The Morality Of Working Without A Work Permit.

[Begs]

Is it right to knowingly break Thailands Immigration laws........You know, the Laws that state that you are Not permitted to work.

Would you be prepared to go to Jail and accept that as a 'Fair kop Guv'ner' if the brown stuff hit the fan?

The good Moderator suggested that i open this thread.

[Ijustwannateach]

Nope, of course not. We should all obey all the laws of Thailand, all the time.

End of discussion.

[Harry Palmer]

it's a cruel fact of life that teachers will spend at least part of their working life without all of the official paperwork that they are legally required to have...

i have not heard of a teach. getting chucked out purely on the basis of a 'small' bit of paperwork that is not in order... more likely they have been up to no good in other respects & therefore deserve what they get...

perhaps my learned colleagues know better though?

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Work permits are too difficult to get and most teachers who have them didn't always.

It's because they are so difficult to get that there is always a shortage of farang teachers in Thailand and many classes have far too many students - up to fifty in some cases.

It's small wonder that most with a degree in teaching go to Japan or Korea to make four times as much money and teach proper sized classes at an acceptable room temperature.

I don't miss teaching.

[Axel]

The Morality Of Working Without A Work Permit., Is it right?

No, it is wrong!

Some countries take this very serious, one of them is Thailand. So besides of right or wrong, everybody working without a WP takes a big risk. I had this problem first time I came to Thailand, working in my own company and reported by a competitor that there is a foreigner without WP. The fellows in brown arrived in my office in force of 4, just 1 hour after, by coincidence, I had left for a visa-flight to Singapore. It was made very clear afterwards, would I have been in the office, I would have been arrested.

Years ago, in Europe I travelled for a job-interview to Switzerland, got the job and was asked by my new employer, to pass by at the respective department to deliver my application for a work permission. Arriving there, immediately I was told that I am not supposed to stay in the country and only to arrive once my visa is cleared. They made it very clear that I am illegal. Took me quite some talking to convince them that I was just there on a visit and job interview, will leave the country same day and only to return once I had the permit. (Which I did).

In another country, Rep of China) I stayed for 10 years, everybody knew I was working and the police dep't knew, I will never get a WP, even for my 'own ' company. I paid taxes on my salary, but had no WP. Tolerated but not legal.

So morally in this case it was ok (or not?) to work illegal.

To cut it short, illegal is illegal. If I have a choice to go somewhere else, why should I come to Thailand, I do not get a WP, means if I am not welcome!

[davethailand]

In my opinion its wrong, i'll get slagged off for this but people that come here and work full time without permits end up <deleted> it up for those of us that have one.

[Begs]

In my opinion its wrong, i'll get slagged off for this but people that come here and work full time without permits end up <deleted> it up for those of us that have one.

I agree with you Dave, why should these so called Teachers get away with being illegal, when good upstanding citizens like yourself follow correct procedure?

I bet those English Teachers would love a spell in Bangkok Immigration detention centre.

I wonder if they would complain about overcrowding in the Classroom when they are in a cell with 200 other criminals that have also abused the Laws of Thailand.

As far as I am concerned, if an English Teacher is working illegaly in Thailand, he is knowingly breaking the Law of Thailand. And in that case, let the full force of the law be bought down upon them.

Arrest, Detention, Court, Jail, Deportation, Blacklisting, Interpol files, FBI most wanted etc etc....................

Let them rot!

Will pop in your place in a few weeks @ Dave. ( I know you will be there and not in Jail, because you have a work permit. )

[ProThaiExpat]

If you do the crime, be prepared to do the time.

There is no enforcement of traffic laws in Thailand so most Thais break traffic laws daily.

It is not a moral issue.

If immigration enforces work permit laws then they will be followed, if not, they won't.

Undoubtedly, government policy affects enforcement. If English teachers are in short supply, would it be government policy to deport them for WP violations?

If you are holding down a job that an unemployed Thai citizen could bill, I suspect governmental policy would be strongly against you and enforcement would be rigid.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

In my opinion its wrong, i'll get slagged off for this but people that come here and work full time without permits end up <deleted> it up for those of us that have one.

I agree with you Dave, why should these so called Teachers get away with being illegal, when good upstanding citizens like yourself follow correct procedure?

I agree and I don't agree because I'm assuming that you're referring to 'Limpets' - backpacker potheads who can't be arsed to go back home and are sloppily masquerading as a teacher as a means to a Chang?

If that is the case then I agree 100% - especially with Dave who I understand has a daughter.

There should be a crackdown on all the limpets because it's not as black and white as what has been implied in the above posts which is that anyone who doesn't have a work permit is a bad egg and no good for the country.

Sometimes you have to work illegally for a while before you can become legal and though it may be a risk, it's not nesscessarily immorally wrong.

Good and bad is something we all know instinctively, it's not something that is decided by man, and laws are unnatural at the end of the day, as our visas - there was a time when we were a free roaming species.

I personally believe that anyone wishing to live and work as a teacher in Thailand who doesn't have a teaching degree but has a suitable personality (as well as other qualifications which would be useful) should be subject to stringent vetting, have background checks, supply references, pass a spelling test, do a questionaire, complete a short training course and be willing to work voluntarily for six weeks to really prove that they are worthy of the job and even then only be limited to teaching up to a certain age.

I think that's fair but unfortunatly the law isn't always.

[davethailand]

In my opinion its wrong, i'll get slagged off for this but people that come here and work full time without permits end up <deleted> it up for those of us that have one.

I agree with you Dave, why should these so called Teachers get away with being illegal, when good upstanding citizens like yourself follow correct procedure?

I agree and I don't agree because I'm assuming that you're referring to 'Limpets' - backpacker potheads who can't be arsed to go back home and are sloppily masquerading as a teacher as a means to a Chang?

If that is the case then I agree 100% - especially with Dave who I understand has a daughter.

There should be a crackdown on all the limpets because it's not as black and white as what has been implied in the above posts which is that anyone who doesn't have a work permit is a bad egg and no good for the country.

Sometimes you have to work illegally for a while before you can become legal and though it may be a risk, it's not nesscessarily immorally wrong.

Good and bad is something we all know instinctively, it's not something that is decided by man, and laws are unnatural at the end of the day, as our visas - there was a time when we were a free roaming species.

I personally believe that anyone wishing to live and work as a teacher in Thailand who doesn't have a teaching degree but has a suitable personality (as well as other qualifications which would be useful) should be subject to stringent vetting, have background checks, supply references, pass a spelling test, do a questionaire, complete a short training course and be willing to work voluntarily for six weeks to really prove that they are worthy of the job and even then only be limited to teaching up to a certain age.

I think that's fair but unfortunatly the law isn't always.

Sometimes you have to work illegally for a while before you can become legal and though it may be a risk, it's not nesscessarily immorally wrong.

i agree with this totally.

[Ijustwannateach]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn.

Like I said, obey the law all the time, ho hum.

P.S. Don't feed the trolls.

[mbkudu]

The original post should read: 'The Majority Are Working Without A Work Permit.'

[Begs]

'The Majority Are Working Without A Work Permit.'

This is worse than i ever imagined!

Why would people work in a job where they can be arrested ?

Why would someone do that?

I know the Salaries are fantastic, but really..........................

[davethailand]

surely the salaries are'nt that good,

give me an example.

please

[kenkannif]

I think Begs is being a tad sarcastic (hard to tell on an internet board) as I've told him a quite a few times teachers do not earn mega Bucks here. The teachers that probably don't have work permits I would say earn between 25k to 70+k a month (although the avarge IMO would probably be lower than the 70k, nearer the 30-50k amount!).

Good thread though!

[mbkudu]

No offense to Davethailand and Begs, but to me it seems niether of you have taught English in Thailand or maybe have on a very limited part time basis.

If a teacher was to follow the letter of the law to a tee within the work permit

structure in Thailand, he would be making around 25,000-35,000 baht in a language school such as ECC or Siam Language as examples. This means no outside private work or this would violate his work permit status. Could either of you guys survive taking care of a wife and child on this salary? Private tuition pays double these amounts, but technically it is considered illegal teaching. Morality is one thing, buy reality is another. Let's not come down too hard on teachers. They are providing a service that both Thais and many Asian expats

need desparately and that many other Farang disdain as 'backpacker hand to mouth work.' Oh, aren't all of you so noble! Give the teachers a break men.

It's hard work.

[Quentin La Connelle]

I occasionally teach when I'm in Bangkok. I do so "illegally" and have been doing so for a number of years.

Of course, it goes without saying that both I and all the thousands of other "illegal" teachers really could not give a shit about the opinions of a handful of worthless people (<please play nice (KK) who more likely than not don't even live in Thailand.

Edited August 22, 2004 by kenkannif

[Begs]

If a teacher was to follow the letter of the law to a tee within the work permit

structure in Thailand, he would be making around 25,000-35,000 baht in a language school such as ECC or Siam Language as examples. This means no outside private work or this would violate his work permit status. Could either of you guys survive taking care of a wife and child on this salary? Private tuition pays double these amounts, but technically it is considered illegal

A Thai Government Teacher gets about 7 - 8000 baht a Month.

If a Teacher gets deported and blacklisted from entering Thailand again for breaking Thailands laws, what use is that to his wife and children?

I think that is a selfish attitude, if the thoughts where with the wife and children the criminal would go back to his own country and get a proper Job with Proper wages.

I know Thai guys that go to Taiwan to work in Electronics Factories, 3 Years they are away, but they do it because they can earn more money than they can in Thailand, that way they can look after their families better.

Why do Farangs think that they should not have to do the same thing. Is it so easy just to break the law?

Then you must also be prepared to get deported and blacklisted, you are illegal in Thailand, you are breaking the Law knowingly.

You do the Crime so i guess you can do the Time....Up 2 U.

[kenkannif]

Why do Farangs think that they should not have to do the same thing. Is it so easy just to break the law?

Then you must also be prepared to get deported and blacklisted, you are illegal in Thailand, you are breaking the Law knowingly, You do the Crime so i guess you can do the Time....Up 2 U.

^ Why do schools and the MoE make it so difficult then?

And yes unfortunately it is common practice and the norm (I'd say over 50% of teacher here in Bangkok and probably Thailand do not have a work permit, and those that do are probably not covered a 100% in regards to location and what they teach. So even the legit teachers aren't really 100% legit (should these be reported to?) for teachers to work here illegally at some point or another.

Begs you seem a little holier than thou in regards to this, as a non-teacher living outside of Thailand how does it effect you? And why such concern?

It's not right, it's not clever but unfortunately it's a fact of life when teaching here in Thailand.

Have a word with the MoE and see if you can pursuade them to change the rules to make it easier for teachers to be legit here. It's something we as a school are trying to do (along with others) and as you mention it's not good to sully the reputation of Thailand as being the epitome of all things legal and legit! You'll be doing a service to your fellow farangs and at the same time helping not to risk the chance of all farangs being tarred with the same EFL/ESL brush!

Go for it! I'll help in any way I can! Don't moan about it, do something about it if it really and truly bothers you as much as your posts suggest it does!

You can champion the right of ALL EFL/ESL teachers here in Thailand! Or is it easier to bang on and on and on with the same points?

[Begs]

It's not right, it's not clever but unfortunately it's a fact of life when teaching here in Thailand.

So why do it then ?

What makes these so called Teachers want to break the laws of Thailand?

Why dont they go back to their own countries and get a proper Job?

I would love to see the look on their faces when entering The Bangkok Immigration Detention Centre.

You think classes are crowded...

Criminals go home, you knowingly break Thailands laws with impunity. Who do you think you are?

Get real lads, and get a real job!

[kenkannif]

Yes, Begs we get the message! Are you finished now (the answer is yes!)?

Look after yourself and your family and please let teachers do the same!

[Begs]

Look after yourself and your family and please let teachers do the same!

I do look after my family by not risking going to jail and being deported for breaking the laws of Thailand.

I cannot see how being a criminal is looking after ones family.

[kenkannif]

^ Well we'll have to a agree to disagree!

I think most of them are happy and don't think of themselves as criminals (no matter how much you may like to think that way), so again enjoy your crime free life and let others worry about themselves, okay?

If you'd like us to pretend it doesn't happen, well it will probably be better if you pretended it doesn't happen and stick to other parts of the board (that have relevance to you and what you do) where you're not going to get het up about things that DO go on here in Thailand! Makes sense really!

[Begs]

^ Well we'll have to a agree to disagree!

I think most of them are happy and don't think of themselves as criminals (no matter how much you may like to think that way), so again enjoy your crime free life and let others worry about themselves, okay?

So a guy that is knowingly breaking the law does not think he is breaking the law?

Do you think that a Dutch guy walking through Thai Customs, with a few hundred grammes of Dope in his pocket is not a criminal?

In his own country he would not be, in Thailand he would be.

Both the Dutch guy and The illegal worker are breaking the laws of Thailand.

They are both criminals as far as i can see, the law is the law!