me off when I catch them doing it when their work isn't finished.

[Grover]

ok thanks for the helpful advice, which I will use.

wolfmanjack, No, I dont post during working hours. Im in a different time zone, dont normally work saturdays, and anyways start work at 3pm.

[Grover]

I might add that if worry over whether keeping these ear plugs is the extent of your karmic danger, you strike me as being in pretty good shape. That you appear to be genuinely worried about this strikes me as another point in your favor. I confess that I have a hard time applying the word "greed" to ear plugs, as you do...

I'm not too worried about all this, I am more interested in the process of making a decision on the issue. I was using the term "greed" as a motivating force behind actions and thoughts, it was a type of greed in a subtle form. And earplugs are not the extent of my karmic danger Just I think its easier to get the small things right before tackling the bigger ones.

[wolfmanjack]

ok thanks for the helpful advice, which I will use.

wolfmanjack, No, I dont post during working hours. Im in a different time zone, dont normally work saturdays, and anyways start work at 3pm.

Good to hear. I forgot that many of the posters here are not living in thailand.

[markwhite]

My employer gives out earplugs as I work in a noisy environment. They are in a box and we can take them as we need them. When I go home I might leave a couple of *used* ones in my pocket instead of throwing them out, to use them while sleeping (noisy neighbor's etc). Is this theft ? I don't think so but have doubts... which im hoping to clear up on this thread.

Ask your employer if they're freely given. Does he mind if you take a couple of used ones home now and again. Whatever way he answers, you will have your answer.