wilko Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) As I said earlier, the main problem with racism is people can't recognise it in others, let alone themselves. It's like alcoholism...unless you realise and admit you are an alcoholic you can't do anything about it. ....And conversely, you have some folk who are so blinded by it, they perceive racism where none exists. Please keep on topic. Scouse. Saying/believing that is simply a cop-out by the ignorant. I'm not off topic this is about the perceptions and thinking around immigration policy and you cannot understand this unless you open your eyes and mind to the machinations of racism. If you feel unciomfortable about discussing racism and it's crucial relationship to this subject, I suggest you educate yourself on it. Edited December 11, 2007 by wilko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 As I said earlier, the main problem with racism is people can't recognise it in others, let alone themselves. It's like alcoholism...unless you realise and admit you are an alcoholic you can't do anything about it. ....And conversely, you have some folk who are so blinded by it, they perceive racism where none exists. Please keep on topic. Scouse. Saying/believing that is simply a cop-out by the ignorant. I'm not off topic this is about the perceptions and thinking around immigration policy and you cannot understand this unless you open your eyes and mind to the machinations of racism. If you feel unciomfortable about discussing racism and it's crucial relationship to this subject, I suggest you educate yourself on it. Well done Wilko, you have just confirmed Scouse's point! I don't think anyone feels uncomfortable discussing immigration/racism (I certainly don't) but its hard when people like you pop up and label everyone as "racist". Now, there are, without doubt, some comments on this thread that err into that territory, but there are many that don't - including points made that are valid and accurate that you responded to with the simple word, "racist". I was going to to respond to your comments at the time, based on my own personal knowledge and experience of working mainly in areas of high ethnic populations throughout my career (you don't manage that if you are racist). But I thought, what's the point, it will be ignored by you or go over your head. But I do believe there are lessons that should have been learnt about managing the current influx (and for the last 10+ years come to that), from wherever, whatever the colour of peoples skin and that hasn't happened. Partly as no one will debate the issue in a marningful and mature way, as you conclusively prove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce1 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Any rule which attempts to disciminate against people on the basis of race is, by definition, racist. The language test is just a pretext to attempt to justify the racism on another basis. It has nothing to do with whether people will successfully integrate or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the scouser Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 Any rule which attempts to disciminate against people on the basis of race is, by definition, racist. And that's why these proposed new rules, although principally aimed, I would suggest, at the sub-continent nationalities, would be applied to every single non-EEA nationality. That way the government can't be accused of being discriminatory. Scouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) As I said earlier, the main problem with racism is people can't recognise it in others, let alone themselves. It's like alcoholism...unless you realise and admit you are an alcoholic you can't do anything about it. ....And conversely, you have some folk who are so blinded by it, they perceive racism where none exists. Please keep on topic. Scouse. Saying/believing that is simply a cop-out by the ignorant. I'm not off topic this is about the perceptions and thinking around immigration policy and you cannot understand this unless you open your eyes and mind to the machinations of racism. If you feel unciomfortable about discussing racism and it's crucial relationship to this subject, I suggest you educate yourself on it. Well done Wilko, you have just confirmed Scouse's point! I don't think anyone feels uncomfortable discussing immigration/racism (I certainly don't) but its hard when people like you pop up and label everyone as "racist". Now, there are, without doubt, some comments on this thread that err into that territory, but there are many that don't - including points made that are valid and accurate that you responded to with the simple word, "racist". I was going to to respond to your comments at the time, based on my own personal knowledge and experience of working mainly in areas of high ethnic populations throughout my career (you don't manage that if you are racist). But I thought, what's the point, it will be ignored by you or go over your head. But I do believe there are lessons that should have been learnt about managing the current influx (and for the last 10+ years come to that), from wherever, whatever the colour of peoples skin and that hasn't happened. Partly as no one will debate the issue in a marningful and mature way, as you conclusively prove. Certain parts of the post I'm afraid I really don't get...however to claim that because you worked with "areas of high ethnic population" means you are not a racist???? What kind of language is THAT? Racism is largely based on a concept of "US" and "THEM" which to me sounds very much like "areas of high ethnic population" ... I suppose you'll be claiming because the British lived and worked in India for 200 years they can't be racist either! "the sub-continent nationalities" - there's a nice expression too. you'll be saying "some of my best friends are "Coloreds" " next! Edited December 11, 2007 by wilko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticpig Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Imagine if British men had to learn Thai before moving to Thailand, there wouldnt be any here! Imagine if British men could speak English rather than just grunting? Ha Ha, your right they can’t, not past the Watford Gap. I just piss myself when the guys start talking to the Thai girls with a Broad Northern accent, the poor girls have no idea what the guy has just Said, they used to come and ask me what the guy said, when he went for a piss. Amazing people in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samran Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Any rule which attempts to disciminate against people on the basis of race is, by definition, racist. And that's why these proposed new rules, although principally aimed, I would suggest, at the sub-continent nationalities, would be applied to every single non-EEA nationality. That way the government can't be accused of being discriminatory. Scouse. In Australia and the US, I beleive that is called 'dog whistle politics'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshbags Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) As I said earlier, the main problem with racism is people can't recognise it in others, let alone themselves. It's like alcoholism...unless you realise and admit you are an alcoholic you can't do anything about it. ....And conversely, you have some folk who are so blinded by it, they perceive racism where none exists. Please keep on topic. Scouse. Saying/believing that is simply a cop-out by the ignorant. I'm not off topic this is about the perceptions and thinking around immigration policy and you cannot understand this unless you open your eyes and mind to the machinations of racism. If you feel unciomfortable about discussing racism and it's crucial relationship to this subject, I suggest you educate yourself on it. Well done Wilko, you have just confirmed Scouse's point! I don't think anyone feels uncomfortable discussing immigration/racism (I certainly don't) but its hard when people like you pop up and label everyone as "racist". Now, there are, without doubt, some comments on this thread that err into that territory, but there are many that don't - including points made that are valid and accurate that you responded to with the simple word, "racist". I was going to to respond to your comments at the time, based on my own personal knowledge and experience of working mainly in areas of high ethnic populations throughout my career (you don't manage that if you are racist). But I thought, what's the point, it will be ignored by you or go over your head. But I do believe there are lessons that should have been learnt about managing the current influx (and for the last 10+ years come to that), from wherever, whatever the colour of peoples skin and that hasn't happened. Partly as no one will debate the issue in a marningful and mature way, as you conclusively prove. Certain parts of the post I'm afraid I really don't get...however to claim that because you worked with "areas of high ethnic population" means you are not a racist???? What kind of language is THAT? Racism is largely based on a concept of "US" and "THEM" which to me sounds very much like "areas of high ethnic population" ... I suppose you'll be claiming because the British lived and worked in India for 200 years they can't be racist either! This happened long before our time and is not applicable to 2007 "the sub-continent nationalities" - there's a nice expression too. What on earth is wrong by reference in relation to Scouses point ? I was going to use the same definition some posts ago, but held back as many have due to your obvious pro bias and the inability to see reason you'll be saying "some of my best friends are "Coloreds" " next! Some of us, if not the majority of U.K. citizens have, believe it or not, many different friends from the ethnic groups of all colours including white. This is a fact and in no way derogratary or meant to be condescending, but you of course will get on your racial high horse and say otherwise i,m sure. Scouse is saying as i have in an indirect way that people from the sub continent are the main reason why these changes have had to be implemented. Thai,s for one i would say are not the target and because of abuse on more than generous immigration policies, must also have to go thru the same scrutiny, even though they are mostly on an honest agenda and not seeking the welfare state facilities and all they now offer NON residents who are attracted to them Taking them away from the old, infirm and genuinely unemployed citizens who for many a year have contributed to a better deal than they can now expect is the reality of it all, is a very unjust, unfair and unreasonable situation to leave them in. If you wish to do something positive and useful, why not start a cause to help those who have not only earned the right to comfort and support, but more importantly, deserve it. Let us start by moving all the old and infirm U.K. citizens ect. into the free and warm accomodation / hotels that non U.K. immigrants are being given on entry into our beloved kingdom. Of course they who you support can in turn be put into the cold and miserable conditions ( not in our houses ) that our own now live in. But then again your not interested in putting the horse before the cart and prioritising who should rightly be looked after first....are you. marshbags. P.S. Perhaps your racially motivated shit stirring should be ignored and given the contempt it deserves. IMH and PO as always Edited December 11, 2007 by marshbags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbojangles Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Perhaps your racially motivated shit stirring should be ignored and given the contempt it deserves. That's what i've decide to do marshbags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Certain parts of the post I'm afraid I really don't get...however to claim that because you worked with "areas of high ethnic population" means you are not a racist???? What kind of language is THAT?Racism is largely based on a concept of "US" and "THEM" which to me sounds very much like "areas of high ethnic population" ... Areas of high ethnic population are actually identified based on fact's taken from the official UK census and other methods used to collect such data to keep it relevant and up to date. That's fact, that's reality. What's happened within the UK in the last few years, especially with my "inside" knowldege arising from the work I do (loosely linked to what Scouse did) has led to a fundamental re-appraisal to my views on migration generally, which is quite difficult for me professionally. But I really don't need to justify myself to you so will do as others have said, and simply ignore you from now on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Imagine if British men had to learn Thai before moving to Thailand, there wouldnt be any here! Imagine if British men could speak English rather than just grunting? Ha Ha, your right they can't, not past the Watford Gap. I just piss myself when the guys start talking to the Thai girls with a Broad Northern accent, the poor girls have no idea what the guy has just Said, they used to come and ask me what the guy said, when he went for a piss. Amazing people in Thailand. Nah - its the soft southern shandy drinkers with their "Awight maite" they do not get I teach them mackem me like! To be serious my Thai colleagues get my accent more than a lot of other Asians when I geve a presentation at work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticpig Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Imagine if British men had to learn Thai before moving to Thailand, there wouldnt be any here! Imagine if British men could speak English rather than just grunting? Ha Ha, your right they can't, not past the Watford Gap. I just piss myself when the guys start talking to the Thai girls with a Broad Northern accent, the poor girls have no idea what the guy has just Said, they used to come and ask me what the guy said, when he went for a piss. Amazing people in Thailand. Nah - its the soft southern shandy drinkers with their "Awight maite" they do not get I teach them mackem me like! To be serious my Thai colleagues get my accent more than a lot of other Asians when I geve a presentation at work! Think they like you, very big Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 (edited) It's so sad that so many people on this web site have absolutely no idea what racism is about and how they are an integral part of it. "I'm no racialist" is usually a sign that the person is.... (why is it that they always like to use the term racialist rather than racist?) Of course if you think that the colour of your skin signifies different behaviour or species -then you have got a problem Edited December 12, 2007 by wilko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 It's so sad that so many people on this web site have absolutely no idea what racism is about and how they are an integral part of it."I'm no racialist" is usually a sign that the person is.... (why is it that they always like to use the term racialist rather than racist?) Of course if you think that the colour of your skin signifies different behaviour or species -then you have got a problem Of course its not the colour of the skin that signifies behaviour or actions - I am firmly in the nurture camp as opposed to the nature camp (of course there ar some physiological differences that make some better at ay running, etc though) The nurture can and does have a massive effect on a persons behaviour - attitudes to women, religion they are indoctrinated into as children etc - the list is long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce1 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 If you think you're not racist, then you probably are, since racism is a normal human defensive reaction to people who are 'different'. The louder you insist you are not racist, the more likely it is you actually are. Its a circular argument. Might as well just embrace your racism and learn to moderate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prakanong Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 If you think you're not racist, then you probably are, since racism is a normal human defensive reaction to people who are 'different'. The louder you insist you are not racist, the more likely it is you actually are. Its a circular argument. Might as well just embrace your racism and learn to moderate it. So everybody is racist - those that think they are not are according to you That leave those that think they are - logic says they will be Strange world you inhabit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilko Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 If you think you're not racist, then you probably are, since racism is a normal human defensive reaction to people who are 'different'. The louder you insist you are not racist, the more likely it is you actually are. Its a circular argument. Might as well just embrace your racism and learn to moderate it. the key is realising you are a racist...but if you don't know what racism is or can't recognise it ....etc....etc... most racism is learned though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the scouser Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 This one's gone massively off topic, which if you recall was the proposed introduction of a pre-entry English test. Closed. Scouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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