3 Estonian men involved in violence on Pattaya Walking Street

[Claymore]

Guess the farangs of the Pattaya Volunteer Tourist Police did not help out as they did not want to be beaten up as well.

Bit short of into from Pattaya City News considering their boss is one of the head farang honchos. Liked the pictures of them all in uniform paying their respects the other day.

Seems they missed better video opportunity.

PCN did not mention the club involved. Also no suprises here I think.

[Arkady]

I wonder if any arrests will ever be made. There were a lot of people around and police should be able to get some suspects, if the've a mind too. There have been many incidents like this over the years involving killings and maimings of bar customers who got into a dispute with bar staff and were set on by a pack from adjoining bars but I can't remember a single case of a prosecution. Walking St would be a good place to instal security cameras. The Estonians behaved foolishly but still deserve justice.

[Bruprince]

Walking Street is a notorious red light district that attracts sex tourists and perverts from all parts of the world. The place is teaming with whores, pimps, drug addicts, thieves, muggers, pick pockets, scam artists and violent criminals, many carrying knives or guns.

Areas such as these, be they in Los Angeles, Berlin, Hamburg, Amsterdam or wherever are going to be dangerous places to be if you cross the locals.

I am not defending what happened, and maybe if it had occurred elsewhere the thugs might have used a bit more restraint to ensure they didn’t have a murder on their hands. But this is a 3^rd world country, where the police are in league with the criminals and corruption rules.

So frankly what else could you expect if a few foreigners decided to take on the locals? The result was inevitable, and would be so almost anywhere in the world in similar circumstances in a similar environment.

Walking Street is a cesspit, and if you decide to enter the pit you have to be prepared for the possible outcome. There are plenty of decent places in Thailand where you can walk around and enjoy life in relative safety.

RIP to the unfortunate victim

Well said Mobi.

[meadow]

If you read Estonian.. http://www.ekspress.ee/2008/01/21/eesti-uu...ne-koik-on-elus

The guys involved contacted the biggest weekly newspaper in Estonia and said all are alive. This was confirmed by an Estonian who lives in Pattaya and visited the guy at the hospital.

Their story contradicts the report in Pattaya media of course.. (not implying anything on either party by the way)

Very strange, but I can't read it.....

Would be interesting now to know the real story!

Long story short, Estonians say they were pushed around by some Thai for no apparent reason. They reported to Tourist Police and went to search for the Thai together with someone from the police but couldn't find the guy. So the police left but Estonians were determined to find the Thai. They split during the search and suddenly 2 of them saw a scuffle at the other end of the street. By the time they reached there, the 3rd Estonian had been attacked with a broken bottle and was wounded in the artery. He was taken to the hospital but survived, contrary to reports, and is not in serious condition.

[selftaopath]

Some bars will do anything to get the punters in, including turning a blind eye to heavy handed touts and doormen, Close the bar in question for a indefinite period, ban any partner or manager of the business from any other such business within the Pattaya area as a deterrent to others.

Also put a ban on the premises being used as a bar , etc, ever again, to stop it being reopened under so called "New Owners".

BB

Thanks for your post. As I read it I wondered what it would look like if EVERY farang in Pattaya "boycotted" walking street for ONLY one night. :-) Not I bet that would be "noticed" by ????? But never gonna happen.

[bsided69]

The incident, which is now a murder investigation, occurred only meters away from the Tourist Police Unit.

So the guys didn't want to go in the bar, the Thais got hostile, the guys make a complaint and are told to take it to the police station.

Basically a big FO.

The guys get angry and return to sort it out themselves as they see that the authorities aren't interested.

They are outnumbered 5 to 1, viciously beaten and one murdered within metres of the Tourist police point and no one is held responsible.

What a f@cking sick country Thailand has turned into.

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

Thats a bit strong. We dont know all the facts. It can and does happen in any country. Thailand is a great country and if you dont think so go back to where you came from for a few months and you will see that.

[SaengSom]

I have been witness of the following scene some weeks before:

In Buayai was one of those typical festivals also with sport events and, most attractive to the youth, a bumping car booth.

This place was surrounded by young thai boys in between 13 and 21, i guess and also girls in the same age.

As I know in Thailand it is not allowed to sell alcohol to underaged but most of the kids were drunk. And police, uniformed as well as civil clothed were nearby watching the scene.

I was curious about this place as i´ve never seen such in TH.

My GF and her friends told me not to go too close as this place is the "warm up place" for the guys to start fighting.

Knowing about that we went back to our house.

On the way there we watched a guy, obviously drunk, driving his motorbike with a minimum speed of 80-100Km/h through the walking people.

He was shouting and he swang a big, really big knive.

50 meters behind the point he passed us i saw that he was coming back from anywhere carrying a bigger knive than before -It was such agri-cultural used knives with a grip that is about 100 cm. The knive itself also was about that length-

He was drunk. Really drunk, i mean.

Stopping his bike in a hurry, leaving the engine running he jumped off it, ran to a group of 10 guys hitting them with the knive without hurting anyone.

Then he got surrounded by the guys, slammed down to the ground and all guys, now about 35, were beating and kicking him.

As I said he was laying on the ground already but all the guys around him did not stop for about 2-3 minutes.

At the end the last guy kicked him two times directly into his face.

I went to help but i was stopped by my girlfriend and other Thais around.

I´ve seen the guy laying down bleeding all over from cuttings and also stitches.

SO.

At the end I have to say this:

As long as Thai youth does not learn to behave and to respect live,

as long as Thai TV is showing american made movies full of violence,

as long as Thai shops sell the legal drug alcohol to underaged,

as long as Thai police is watching the youth getting drunk and driving motor bikes,

as long as such stupid behavior goes on day in day out also foreigners will be killed by Thais that feel powerful enough to to what thy want to do.

Thai men grow up fighting. Its nothing special for them.

A dead person more or less - who gives a shit for that, who cares?

Visitors in Thailand should get handed out a small book if they intent to visit "dangerous places" that tell them about all the cases that could happen to them.

But even then we have to read about foreigners all day, I guess...

[grantbkk]

I wonder how three drunk Thai men would party on the streets of Estonia?

Alcohol, testosterone and the some of the deadly sins. The only thing that could make this worse is if more people died or there was an argument over a girl. I lived in Pattaya on the Walking Street for a year and was able to observe all manner of conflict until the wee hours of every morning. There is no excuse for what happened and all 15 Thais should do the time. Time and time again on any thread of blog tourists are warned not to directly confront the locals as the consequences could be dire. I've actually never seen a fair fight out of the ring here. When the men are the same size as the girls it sort of makes sense that they travel in packs of 3 to 5. That is the way they roll and that is a fact in all of the "tourist sites".

It never ceases to amaze me that every time we discuss one of these murders some people begin to attack America or UK.

[Bardamu]

It seems quite natural that some Thais working in the sleaze pit of Thailand, after supressing so much anger at having to put up with incorrigible, decadent, mindless, violent - the list goes, i've been there a few times - foreigners will vent their ill feeling towards tourists when they have a chance, i.e. when they don't throw the first stone and so won't lose face.

It's easily discernible in some places, the resentment towards foreigners. Maybe if you worked in a bar - was paid peanuts - in your own country and had to put up with richer, drunker, taller foreigners with filthy mouths and hardly any respect for your culture and traditions, you might also wait for the day to give them a right kicking. I'm not accusing the Estonians of anything, just making a point that Pattaya does attract many people like this and so certain Thais are waiting for a chance to get back.

What happened is terrible . . . but sadly, it is understandable. It happnes more often than ever up here (CM) and it will keep happening. The only places i go where the old Thai smile is real is 'baan nork' . . . where we have yet to mess up, stain and tempt with gold coins. We are like a disease to them at times . . . globalisation is not welcome either, no one wants to change, but still, it won't stop happening . . . and they know they need our money, because they have come to rely on it . . . and need our western luxuries . . . they too are greedy and so like an addiction, they need us . . .but ideally - as a whole, not as singulars - we are hardly welcome by the majority, an addiction is usually not ideal . . . if it weren't for our money, we wouldnt be welcome, look at the visa stipulations, we are not welcome without cash, the provisos stuck to the office board at immigration states this.

Like i said, you need only compare this to a similar situation in your own country . . . an invasion of people with different ideals, religion, manners etc . . . shouting at you in their language that you don't understand, dragging your young girls around like dogs on a leash . . . throwing money at you to keep you quiet . . . i actually think the Thais, in general, are very tolerant . . . but maybe tolerance is just suppression and an explosion is always around the corner. I'm not making an excuse for the people that take it out on foreigners, they should know better, should adhere to some personal ethic and get over the resentment . . . but they don't and that is why this happens.

So what to do? Christ knows, ride out the wave and try and keep out of bother.

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

I agree - Walking Street is a sleazy place.

[grahamhc]

Slightly off topic, but relevent for safety and scuffles

A couple of days ago, I was in Walking Street by Soi Diamond and heard a great crash of glass. Like everyone else I looked round and it came from outside the Family Mart between Soi Diamond and Soi 15.

Only two guys appeared to be involved - it may have been a scuffle or maybe one had slipped and the other helping, but the point of this was that the glass door of the Family Mart had shattered. BUT NOT IN A SAFE WAY.

There was a hole in the lower half of the door and huge shards of glass radiated from the hole - sharp and lethal. One would have expected either toughened or laminated glass, but no, the cheapskates had used normal window glass. Had it been toughened glass, he would have bounced of it. If one of those shards had fallen and hit somone , they could have bled to death before an ambulance could get there...

[OzMan_Bkk]

Let's face it you blokes, we all know what Pattaya is and the sort of tourists it attracts. We also know what attracts them too. I found it amusing that some here described it a family holiday destination. Fair dinkum, what sort of disfunctional family would pick Pattaya for their two weeks of holiday ? Perhaps The Addams Family ?

However it doesn't mean there are not places by a beach for families. HuaHin and Cha-Am are more geared towards families were would like holidays without blood in the streets. Leave Pattaya to the drunken, mindless trash. They are a good fit.

[R123]

this story again confirms how useless the tourist police are.......

[koheesti]

If you read Estonian.. http://www.ekspress.ee/2008/01/21/eesti-uu...ne-koik-on-elus

The guys involved contacted the biggest weekly newspaper in Estonia and said all are alive. This was confirmed by an Estonian who lives in Pattaya and visited the guy at the hospital.

Their story contradicts the report in Pattaya media of course.. (not implying anything on either party by the way)

Very strange, but I can't read it.....

Would be interesting now to know the real story!

I can't read most of it and I used to live there. The guy's name though is Andrei which is Russian, not Estonian. I think it says the other two were his brother and a friend. So probably they are all Russians who are Estonian citizens. Since it's unlikely any Estonians will read this, I'd like to clarify that if ethnic Estonians walk into your bar I'm 99.9% sure you'll have no problem. They are good people and don't look for trouble. And like I wrote on the first page, Russians don't usually take crap off anyone. I also want to point out that in Estonia when a fight would break out, it wasn't uncommon for someone to pull out a mobile phone and call for back-up. I think the diff here is that while in the West they might call for help to kick your butt, here they call help to kill you.

[Bowery99]

I have no idea what it is your trying to say?

Although I agree there is a bit of US bashing going on here. I guess because the US has such a rep with guns and people just think there is crime everywhere.

Oh well, it is just one of the reasons I left. Too dangerous at times but not really in general, just a matter of being careful.

Seems the same in Thailand, I don't go down in the deep south. I like breathing.

It is common sense, stay out of bar fights, duh.

I saw some ahole brits on Khaosan not too long ago making trouble and getting in a fight with some CD dealer, guess what happened 15 Thais came out and guess who lost. The best part was when this beefy Farang who owns a falafal stand and saw everything that happened got into it too. The 2 Brits were much bigger and just being stupid bullies.

They could have been stabbed as well, hel_l sometimes someone just accendently gets killed in these situations taking a punch and falling back on a table.

Just have to be smart.

Wow lots of US bashing in this thread with the usual apologists.

Yes it happens in the US. We know the US is almost the size of Pattaya. Yes it happens in Amsterdam, tourists being killed and nobody is found. We all know that Amsterdam is the size of Pattaya too. Yes in your hometown tourists are stabbed and killed every other week at your local bar. At least we know what sorts you hang with. Yes he died near where the tourist police volunteers hang out on Walking Street and they pointed them to the cop shop to lay a charge. What is their purpose in any event? Thought they solved tourist problems. We know! We know! Who cares!

When we try and justify murder, attempted murder or manslaughter with it happens everywhere - then we are a slippery slope to stupidity. If you are willing to give up a bit of your security for a bit of 'freedom' then frankly you deserve neither.

[stao]

Estonian man dies following attack on Walking Street

PATTAYA: -- A disturbing incident occurred on Walking Street in the early hours of Sunday Morning which was initially dealt with by the Tourist Police based on the street. Three men from Estonia made a complaint at the Tourist Police Mobile Unit regarding a confrontation with three Thai Men in Soi 15. It is thought the men were being ushered into a Show Bar but decided at the last minute that they did not want to go.

The Thai men became angry and a fight ensued. The men were told to make their way to Pattaya Police Station to make a report, however they decided to take matters into their own hands and went back to confront the Thai men. It is thought that more than 15 men set-upon the three Estonian Men.

One managed to run away, a second was hit over the head with a steal pole and a third man was stabbed in the leg with a broken bottle. A major artery in his leg was severed and he was rushed to Hospital. Later on Sunday he died from the injury according to medical staff at the Pattaya Memorial Hospital.

The incident, which is now a murder investigation, occurred only meters away from the Tourist Police Unit and is now being investigated by Pattaya Police and the Tourist Police as the hunt for the attackers continues. We understand that as of Monday Afternoon, no arrests had been made in connection with the attack.

Pattaya city News

monday 21st January 2008

Pattaya... What To Do... Easy Answer

I took SCUBA training here while stationed up country with the US Army in 1968. At that time Pattaya was a sleepy little place with just 2 bars at the South end of the beach and a US Army R & R center at the North end of the beach. I have been in Thailand a long time and understand most of what there is to understand about Thailand as my family is Thai and Thailand is my home.

Assault in Pattaya seems to be a common occurrence now-days. Almost happened to me last time I was in Pattaya by some drugged up Brit

Guess he ran into some people a few days later who needed a bit of exercise. His departure was delayed due to hospitalization required after the encounter

Funny thing... I have never hear of this sort of problem between the local foreigners & the local Thais so...

Thai & Local Foreigners Tale Note: In my opinion there are some tourists who come to Pattaya now days to not only have a bit of fun but to get into fights & such.

Tourists Take Note: Come to Pattaya bring money & a smile enjoy but... Leave your aggression at home. Deciding to punch-out the locals (not all of whom are Thai by the way) may be a really bad idea

[moo9]

Slightly off topic, but relevent for safety and scuffles

A couple of days ago, I was in Walking Street by Soi Diamond and heard a great crash of glass. Like everyone else I looked round and it came from outside the Family Mart between Soi Diamond and Soi 15.

Only two guys appeared to be involved - it may have been a scuffle or maybe one had slipped and the other helping, but the point of this was that the glass door of the Family Mart had shattered. BUT NOT IN A SAFE WAY.

There was a hole in the lower half of the door and huge shards of glass radiated from the hole - sharp and lethal. One would have expected either toughened or laminated glass, but no, the cheapskates had used normal window glass. Had it been toughened glass, he would have bounced of it. If one of those shards had fallen and hit somone , they could have bled to death before an ambulance could get there...

Funny what you worry about

TiT = This is Thailand!

Broken manhole covers, potholes, faulty electric wiring, you name it.

Love it or leave, nobody is forced to stay here. The nonstop complaining will not improve the situation, but only increase the own frustration.

Moo9

[meadow]

If you read Estonian.. http://www.ekspress.ee/2008/01/21/eesti-uu...ne-koik-on-elus

The guys involved contacted the biggest weekly newspaper in Estonia and said all are alive. This was confirmed by an Estonian who lives in Pattaya and visited the guy at the hospital.

Their story contradicts the report in Pattaya media of course.. (not implying anything on either party by the way)

Very strange, but I can't read it.....

Would be interesting now to know the real story!

I can't read most of it and I used to live there. The guy's name though is Andrei which is Russian, not Estonian. I think it says the other two were his brother and a friend. So probably they are all Russians who are Estonian citizens. Since it's unlikely any Estonians will read this, I'd like to clarify that if ethnic Estonians walk into your bar I'm 99.9% sure you'll have no problem. They are good people and don't look for trouble. And like I wrote on the first page, Russians don't usually take crap off anyone. I also want to point out that in Estonia when a fight would break out, it wasn't uncommon for someone to pull out a mobile phone and call for back-up. I think the diff here is that while in the West they might call for help to kick your butt, here they call help to kill you.

Care to clarify what you mean by "here they call help to kill you"

[moo9]

Funny thing... I have never hear of this sort of problem between the local foreigners & the local Thais so...

Fully agree

[easyride]

Where does the conclusion that the police were not interested come from? Is it not so that in nearly every country a statement has the be made at the police station, so it makes sense to me that that is where they were sent to.

Back home the same things happen quite often, some people are not happy with something and go back to get their right, and they do get beaten up in comparable environments (sleazy areas of town), and are always outnumbered by the locals. Why would they give anyone a fair fight, that is not what these kind of people offer, all over the world.

It was the police box at the start of Walking Street. This is normally manned by our heroic farang volunteer police strutting around in thier black unifoms. No wonder these Estonians got short shrift from them. RIP

[nikster]

As long as Thai youth does not learn to behave and to respect live,

as long as Thai TV is showing american made movies full of violence,

as long as Thai shops sell the legal drug alcohol to underaged,

as long as Thai police is watching the youth getting drunk and driving motor bikes,

as long as such stupid behavior goes on day in day out also foreigners will be killed by Thais that feel powerful enough to to what thy want to do.

Thai men grow up fighting. Its nothing special for them.

Yup. I am not going to say anything about why this is - macho-ism, violent movies, saving face, all seem pretty unlikely explanations for kicking some guy on the ground.

But I have seen the same thing up here in the country, happens at any major festival and/or event. Thai youth from the villages comes in big numbers, gets drunk - as, I have to say, they would in Europe - and then is actively looking for a fight. At the end there's a huge group fight, but more often than not it's a very large number of people beating up a very small number of people. Any weapons available are used.

Thais or farangs better don't get involved or they join the fun. If police gets involved - rarely! - it gets even more dangerous because police will start shooting wildly before doing anything else, and even more people get hurt / die.

So I hope the story is that said Estonian survived, perhaps having learnt a lesson. Thailand was always a place where it's very safe except if you actively go out and seek trouble, which is when it turns deadly very quickly.

[Greenside]

Let's face it you blokes, we all know what Pattaya is and the sort of tourists it attracts. We also know what attracts them too. I found it amusing that some here described it a family holiday destination. Fair dinkum, what sort of disfunctional family would pick Pattaya for their two weeks of holiday ? Perhaps The Addams Family ?

However it doesn't mean there are not places by a beach for families. HuaHin and Cha-Am are more geared towards families were would like holidays without blood in the streets. Leave Pattaya to the drunken, mindless trash. They are a good fit.

Actually, you'll find mention of numerous hotels in the area as "family hotels" in package tour marketing in Europe (well the UK at least) and it always amazed me how they got away with it. Built in disappointment for the customers I'd have thought. Also did you ever notice those harassed looking guys walking along with their frowning wives in tow and trying not to catch the eyes of the "Handsome Man" brigade? How did they end up in Sin City?

[Nana]

The incident, which is now a murder investigation, occurred only meters away from the Tourist Police Unit.

So the guys didn't want to go in the bar, the Thais got hostile, the guys make a complaint and are told to take it to the police station.

Basically a big FO.

The guys get angry and return to sort it out themselves as they see that the authorities aren't interested.

They are outnumbered 5 to 1, viciously beaten and one murdered within metres of the Tourist police point and no one is held responsible.

What a f@cking sick country Thailand has turned into.

You can try and rationalise it or compare it with other countries problems, but this is an all time low.

umm did we read the same article? the THREE Estonians went back to deal with the ONE Thai guy, that's 3:1 ... THEN the numbers change the other way ...

"Three men from Estonia made a complaint at the Tourist Police Mobile Unit regarding a confrontation with three Thai Men in Soi 15." Pasted from the article.

Thats 3:3. But then again, as you said. Maybe you didn't read the same article.

[marshbags]

Estonian man dies following attack on Walking Street

PATTAYA: -- A disturbing incident occurred on Walking Street in the early hours of Sunday Morning which was initially dealt with by the Tourist Police based on the street. Three men from Estonia made a complaint at the Tourist Police Mobile Unit regarding a confrontation with three Thai Men in Soi 15. It is thought the men were being ushered into a Show Bar but decided at the last minute that they did not want to go.

The Thai men became angry and a fight ensued. The men were told to make their way to Pattaya Police Station to make a report, however they decided to take matters into their own hands and went back to confront the Thai men. It is thought that more than 15 men set-upon the three Estonian Men.

One managed to run away, a second was hit over the head with a steal pole and a third man was stabbed in the leg with a broken bottle. A major artery in his leg was severed and he was rushed to Hospital. Later on Sunday he died from the injury according to medical staff at the Pattaya Memorial Hospital.

The incident, which is now a murder investigation, occurred only meters away from the Tourist Police Unit and is now being investigated by Pattaya Police and the Tourist Police as the hunt for the attackers continues. We understand that as of Monday Afternoon, no arrests had been made in connection with the attack.

Pattaya city News

monday 21st January 2008

IF this article is correct and this incident is laid out as kosha.

The victims did not warrant being set upon by a gang of the local thugs we are all too familiar with.

They should definitely have been accompanied to the T. Police,s main offices well away from the incident., and at least been given time to calm down and possibly defuse the situation.

It is unbelievable how many are slagging them, dismissing the incident and the cost of at least one life as if they had been responsible for the outcome.

Forgive me, but my take on the article and what followed was down to the Thai,s and they and their like need to be taken to account and banged away and the blame put were it belongs.

Pontificate. idiots, stupid ect ect., some respect for freedom and life you guys appear to have, <deleted>

Perhaps the full story will eventually be available and like many other such incidents the horrific loss of life will be chalked on the board and then become yet another sad reminder that no one gives a fukc.

Me, i am getting really pissed off with all the unruly reports of this nature, not only in Pattaya, but many other tourist areas.

I,m an old soldier when it comes to knowing the usual outcome of these confrontations and yes i do keep my cool and get out of the area fast.

Tourists however do not and why this should be used as an excuse for this tragedy is beyond me.

On the contrary according to several so called wise men, it was their fault for not being aware of the fact that x number of Cowardly Thais are in waiting to kick / beat / stab / shoot the life out of them, for little excuse or non at all.

Shame on the ones who have posted in this fashion and instead of being concerned about repeated attacks, seemingly are dismissive of it as just another idiot ( not my description but a re quote ) who was to blame for not understanding the locals or the usual outcome.

Stop using quotes that reduce this to insignificance and the equivalent of not giving a fukc and if you care about life show a bit of respect for the loss of it.

At least wait until the full facts come out, that is if ever they do, before adopting this don,t give a fukc attitude.

RIP and i hope this time we get a just result for once.

marshbags

By the way, i have never witnessed a one on one when a Thai is involved on my travels in Thailand, for those who think otherwise.

This really is becoming an all to common accurance and needs addressing !!!!!!!!!

Edited January 22, 2008 by marshbags

[cosmont]

Good guys go to Heaven, bad guys go to Pattaya

[meelousee]

This is Thailand, what do you expect? The ole saying TIT tough shiX dont like leave, and I will very soon visas, ecomomy and the rest have gone to hel_l,,,, as expected. That is the way it is Thais hate farangs and show it every day in every way.

OFW Bye

This by the way happens EVERY day some place in the land of slime

[thaiexp]

The tourist police should have dealt with it right away and filed details of the complaint.

CCTV is long overdue in Pattaya!

The Thais are experts at lying and avoiding responsibility for anything, (see what happens when a bus driver hits your staionary car) andthe Police are corrupt as sin.

Webcams are now dirt cheap and can, and should, be used as evidence as well as a powerful deterant.

That said though, the golden rule in Thailand hasn't changed for centuries.

#1. Dont mess with the locals

[pippomusic]

Care to clarify what you mean by "here they call help to kill you"

One more? Wait for the guy to get back online pls

[songhklasid]

might have been the 3 fuc_kers I come across @ the thai lady hamburger shop on soi7 last month, fully aggressive because I wanted a seat to eat my burger, when they were just using up room, a month in thailand no problem, untill that nite, I decided on a take-away,I told friends later they said most probably russian, I have never witnessed such bad attitude. regards bungalowbill.

[malcy]

When i am driving into Pattaya i can't help doing a bad impression of Obi Wan Kenobi and muttering to myself, Mos Eisley Spaceport you will never find a more retched hive of scum and villainy , we must be cautious !

[meadow]

Care to clarify what you mean by "here they call help to kill you"

One more? Wait for the guy to get back online pls

Sorry.. it's the Thai internet connection playing tricks on me. I swear i posted only once.