A Simple Analogy For Anatta

[AYJAYDEE]

we exist at any moment in time but we do not possess a permanent unchanging essence or self. our existance can be likened to a candle flame. the gasses being burned at any instant are not the same as the ones that burned an instant ago but are the direct result of those gases. the flame looks to be the same flame observed previously but it is not in fact the same flame! so our existance as a sentient being. we look the same as an instant ago but we are not. we are however created as a result of the existance of an instant ago.

[jamesc2000]

we are however created as a result of the existance of an instant ago.

If we are created then who is the creator?

[Brucenkhamen]

we are however created as a result of the existance of an instant ago.

If we are created then who is the creator?

If you read the analogy again you'll see that the flame now is created by the flame an instant ago.

Now AYJAYDEE tried to start a thread on a particular topic and rather than comment on that topic you've tried to change the subject completely.

If you want to discuss "Who created x?" best to start a thread on it.

[AYJAYDEE]

we are however created as a result of the existance of an instant ago.

If we are created then who is the creator?

our previous existance crated the present one.

[Samuian]

The emphasis is on 'the flame - life - me - burning away - being at no instance the 'same' as the one a split-Nanosecond before that!

Let it be, as is and beware of too much 'smartness = confusion'!

It is, it has been, it always will be.

Nothing has been 'created' it is as is.

Egg or Chicken first, anyone?

or should I say:

"splitting hairs" anyone?

Edited January 12, 2008 by Samuian

[AYJAYDEE]

The emphasis is on 'the flame - life - me - burning away - being at no instance the 'same' as the one a split-Nanosecond before that!

Let it be, as is and beware of too much 'smartness = confusion'!

It is, it has been, it always will be.

Nothing has been 'created' it is as is.

Egg or Chicken first, anyone?

or should I say:

"splitting hairs" anyone?

by "created". i simply refer to a renewed existance or rebirth. buddhadassa postulated that we experience a rebirth in every moment. i must say, i like his theory.

if you are suggesting that buddhadassa exhibited too much "smartness", go ahead.

[lost_in_space]

we are however created as a result of the existance of an instant ago.

If we are created then who is the creator?

I think this is one of the "four imponderables" the Buddha talked about.

The four things you'll never understand until enlightenment are:

the beginning of it all

karma

the mind of a buddha

the mind of an arahant

Heard that from Wes Nisker, one of the Spirit Rock teachers. Can't give a sutta source.

[seonai]

Ajaydee and Lost in Space - I really understand that. I just wish I could apply it more to my every day life... it took me many years to see this concept and I am still shying away from it as I know it to be true but in a way don't want to face it

[AYJAYDEE]

it is kinda scary to face the fact that we have no permanent self after years of conditioning in exactly the opposite. western culture stresses the ego and self to the nth degree and now we have to deprogram. but i believe we can only truly see and believe this at a very advanced distance along the path. until then, dont worry too much about it.

[AYJAYDEE]

that sounds sensible. four things that shud not cause us undue stress because they are so hard to grasp until the time is right

[thaiclan]

I really like the concept of the flame. We can use it for our greater good and to extract change for the better in our lives.

When you look in the mirror today you are not seeing who you are today, but rather who you were. Your appearance (and Life) are the product of your actions taken to date, they do not resemble who you are today and in the moment, and who you might be tomorrow......

[Brucenkhamen]

In terms of Buddhist practice it doesn't matter what is the absolute truth of it, you and I don't need to know right now, and subscribing to one doctine or another can only be a hindrance.

What's important is that you observe what arises and passes away through the 6 senses. In terms of the candle analogy you can observe each moment as it arises and passes away.

Can you observe the notion of self objectively as it arises and passes away, can you observe it's characteristics. If you can observe it objectively rather than subjectively it changes how you percieve yourself and the world around you.

Anatta gives you the opportunity to step out of being embroiled in your life and see it from a different perspective, it's only useful if you do it, no point in just believing it, or thinking about, or discussing it on a Buddhist forum.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Brucenkhamen

[AYJAYDEE]

In terms of Buddhist practice it doesn't matter what is the absolute truth of it, you and I don't need to know right now, and subscribing to one doctine or another can only be a hindrance.

What's important is that you observe what arises and passes away through the 6 senses. In terms of the candle analogy you can observe each moment as it arises and passes away.

Can you observe the notion of self objectively as it arises and passes away, can you observe it's characteristics. If you can observe it objectively rather than subjectively it changes how you percieve yourself and the world around you.

Anatta gives you the opportunity to step out of being embroiled in your life and see it from a different perspective, it's only useful if you do it, no point in just believing it, or thinking about, or discussing it on a Buddhist forum.

No point in discussing it on a buddhist forum??? oh my!!

[Samuian]

.....................

if you are suggesting that buddhadassa exhibited too much "smartness", go ahead.

well, i didn't quote, that why u misinterpreted the post.

I referred to the post of "jamesc2000" about his created/creator/creation question.

But thanks for the kick - I will give it some insight and will observe!

We human bags of manure are infested with that tendency to overvalue ourselves, our beliefs and values....aren't wequite a funny bunch!?

And bruceankhamen is dam_n' right, it ONLY is worth while doing it!

Like in clipping Roses, if you don;t do it, it won't happen, as simple as that!

Displaying smartness, knowledge etc. is ONE heck of rock on the path!

Edited January 13, 2008 by Samuian

[jamesc2000]

.....................

if you are suggesting that buddhadassa exhibited too much "smartness", go ahead.

well, i didn't quote, that why u misinterpreted the post.

I referred to the post of "jamesc2000" about his created/creator/creation question.

But thanks for the kick - I will give it some insight and will observe!

We human bags of manure are infested with that tendency to overvalue ourselves, our beliefs and values....aren't wequite a funny bunch!?

And bruceankhamen is dam_n' right, it ONLY is worth while doing it!

Like in clipping Roses, if you don;t do it, it won't happen, as simple as that!

Displaying smartness, knowledge etc. is ONE heck of rock on the path!

I am not an expert on Buddhism so please correct me if I am not correct.

I believe that Buddhism is a religion of Peace and Tolerance, Gentleness and Truth, Wisdom and Knowledge, Compassion and Non Violence.

I think the beauty of Buddhism is that its is not a "Don't Ask, Just Do" kind of religion. Isn't the beauty of Buddhism that it is not a - blind faith, do as I say, don't ask, only I know the way - type of religion?

Buddhism not only allows discussion but encourages it! Buddhism encourages people to question and challenge so that people can come to the truth!

And how does a person know they are on the right path? Surely they practise gentleness in their speech?

Surely the practice of Buddhism gives you peace and calmness, compassion and kindness and this is reflected in one's post?

After practising Buddhism, does anyone else here contemplate that their true self is bags of manure?

May I make a humble request that when you quote me, please do not use "we" as in, we human bags of manure ...... !

Manure is valuable and useful! If you put manure under your mango tree, you will get the sweetest mangoes!

I never like to claim to be something I am not and certain not to claim something way better than what I am.

I only write that I think my true self is nothing, no use, no value and I certainly do not have the power to make mangoes sweeter!

Does True Buddhism encourage profanities? Does it teach there is only one way? Your way and no other way? Is this what Buddhism is all about?

I think its great that there is a forum here and I have personally learnt so much from other people here. I would to thank all the posters here for taking time to post their views and knowledge here.

I certainly do not think people posting here have put a big rock in their path for themselves.

I think their contribution have instead cleared a path for themselves!

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong or simply just to add and contribute. We can only learn by sharing.

Edited January 14, 2008 by jamesc2000

[AYJAYDEE]

.....................

if you are suggesting that buddhadassa exhibited too much "smartness", go ahead.

well, i didn't quote, that why u misinterpreted the post.

I referred to the post of "jamesc2000" about his created/creator/creation question.

But thanks for the kick - I will give it some insight and will observe!

We human bags of manure are infested with that tendency to overvalue ourselves, our beliefs and values....aren't wequite a funny bunch!?

And bruceankhamen is dam_n' right, it ONLY is worth while doing it!

Like in clipping Roses, if you don;t do it, it won't happen, as simple as that!

Displaying smartness, knowledge etc. is ONE heck of rock on the path!

I am not an expert on Buddhism so please correct me if I am not correct.

I believe that Buddhism is a religion of Peace and Tolerance, Gentleness and Truth, Wisdom and Knowledge, Compassion and Non Violence.

I think the beauty of Buddhism is that its is not a "Don't Ask, Just Do" kind of religion. Isn't the beauty of Buddhism that it is not a - blind faith, do as I say, don't ask, only I know the way - type of religion?

Buddhism not only allows discussion but encourages it! Buddhism encourages people to question and challenge so that people can come to the truth!

And how does a person know they are on the right path? Surely they practise gentleness in their speech?

Surely the practice of Buddhism gives you peace and calmness, compassion and kindness and this is reflected in one's post?

After practising Buddhism, does anyone else here contemplate that their true self is bags of manure?

May I make a humble request that when you quote me, please do not use "we" as in, we human bags of manure ...... !

Manure is valuable and useful! If you put manure under your mango tree, you will get the sweetest mangoes!

I never like to claim to be something I am not and certain not to claim something way better than what I am.

I only write that I think my true self is nothing, no use, no value and I certainly do not have the power to make mangoes sweeter!

Does True Buddhism encourage profanities? Does it teach there is only one way? Your way and no other way? Is this what Buddhism is all about?

I think its great that there is a forum here and I have personally learnt so much from other people here. I would to thank all the posters here for taking time to post their views and knowledge here.

I certainly do not think people posting here have put a big rock in their path for themselves.

I think their contribution have instead cleared a path for themselves!

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong or simply just to add and contribute. We can only learn by sharing.

i agree that it is worthwhile discussing things like anatta. there are so many folks out there who can steer us past the rough spots. i have always felt that the concept of no self has discouraged many folks and may even have displwced them from the path. any encouragement or guidance on this subject, i have always been gratefu for any help i can gt, that is what the idea of "the good friend" is about to me.

[AYJAYDEE]

In terms of Buddhist practice it doesn't matter what is the absolute truth of it, you and I don't need to know right now, and subscribing to one doctine or another can only be a hindrance.

What's important is that you observe what arises and passes away through the 6 senses. In terms of the candle analogy you can observe each moment as it arises and passes away.

Can you observe the notion of self objectively as it arises and passes away, can you observe it's characteristics. If you can observe it objectively rather than subjectively it changes how you percieve yourself and the world around you.

Anatta gives you the opportunity to step out of being embroiled in your life and see it from a different perspective, it's only useful if you do it, no point in just believing it, or thinking about, or discussing it on a Buddhist forum.

ok, that makes sense, but i am a tad concerned when someone tells me what is or is not worthwhile for me to discuss .

[camerata]

And how does a person know they are on the right path? Surely they practise gentleness in their speech?

Surely the practice of Buddhism gives you peace and calmness, compassion and kindness and this is reflected in one's post?

Not only that. Anyone who is practising Dhamma should be working to eliminate self-view (sakkaya-ditthi), and especially the inflated self-view that we Westerners tend to have as a result of the rampant individualism so prized in our culture. Once we make an effort not to be attached to our views, not to try and outsmart others in an argument, not to criticize others, and not to compare ourselves with others, our speech and writing automatically become more gentle.

It's odd, really, that anatta is the key teaching of Buddhism and yet it is so often ignored or misunderstood. From palikanon.com:

anattā

'not-self', non-ego, egolessness, impersonality,

is the last of the three characteristics of existence (ti-lakkhana, q.v.) The anattā doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance.

This is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding which a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire Structure of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems and religions, but the anattā-doctrine has been clearly and unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is known as the anattā-vādi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'.

Whosoever has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his personality that will enter into Nibbāna, his personality that walks on the Eightfold Path. Thus it is said in Visuddhi Magga. XVI:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;

The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."

[jamesc2000]

i agree that it is worthwhile discussing things like anatta. there are so many folks out there who can steer us past the rough spots. i have always felt that the concept of no self has discouraged many folks and may even have displwced them from the path. any encouragement or guidance on this subject, i have always been gratefu for any help i can gt, that is what the idea of "the good friend" is about to me.

That's the beauty of Buddhism! It make you kinder, more helpful and friendlier!

And it helps you become more supportive of other people and you get to make good friends!

Edited January 15, 2008 by jamesc2000

[jamesc2000]

And how does a person know they are on the right path? Surely they practise gentleness in their speech?

Surely the practice of Buddhism gives you peace and calmness, compassion and kindness and this is reflected in one's post?

This is the central doctrine of Buddhism, without understanding which a real knowledge of Buddhism is altogether impossible. It is the only really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire Structure of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems and religions, but the anattā-doctrine has been clearly and unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is known as the anattā-vādi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'.

Whosoever has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his personality that will enter into Nibbāna, his personality that walks on the Eightfold Path. Thus it is said in Visuddhi Magga. XVI:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;

Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;

The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."

You have put this very well!

That's why I guess there is no such thing as - "I am a good Buddhist, I chant everyday without fail, I give to monks, I never do evil things and I am going to Nibbana when the time comes!"

"Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;"

If there is an "I" then its not going to Nibbana!

[Nudee]

we are however created as a result of the existance of an instant ago.

If we are created then who is the creator?

There is no "creator" concept in Buddhism.

There is only 'birth'

something like this:

input -> [Function1] -> output1 -> [Function2] -> output 2 -> [Function3] -> output 2 and so on..

This is called "Ittappayajatta" all "rule", "Law', "Kot" whatever you call it.

Everything is under this law. There is actually no input nor output. There exist only functions (Dhamma).

If input exists, output exist

if input not exists, output also not exist

Dhamma (function(s)) always exists. Dhamma is already there, no creator.

Like mentioned above, everything is under some laws (function1, function2, etc) including rock, trees, tables, sky moon and you.

You are nothing but an outout from a sequence of 11 functions called "pajittasamupbat" which is a subset of "Ittappayajatta". These functions exists in all beings and which cause "suffer".

There are so many laws in the nature and it's kind of useless to learn them all. The main purpose of Lord Buddha's searching is to elimiate "suffer" so these 11 functions are essential for all buddhist.

Each day, you are born several times as a result from external inputs and your passa (output of function5) and becoming the input of the next function until reaching the final output (birth)

If thre is no external inputs, you are not born (no you)

when external inputs come to join your passa, you are born.

So, you can avod being born by staying in a way that there is no external input inputs to make you born. Actually you are in this state several times a day. This is temporary nippan.

To control this, you can catch and break the function6, function7 with your Sati.

This is like trying to clean a mirror all days so there is no dust on the mirror. But once you forget to clean it (catch and break it with your Sati), dust is born. So, this is also temporaty nippan.

To reahc real nippan state, you need to take out the mirror. If no mirror, even there are so many dust in the air, there will be no dust on the mirror.

And the mentioned mirror is actually "input1" above. It's called "Avitcha". To make "Avitcha" disappear, you turn it to "Vitcha" using what's called "Panya" and that's it. No functions can be executed.

Simple like that but it's useless until you proof it by yourself.

[jamesc2000]

we are however created as a result of the existance of an instant ago.

If we are created then who is the creator?

There is no "creator" concept in Buddhism.

There is only 'birth'

something like this:

input -> [Function1] -> output1 -> [Function2] -> output 2 -> [Function3] -> output 2 and so on..

This is called "Ittappayajatta" all "rule", "Law', "Kot" whatever you call it.

Everything is under this law. There is actually no input nor output. There exist only functions (Dhamma).

If input exists, output exist

if input not exists, output also not exist

Dhamma (function(s)) always exists. Dhamma is already there, no creator.

Like mentioned above, everything is under some laws (function1, function2, etc) including rock, trees, tables, sky moon and you.

You are nothing but an outout from a sequence of 11 functions called "pajittasamupbat" which is a subset of "Ittappayajatta". These functions exists in all beings and which cause "suffer".

There are so many laws in the nature and it's kind of useless to learn them all. The main purpose of Lord Buddha's searching is to elimiate "suffer" so these 11 functions are essential for all buddhist.

Each day, you are born several times as a result from external inputs and your passa (output of function5) and becoming the input of the next function until reaching the final output (birth)

If thre is no external inputs, you are not born (no you)

when external inputs come to join your passa, you are born.

So, you can avod being born by staying in a way that there is no external input inputs to make you born. Actually you are in this state several times a day. This is temporary nippan.

To control this, you can catch and break the function6, function7 with your Sati.

This is like trying to clean a mirror all days so there is no dust on the mirror. But once you forget to clean it (catch and break it with your Sati), dust is born. So, this is also temporaty nippan.

To reahc real nippan state, you need to take out the mirror. If no mirror, even there are so many dust in the air, there will be no dust on the mirror.

And the mentioned mirror is actually "input1" above. It's called "Avitcha". To make "Avitcha" disappear, you turn it to "Vitcha" using what's called "Panya" and that's it. No functions can be executed.

Simple like that but it's useless until you proof it by yourself.

Dear Nudee

Thank you very much for taking time and posting the answer.

I really appreciate it very much.

[Nudee]

Dear Nudee

Thank you very much for taking time and posting the answer.

I really appreciate it very much.

Thank you Jamesc2000. I don't want to debate on this. Just want to share my interpretation of Dhamma.

It may not be correct but I believe it's pretty much the idea.

Sea exists, Wind exists -> Wave exists

Sea exists, no wind -> no wave

You can observe that in your daily life. There are times when you are in peace and times when you are angry, glad, jeolous, etc. That is how you are born and reborn in terms of Buddhism. It's suffering.

Now, put a big container to cover the sea. even when wind exists -> no wave. You can do this by using method like meditation to control it, catch it and break the chain using Sati (which is as fast as lightning)

However, the sea still exists. As soon as you remove the container, you are subject to reborn. And so this's not the final destination.

You have to remove the sea (Avitcha). That can be done using Panya. To have Panya you need Samati.

Samati exists -> Panya Exists -> Avitcha not exist -> Vitcha exists

Samati not exists -> Panya not Exist -> Avitcha exists -> Vitcha not exist

Samati and Panya is the 2 sides of the coin. Loosing Samati is loosing Panya.

That's all what I know. The rest is to reach it by yourself.

[jamesc2000]

Dear Nudee

Thank you very much for taking time and posting the answer.

I really appreciate it very much.

Thank you Jamesc2000. I don't want to debate on this. Just want to share my interpretation of Dhamma.

It may not be correct but I believe it's pretty much the idea.

Sea exists, Wind exists -> Wave exists

Sea exists, no wind -> no wave

You can observe that in your daily life. There are times when you are in peace and times when you are angry, glad, jeolous, etc. That is how you are born and reborn in terms of Buddhism. It's suffering.

Now, put a big container to cover the sea. even when wind exists -> no wave. You can do this by using method like meditation to control it, catch it and break the chain using Sati (which is as fast as lightning)

However, the sea still exists. As soon as you remove the container, you are subject to reborn. And so this's not the final destination.

You have to remove the sea (Avitcha). That can be done using Panya. To have Panya you need Samati.

Samati exists -> Panya Exists -> Avitcha not exist -> Vitcha exists

Samati not exists -> Panya not Exist -> Avitcha exists -> Vitcha not exist

Samati and Panya is the 2 sides of the coin. Loosing Samati is loosing Panya.

That's all what I know. The rest is to reach it by yourself.

Thank you Nudee for sharing your explanation of the Dhamma.

To me it is a very good explanation and it is a great assistance in helping me to understand better.

[Nudee]

Thank you Nudee for sharing your explanation of the Dhamma.

To me it is a very good explanation and it is a great assistance in helping me to understand better.

I am glad you get it. Now just leave what I explained here because it's kind of useless. Don't carry it with you because Dhamma cannot be explained in words/letter. It can bring you to the door but not able to make you cross it. You need to cross it by yourself.

You need to use your Panya.

Everybody already has Panya, but we put some kind of filters in front of it so we cann't see it.

Samati is like a fire, Panya is the light form the fire. They are the same thing not two seperated entities.

The thicker your filter is, the more difficult you will see the light. And that's why even after someone read 84,000 chapters in Tripitaka, they won't understand a bit about Dhamma (because of the thinkness of their filter). If you have a very thin filter, you can shortcut using Zen technique. Several monks in China can cross the door in a sudden manner just by listening to people who has "been there, done that".

Most monks in Thailand are sticked to Tripitaka or meditation technique, which I think is for people with "thick filter" people. Many of them has thin-filter but riding wrong vehicles so it doesn't give good result. If you have thin-filter, I suggest going Zen way.

My filter is kind of thick. so don't get serious with my little knowledge about Dhamma. I am not the one who "been there, done that" so please don't believe me. Just try to cross the door by your self and come back to bring us along with you :-)

[jamesc2000]

I am glad you get it. Now just leave what I explained here because it's kind of useless. Don't carry it with you because Dhamma cannot be explained in words/letter. It can bring you to the door but not able to make you cross it. You need to cross it by yourself.

You need to use your Panya.

Everybody already has Panya, but we put some kind of filters in front of it so we cann't see it.

Samati is like a fire, Panya is the light form the fire. They are the same thing not two seperated entities.

The thicker your filter is, the more difficult you will see the light. And that's why even after someone read 84,000 chapters in Tripitaka, they won't understand a bit about Dhamma (because of the thinkness of their filter). If you have a very thin filter, you can shortcut using Zen technique. Several monks in China can cross the door in a sudden manner just by listening to people who has "been there, done that".

Most monks in Thailand are sticked to Tripitaka or meditation technique, which I think is for people with "thick filter" people. Many of them has thin-filter but riding wrong vehicles so it doesn't give good result. If you have thin-filter, I suggest going Zen way.

My filter is kind of thick. so don't get serious with my little knowledge about Dhamma. I am not the one who "been there, done that" so please don't believe me. Just try to cross the door by your self and come back to bring us along with you :-)

Dear Nudee

Your posts are always so beautiful and you have insight like a laser!

I am not sure if you have a thick filter, all I know is you have great modesty!

I on the other hand know the least about Buddhism here.

All I know is if you seek the truth, the truth will find you!

And from your posts all I know is the truth will find you very soon!

It has been my good karma to read the beautiful words you have written.

Btw you are quite right about Zen when you wrote, "Several monks in China can cross the door in a sudden manner just by listening to people who has "been there, done that". So many post here are about Theravada and Mahayana but Zen is a perfectly good vehicle!

I have always loved reading Zen stories and one of my favourite is about cleaning the mirror so no dust falls on it and there is no mirror.

Your earlier post about the mirror hits home exactly on target!

Edited January 20, 2008 by jamesc2000

[jamesc2000]

Thank you Jamesc2000. I don't want to debate on this. Just want to share my interpretation of Dhamma.

It may not be correct but I believe it's pretty much the idea.

Sea exists, Wind exists -> Wave exists

Sea exists, no wind -> no wave

You can observe that in your daily life. There are times when you are in peace and times when you are angry, glad, jeolous, etc. That is how you are born and reborn in terms of Buddhism. It's suffering.

Now, put a big container to cover the sea. even when wind exists -> no wave. You can do this by using method like meditation to control it, catch it and break the chain using Sati (which is as fast as lightning)

However, the sea still exists. As soon as you remove the container, you are subject to reborn. And so this's not the final destination.

You have to remove the sea (Avitcha). That can be done using Panya. To have Panya you need Samati.

Dear Nudee

This reminds me of the beautiful story of the three monks looking at a flag blowing in the wind.

The first monk said the flag is moving!

The second monk said, no it’s the wind that is moving!

The third monk said, no it’s the mind that is moving!

If there had been 4 monks then they may all have been enlightened as the forth monk may have said, there is no mind!

[jamesc2000]

Just try to cross the door by your self and come back to bring us along with you :-)

I am not sure I want to cross the door.

If I did cross then there would be a duality of people who have cross and people who have not.

We are the same. In Buddhism there is no superior or inferior. We are all equal!

But if everyone is crossing then please let me know, I want to cross too!

I don’t want to be left behind all alone! I might get lonely!

There can be no spiritual elitism in Buddhism.