Uk Government Immigration Review.

[s.pylos]

Doubt very much this applies to people coming in from the european union though, thats the BIG issue we have right now!

Mark

And what about the rights of a Brit to marry the lady of his choice and live here with her?

It was with this in mind that I asked my local MP whether I, as a British Citizen or European Community member, had the right to bring my wife into the UK to live with me.

The answer was a resounding...."Actually NO!"

I was told that I only have the right IF my wife passes the British Government's criteria for entry.

Doesn't it make you feel good knowing that the UK Government has the best interests of it's people at heart

Jaray

well you have the right to apply (application form VAF4, used to be VAF2 or 1

Then you must show that:

* you are legally married to each other or are in a civil partnership recognised in the UK

* your husband, wife or civil partner is present and settled in the UK (see the next section)

* you both intend to live together permanently as husband and wife or as civil partners

* you have met each other before

* you can support yourselves and any dependants without any help from public funds

* you have suitable accommodation, which is owned or lived in only by you and your household, and where you and your dependants can live without any help from public funds

* your husband, wife or civil partner is not under 18, and

* you are not under 18.

if you can show that, you should be allowed to bring your wife in the UK. It is quite clear and simple.

NOW they recently added that:

Anyone applying to stay permanently in the United Kingdom after 2 April 2007 is required to show that they have the necessary level of knowledge of the English language and life in the United Kingdom.

You can do this by:

* going on an approved English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) course which includes a citizenship section, or

* passing the 'Life in the UK' test.

If you don't apply for permanent residence....

[sandy]

Edited December 6, 2007 by s.pylos

[the scouser]

...But it could also be used as an artificial barrier to immigration, for whatever reasons.

Exactly! And it's my belief that the government's statement that this proposal is to aid integration, is disingenuous in the extreme. As several posters have already commented, if the UK is truly a democratic country, how on earth can the government dictate whom one should or shouldn't marry.

Scouse.

[in2it1]

goes to show... You just cant fight the powers that be.... so what if some find happiness with those who cant speak a language... yea, it maybe the language of that country.... but why? oh why? would any government want to intrude so far into the relationships of their own people.... if they are not confirmed or suspected terrorist... Then who cares what language another person speaks or their own people find happiness with?? Its just too easy to come up with a million excuses to try and justify such an intrusion, but the bottom line is.... There is no excuse!

[Spiny]

Imagine if British men had to learn Thai before moving to Thailand, there wouldnt be any here!

I would like to see the same rules applied here. Before allowing work permits, spouse, retirement and other legitimate ways for foreigners to gain access to the Kingdom then they would have to demonstrate Thai language skills and a knowledge of Thai culture and history. The aim would be to restrict the numbers of undesirables coming to settle in Thailand. Not just from the Uk but from Eastern Europe and the sub-continent.

[george]

Sandy, it this it?

[tracer5050]

I guess it will never end . I am from thre US and the my friends in the UK say I dont speak English , Does that mean i cant live in the UK. American is kind of English ? LOL

[carole medlock]

My initial instinct is that such a move would discriminate against those nationalities which are either not indigenous speakers of English or do not have a colonial background. For example English is far more engrained and widely spoken in Malaysia than it is Thailand, a consequence of which is that an average Joe Malaysian is far more likely to speak passable English than a Thai.

It should be a level playing field for all, yet it won't be because of various historical factors.

Scouse.

No i agree with the law, if you dont speak any english then how can they get what they want, if thais want to go to England then they have to learn to speak the laungauge, but most thaies do not want to learn English and i speak from experience in teaching young thai students, but even here now in thailand all teacher's have to learn to speak some thai this is a new rule from ministry of Education, and i totally agree with it ( yes i can speak some thai)

[s.pylos]

Sandy, it this it?

Yes all info available here:

UK Visas website

my previous post disappeared...

[sandy]

[carole medlock]

...But it could also be used as an artificial barrier to immigration, for whatever reasons.

Exactly! And it's my belief that the government's statement that this proposal is to aid integration, is disingenuous in the extreme. As several posters have already commented, if the UK is truly a democratic country, how on earth can the government dictate whom one should or shouldn't marry.

Scouse.

i really can not see your problem the goverment is not telling you who or not to fall in love with as you know when you fall in love with a thai even before this rule it took time to get visa's to go anywhere out of thailand so during that time if your true love really loves you she/he would want to learn your langauge, it took a friend of mine 5 months to get her visa so true love always pervails

[carole medlock]

...But it could also be used as an artificial barrier to immigration, for whatever reasons.

Exactly! And it's my belief that the government's statement that this proposal is to aid integration, is disingenuous in the extreme. As several posters have already commented, if the UK is truly a democratic country, how on earth can the government dictate whom one should or shouldn't marry.

Scouse.

i really can not see your problem the goverment is not telling you who or not to fall in love with as you know when you fall in love with a thai even before this rule it took time to get visa's to go anywhere out of thailand so during that time if your true love really loves you she/he would want to learn your langauge, it took a friend of mine 5 months to get her visa so true love always pervails

carole

[gdhm]

For those who feel the English speaking requirement is fair, I would tend to agree although I am not sure on the human rights issue.

I trust however those same persons retired, married or whatever living in Thailand would feel removal of their Thai Visa would also be fair and acceptable IF they cannot speak a word of Thai. A huge percentage of us living in Thailand I am sure cannot put more than a few Thai phrases or words together.

For those who say "but my Thai wife can speak MY language" I would point out that the UK are not saying option would be acceptable in the proposals they are thinking of discussing.

I am sure MANY who would fall foul of any UK requirement to speak English could say they can communicate on their own mother tongues.

Regards

[MaiChai]

On balance, I think its a good idea. Why wouldn't anyone in the modern world want to learn the international language of communication? Reality is that it would be difficult to administer for the UK gov? Who is going to do all the testing?

Anyone in a relationship should be able to communicate, and anyone seriously considering marrying someone should be able to communicate well with their partner and know them intimately (hint!). My view is that we foreigners who can afford to visit Thailand regularly (hint: we are educated) should be marrying educated Thai's anyway (should they be university students, professionals, or Thai middle class with a decent education). Marrying a country girl who can hardly read Thai never mind learn a foreign language is a recipe for disaster? Its not as if there isn't enough choice out there

Edited December 7, 2007 by MaiChai

[the scouser]

i really can not see your problem the goverment is not telling you who or not to fall in love with as you know when you fall in love with a thai even before this rule it took time to get visa's to go anywhere out of thailand so during that time if your true love really loves you she/he would want to learn your langauge, it took a friend of mine 5 months to get her visa so true love always pervails

I was just widening the debate, Carole. This potential requirement is only the latest in a string of government acts which, introduced insidiously, strike at the fundamental meaning of democracy.

Scouse.

[bloody tiger]

I bet the govt won't have THIS response to someone whose wife has fails the english test :-

Sir, as your wife has failed to speak english and thus is not able to live you, you will be denied access to many of the govt services and benefits for which you have have paid tax all your life and for which you continue to pay tax for, so we have decided to refund to you 40 years of tax payements and you will no longer have to pay any tax.

!!!!

Obviously i am being sarcastic, but lets face it, they the govt are taking the piss. I totally agree for normal immigrants and working immigrants, but someones wife should be exempt from this stupid rule (if it comes to pass).

I myself have been frustrated by my Australian govt for many many years. I decided to live in the land of smiles back in the early 80's and now some of our kids are grown up and living/studying in australia.

Whenever my wife, a long time wife of an australian and the mother of lots of australian kids, wishes to visit australia(and her children) we still hav to go through the whole visa process every bloody time. At the same time, any old Joe Blow fom any of the "farang" countries can hop along to australia without 2 bob in his pocket and get a visa on arrival. Its frustrating and its BS.

I realise that many people rort the system through a dubious marrage. This should be the govt's problem to sift through and not make it a real time drama for every honest marrage.

Edited December 7, 2007 by bloody tiger

[steffi]

Well flip it around then and consider what happens when the spouse is required to speak Thai before migrating to Thailand then.

Have you never thught that maybe the husband is a fluent thai speaker?

When we lived in the Uk my thai wife went ballistic when we visited the local council offices, She has a good command of english yet could not read so many notices posted in Hindu Bengali and Urdu!

The Immigration problem in the UK is not caused by Thai wives . Too many pakistanis and africans.

Making things difficult for the Thai is a joke when arranged marriages from Pakistan are a dialy occurence.

Thank God we left that shit hole and now live here where the people still have working brains.

I think the proposed requirement for a spouse to be able to speak English is quite fair in most circumstances. If 2 people can't communicate with each other, the odds are not good that they would have a successful and enduring marriage. I wonder whether there is potential for challenge under Human Rights legislation though. I think I can see what the Government is getting at here. In fact it seems that this change is designed to addres the very problem you refer to above. Personally I couldn't seriously consider marrying someone who I could not have a proper conversation with. On the other hand Mrs E2B had the advantage of a more formal education in the English Language than I did, which can be really annoying as she corrects my grammar etc. whilst looking over my shoulder. I blame the UK education system

Using your argument re: the UK spouse being a fluent Thai speaker, surely draws direct comparison with a UK spouse being a fluent Hindi or Urdu speaker?

Like the Scouser, I see this being a major money spinner for English Language Schools in Thailand. Suddenly that business is looking more appealing

[Bird on the Wire]

No i agree with the law, if you dont speak any english then how can they get what they want, if thais want to go to England then they have to learn to speak the laungauge, but most thaies do not want to learn English and i speak from experience in teaching young thai students, but even here now in thailand all teacher's have to learn to speak some thai this is a new rule from ministry of Education, and i totally agree with it ( yes i can speak some thai)

i really can not see your problem the goverment is not telling you who or not to fall in love with as you know when you fall in love with a thai even before this rule it took time to get visa's to go anywhere out of thailand so during that time if your true love really loves you she/he would want to learn your langauge, it took a friend of mine 5 months to get her visa so true love always pervails

I can see why your students don't get far in their English language studies.

[steffi]

You mean even for a short stay?

I'm pissed because my local Thai consulate will not give me a mulitple entry Type O based on marriage visa.

They will only give single entry visas.

As long as it's difficult for foreigners to get into Thailand (longer stays) then I suppose the notion of the reverse.

I bet the govt won't have THIS response to someone whose wife has fails the english test :-

Sir, as your wife has failed to speak english and thus is not able to live you, you will be denied access to many of the govt services and benefits for which you have have paid tax all your life and for which you continue to pay tax for, so we have decided to refund to you 40 years of tax payements and you will no longer have to pay any tax.

!!!!

Obviously i am being sarcastic, but lets face it, they the govt are taking the piss. I totally agree for normal immigrants and working immigrants, but someones wife should be exempt from this stupid rule (if it comes to pass).

I myself have been frustrated by my Australian govt for many many years. I decided to live in the land of smiles back in the early 80's and now some of our kids are grown up and living/studying in australia.

Whenever my wife, a long time wife of an australian and the mother of lots of australian kids, wishes to visit australia(and her children) we still hav to go through the whole visa process every bloody time. At the same time, any old Joe Blow fom any of the "farang" countries can hop along to australia without 2 bob in his pocket and get a visa on arrival. Its frustrating and its BS.

I realise that many people rort the system through a dubious marrage. This should be the govt's problem to sift through and not make it a real time drama for every honest marrage.

[happy_viking]

The UK governement has today unveiled it's new Australian-style points system for those wishing to migrate to the UK for work purposes. They have also announced a consultation process to discuss the merits of requiring spouses who wish to settle in the UK to be able to speak English before even travelling to the UK.

A separate consultation, also published today seeks views on the introduction of an English language test before entry for people applying for a spouse visa to help to encourage successful integration.

You can bet your bottom dollar that if the government is consulting on this, the likelihood is it will come to pass. If so, expect some crony of the government to be given the contract to run recognised English language courses abroad, and also expect a marked downturn in the number of Thai spouse settlement visa applications.

Scouse.

so all the polish and eastern crooks con come but not thai ladies finding a crime free life

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Britain tightens immigration requirements

LONDON: -- The British government Wednesday outlined details of a points-based system to "manage" immigration from outside the European Union (EU) under which unskilled workers would have little chance of entering Britain and spouses would have to pass an English language test.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the proposals, devised along the lines of the Australian immigration system, were aimed at providing a "robust machinery" to ensure that only those migrants "meeting the needs of the UK will be allowed to enter and work."

Applicants would earn points for their skills and the "potential" they show for economic success.

The government would also in future "block the privilege of citizenship" to applicants with a criminal record and offer greater protection for people being pressurized into forced marriages.

Under the proposals, expected to come into force next year, the minimum age at which people can come to Britain for marriage will be raised from 18 to 21.

The five-tier immigration system is aimed at attracting highly trained and skilled workers, according to Britain's economic needs, while low-skills "will only be used if specific shortages are identified that cannot be filled from the UK or European labour force."

Last year, about 12,000 unskilled migrants from non-EU countries in Africa, America and Asia came to work in Britain.

However, the opposition Conservative Party, and anti-migration pressure groups, have said the new system will have little real effect as the vast majority of migrants coming to Britain were arrivals from new east European members of the EU.

The Conservatives, who have demanded an Australian-style upper annual limit on immigration, also maintain that the new system would not work without putting a cap on numbers.

--DPA 2007-12-05

Full Home Office press release.

[gjones]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

[dezy1801]

The funny thing is that most Thai's I know who either have a British boyfriend or husband, can speak very good English. Giving the oppertunity to work in Britain they would and I'm sure they would work hard and pay all taxes that would be due. This is unlike the Immagrants that get in and live a better life than the British people, like getting a free house, education, meals and even a new car. Britain is a JOKE

Good old Britain, That god I discovered Thailand.

[oevna]

...But it could also be used as an artificial barrier to immigration, for whatever reasons.

Exactly! And it's my belief that the government's statement that this proposal is to aid integration, is disingenuous in the extreme. As several posters have already commented, if the UK is truly a democratic country, how on earth can the government dictate whom one should or shouldn't marry.

Scouse.

This law doesn't say who you can or can't marry. It only says that if an English citizen marries a foreigner, the foreigner might not be legally allowed to live in England (unless he or she learns to speak English, to some specified level of proficiency). This is not about marriage, it is about immigration. Every country may set its own immigration laws. I'm not saying I like or dislike this law. It is interesting though, and the timing of it almost certainly has some connection to current immigration trends.

[endure]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

[Prakanong]

The funny thing is that most Thai's I know who either have a British boyfriend or husband, can speak very good English. Giving the oppertunity to work in Britain they would and I'm sure they would work hard and pay all taxes that would be due. This is unlike the Immagrants that get in and live a better life than the British people, like getting a free house, education, meals and even a new car. Britain is a JOKE

Good old Britain, That god I discovered Thailand.

Yeah - like the majority of so called immigrants (the visa runners) are paying tax in Thailand who are living a better life than most Thai's.

[Prakanong]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

Hyperbole is everything to the histrionic!

These guy's whinge on about leaving the UK and point to immigrants as opne reason and do not see the irony in their own position, many of who are living a precarious life of visa runs.

As countries develop and globalization spreads the trend might just be to tighten immigration for those without the skills and experience a country needs and to make it easier for those with the skills a country needs to develop and grow its economy.

Who knows - Thailand might have a clear out in the future!

Edited December 7, 2007 by Prakanong

[oevna]

The funny thing is that most Thai's I know who either have a British boyfriend or husband, can speak very good English. Giving the oppertunity to work in Britain they would and I'm sure they would work hard and pay all taxes that would be due. This is unlike the Immagrants that get in and live a better life than the British people, like getting a free house, education, meals and even a new car. Britain is a JOKE

Good old Britain, That god I discovered Thailand.

I doubt this law was targetted specifically at Thai immigration into England. I don't know what percentage of immigration in the UK Thai people represent, but in the US (where I live), it is pretty small.

And yes, I agree that most Thai women with an English-speaking boyfriend or husband speak English better than the average Thai person.

[Prakanong]

The funny thing is that most Thai's I know who either have a British boyfriend or husband, can speak very good English. Giving the oppertunity to work in Britain they would and I'm sure they would work hard and pay all taxes that would be due. This is unlike the Immagrants that get in and live a better life than the British people, like getting a free house, education, meals and even a new car. Britain is a JOKE

Good old Britain, That god I discovered Thailand.

I doubt this law was targetted specifically at Thai immigration into England. I don't know what percentage of immigration in the UK Thai people represent, but in the US (where I live), it is pretty small.

And yes, I agree that most Thai women with an English-speaking boyfriend or husband speak English better than the average Thai person.

Not at all aimed at Thai immigration to the UK.

I bet the south Asian community are up in arms more over this - as I mentioned above in some area's 3 out of 4 wives are brought over from the villages of Pakistan - they tend not to marry the local girls muslim or not.

There is a lot of debate in the UK currently over immigration just as it is in the USA - the increase is partly due to globalization and is often one of the neglected aspects of this.

The UK never used to have any citizinship tests or language requirements for people becoming "subjects" until quite recently unlike a lot of other countries - there are still lots of immigrants who have been in the country 20-30+ years who can not speak English.

The Govt played catch up and with the current public opinion being what it is they have swung the pendulum even further - a sop to public opinion but I do back the language requirement for ILR

My opinion is swinging both ways with regard to this new requirement but I am edging on to agreeing with it. I ust also confess though I did not learn Thai when I lived there and did not learn French when I lived in Belgium - pure lazieness as there was no requirement.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Prakanong

[oevna]

Yeah - like the majority of so called immigrants (the visa runners) are paying tax in Thailand who are living a better life than most Thai's.

Do many of them draw a salary while living in Thailand? I was under the impression that employment and property ownership is somewhat restricted for foreigners. Or are they mainly living off of personal savings or pensions? In the US, most taxes are taken out of income, property tax, sales tax, and taxes on the returns from investments (and there are some local taxes in certain cities). To be honest, I can't recall if there is sales tax in Thailand. I'm trying to think back to the last time I was there and bought a bar of soap or something at 7-11, and recall if there was sales tax. And what about property tax? Maybe one of the current residents in Thailand can fill me in.

[endure]

My opinion is swinging both ways with regard to this new requirement but I am edging on to agreeing with it. I ust also confess though I did not learn Thai when I lived there and did not learn French when I lived in Belgium - pure lazieness as there was no requirement.

Precisely. Just imagine the uproar if the Thai government insisted that anyone who wanted to marry a Thai would have to be fluent in the Thai language before the marriage could take place.

[Spiny]

Typical UK reaction of hitting the soft targets but let face it, the whole country is a dinosaur and that is why most of us indigenous people left.

As the ethnic minority group population of the UK stands at about 7% (according to the 2001 census) precisely who is this group of 'indigenous people' most of whom have left the UK?

Hyperbole is everything to the histrionic!

These guy's whinge on about leaving the UK and point to immigrants as opne reason and do not see the irony in their own position, many of who are living a precarious life of visa runs.

As countries develop and globalization spreads the trend might just be to tighten immigration for those without the skills and experience a country needs and to make it easier for those with the skills a country needs to develop and grow its economy.

Who knows - Thailand might have a clear out in the future!

Lets hope so, those of us who are legitimate long term residents, would welcome the exodus of the vest, shorts and flip-flops brigade. Perhaps Pattaya and Samui would be worthy of a visit for a long weekend again for the family.

[endure]

What level of English do we require? "O" level or "A" level?

All that is required is basic conversational English, the ability to be able to read common English phrases and notices.

Basic writing skills. "Political Correct" English must be excluded. Use male and female terms as required etc.

The standard of an average Anglo Saxon 11 year student perhaps?

How many non Anglo Saxons get the opportunity to be immersed in and study English for 11 years? I believe that the Thai language standard for citizenship is the equivalent of an 11 year old Thai school student. Could you reach that level whilst studying the language outside of Thailand?