torrenova Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Just wondering how far technology is away from being able to harness sufficient solar energy and store it efficiently to run air conditioners at night when there is no sunlight. Are we there yet but just prohibitively expensive or what ? Feeding lights and water pumps in the day is hardly knocking anything off the electric bill but killing the aircon costs certainly would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tattoodrob Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 long way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Just wondering how far technology is away from being able to harness sufficient solar energy and store it efficiently to run air conditioners at night when there is no sunlight. Are we there yet but just prohibitively expensive or what ?Feeding lights and water pumps in the day is hardly knocking anything off the electric bill but killing the aircon costs certainly would. technically no problem at all but (as you mentioned) prohibitively expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZZZ Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Something for the home hobbyist: Build a solar powered steam engine or turbine with mirrors/magnifying glass to provide steam. Power aircon compressor directly from this device, or via an electric generator. Feed the cold to a big, insulated, water tank to store the cold. Redistribute the cold via heat exchanger in the cold water tank to where it's needed when it's needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 ideal would be to ship the "cold" to Antarctica for storage and get it back by courier service if and when needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSquigle Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 Thats just silly, I much prefer zzz's idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundman Posted January 17, 2008 Share Posted January 17, 2008 From recent research: About 250k - 300k Baht to set up a solar system that will give you enough power to run a household with two smallish aircons, all appliances, hot water heater, lighting etc. eg. monthly power spend of about 2500 - 4000B. About 4 years to pay for itself. Cheers, Soundman. Some links in this recent thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raro Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 I heard about stirling engines can do the trick. Does anybody know more about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEENTHEREDONETHAT Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 The biggest problem is storing the power, batteries are expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pomthai Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 Instead of batteries, use the solar generated electricity to drive a motor to drive a pump, pumping oil into a hydraulic accumulator. Release hydraulic fluid/pressure as needed (when its dark) to drive motor which has just become a generator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raro Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Met a German guy the other day in Pattaya who claims to be able to build houses that do not require aircons. He is just about setting up his business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Met a German guy the other day in Pattaya who claims to be able to build houses that do not require aircons. He is just about setting up his business. yeah right. vee tchermanns are best in enchineering. i klaim zat i kann konvert lead into gold. und i'm chust about setting up my business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary A Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 From recent research:About 250k - 300k Baht to set up a solar system that will give you enough power to run a household with two smallish aircons, all appliances, hot water heater, lighting etc. eg. monthly power spend of about 2500 - 4000B. About 4 years to pay for itself. Cheers, Soundman. Some links in this recent thread. You obviously are talking about a different country than Thailand. I was very interested in installing a solar system. I got prices from two Thai companies and both companies were priced at 180,000 baht for a 450 watt system. That's not big enough to run more that some lights and a small refrigerator. The output is so small that it's difficult to even project any period of payback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cuban Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Sorry I don't have time to find the link at the moment, but there was a Thai guy that build an energy efficent house that although used some electrical power was designed with solar panels (both for hot water and photo voltaic) on the roof space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithson Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 From recent research:About 250k - 300k Baht to set up a solar system that will give you enough power to run a household with two smallish aircons, all appliances, hot water heater, lighting etc. eg. monthly power spend of about 2500 - 4000B. About 4 years to pay for itself. Cheers, Soundman. Some links in this recent thread. I was following that thread and would be very interested in the results of your research, as mine hasn't been that fruitful. One of the companies listed in the thread told me a 2k solar unit would be around 1m baht, while a 1k would be 600k - 700k. Neither of these units would be powerful enough for air con. They also had a solar water heater that cost 100k. There is another company making room coolers that look similar to hydronic heating, except using cold water. They claimed it was 70% cheaper than reg air con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundman Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Ok - after two weeks intensive research & pricing of components..... The figures I posted above were "govt. assisted" figures for a smallish grid connected system downloaded from the net & on reflection, are not at all realistic for Thailand. Pricing in Thailand for a 5kw grid connected system with sellback (don't have any info on this feature or how it works with the PEA): PV panels (0.8m2) 100 @ 5700B - 570,000B 5kw Grid connected inverter 1 @ 98,000B Charge contollers: Optional - to be used with power storage feature. Negligble cost. (about 5,500B per 48V 30amp unit) Power Storage: Optional - about 40 12V - 120+ Amp hour batteries. (Around 70,000B for 40 Batteries) Sun Tracking devices: Optional - will increase output by up to 50% depending on PV array. (No pricing yet) Installation costs. Land costs. Maintenance costs. (Cleaning, battery sulphation, PV array manual adjustment, etc.) This system will produce between 7,500 & 13,000 kw/hours (PEA units) of energy per year depending on array & local environmental conditions. On current pricing without any govt. assistance - that means a payback period of well over ten years. Now if you are in a remote area - and it is going to cost you major money to get an electricty connection, as I have seen a few paying for in other threads on this forum - solar may well be a viable alternative, considering a fuel powered generator is hideously expensive to run over long periods of time. Or - if you have researched this from my point of view - to set up a regular everday business where a slight cost advantage will allow you to overtake your competitors on items with very slim margins - solar power generation certainly has merit. Hope this is some help. Cheers, Soundman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptuan Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Met a German guy the other day in Pattaya who claims to be able to build houses that do not require aircons. He is just about setting up his business. yeah right. vee tchermanns are best in enchineering. i klaim zat i kann konvert lead into gold. und i'm chust about setting up my business Oh yea of little faith! About 80 years ago some savvy western building engineers built a beautiful castle in Death Valley, where temperatures commonly hover between 100 and 115 degrees (Farenheit) in the summer. They built the castle so that it would stay cool without the use of air con. (Doubt it if they even had it, then). The cooling system is ingenious. I have visited the castle twice (now run by the National Park Service), once in the dead heat of summer, and once in April. Both times it was quite comfortable, a welcome respite from the searing heat of its surroundings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think_too_mut Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Just wondering how far technology is away from being able to harness sufficient solar energy and store it efficiently to run air conditioners at night when there is no sunlight. Are we there yet but just prohibitively expensive or what ?Feeding lights and water pumps in the day is hardly knocking anything off the electric bill but killing the aircon costs certainly would. Solar generated electricity: 16c per Kwh Coal burning generated electricity: 3c Kwh When it comes to 6c, solar electricity will become viable. Then it will connect to the grid and deliver/receive from there, no storing in batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary A Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 The main reason I was very interested in solar power is because I have a piece of land that is quite scenic but has no electricity. The government project is apparently no longer available. There are a number of the three panel installations in this area but they have been here for a long time. I have no idea if they still work. The best most efficient way I have found is a bank of batteries on a trailer with a generator beside them. The generator charges the batteries and is powered by the power take off from the tractor. Why a trailer? Because the thieves would steal anything of value. The little diesel will charge the batteries in a couple of hours and my little hideaway can run off the batteries for a day or two. I drive the tractor and trailer back home when there is no one there. And no, I haven't done this yet. I'm not smart enough to build it on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithson Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Soundman, thanks for the info, very helpful. Do you solar as coming down considerably in the next few years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rchapstick Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 (edited) Talked to a VC about this recently, thinking that Moore's Law would drive down prices over time. The problem is that the semiconductor manufacturing capacity (current and projected, worldwide) is sold our for at least 18 months. No reason for manufacturers to decrease prices. Beyond that, price reductions (less likely) and conversion rate increases (more likely) are possible. Edited February 16, 2008 by rchapstick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundman Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Soundman, thanks for the info, very helpful. Do you solar as coming down considerably in the next few years? I actually asked this very question from the sales staff at a local PV cell manufacturing company. I asked for historical price graph & future price prediction. On this point the staff were either not able to supply that info. or were being less than helpful for whatever reason. No reply received. As to the electronics side - inverters etc. (a local industry that I have extensive experience with) - the prices quoted to me appear to be heavily inflated retail prices. The sum of components to make a 5kw inverter is about 4000 - 6500B. They are selling it for 98,000B. You can actually buy 2kw inverter 12V or 24V - 220V in the electronics markets in Bkk for about 5000B. I have bought quite a few of these units over the years to make crazy car stereo's for friends. Same logic may also apply to the PV cells - I have no idea. So - to answer your question - I don't know if a few more competeing business's on the manufacturing side would bring prices down substancially - but the current production facilities are at capacity - I don't see the price coming down substancially without government intervention. Solar generated electricity: 16c per KwhCoal burning generated electricity: 3c Kwh That all depends how you account for the initial investment cost. If you expense it over 1 year the cost would appear to be 100B per unit. Over three years 33 baht per unit. Over ten years 10 baht per unit. Over 30 years 3 baht per unit. Write off the cost as a tax deduction against other areas of your business & hopefully get legeslation passed for govt. assistance or carbon credits (legal - no idea ). Cheers, Soundman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregb Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 PV panels (0.8m2) 100 @ 5700B - 570,000B Wow....did I understand this correctly? These are 50 watt solar panels for only 5700 baht? That's 114 baht/$3.50 USD per watt! That's rivaling the prices I've seen on E-Bay for slightly damaged or blemished panels. Ultra cheap. I think it is time to stock up. Where did you find them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEENTHEREDONETHAT Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 yeah right. vee tchermanns are best in enchineering. i klaim zat i kann konvert lead into gold. und i'm chust about setting up my business Naam have I got a deal for you. I've got 50 kilo of lead that I'd be willing to let you have for only 25 kilo of gold. Just think of the profit potentiaL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundman Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 PV panels (0.8m2) 100 @ 5700B - 570,000B Wow....did I understand this correctly? These are 50 watt solar panels for only 5700 baht? That's 114 baht/$3.50 USD per watt! That's rivaling the prices I've seen on E-Bay for slightly damaged or blemished panels. Ultra cheap. I think it is time to stock up. Where did you find them? Yes that is the correct bulk 100+ panel (not retail) price I have been quoted, however, I think the company still has plenty of wiggle room on that. http://www.bangkoksolar.com/ Note to others: If any body is looking to buy solar systems - maybe it would be worthwhile doing a collective purchase to get a much better buying rate. Anybody interested PM me or post in this thread. Cheers, Soundman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Met a German guy the other day in Pattaya who claims to be able to build houses that do not require aircons. He is just about setting up his business. yeah right. vee tchermanns are best in enchineering. i klaim zat i kann konvert lead into gold. und i'm chust about setting up my business Oh yea of little faith! About 80 years ago some savvy western building engineers built a beautiful castle in Death Valley, where temperatures commonly hover between 100 and 115 degrees (Farenheit) in the summer. They built the castle so that it would stay cool without the use of air con. (Doubt it if they even had it, then). The cooling system is ingenious. I have visited the castle twice (now run by the National Park Service), once in the dead heat of summer, and once in April. Both times it was quite comfortable, a welcome respite from the searing heat of its surroundings. please define "cool" and "comfortable" in degrees Celsius or Fahrenheit. when i went from ambient temperature of 45ºC in Jubail, Saudi Arabia into a factory which was airconditioned at 36ºC it felt "cool" and "comfortable". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregb Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Yes that is the correct bulk 100+ panel (not retail) price I have been quoted, however, I think the company still has plenty of wiggle room on that.<a href="http://www.bangkoksolar.com/" target="_blank">http://www.bangkoksolar.com/</a> Note to others: If any body is looking to buy solar systems - maybe it would be worthwhile doing a collective purchase to get a much better buying rate. Anybody interested PM me or post in this thread. Cheers, Soundman. Checked out the website. From the online information, their 0.8 sq. meter panels are the BS40, or 40 watt peak panels, not 50 watt. So if I've understood everything correctly, 100 of them would be a 4kW system, not 5Kw. That raises the price to 143 baht/watt (about $4.33 USD). My dreams of shipping container loads west are gone at that price. Is the 50 watt panel possibly a new product that isn't yet listed on their website? No price is too low for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toptuan Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Met a German guy the other day in Pattaya who claims to be able to build houses that do not require aircons. He is just about setting up his business. yeah right. vee tchermanns are best in enchineering. i klaim zat i kann konvert lead into gold. und i'm chust about setting up my business Oh yea of little faith! About 80 years ago some savvy western building engineers built a beautiful castle in Death Valley, where temperatures commonly hover between 100 and 115 degrees (Farenheit) in the summer. They built the castle so that it would stay cool without the use of air con. (Doubt it if they even had it, then). The cooling system is ingenious. I have visited the castle twice (now run by the National Park Service), once in the dead heat of summer, and once in April. Both times it was quite comfortable, a welcome respite from the searing heat of its surroundings. please define "cool" and "comfortable" in degrees Celsius or Fahrenheit. when i went from ambient temperature of 45ºC in Jubail, Saudi Arabia into a factory which was airconditioned at 36ºC it felt "cool" and "comfortable". Sorry, Dude, but as a tourist I don't usually walk around with a thermometer up my arse to check it every now and then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlovesnuk Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 PV panels (0.8m2) 100 @ 5700B - 570,000B Wow....did I understand this correctly? These are 50 watt solar panels for only 5700 baht? That's 114 baht/$3.50 USD per watt! That's rivaling the prices I've seen on E-Bay for slightly damaged or blemished panels. Ultra cheap. I think it is time to stock up. Where did you find them? Yes that is the correct bulk 100+ panel (not retail) price I have been quoted, however, I think the company still has plenty of wiggle room on that. http://www.bangkoksolar.com/ Note to others: If any body is looking to buy solar systems - maybe it would be worthwhile doing a collective purchase to get a much better buying rate. Anybody interested PM me or post in this thread. Cheers, Soundman. hi this is my first post as a member of thaivisa, thank you, thank you very much (british sense of humour)! i m also intrigued and interested in a few projects, now that im planning on staying in thailand one of which is to build a house, and subsequently a guest house. the guest house i hope to be able to make eco friendly as this guest house is also my home i want to sustain it within the environment and in business for my and my familys longevity(i am only 24). therefore i have been researching into solar panels(not in price structure) but in general information and legislation and conduct. i hope to power each lodge with enough power to run lights and a fan. i have an interesting link for reading about thailands options for sustainable energy under the energy conservation fund: //www.eppo.go.th/encon/Strategy/encon-ReportVolun-E.html i would like to add to the comment made by soundman that i would be interested in buying some cells as a collective purchase, but not until next year, as this is when i have funds availible for everything! i believe strongly that solar panels introduced now will safe guard my family's expense over the long haul and to those aquiring the house when gone. i dont drive, i dont buy needless things and would rather make things for myself as there is far more enjoyment in this experiance, in these savings i value that the cost of a sustained supply is paramount. sourcing and research into price is a given. lastly does the free trade agreement with japan have any handle on the importation of solar technology for us now, or is this not in connection with what either country has by way of means or legalities. thank you for listening to my nonsense, please carry on with the sensibilites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maizefarmer Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 (edited) The problem with aircon from solar is the high KW alternating current and Amperage needed to drive the compressor. Whats the typical domestic ac unit running on - I guess around 3Kw - 5Kw ? Right - 15 - 25 x 200W panels will give you Kw but you need to store that as dc, then turn it into ac - at which point you'll have plenty voltage - but no-where near sufficent current. God knows how many panels you'd need to run a single typical domestic aircon unit but one thing is certain - it ain't going to be any less than about 40 - 50 x 200W panels, and it most certainly won't be worth it - not even in terms of the savings against the cost of electricity currently over the expected lifepsan of the panels. Currently it is just not practical to run aircon as a stand-alone unit off photvoltaic cells. Someone else mentioned the idea of solar energy - as in focused to generate steam. The problem is that as many of you may know, while it is possible to generate around 3,5Kw from around 2m square of focused sunlight, by the time you convert that to mechanical or electrical energy your realworld useable energy will be no more than around 150 - 250watts at most. For the time being domestic mains is the cheapest, easiet and most practical form of energy in the house. Edited February 20, 2008 by Maizefarmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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