Chiang Mai Faces Potential Tourism Crisis

[iang]

And the development in CM continues at an alarming rate! Under construction and / or advanced planning in CM right now are a huge number of initernational and mainly 5 star hotel properties - Chedi; Banyan Tree; Dusit; Shangri-la; Oriental; Le Meridien - how are they going to fill all these places, which will all mostly open within a 12 month period of each other?!?

Without doubt, regrettably tourism is (or at last can be without propper planning) a destructive process where we often end up destroying the very thing that attracted the tourists to the area in the first place. Tourism development needs to be managed but here in Thailand, despite the lessons of Pattaya and Patong, we still see unplanned and unabated developments.

Having just returned from a business trip to the South, I waas encouraged to see that in resort developments in Khao Lak, that developers (unlike in the past & in so many areas) were not cutting down the trees when building hotels but going to extreme lengths to preserve as many as possible - how heartening.

The motor vehicle is blamed for much of the polution in CM however, whilst I can definitely not profess to be an expert in this area, as a CM resident, I'm convinced that much of the polution comes not from petrol / diesel engines, but from the open burning of domestic waste! I see it every day - you don't have to go very far to see local houses burning their waste /garbage on a daily basis & I'm not just talking about vegetable / paper based materials either - plastics, rubber - it all goes onto the fire, creating both stench and polution. Whilst my domestic garbage gets collected, I'm not convinced that that doesn't get burned somewhere else either! How about a city & metropolital garbage collection system together with correct methods of disposal? The positive impact on polution would be more than significant!

Finally, tourists coming to the great city of CM can not believe that a city of this size does not have a regulated and metered taxi system. It is unbelievable that a city of this size can effectively be held to randsom by the 'tuk tuk mafia'!

I am told that one major UK based tour company stopped sending it's clients to CM due to complaints of being 'ripped off' by tuk tuk operators. This is not to even mention the comfort of sitting in an air-con car as against eating diesel smoke in the back of a tuk tuk! CM has to 'grow up', beat down the 'powers of darkness' and get itself some fleets of metered air-con taxis immediately, especially if it wants to grow as a tourism hub & fill all those new 5 star deluxe hotels!

[Crushdepth]

My two cents: I don't think the demise of Chiang Mai is anything to do with greed, its just piss-poor planning, another 'tragedy of the commons'. The number one cause of environmental degradation in any form is people. Every individual is a consumer and the more more people you have (be they tourists or locals), the more pressure on the local environment.

The need for regulation, planning and zoning increases as a city grows. You can do a lot with public education campaigns about litter etc but ultimately more people will always = more pressure.

[cutethaigirl]

Chaing Mai has a great zoo already... yet no one comes to CM specifically to see it.

Please can you define 'tourism'?

Do you all just talk about some Westerners coming to visit CM?

Go to the Zoo on a public holiday and look at the car registration plates. MOST of them are from outside CM but within Thailand. Check the figures that the Zoo published about their income this last year.

All those people coming to the Zoo, dop they not spend money in CM and stay a few days as well?

Look at any place in the world and you can see that it must be a good idea to have major attractions. How much tourism money would ??Anaheim in USA see if there was not Disney near by.

Chiangmai is growing and i am 100% in agreement for growth but as a lot of valid points say the growth has to be controlled.

The guy from Vermont - can you come to teach the Governor of Chiangmai PLEASDE:-)

Notice in his excellent post that THE PEOPLE of Vermont wanted it.

What do the ordinary people of Chiangmai want?

As someone said there are some great new crossings in CM to make crossing the road, nobody is spending money whilst driving, for walkers. Watch the Thai driver all he cares about is himself and just keeps going.

Look at the traffic. Look at the pollution. I do not know exactly but about 1 car, truck in every 1000 is throwing out black smoke, why because tyhe owner only cares about himself, the road infront of him is clear why worry about behind?

Take those one cars off the road and pollution will ease??

Saying CM is not the same as 20 years ago of course is true but do all Westerners expect to see people walking around with no shoes like 100 years ago, or all wood houses like 20 years ago.?

Westerners and Thais actually LIKE and USE modern shopping centres, try building one from wood!! Isn't concrete the building material used the world over? Why not CM.

There is one problem with CM development and that is an almost selfish attitude of thinking about only how to look after my own income.

Solve that by ALL working together and CM will remain beautiful AND modern.

It needs STRONG leadership from the Governor and money from the Government.

You can knock Taksin all you like <boring> but the money is coming. Look at George latest post about pollution.

Maybe all the non native CM people at this Forum can form an action group and suggest things to the Governor. Personally i think he WILL listen. He knows the way but has to change the mindset of the population.

Man from Vermont come to be the Chaiman:-)

CT

[chanchao]

I agree with about two things in that article, and one of them isn't in it:

1. The night safari project is a waste of money. How about promoting real nature and getting rid of the 200 baht entrance fee for tourists.

2. Building 4-5 5 new star hotels is a bit rediculous. I don't think Chiang Mai is has ever been a destination for high spending business and leisure travellers. Building hotels IMHO will not change that. Oh well, worst case scenario is that we're going to end up with 4-5 really nice all be it slightly run down mid-range hotels. :-))

The rest is like 'almost, but too superficial, resulting in being a waste of time reading the article'.

Like: "Already the pollution is terrible" is not a true statement. But it is an 'almost' kind of thing to write, because there definitely is an issue with air quality in the hot & dry season, where the valley location and burning the fields results in bad smog for about 2 months of the year. Outside of this period the air quality is excellent, no comparison at all to Bangkok. But yes there's an issue and efforts could be spent to reduce pollution during the hot & dry season.

"Chiang Mai has no buses and taxis" Well hello... Didn't they notice those red converted pick-ups all over the place? Or the Aircon bus # 10? Or that a meter taxi service is starting in the city? This makes this statement factually untrue. Granted, there aren't many meter taxis to be a viable service yet, but why would any journalist not mention the apparent efforts to get this started?

"Already the pollution is terrible, there are a lot of urban problems and we are going in the direction of Bangkok," The article fails to mention THREE giant ring roads (2 of which have been completed) and new tunnels on the inner ring road to drive traffic and development away from the old town center. The complete municpal and provincial governments have already been moved way out near Mae Rim. Why would any jounalist not mention these efforts to preserve the old center, where indeed high-rises are not allowed. (hi-rise Rydges hotel being the odd one out, though it's techinically just outside the old city.

"getting ugly": Looking at old pictures of Chiang Mai, I think the moat area has never looked so beautiful as it does now, with actual pavements there, lighting, fountains, trees, etc, etc. Temples also completely look the same, and Chiang Mai has a shitload of them in the old city area.

"Anyone who comes looking for signs of a 700-year-old city is going to be very disappointed." Only if they are blind.

"But those arrivals were down 5.45 percent from 2002" --- SARS, 9/11, (end 2002!), Bali, war... Jesus..! .Is this for the high-school paper or something? At the VERY least a journalist has to show that this drop is higher compared to the rest of Thailand/Asia.

The thing is, I think too many journalists are looking for an 'angle', mostly a 'problem' and then just write an article around it. You could just as easily write a positive article on all the things that are happening to improve tourism (and quality of life, for that matter). Pick you angle and type away..

BTW, you suppose that 'well known travel writer' was Joe Cummings? I do recall the 'visually striking' phrase, but was it LP and in the Chiang Mai section? And he admits he hasn't updated the general blurb in 15 years. :-)

Also.. while tourism is important, it's not the ONLY thing that's important. For Thailand as a whole, the economy is centered far to heavily in Bangkok. For a more even spread, other regions will have to develop. You cannot develop an industry and services based regional economy if you only have some wooden houses and dirt roads. So. :-)

Cheers,

Chanchao

[iwan]

Every country needs a few Howard Deans.

The Howard Deans of Thailand is still very much work in progress, provided they are not sometimes gunned down while discharging their passionate duties.

The problem, as highlighted in "Can Asians think?" (Btw, Kishore Mahbubani's book is real. You can get it from Amazon or a certain bookstore in downtown Singapore), is that we forget that the Western formula is the product of a certain social karma, mental and otherwise, and progressive evolution. Though imperfect (e.g. 9/11, extreme capitalism, etc.), it works to a certain extend (civil society, metritocrecy, etc.). What is difficult is in trying to transplant that directly to an Asian country outright and expect results over night.

The slow boat out is to better the internal basics of human existence - food, a solid roof over one's head and education (in that order if i may), then overtime we can see the possibility of improvements in the external manifestation of greed, polution and what not.

[dighambara]

Guys,

Many great ideas and suggestions, but please remember that the US has been trying to clean itself up for over a century, with great thanks to Teddy Roosevelt. the Boy Scouts, and the NRA. Yes the gun people. They wanted hunting and fishing to remain unspoiled, so funded many, many environmental projects. Now, most western states have bans on billboards and wide scale development.

I will agree with the concept that the Thai Government doesn't seem to understand exactly why tourists come to Thailand. Like us, the tourists want to find the 'old' Thailand, not KFC......!

Michael Weldon

Udon Thani

[Ajarn]

I agree with about two things in that article, and one of them isn't in it:

1. The night safari project is a waste of money. How about promoting real nature and getting rid of the 200 baht entrance fee for tourists.

2. Building 4-5 5 new star hotels is a bit rediculous. I don't think Chiang Mai is has ever been a destination for high spending business and leisure travellers. Building hotels IMHO will not change that. Oh well, worst case scenario is that we're going to end up with 4-5 really nice all be it slightly run down mid-range hotels. :-))

The rest is like 'almost, but too superficial, resulting in being a waste of time reading the article'.

Like: "Already the pollution is terrible" is not a true statement. But it is an 'almost' kind of thing to write, because there definitely is an issue with air quality in the hot & dry season, where the valley location and burning the fields results in bad smog for about 2 months of the year. Outside of this period the air quality is excellent, no comparison at all to Bangkok. But yes there's an issue and efforts could be spent to reduce pollution during the hot & dry season.

"Chiang Mai has no buses and taxis" Well hello... Didn't they notice those red converted pick-ups all over the place? Or the Aircon bus # 10? Or that a meter taxi service is starting in the city? This makes this statement factually untrue. Granted, there aren't many meter taxis to be a viable service yet, but why would any journalist not mention the apparent efforts to get this started?

"Already the pollution is terrible, there are a lot of urban problems and we are going in the direction of Bangkok," The article fails to mention THREE giant ring roads (2 of which have been completed) and new tunnels on the inner ring road to drive traffic and development away from the old town center. The complete municpal and provincial governments have already been moved way out near Mae Rim. Why would any jounalist not mention these efforts to preserve the old center, where indeed high-rises are not allowed. (hi-rise Rydges hotel being the odd one out, though it's techinically just outside the old city.

"getting ugly": Looking at old pictures of Chiang Mai, I think the moat area has never looked so beautiful as it does now, with actual pavements there, lighting, fountains, trees, etc, etc. Temples also completely look the same, and Chiang Mai has a shitload of them in the old city area.

"Anyone who comes looking for signs of a 700-year-old city is going to be very disappointed." Only if they are blind.

"But those arrivals were down 5.45 percent from 2002"  --- SARS, 9/11, (end 2002!), Bali, war... Jesus..! .Is this for the high-school paper or something? At the VERY least a journalist has to show that this drop is higher compared to the rest of Thailand/Asia.

The thing is, I think too many journalists are looking for an 'angle', mostly a 'problem' and then just write an article around it. You could just as easily write a positive article on all the things that are happening to improve tourism (and quality of life, for that matter). Pick you angle and type away..

I agree. The article was mostly crap.

But, I feel the bad air pollution is easily more than 2 months per year, last year it was roughly from December to May, from my view. And last year was the worst in memory....Once the dry season starts, that's the end of blue sky to most of us living here until there's rain...

If the government simply enforced the laws on open fires, both in the forests and in our neighborhoods, I think most of the problems with air pollution would go away...

I will agree with the concept that the Thai Government doesn't seem to understand exactly why tourists come to Thailand. Like us, the tourists want to find the 'old' Thailand, not KFC......!

Personally, I want both

[cutethaigirl]

QUOTE 

I will agree with the concept that the Thai Government doesn't seem to understand exactly why tourists come to Thailand. Like us, the tourists want to find the 'old' Thailand, not KFC......!

Personally, I want both 

As dfo many Thais, Ajaarn.

Why do Westerners think that they should visit and country and see what THEY want to see rather than what the local people enjoy every day?

Is conceited arrogance the right words?

Mr Chanchao you make some very nice points too

It is not all doom and gloom.

Journalist visits CM.

Writes. 'Yes all very nice, just like last time'. At 2 Baht per word no profit?

All those 5 star hotels! Wow

[astral]

Zoning regulations and ecological statutes................?

In Thailand?

You must be joking.

Words like Zone and Ecology are not in the dictionary here.

The sooner they are the better

[goodguy]

Chiang Mai is a serious dissapointment for any unsuspecting visitor unlucky enough to include it in it's itinerary. Aggressive bothersome Taxis coloured Red, Low quality service, Double charging. Only good thing about Chiang Mai is the road to Doi Ithannon if one has the savvy to hire a car and get out of the dump.

Who would want to go to the Night Bazzar? They can buy every product cheaper in MBK without the hassle and the Tacky Indian Suit Salesmen lurking around.

It is like a second rate Sukhumvit.

[Ajarn]

Chiang Mai is a serious dissapointment for any unsuspecting visitor unlucky enough to include it in it's itinerary.  Aggressive bothersome Taxis coloured Red, Low quality service,  Double charging.  Only good thing about Chiang Mai is the road to Doi Ithannon if one has the savvy to hire a car and get out of the dump.

Who would want to go to the Night Bazzar?  They can buy every product cheaper in MBK without the hassle and the Tacky Indian Suit Salesmen lurking around. 

It is like a second rate Sukhumvit.

I wouldn't ask you to look at Chiang Mai through rose-coloured glasses, but at least not the shit-coloured ones...

There really is much more to Chiang Mai, even within the city. I hope you'll come back and chill some, and share a smile with some locals. You'll feel better, I'm sure .

I agree about MBK, though. What an amazing place to shop

[loveandlaughter]

There seems to always be ChiangMai going the the dogs stories though at the same time there is money being put up for improvements.

The new crossings.... I came home from Bali after three weeks away and there they were. At first it was more or less travel as usual, not so much action at the crossings, now the traffic does stop.

There are metered taxis....we took one from the airport home......there are also red and yellow songteaws which are in effect local buses.......there is perhaps coming some sort of tram or metro rail project.

Five Star hotels...... well there are quite a few little Bali style developments already......Tamarind Village.......good conversions.......the House....... and those ideas trickle down. If The Chedhi make something really nice other places copy.....accross the road from me for example there is a landscaped mini garden to brighten the side the old Anodard Hotel's cafe....... good ideas do catch on.

As for signs and billboards...... it's the latter that are too much..... and as that is bigger firms regulation should be easy enough.

Through our business here we meet a lot of visitors to Chiang Mai and they are not complaining. It's good to discuss and then to improve on stuff not to simply put everything down.

Some of the things that are posted such as buying a book "Can Asians think" are frankly insulting. The idea so kindly spread over hundreds of years that westerners know better is what has prompted developing countries to set their model of development as being Europe ( in the last centuries) and America now. While Vermont might be iddylic the US model is more likely to be Los Angeles.

Even in the UK there has been a lot of rethinking city architecture.... read Prince Charles writings and the various reactions to them. My home city of Manchester a drab industrial town with some grand Victoriana has over ten years remodelled itself to look very good and vibrant. We put back in a tram system, redid the public gardens completely, built and converted old buildings in the wake of the IRA bombing and the city feels completely different to in my youth.

I should think that Thailand can manage things the same way also. Bangkok mow has a skytrain and an underground. Metered taxis outnumber tuk tuks.

I do feel reading the postings that a lot of you put down the prospect of positive change. If evryone feels world weary and that life is only getting worse then it will do.

[TaxinMeter]

I read the thread and Chanchao has now made many of the points I was thinking of making.

The two topics here a health and asthetics.

As for health, the most prominent problem is air pollution. It seems that is made worse by the increasing number of cars that many are now able to afford because of the cheap loans provided by government banks and the populist schemes. But one of the main problems is in fact the old song taews (converted pick-up trucks used as taxis), some of which are more than 40 years old, twice as old as the 20 years quoted somewhere on this thread.

There have to be yearly exhaust checks, same for buses and all public transport vehicles. But more than half of the song taews on Chiang Mai's roads (about 3000 vehicles) are illegal, controlled by a mafia-like organization. The government has to take charge here and remove the illegal vehicles from the roads. This will also curb the rip-off of tourists.

Replacement of the engine, as some government officials suggest, won't work of course because how can you put a modern engine into a 20 or 40-year-old car?

Change here will be slow, tuk-tuks were to be outlawed in Bangkok 30 years ago for their noise and pollution, and are still accepted today, seemingly because of their "tourism value".

On the other hand, newer cars are better and cleaner than old ones, so the economic recovery has clear benefits here. I remember 30 years ago in Germany everyone was talking about pollution of the air and rivers. Today these problems have largely been solved due to increased wealth and technological development, and even though now we have 0.7 cars per head of the population, air pollution is not a problem any more. The same development can be seen in most other countries including Korea (staggering improvements over the last decade or so) and Japan, and eventually it will be so in Thailand. The air pollutions is worst in developing countries with an outdated vehicle stock like Indonesia, the Philippines, China, India etc. In Thailand private car ownership should be more regulated with higher fuel taxes and less incentives for overpowered pick-up trucks.

The burning of leaves, twigs and household garbage is already illegal in Chiang Mai and I feel the situation has gotten better over the last few years. Because of its valley location Chiang Mai's air will always be polluted during some months of the hot season when there is little or no wind.

The government has to be commended for building ring roads to keep traffic further from the city. This is now done with expensive underpasses which the government was unable to afford even a few years ago, which led to the monstrosity at the airport plaza, sadly the first impression many tourists get of Chiang Mai. So it seems development is not cause of problems, poverty and lack of funds are.

The opposite is true for asthetics. These days everyone with a piece of land gets money thrown after him by certain government-owned banks, to boost the re-election chances of TRT. Everyone builds cheap condo and apartment buildings as well as shop houses. Of course wood is too expensive because there are no sustainable teak forests (the only sustainable teak plantations alive today were founded by the Dutch in Indonesia 150 years ago, far from the native land of teak which is here).

The cheap junk that is built now gets unsightly within a few years because of the climate, cheap paints and materials etc. And because of the oversupply, none of these projects is feasible so there is no money to repaint and renovate. Here the mistakes of the last fake "boom" are certainly repeated and a book title quoted above certainly asks the right question. Even the ad signs are ok if they cover these concrete eyesores.

Still, there are many quaint neighborhoods left in Chiang Mai because people have not been greedy and did not sell out to speculators. High rise buildings can't be erected near temples or the river. There are no high-rise buildings within the city moat so this regulation seems to be enforced rather well. A recent goverment project to build a high-rise near the river drew a lot of flak from native Chiang Mai NGOs like Rak Chiang Mai. Public awareness is on the rise in these matters. So are the NPLs at Krung Thai Bank so money won't be that easy in the future.

Chiang Mai will continue to suffer from being a natural alternative to Bangkok and the only other city in Thailand with a reasonable infrastructure. The city will certainly grow but I believe the current boom cycle is already peaking and the next one is far off.

[Ajarn]

The burning of leaves, twigs and household garbage is already illegal in Chiang Mai and I feel the situation has gotten better over the last few years

Gawd, I wish I could agree

[Foggy Bottom]

Chiang Mai is a serious dissapointment for any unsuspecting visitor unlucky enough to include it in it's itinerary.  Aggressive bothersome Taxis coloured Red, Low quality service,  Double charging.  Only good thing about Chiang Mai is the road to Doi Ithannon if one has the savvy to hire a car and get out of the dump.

Who would want to go to the Night Bazzar?  They can buy every product cheaper in MBK without the hassle and the Tacky Indian Suit Salesmen lurking around. 

It is like a second rate Sukhumvit.

I wouldn't ask you to look at Chiang Mai through rose-coloured glasses, but at least not the shit-coloured ones...

There really is much more to Chiang Mai, even within the city. I hope you'll come back and chill some, and share a smile with some locals. You'll feel better, I'm sure .

I agree about MBK, though. What an amazing place to shop

Are you sure about MBK being cheaper?

Silk scarves that I sell on eBay, I buy in Chiangmai for 60 baht, but was quoted 180 in MBK in April

Mangowood decorative chopsticks that I buy for 5 baht a pair were 45 baht a pair in MBK

Boxed sets of incense and ash catchers that I assemble from 3 suppliers (box / incense /ceramic) for under 30 baht a set were 200 baht in MBK

These are just a few of the examples, perhaps the best one was the stonecast (specialist plaster) bas relief temple imagery that I buy here for 12 baht a pop (often seen in the night bazaar at 50 - 200 baht each, were over 450 baht in MBK

Generally speaking whatever I sell on eBay has lower closing prices than those in MBK - loads of UK and US shop holders and market traders now buy from me instead of wholesalers in those countries - it's cheaper for them (even through eBay) and they know that I take more care in sifting out the less attractive pieces to get the best quality of each item.

There is no way in any country I've ever been to, that a capital city is cheaper for hand crafted goods than one of its far flung provincial cities - this is a universal phenomenon not restricted to Thailand.

There will be some things cheaper in MBK than up here - those made in the south for example, because Bangkok is midway between the two centres of production. Also, clothing from the Bangkok factories should be cheaper there, but I've often found that's not true due to the rent differentials and the cost of salaries etc. If people couldn't get higher salaries in the capital, why would so many gravitate in that direction? Anything made in the north will almost certainly be cheaper here than there due to lower transportation, rents, salaries etc.

In this case - I'm arguing from my own experience of both MBK and CM Night Bazaar. Finally - remember another factor - MBK is for natives, Night Bazaar is for tourists. And you know what that means

[Ajarn]

Chiang Mai is a serious dissapointment for any unsuspecting visitor unlucky enough to include it in it's itinerary.  Aggressive bothersome Taxis coloured Red, Low quality service,  Double charging.  Only good thing about Chiang Mai is the road to Doi Ithannon if one has the savvy to hire a car and get out of the dump.

Who would want to go to the Night Bazzar?  They can buy every product cheaper in MBK without the hassle and the Tacky Indian Suit Salesmen lurking around. 

It is like a second rate Sukhumvit.

I wouldn't ask you to look at Chiang Mai through rose-coloured glasses, but at least not the shit-coloured ones...

There really is much more to Chiang Mai, even within the city. I hope you'll come back and chill some, and share a smile with some locals. You'll feel better, I'm sure .

I agree about MBK, though. What an amazing place to shop

Are you sure about MBK being cheaper?

Silk scarves that I sell on eBay, I buy in Chiangmai for 60 baht, but was quoted 180 in MBK in April

Mangowood decorative chopsticks that I buy for 5 baht a pair were 45 baht a pair in MBK

Boxed sets of incense and ash catchers that I assemble from 3 suppliers (box / incense /ceramic) for under 30 baht a set were 200 baht in MBK

These are just a few of the examples, perhaps the best one was the stonecast (specialist plaster) bas relief temple imagery that I buy here for 12 baht a pop (often seen in the night bazaar at 50 - 200 baht each, were over 450 baht in MBK

Generally speaking whatever I sell on eBay has lower closing prices than those in MBK - loads of UK and US shop holders and market traders now buy from me instead of wholesalers in those countries - it's cheaper for them (even through eBay) and they know that I take more care in sifting out the less attractive pieces to get the best quality of each item.

There is no way in any country I've ever been to, that a capital city is cheaper for hand crafted goods than one of its far flung provincial cities - this is a universal phenomenon not restricted to Thailand.

There will be some things cheaper in MBK than up here - those made in the south for example, because Bangkok is midway between the two centres of production. Also, clothing from the Bangkok factories should be cheaper there, but I've often found that's not true due to the rent differentials and the cost of salaries etc. If people couldn't get higher salaries in the capital, why would so many gravitate in that direction? Anything made in the north will almost certainly be cheaper here than there due to lower transportation, rents, salaries etc.

In this case - I'm arguing from my own experience of both MBK and CM Night Bazaar. Finally - remember another factor - MBK is for natives, Night Bazaar is for tourists. And you know what that means

Sorry, I wasn't trying to put a crimp in your business... Frankly, I wasn't thinking of prices so much as selection (andI was stretching for something I could agree with that poster on... ). From experience, I've found that when trying to find something, MBK has almost everything, it seems.

Since many MBK shops will dicker prices, 'first quotes' are not always reasonable (but good for quoting to overseas customers as comparison to your prices? ). Real prices can depend on your bargaining skills or the desperation on the seller....I bought a large 'elephant hide' travel bag there for 1400 baht, when the exact same bag was at least 2500 in any other store or market where I'd priced them earlier, both at Patpong and a couple of places in CM. Anyway, I used to like cruising around in there...

Can you make your living off selling Thai stuff on EBay?

[Maejo Man]

The facts are that the Chiang Mai landscape has changed very little in the last ten years, there is more pollution in London, New York and Paris than in Chiang Mai and that the only major changes are better improved roads, freeways and communication systems, internet, phone and satellite TV.

Of course you are joking or have been walking around with blinkers on for the last ten years. The facts are Chiangmai rural area has changed dramatically, once where there were beautiful rice fields and plentiful palms, we now see new moo bahns, and outer ring roads. You should have been there when Chiangmai was a beautiful city, but that's the problem with all the newbies. Sad fact

What's "better improved roads" when it's at home?

[Foggy Bottom]

The facts are that the Chiang Mai landscape has changed very little in the last ten years, there is more pollution in London, New York and Paris than in Chiang Mai and that the only major changes are better improved roads, freeways and communication systems, internet, phone and satellite TV.

Of course you are joking or have been walking around with blinkers on for the last ten years. The facts are Chiangmai rural area has changed dramatically, once where there were beautiful rice fields and plentiful palms, we now see new moo bahns, and outer ring roads. You should have been there when Chiangmai was a beautiful city, but that's the problem with all the newbies. Sad fact

What's "better improved roads" when it's at home?

Have to agree with Maejo

Ignoring temporary effects like the ploughed field that used to be Thapae Road, or the ankle snapping rotating cobbles on Ratchadumnoern Road, there are many losses in Chiangmai - here a few of them -

Loi Kroh Road - 100 metres up from the moat on the right are a small row of single storey concrete shops with two large concrete houses behind them - four years ago, that was a large compound with a traditional wooden Lanna mansion in it.

just down hill from the irrigation canal between Huay Kaew and Suthep roads, and uphill from Nimmenhaemin used to be a faily open area of normal houses (mixed styles) but has now become a constant construction site for high rise condos and dormitories.

Airport Plaza has doubled in size, and the flyover has been added (despite public protest) creating a lost corner of Bangkok. The fact that barely a hundred vehicles an hour use it for 22 hours a day testifies to what a huge waste of money this eyesore really is.

Behind Wat Morecome Tuang (on the north moat's Sriphum Road, just west of Chang Puak Gate) a four storey bright blue dormitory block has been built where there used to be a compound of six or seven traditional wooden houses on stilts. The greenery and gardens there have all been concreted over.

The once green and leafy road from Jaeng Sriphum out to Kham Tieng market has become4 a 6-lane dustbowl of a highway, and the open marsh land either side of it is being built over with used car lots.

If I sat and thought about it with a map in front of me, I could probably name over 100 such instances from the last 3-4 years without need to go further back in time.

The greenery in Chiangmai is disappearing faster than from a cloud of locusts, and the non-concreted rain absorbtion areas are being paved at an alarming rate - all of which will lead to problems each rainy season, and to recirculating dust problems in the dry season - trees and shrubbery not only suck up ground water (reducing flood effects) but also trap airborne dust on their leaves, which is then washed to the ground when it rains where it becomes part of the surface soil. Too much horizontal concrete loses both of these benefits.

Guide books used to describe Chiangmai as a city of traditional wooden houses and green leafy lanes - it is no longer in that category, which is why National Geographic now term it as getting ugly. It may never have the coal dust pollution problems of Chinese cities, but then they don't have the type of airborne dust problems we have here - different climates, different problems - both need to address them appropriately.

[Foggy Bottom]

Can you make your living off selling Thai stuff on EBay?

It is possible, but you cannot rely on eBay alone (due to their fee levels) you also need to make use of free sites such as -

www.ebid.co.uk (UK)

www.trademe.co.nz (New Zealand)

and others

A lot depends on what you sell - rather than write a long post - see -

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/2004/aug...n_retailing.php

That article will give you a good basic intro.

Gaz

[dman]

Nice description of The Peoples Republic of Vermont

[RDN]

Zoning regulations and ecological statutes................?

In Thailand?

You must be joking.

Words like Zone and Ecology are not in the dictionary here.

The sooner they are the better

Actually,astral, it was "mtnthai" who mentioned 'zoning and ecological statutes', not me, on Wed 2004-07-28, 18:55:02. Your editing went a bit wrong

But I agree with him: zoning is desperately needed, and public meetings have been held here, in Phuket.

I've just read this thread again, and just about everything that needs to be said has been said. Just one point I would like to make: you could substitue "Phuket" for "Chiang Mai" in a lot of these posts. Maybe the problem is in every Thai tourist destination, not just in CM. Very sad for Thailand, but if that's what they want, what can we do?

If my girlfriend is an example of typical Thai thinking, then we should never 'tell' them what to do, but maybe show them examples of other places where tourism is well managed, and let the Thais come to their own decisions to do what we want them to do.

[Maejo Man]

The facts are that the Chiang Mai landscape has changed very little in the last ten years

Of course you are joking or have been walking around with blinkers on for the last ten years.

Have to agree with Maejo

Ignoring temporary effects like the ploughed field that used to be Thapae Road, or the ankle snapping rotating cobbles on Ratchadumnoern Road, there are many losses in Chiangmai - here a few of them -

Loi Kroh Road - 100 metres up from the moat on the right are a small row of single storey concrete shops with two large concrete houses behind them - four years ago, that was a large compound with a traditional wooden Lanna mansion in it.

The once green and leafy road from Jaeng Sriphum out to Kham Tieng market has become4 a 6-lane dustbowl of a highway, and the open marsh land either side of it is being built over with used car lots.

If I sat and thought about it with a map in front of me, I could probably name over 100 such instances from the last 3-4 years without need to go further back in time.

Spot on Gaz, you actually took the time to list a few, and are to be applauded. The sad fact is that was only the tip of the iceberg.

It's not till you are in a traffic jam, or even walking, that you tend to look around and think to yourself....Gosh, I wonder when they demolished that? Even the rather quaint area around Faham on the edge of the river is getting concrete overtones. The price for so called progress I guess.

[mtnthai]

Nice description of The Peoples Republic of Vermont

It is hard for me to decern what the intent of your post is, but I think it is sarcasm.

Be that as it may, fact is Vermont was a Republic and a selfsufficent one, before joing the Union. Yet all decisions were and still are made at Town Meetings, Zoning Meetings and caucuses, and anyone may participate and vote. Not at all like a “People’s Republic…” (see below)

Vermont still is a state of independent thinkers and community activists. You could never find a better example of a populace that is for the inclussion and betterment of all. Proof of this is the fact that it has become one of the most desireable places to live within America (similar to Alaka, Hawaii, Washington and Oregon), property values are stable and continue to rise and (back to the main thread here) it is still pristine and habitable. Just to mention a few of the benefits.

History and Philosophical Background of the Vermont Republic

In 1777, in the midst of the revolutionary turmoil of colonial America, a small tract of land, claimed by all its neighbors, declared itself an independent republic capable of regulating all internal affairs. For fourteen years, the people of Vermont stood alone against the world controlled by its powerful neighbors as a beacon of freedom. Indeed, their constitution was among the first in the world to ban the practice of human slavery. Finally, it submitted to the terms of statehood under severe pressure from the Continental Congress. The Vermont Republic was no more.

In the words of a great Vermont patriot, who was a driving force in the fight for independence and came to the aid of Georg Washington when he most needed it and the situation was dire:

"DON"T TREAD ON ME"

-Ethan Allen -

Leader of the Green Mountain Boys

They needed no Patriot Act, they were True Patriots acting of there own free will for the good of the whole. And, still do to this day!!!.

[Ned]

It's all too late for Thailand. The entire country has been trashed beyond repair. Those of us who were lucky enough to have spent a lot of time here in the early 70s and beyond know the extent of the environmental destruction which has taken place. Development of factories and shops etc will extend in the not too distant future way out to Jom Thong in the SW and similar distances in all directions. A decent public transport sysytem is decades away if ever. Proper garbage collection services to the villages is not on the cards and the dumping of hazardous wastes will only increase as industrial production grows. Villagers will continue their nightly burns of plastic and orchard waste.The air pollution here in the cool season is a killer. The trashing of the city will intensify with no end in sight.

[Foggy Bottom]

I think part of the problem is lack of consideration of what is enough - in the case of the point I want to make - thinking that because one facility exists, it is enough, when clearly it is not.

Looking at public transport - both Worarot Market and Chang Puak Bus Terminus have terminii for "countryside" songthaew services - Worarot is supposed to cover eastward journeys out to Doi Saket, San Kampaeng etc. and Chang Puak is supposed to cover northward journeys - Mae Rim through to Fang etc.

Over the years, as the mini buses (especially suicidal air con mini buses) have shouldered into the market, there has become an overlap so that now Worarot provides songthaews out to Mae Rim & the Mae Sa Valley, Chang Puak provides mini buses to Lamphun and beyond. There is becoming less space for the normal (full size) buses to service the further destinations such as Chiang Rai and Hot. So much so that Arcade is taking some of that business - Arcade was built to service the long haul buses to the central plains, Issaan etc.

Chiangmai needs another songthaew/minibus/provincial route bus terminus to the south edge of the city - perhaps around Airport Plaza, or the Haiya / Chiangmailand area - it could then cover the southern routes and reduce the through-city / cross-city traffic caused by these vehicles leaving from Worarot or Chang Puak, both of which could then return to their originally planned routings.

Linking the three would then be needed a shuttle bus service which could double as a commuter bus service on fixed (circular) routes.

I have no idea of the exact amount of traffic this would reduce, but I expect it would be significant, it would also lead to some revitalisation of the area where the southern terminus was placed, and provided it was somewhere along the Mahidol Road, would not have a major impact on residental roads and sois. Restricting the long haul songthaews to suburban routes would also improve the city centre air quality if new large passenger capacity midi-buses were used for the shuttle service - or even electric buses such as the school service that has been trialled in CMU and other selected areas.

Or is all this too logical for Chiangmai and Thailand?

[RDN]

I think part of the problem is lack of consideration of what is enough.....or is all this too logical for Chiangmai and Thailand?

Thailand? Logical? But at the same time: Can't find a 'smiley' with tears...

[Johpa]

It's all too late for Thailand. The entire country has been trashed beyond repair..

Not at all, the entire country is not ruined altough all parts have seen some change. Sure, the major Provincial capitols have moderninzed and the newly created suburbs of the major cities like Chiang Mai have replaced traditional villages and rice fields a la Bangkok. But go off the well tread path a bit and, voila, old time Thailand is still out there. I went on a motobike ride along with my son and some village kids and we dropped down into the Samoeng Valley through a back road, north of Samoeng, and there was old Khon Muang Thailand in all its laid back glory down in that somewhat isolated valley. Sure, even there, changes are visible from 20 years ago: Tambon offices are new, there are public telephones available, and the main road was paved. But most houses were traditional wood structures, the populace was busy planting rice, old women walked around with hand rolled cheroots drooping from their lips, and some of the men were still strolling about wearing pakamas (the tradition I personally miss the most as the boss gets very angry these days when I walk outside wearing a pakamaa). For the most part it looked just like Chiang Mai did over 20 years ago from the intersection of Chotana and the Super up to Thaton when for all intents, the Thai road ended at the bridge.

[Foggy Bottom]

I went on a motobike ride along with my son and some village kids and we dropped down into the Samoeng Valley through a back road, north of Samoeng, and there was old Khon Muang Thailand in all its laid back glory down in that somewhat isolated valley.

As my old chemistry professor used to say daily, "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing"

If you were in the Samoeng Valley, you would be highly unlikely to find 'Khon Muang' - from the time when they were still scrapping with the Han Chinese before Nanchao was established and before the name SipSongPanNa was thought of, the 'Khon Muang' were lowland city dwellers, and still are today according to the Hill Tribes Research Centre at CMU.

However, I know what you're inferring - you can get out of the city and still see traditional rural Tai and Thai life and culture - as you can from the train window pretty much all the way to Bangkok. We, city-dwelling, farangs often slip into the faults of the ruling elite and start to think that the city centre cultures we encounter daily, are the "norm" for the entire Kingdom, and that clearly is not true - even watching contemporary drama on Thai TV channels will reveal that.

Many thanks for bringing that perspective back into view.

[Johpa]

If you were in the Samoeng Valley, you would be highly unlikely to find 'Khon Muang' - from the time when they were still scrapping with the Han Chinese before Nanchao was established and before the name SipSongPanNa was thought of, the 'Khon Muang' were lowland city dwellers, and still are today according to the Hill Tribes Research Centre at CMU.

The people in the Samoeng valley, and I am talking down in the valley, all speak Kham Muang, are lowland folks planting padi rice, eat sticky rice and raw meat dishes, and so I assume they are included in the definition of Khon Muang, which to the best of my knowledge does not include city dwelling. Methinks the folks you spoke to at the Hill Tribes Research Centre at CMU are in a bit of an error.

Now as I said, me and the kids dropped down into the valley on a back road from atop the hills and half the kids I was with, their mother's tongue (including my son) was not Kham Muang but Karen, and the other half, their grandparent's langauge was K'mu.

If you take the Samoeng valley heading north to meet up with the road to Pai, the folks in the lowland valley are most definitely Khon Muang, but if you take any of the side roads up into the hills you will meet not only Khon Muang, most of whom are families recently assimlated to Khon Muanghood, but also hilltribe groups such as Karen and Mong.

Going back to our motorbike trip, the funniest thing was bringing six young boys to the Pong Kwaow hot springs where they wanted 150 baat to bathe and you could not usually pay any of these kids 150 baat to bathe.

[wpbr]

No pollution? What a joke!

We spent three weeks in Chiang Mai Dec 03 Jan 04, and could never see Doi Suthep.

But came to live in this vibrant city anyway.