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snowleopard

Passive Voice Construction In Thai

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"Could it be that the unpleasant nature of Thai passives have poisoned the debate courtesy...?"

I fear not. Snowleopard dislikes something about me. Recall his comments about me in Swedish. I was surprised when he explicitly invited me to comment on whether the apparent transform NP1 VP NP2 to NP2 VP with no other marking formed a passive.

I'm inclined to wonder if 'valency theory' has something useful to say on the topic. However, my knowledge on it is very limted, and you are one of the few who might know something useful from the theory. Therefore I've kept to traditional terminology, though I worry about it's applicability to Thai.

As to traditional terminology, I'm sure I read somewhere that there was a project to determine what the parts of speech are in Thai. Perhaps it is just fiddling with the classifications, but perhaps there is some genuine doubt. What, for example are the adjectives? It's claimed that all languages have adjectives, but even someone making the claim admitted that one language had no more than ten - it may even have had only four adjectives!

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(Richard W @ Fri 2004-08-20, 03:23:09)

Can't you do selective quoting?  No-one else is joining in in this ding-dong.

(Richard W @ Thu 2004-08-19, 01:58:55)

4. Do you at least admit that แตก can't be used as a transitive verb in the active voice?

Still unanswered!

(snowleopard @ Thu 2004-08-19, 16:18:12)

I'm gonna smoke you out of your hole in the ground ,you cagey little foxy you! 

Richard W @ So this is not a pursuit of the truth?

snowleopard @Take a good look at these two easily comprehensible examples,which are both using the transitive verb แตก "dtaek"!

1.ถังขยะแตกโดยคนขี้เมา="taang-kaya dtaek doy kon-kee-maow"=The trash-can was cracked by a drunkard.

2.แจกันดอกไม้แตกโดยแมว="jae-gun dohk-mai dtaek doy maew"=The flower pot was broken by cats.

Richard W @Actually, the verb's intransitive in these sentences.

 

snowleopard @The judge's Question to Richard: แจกันดอกไม้แตกได้อย่างไร "jae-gun dok-mai dtaek dai yaang-rai"?=How was the flower pot cracked?

Richard's Answer:มันแตกเอง "mun dtaek aeyng"=It  was cracked by itself! 

Richard W @

Falsifying the court record? Tut tut! You don't want to go the way of Lord Archer, do you?

คิดว่าแมวทำให้ตกแล้วก็แตกครับ

snowleopard @ 

Let's hope the judge ain't no "crackpot" so you can  receive more than one good sentence from him. 

At this stage I'd be inclined to ask for your case to be dismissed and costs awarded against you.

the way of Lord Archer

Lord Archer :o

Your pride and role model Richard,peer Lord Archer,the pinnacle of success who is the product of your English peer system.The quintessential John Bull.

"First Among Equals"! :D

So here you are once again my little lad_cap in hand-begging for another good spanking from your master.

Some of you English whipping boys never seem to break away from your mental bondage_the vicious circle of being the passively receiving masochist in your sadomasochistic rituals.Those rituals of subjugation which you have been conditioned into enduring ever since you were victimized during childhood.

Is your latent-...hmm...let's say...err-only... behavior,the downside of the English boarding school system for boys,class society and cruel corporal punishment, meted out by the ruling masters and mistresses?

You and peers have to unsuccessfully act out your childhood trauma in perpetuity,don't you?

Observing your behavior and then extrapolating from that the suffering you've endured,this Thai proverb comes to mind:"รักวัวให้ผูกรักลูกให็ตี" Keep a stiff upper lip now old fellow,like your heroic peer his lordship himself could do all throughout his tribulation!

4. Do you at least admit that แตก can't be used as a transitive verb in the active voice?Still unanswered!
Unanswered only in your lost mind Richard!You're not all there,are you? :wub:

You're just trying to impose your own arbitrary parameters on the transitive verb "dtaek",with leading question because you've got vested intrests and a dishonest agenda in this issue.Your agenda is to prove that "dtaek" is only intransitive,just because you want it to be so and have declared that it should be so!

You first claimed that "dtaek" is only intransitive and now you are backing away from that statement.Your tactics consist of passively hiding behind yet another smoke screen and then gainsaying everything I actively state without backing it up with proof.

You have never introduced any sentences in Thai yourself Ricky;but rather you've passively taken some potshot from your foxhole at my examples in a cowardly fashion.Never mind though;I've got a degree in psychiatry and have worked with your personality type before so I've already called your hand and know where you come from!

Because of your Anglo-Saxon background,your mind has been brainwashed and indoctrinated into projecting the ingrained English language structures onto other languages in an attempt at making them comprehensible to yourself.

Verbs in Thai and English are used differently.

In Thai you can join a whole string of verbs together without having to worry about tense,infinitives and such.

For example, if the "food part" is understood then this verb phrase could be stringed together and used,ไปซื้อกิน "pai seu gin"=go buy eat!

ถูกแตก "toohk dtaek" is okay and ถูกหัก "toohk huck" is okay too because both are transitive verbs.

You can also say มันแตกเองภายใน,ทำให้แตก,ทำแตก,แตกเอง,หัก,แตกหัก,ตกแตก,ชนแคก, แตกใบ,แตกแยกแตกปลี,แตกฉานซ่านเซ็น etc.

แตก,itself,is a transitive verb,and,for example แตกกระเจิง is too!

 

คิดว่าแมวทำให้ตกแล้วก็แตกครับ This post has been edited by Richard W on Fri 2004-08-20, 14:16:43

Your sentence became more and more moronic each time you came back to edit it in order for it to fit your deceptive agenda!Here's some Thai for you.

หลักฐานมีเพิ่มต่ออีกไหมครับ เสือดาวและผู้พิพากษาตัดสินคดีทั้งสองนายเข้าใจว่าเธอพยายามที่จะทำให้แมวเป็นผู้รับเคราะห์แท่น ผมเสือดาวเป็นทนายความของแมวในคดีการฟ้องร้องเรื่องนี้จึงจะช่วยเแมวเต็มทีไม่เป็นแพะรับบาปจากเธอในคดีนี้เลย ที่สามารถเห็นได้อย่างชัดเจนเนื่องจากสีบสวนหลักฐานโดยรายละเอียดคือว่า...ผู้ร้ายตัวที่ทำผิดไวยากรณ์ภาษาไทยข็อกรรมวาจก ก็มันเป็นเธอเอง Richard W! :D

 

Richard W Posted on Mon 2004-08-16, 05:07:57 I withdraw the claim that หัก is not transitive.

The verb I should have quoted is แตก, which is not actually a synonym of หัก.

 

So this is not a pursuit of the truth?

In the eternal quest for the truth,one is bound to raise a few eyebrows,step on a few toes,butt heads and much worse-and in that process a few pevaricators,like yourself,are bound to get their share of hurt.

By you foxy dude Rick,the truth might even be declared "sour grapes".

Keep a stiff upper lip like your peer Archer now.

 

snowleopard Posted on Thu 2004-08-19, 22:18:12 Take a good look at these two easily comprehensible examples,which are both using the transitive verb แตก "dtaek"!

1.ถังขยะแตกโดยคนขี้เมา="taang-kaya dtaek doy kon-kee-maow"=The trash-can was cracked by a drunkard.

2.แจกันดอกไม้แตกโดยแมว="jae-gun dohk-mai dtaek doy maew"=The flower pot was broken by cats.

 

Richard W Posted on Fri 2004-08-20, 03:23:09 Actually, the verb's intransitive in these sentences.

Now,do you have anything to back that up with Ricky,except having been told so by your Anglican mommy?You both spoke Thai as your mother tongue now,didn't you?

I'm pursuing the truth Richard and I'm trying to do you a favor by pointing it out for you and enlighten you as well.

'Dtaek" is transitive and intransitive.Hope that information will penetrate your thick skull and lodge in your brain soon.

If you don't wanna believe me,then just look the verb "dtaek" up on your own,right there in your own Thai dictionary.You will find out that it is both transitive and intransitive,like I've truthfully taught you.

Checked it out yet?

Still not convinced and converted to the truth?_then please push back the chair in front of your computer and stand up_now walk over to the bookcase and pull out your English dictionary_look up the letter H and then proceed to the noun "hypocrite"_now,pronounce it out loudly and clearly while simultaneously looking at yourself in the mirror_suck slowly and hard on every single syllable-Hy-Po-criTe_look at the definition_and,VOILA_now you've found the most fitting label for describing yourself Ricky. :D

This label will stick to your cyber persona like glue till you redeem yourself by accepting the truth.

By the way,the Thai word for your epithet would be ผู้เสแสร้ง "pooh sae-saeng"!

Lord Archer and Richard W,indeed a pride of peers! :D

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

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4. Do you at least admit that แตก can't be used as a transitive verb in the active voice?Still unanswered!
Unanswered only in your lost mind Richard!

So I take it that this means that you are in denial. :D

You have never introduced any sentences in Thai yourself.
Do you expect me to produce examples of a usage I don't believe exists? :o
ถูกแตก "toohk dtaek" is okay and ถูกหัก "toohk huck" is okay too because both are transitive verbs.

A google search found only 4 examples of ถูกแตก. I give the URLs, but I don't recommend clicking on them directly; indeed, several are only accessible via the Google cache.

  • As a keyword in a list of search topics - apparently one request. The URL begins http://www.songtoday.com/cgi-bin/nph-proxy.cgi/010110A/ .
  • จาก : ถูกแดก - 04/09/2002 14:35 at http://board.dserver.org/h/hopefulness/00000149.html. This appears to be an example of the meaning 'sprout (tr., intr.), burst out', related to the intransitive meaning 'break'.
  • 29 ถูกแดก ตามเคย ฮ่าๆ at http://it06.hypermart.net/cgi-bin/webboard/question.pl?1024This looks like another list of web searches, and the meaning again seems to be roughly 'sprout'.
  • From http://sirisuk.diaryhub.net/?20021001, I found:
    โทรไปหาแม่ บอกว่าวันนี้ ได้หวยมา
    26 95 14 แม่เราเลยซัดซะ ตัวละ 200 ถูกแดก เรียบ
    แม่เล่าให้ฟังว่าขณะที่แม่จดหวยอยู่นั้น
    มีตำรวจ นอกเครื่องแบบ เข้ามา จับแม่
    ตกใจ มือเย็น ตีนเย็นกันใหญ่
    แต่สุดท้ายก็พูดไกล่เกลี่ย และตำรวจ ก็ผละออกไป
    เฮ้ออออ....โดน อีกแล้ว
    I find this difficult to make sense of - this might just be the example Snowleopard needs, but I don't think so. Could someone please provide an intelligible and word-for-word understandable translation of the sentence containing 'ถูกแดก'.

If you don't wanna believe me,then just look the verb "dtaek" up on your own,right there in your own Thai dictionary.You will find out that it is both transitive and intransitive,like I've truthfully taught you.

From my Thai-English dictionary, it appears to be intransitive only.  I did wonder about what appeared to be some set expressions, but consulting the Royal Institute Dictionary (on-line version) clarified them.  แตก has a related meaning 'sprout, break/burst out in/with', and this can be transitive, but not in the sense 'cause to break'.  In the other senses, 'break, scatter', it is intransitive.

Checked it out yet?

I had already checked it out in my Thai-English dictionary. In response to your question, I then checked the RID.

Unless the quality of the argument improves, I will have to abandon this thread because of the increasing rudeness. It would not do for one of us to be banned or suspended.

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Take a good look at these two easily comprehensible examples,which are both using the transitive verb แตก "dtaek"!

1.ถังขยะแตกโดยคนขี้เมา="taang-kaya dtaek doy kon-kee-maow"=The trash-can was cracked by a drunkard.

2.แจกันดอกไม้แตกโดยแมว="jae-gun dohk-mai dtaek doy maew"=The flower pot was broken by cats.

Actually, the verb's intransitive in these sentences.

Now,do you have anything to back that up with...?

Yes.

พวกเขาไปโรงเรียนโดยรถประจำทาง=[F]phuak[H]khao [M]pai [M]roong[M]rian [M]dooy [H]rot [M/L]pra[M]jam[M]thaang=They are taken to school by a bus.

By your argument, this shows that ไป [M]pai 'to take (tr.), go (intr.)' is a transitive verb as well as an intransitive verb. :o (Perhaps it actually has two direct objects - the second would be the destination - making it ditransitive / transitive!)

Because of your Anglo-Saxon background,your mind has been brainwashed and indoctrinated into projecting the ingrained English language structures onto other languages in an attempt at making them comprehensible to yourself.

Verbs in Thai and English are used differently.

Pots and kettles?

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Unless the quality of the argument improves, I will have to abandon this thread because of the increasing rudeness. It would not do for one of us to be banned or suspended

I don't think that will happen as you two are probably the only ones left that actually understand what you are talking about :D:D

(oh mabye sabijai and swedish as well)

Is this the most polite and techincal "flame war" in thaivisa history?? :D

Sorry guy's for taking the p!ss, I had'nt read this thread form about page 2 until last night, cos you lost me about then.

Brilliant keep it up

Anyway I agree with snowy, cos he's clever and funnier :o:wub::D

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Take a good look at these two easily comprehensible examples,which are both using the transitive verb แตก "dtaek"!

1.ถังขยะแตกโดยคนขี้เมา="taang-kaya dtaek doy kon-kee-maow"=The trash-can was cracked by a drunkard.

2.แจกันดอกไม้แตกโดยแมว="jae-gun dohk-mai dtaek doy maew"=The flower pot was broken by cats.

Actually, the verb's intransitive in these sentences.

Now,do you have anything to back that up with...?

Yes.

พวกเขาไปโรงเรียนโดยรถประจำทาง=[F]phuak[H]khao [M]pai [M]roong[M]rian [M]dooy [H]rot [M/L]pra[M]jam[M]thaang=They are taken to school by a bus.

By your argument, this shows that ไป [M]pai 'to take (tr.), go (intr.)' is a transitive verb as well as an intransitive verb. -_- (Perhaps it actually has two direct objects - the second would be the destination - making it ditransitive / transitive!)

พวกเขาไปโรงเรียนโดยรถประจำทาง=[F]phuak[H]khao [M]pai [M]roong[M]rian [M]dooy [H]rot [M/L]pra[M]jam[M]thaang=They are taken to school by a bus.
พวกเขาไปโรงเรียนโดยรถประจำทาง
You're an amusing clown,aren't you Ricky!Who are you kidding with this pathetic little charade? :D Yourself? :(

The English verb"go" is intransitive so you can't use that to compare with the transitive verb "break".

The translation you used from Thai to English is so silly that it just reinforces the impression that you're a clueless clown who's just winging it while fumbling along in ignorant darkness.

I'll give you the real translation for free but don't try to say again that your confusion is my argument because everyone can see you're prevaricating and then projecting your lies onto me as usual.

The verbs "GO" and "TAKE" are no synonyms!The former "go" is an intransitive verb while the latter "take" is a transitive one.

With the above translation,you're trying one of your dishonest tricks by spreading disinformation again Richard.

Here's the honest translation:

พวกเขาไปโรงเรียนโดยรถประจำทาง=They go to school by bus.(poo-ak kaow pai rong-ree-an doi rot-pra-jahm-taang)

Go "pai" is intransitive in both Thai and English.

Now look what can be done with your sentence if the transitive-ส่ง "song"-"SEND" is used instead of "go".

A passive voice sentence can be used in Thai with or without ถูก "toohk".

In other words either ส่ง "song";or,ถูกส่ง "toohk song".

Look at this example:พวกเด็กๆส่งไปโรงเรียนโดยรถตู้ทุกเช้าเพราะว่าพ่อแม่ไม่ให้อนุญาตไปเอง "poo-ak dek-dek song pai rong-ree-an doi rot-dtoo tuhk chaow pro-waa poh-mae mai hai anuh-yaat pai eyng"=The children are sent to school by van every morning because the parents won't let them go by themselves.

Now,if you want to substitute the transitive "take,taken" instead of "send,sent" you can do so without problem.

"The children are taken to school by van every morning because the parents won't let them go by themselves."

If you would like to use the "toohk song",then the sentence can be written like this in Thai:

พวกเด็กๆถูกส่งไปโรงเรียนโดยรถตู้ทุกเช้าเพราะว่าพ่อแม่ไม่ให้อนุญาตไปเอง "poo-ak dek-dek toohk song pai rong-ree-an doi rot-dtoo tuhk chaow pro-waa poh-mae mai hai anuh-yaat pai eyng"!

Hope my argument helps clear away some of the foggy confusion that your lingering brain cloud seems to to have caused you Ricky.

Do us both a favor,will you Richard?Get real for a change!

Let me cheer you up with a funny little sentence using the intransitive "go"!

"That stupid old git,our peer Count Retch'lard,has become so senile that he is totally gone now.His nemesis Alzheimer's got him before the "Grim Reaper" could." :o

QUOTE 

โทรไปหาแม่ บอกว่าวันนี้ ได้หวยมา

26 95 14 แม่เราเลยซัดซะ ตัวละ 200 ถูกแดก เรียบ

แม่เล่าให้ฟังว่าขณะที่แม่จดหวยอยู่นั้น

มีตำรวจ นอกเครื่องแบบ เข้ามา จับแม่

ตกใจ มือเย็น ตีนเย็นกันใหญ่

แต่สุดท้ายก็พูดไกล่เกลี่ย และตำรวจ ก็ผละออกไป

เฮ้ออออ....โดน อีกแล้ว

You shouldn't copy and paste your own family affairs on the world wide web in that fashion Richard.

Are you crying out for help? :D

One of your Thai wives is obviously having a private conversation there about one of your mothers-in-law in Thailand!Or should they be called "out-laws" now! :wub:

I'm sure you already knew that your relatives are involved in the "underground" lottery and therefore got a visit from plainclothes officers!

Shame on you Rickie for having publicly exposed their and your secret affairs like that.

The tabloids and paparazzi might begin to stalk you now like they did with your peer Lord Archer. :D

I don't want to comment on your personal affairs Richard so don't count on me to help you get any scandalous exposure in the media by translating your shady dealings into English

Let your story break by itself in passive fashion without leaking too much.

Archer and other good peers traditionally seem to have done it like that! :D

Cheers.

Snowleopard.

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