Dowry In Rural Issan

[Mikenmod]

In the past 2 years, I've heard many stories about Issan weddings. I've been warned by many who've left broken hearted and broke.

But I will tie the knot with a fine lady of 30, a graduate of Ubon Ratchisima University, who worked as a quality control specialist at cpk, earning 18K bhat per month, a decent salary. She's a virgin. Is that really possible? Are women like this real?

Knowing that many a farang has settled in Issan with their love, I'd appreciate your stories and advise. Especially about dowry, gold Bhat, and wedding costs. If Dad gets a dowry, is that it? Or am I expected to help the family with each "emergency"?

Maybe this issue has been discussed many times before, but I'm new to the Forum, and hope to hear some good stories. Mike

[LoveDaBlues]

What is your age and where do you plan to live after marriage? And, how much experience do you have in Thailand?

[thedi]

Maybe this issue has been discussed many times before,

Your right at that, Mike. :D

As for dowry, I will give you some examples. All in 2007 from Isarn and all personally known to me:

• Thai man (25) agreed last week for a dowry of 150K for a Thai girl (same age). Both are from Isarn, both not well situated.
  
• A farang (63) married last November a virgin (34) with univerity and good job. He paid 500K.
  
• Another Thai paid 100K last December for his Thai wife, both not especially well off, and both from Isarn.
  
• A farang (62) paid last year 300K for a girl (29) which he met in Pattaya with daughter from Kalsin.
  
• A Thai (28) paid 1 Mio for his Chinese bride (25, uni) last year, both from good standing families in rural Isarn.
  

Hope this gives you an idea

Thedi

[cannondale]

I remember going through the same thing a couple of years ago. I trawled through this forum and other internet sites. All the reading really just pointed out to me that there is no hard and fast rule. Sometimes you hear of thai/thai marriages with huge dowrys. It really is up to the individual and the better halfs family and how well of they are and where they stand in the village/community. I remember I had a discussion about it with my wife and it really came down to what I could afford, her family is quiet poor but they are very close and loving toward each other and support each other in every way. I paid 200K plus 2 baht gold. I saw that her father brought some more cattle and they now work really hard with their new herd, I feel guilty sometimes! I never get the sick buffelo story and when I go there they never ask anything from me or my wife, I always slip the mother in law some cash quietly when we leave, but not much.

In summery go with your gut feeling and talk to your future wife about it.

Hope this helps a little.

[Gary A]

I agree that the best advice is to discus it with your future wife. I was perfectly willing to pay a dowry and actually left it up to my now wife. She thought about it for a long time and decided that no dowry was necessary so I paid nothing. My wife was 36 years old at the time and divorced with no children.

[Disting]

I paid 200k on the understanding with the mother in law that 100k would be returned. This gave better 'face' to the family and meant we had more to put towards the house. Worked fine. Remeber the dowry will be counted out note by note in front of all guests and the face thing is important here.

[macduff]

I paid 200,000bht. This was an understanding that this was the last and final payment for me to take there daughter away from thai and to live in england. Twelve months previous to the marriage i was contributing 10,000bht per month for the loss of there daughters earnings to the family. I did offer them to keep 10,000bht continuous forever. I know what i would have done if i was the farther of the bride.

[soundman]

Not all marriages are the same.

While the idea of "sin sot" was joked about at my wedding, it was not expected & not given.

The practicalities of the matter pretty much came across as "if you two have money, invest it in your own future".

Cheers,

Soundman.

[Globeliner]

I'm starting to feel guilty, I paid nothing to marry my wife (of 6years now) she loves me for who I am, not how much money I can give her family. They have not asked for a baht in the 8 years I've known her.

I'd be flamed by saying this, but you marry for love right? What the hel_l has money got to do with it?

Sure you would want to be financially stable, but it's both your future to look to, in my opinion, families that want money from a prospective husband for their siblings, are just out right con artists.

To the OP, depending on the family, you should not have to pay, they should want to see their daughter happy, with or without money.

[Globeliner]

I paid 200k on the understanding with the mother in law that 100k would be returned. This gave better 'face' to the family and meant we had more to put towards the house. Worked fine. Remeber the dowry will be counted out note by note in front of all guests and the face thing is important here.

I must look real bad in my wife's familys eyes then, buying a wife? Come on gentlemen

[siamesekitty]

It is not a "paying" issue, it is not a buying a wife issue.

For most modern Thai/Thai weddings I know of, the dowry is still there, as part of tradition (which I view as a gesture of gratitude to the bride's parents). However, in most of these situations, the couple is from similar socio-economic backgrounds, and neither party (bride's parents or groom's parents) want to keep the money; rather, they give it to the couple to help them in their new family.

[Travel2003]

I'm starting to feel guilty, I paid nothing to marry my wife (of 6years now) she loves me for who I am, not how much money I can give her family. They have not asked for a baht in the 8 years I've known her.

I'd be flamed by saying this, but you marry for love right? What the hel_l has money got to do with it?

Sure you would want to be financially stable, but it's both your future to look to, in my opinion, families that want money from a prospective husband for their siblings, are just out right con artists.

To the OP, depending on the family, you should not have to pay, they should want to see their daughter happy, with or without money.

Same here.

Didnt pay anything to the parents either.

Have been with my wife for more than 5 years now.

I asked her, after we signed in the amphur in BKK, if she also wanted an Isaan wedding, and what I needed to pay.

She told me that we should save the money instead, for the future (house). Account in 2 names now.

Family have never asked for money.

Always give them when we are there (and send some regularly as well), so I have already given them 4-500 000 in total anyway.

The farm has a proper house now, and the herd has trippled.

So I guess my Dowry was paid after all. Just over some time instead of a single payment.

[yorkman]

I'd be flamed by saying this, but you marry for love right? What the hel_l has money got to do with it?

To the OP, depending on the family, you should not have to pay, they should want to see their daughter happy, with or without money.

That is the essence of it Globeliner.

They wanted their daughter happy, so 100K was flashed at the wedding, and was back in my bank next day.

The gold my wife has, a 2 Baht necklace and a bracelet I surprised her with on the wedding day. Ohh and an engagement ring from the UK (18 carat so worth nothing in Thailand) and wedding rings we both picked out for each other, just plain heavy western style gold bands.

There is a serious message here, check out the family, if they want more than tradition (for show) then you may have a problem..

If they want to keep the Sinsot... well... how much do they care for their daughters future, or you???

[Mikenmod]

I want to thank everyone who posted an answer. I think that everyone has different stories, and different opinions.

And I'll tell any one on this forum, I think I'm doing it the right way.

We've known each other over a year and I've been in the Kingdom a lot the past years.

Thailand is a place I'd like to spend a lot of time in. And I think a good wife is better than all the cuties in the cities.

Hey, I hope that in a year or two I can pass on some good stories.

[AA1]

As various of you have said the "Sinsot' is still part of the tradition in rural Isaan weddings so still lives on.

My wife and I had a good discussion about this before the day. She did not want a Sinsot but it was expected in the village. We decided that what we would like to do for the family, was buy an 'iron buffalo' for family use as in this way members could earn B500 a day instead of the previous B120 without one. When needed, it would also make life easier on their small rice farms.

I gave a cash at the wedding equivalent to this (plus some gold as a present to my wife) so tradition was satisfied and then afterwards returned to us to buy the 'iron buffalo'. Everyone ended up happy:-

Tradition was followed,

We were able to help her family in a small practical way (and not very expensive)

The family were able to benefit in the long term.

My wife (and I totally agreed with her) said that what some people give in large sums of cash was stupid and very liable to be used for a long term supply of drink rather than to improve their standard of living!!

My recommendation would be to think along the lines we did. If a Sinsot is still expected at your village wedding, discuss with your wife some small way that you can practically help the family and then agree that sum for your Sinsot and after the wedding use the money for that purpose. I would NOT buy my wife from her family but I was happy to help them so everyone is happy.

I would also say that since the wedding I have NEVER been asked by any of the family for anything (other then the odd cigarette!!). If they have a minor problem they may discuss with my wife who in turn may discuss it with me. My wife seems to have made it clear that it would be more than their lifes worth to approach me first!! Don't let yourself become the family or village ATM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[prakhonchai nick]

Cannibalism used to be a tradition in Africa, but is no longer. Female Genital mutilation is still practiced in many backward countries where the inhabitants have no moral conscience, but is far less than it used to be.

Traditions and cultures change with time. It's high time sin sot was put to rest. In essence it is just for the parents to show off to their neighbours, but sadly many Isaan mothers refuse to return it. As other contributors have said it is nothing short of buying your wife. Disgraceful and demeaning.

[jumnien]

I offered 500,000 for the little lady. SOLD!

Over the years, I've given my wife's family about one tenth what I've given to my mother. Not bad at all. If they have a problem, they know they can come to us and maybe some day they will. Five years, no problem.

[siamesekitty]

After being a member here for 3 years, I'm too tired to present my views on this with as much zeal as I used to. But you can see my previous posts on this subject if you'd like. (Just search "dowry" and "siamesekitty")

To me, a Thai style wedding without a sinsod is like a farang-style wedding without a wedding ring. The rich and famous buy expensive rings with huge diamonds, the rest buy whatever's within their budget. It's part of the traditional ceremony and the ceremony would be kinda weird without it, but hey if you wanna have an incomplete wedding then who am I to argue?

Just see how well a Western woman would cope if you were to ask her for her hand in marriage and say "Well you know honey, I know I'm supposed to buy this ring for you and stuff, but since it's such an outdated custom and I don't see any sense in it, why don't we just get married without it? I mean, we can say our vows without a ring can't we? Besides, you'd look like a gold-digger if I were to present you with such a materialistic gift!"

Of course there are always some Thai women who would be willing to go along without a sinsod, such as there are probably some Western women who wouldn't mind not getting a ring. If your Thai girlfriend is fine with it then great, but just remember this is how she might feel.

*edit: maybe I've got "wedding ring" mixed with "engagement ring" or whatever, but you get my drift.

Edited January 9, 2008 by siamesekitty

[prakhonchai nick]

To me, a Thai style wedding without a sinsod is like a farang-style wedding without a wedding ring.

I fully respect your point of view.

Sinsot is a Thai custom, practiced traditionally between Thais. It is only in recent years that there have been large numbers of thai/farang marriages. Sinsot is not a farang custom, so at best the Thais should meet us halfway. But since a farang usually can offer far more to the Thai wife than a Thai man ever can ( a decent home from day 1 as a starter), this should cancel out the required dowry. The girls family should be delighted that their daughter has scored a big lift-up in her life. That must give them a huge amount of "face"

Every Thai/Thai wedding in my locality in recent years has necessitated a massive loan being needed to pay the dowry, (with monthly interest of between 5% and 20%... Yes 20% a month!) which is a millstone around the newlyweds necks for many years. What chance do they have?

As I have previously -time to bin this tradition, and get real.

[LoveDaBlues]

I'm starting to feel guilty, I paid nothing to marry my wife (of 6years now) she loves me for who I am, not how much money I can give her family. They have not asked for a baht in the 8 years I've known her.

I'd be flamed by saying this, but you marry for love right? What the hel_l has money got to do with it?

Sure you would want to be financially stable, but it's both your future to look to, in my opinion, families that want money from a prospective husband for their siblings, are just out right con artists.

To the OP, depending on the family, you should not have to pay, they should want to see their daughter happy, with or without money.

What are the particulars, just to say you paid nothing is vague. What part of Thailand is your wife from? Educational/financial status? Divorced? With kids? A virgin? Age?

It all matters.

I believe in reasonable sinsod under the right conditions although I paid nothing. But for a guy to pay 300K for a 29 year old with a kid.....well......

It may very well be you found a one-in-a-million......not just your wife but the family as well.

[NovaBlue05]

I paid about 80k several years ago. The wedding was in combined with a Ka Thin for her deceased father and the fun and frolic went on for about 3 days. Her mother properly displayed the baht to guests and then it was used to pay for the festivities....which included dancing girls and a band.

The most fun I ever got for $2 grand and an experience I will never forget

[Whatever]

I think 200K seems the going rate for a fareng marrying a Thai as that is what we 'showed'. They gave me 70K back which I spent on some house improvements for them, and they paid for the food and drink at the wedding. I certainly didn't feel like I was being ripped off or that I was buying my wife, which I think is a ridiculus analagy. I felt like I was following a tradition and fitting into part of my wife's culture. I felt like I was giving my wife's family pride and respect and I didn't mind doing it or feel resentful at all. It especially made my misses happy and because I love her that makes me happy.

In Thailand the dowry is not a purchase situation - how much for your daughter - altho go to a poor enough family... For most Thais it is a show of wealth from a particular suiter. It is a show that he can take care of the daughter. It is also peace of mind for the father and shows a willing to help the daughter's family which is deep rooted in Thai culture.

My wife's brother want's to get engaged and the family have mentioned 90,000bt and 2bt gold, now he's got to decide if he loves her enough to part with that sort of money.

It is also about class as well. If someone can't find the money to marry someone then may be he is trying to marry out of his class and should look else where.

We got married in the village and did the budist thing and I quite enjoyed it, altho it was abit of an early start for me (6am). It was a shame that I didn't have my friends and family around me but it certainly saved me money in the long run. The cost of a wedding in the UK can be upwards of 10K pounds (about 650K). The way I look at things mine cost me 3K pounds.

If a dowry has been mentioned then what you have to aske yourself is how much you love her and how much you can afford? Come up with a figure in your mind that you are happy with and put it to the womans family. If her family are financially secure you could ask them if you can just 'show' a load of money at the wedding and then say to them that you would like to use that money to start yor married life together.

Anyway Chok Dee mate (Good luck)

[corkscrew]

What is your age and where do you plan to live after marriage? And, how much experience do you have in Thailand?

Those are very good questions. The person asking these questions is not being judgemental. He is asking serious and good questions. Think seriously about your reply.

[saraburioz]

A farang (62) paid last year 300K for a girl (29) which he met in Pattaya with daughter from Kalsin.

Unbelievable.

[LoveDaBlues]

A farang (62) paid last year 300K for a girl (29) which he met in Pattaya with daughter from Kalsin.

Unbelievable.

Yea, I thought the same......but.....if he's happy.........his money......maybe pocket-change to him.

I'd never do it though.

[prakhonchai nick]

It is also about class as well. If someone can't find the money to marry someone then may be he is trying to marry out of his class and should look else where.

Love should transcend everything.

"You can't marry my daughter if you can't pay what I want" Disgusting!

[Whatever]

"If you can't even raise a dowry how do you expect to look after my daughter?"

[LoveDaBlues]

I've always viewed sinsod differently from anything I've seen posted on TV. Here's my take since I'm bored now lol and need to kill a bit of time. After reading it perhaps you'll think I'm nuts.

For most people in Issan money is something very hard to come by. So how better for a Thai man to show his respect/wanting/love than to give away something that is so hard to possess? Also, the term 'love' to me is defined VERY DIFFERENTLY in Thailand than in the West. I've found most Thai women don't 'fall in love' the way Western women do. Instead, it's a feeling that grows over time as the man provides support for the wife/family over time. Only by helping the wife's family over time (starting with sinsod) does the Thai wife understand/realize how much the man loves her and she returns that love in kind.

Sinsod - the topic that won't go away.

[LoveDaBlues]

"If you can't even raise a dowry how do you expect to look after my daughter?"

Also true in the States. You don't see a stunner marrying the high-school janitor lol. She (and her family) expect her to be well taken care of.

Edited January 9, 2008 by LoveDaBlues

[yorkman]

I've always viewed sinsod differently from anything I've seen posted on TV. Here's my take since I'm bored now lol and need to kill a bit of time. After reading it perhaps you'll think I'm nuts.

For most people in Issan money is something very hard to come by. So how better for a Thai man to show his respect/wanting/love than to give away something that is so hard to possess? Also, the term 'love' to me is defined VERY DIFFERENTLY in Thailand than in the West. I've found most Thai women don't 'fall in love' the way Western women do. Instead, it's a feeling that grows over time as the man provides support for the wife/family over time. Only by helping the wife's family over time (starting with sinsod) does the Thai wife understand/realize how much the man loves her and she returns that love in kind.

Sinsod - the topic that won't go away.

Different... but there is an element of truth I think. You are maybe only partly nuts

There is an element of "Take Care" = Love. But it's not just money. My wife tells me that it is because I "Stand with her", a good expression I think. When you understand that marrying a Thai means marrying into their family also.

Back to the topic though, it has been my very general observation that when the family keep the sinsot, it is a marriage doomed to fail. A generalisation from a small sample I know, but I have seen this time and again.

In my case, and I have seen this with others, it is a case of keeping up with tradition. I flashed the cash at our wedding, and there was a very clear understanding that it was coming straight back to us. It did, the next day, quietly and discretely.

If your intended says "up to you", then just take this on board and suggest this arrangement? If the family actually care about the wellbeing of their daughter it will not be a showstopper.

As for the gold. In the really old days it was shared around the family. These days, even in Issan, your wife gets it, the equivalent of a wedding ring. You would indeed be a "bird s__t farang" to deny her this, she can show she is married. A necklace usually, 2 baht weight is enough.

My wifes favourite possession is a 2 Baht bracelet made of gold hearts that I added and she only knew about during the wedding ceremony. Her necklace she rarely uses, but this is a permanent attachment.

Ohhh and I got a rather large and gaudy, made from Thai gold, wedding ring, bought from her teachers salary. Who says West cannot meet East?