Thailand's English-speaking Dilemma

[Artisi]

Wrote a letter pointing out this low standard to the school principal (in Thai) and unsurprisingly, have never received a reply. As I suspected, it was just a cynical money making exercise, and feedback was not welcomed. Anyone else had any experience of their kids taking part in such tests?

No experience with any schools and waiting on replies to letters, but I recently wrote to Thammasat University Press about one of their publications, a book on law, pointing out that it is full of errors in grammar, meaning and interperatation of points of law. An absolute shoddy publication which should be taken off the shelf.

I didn't expect an answer, so I'm not disappointed - just amazed that they couldn't take the time to acknowledge my correspondence. At about the same time I found a small error in a Penguin publication - so sent off an email to them - got an answer the next morning saying thank you very much for pointing out the error. Need I say anymore.

[Dario]

Hi madserve,

I quote you "If everybody on this planet could just learn ONE ###### language - English would be a good candidate but I really don't care if it was Chinese - then we would all just have to learn ONE language beyond our mother tongue, and we could get onto dealing with the real problems !"

------> How right you are! You should get an award for this! <-----

If all the education ministers around the world would be following your advice, we'd be out of a lot of trouble as soon as the mission is accomplished. Doing business worldwide would be a breeze...

But madserve, pls stay with English. Do you know how many kanji signs they have in Chinese? I prefer the short and simple English alphabet.

[randyksf]

This is a long thread so if I missed someone saying something to this my apologies.

I have a few different experiences.

Two of my ex lovers are Thai and I met them over in San Francisco living with there sisters. Typical for them to send all the kids to school together makes a lot of sense.

However I found that all of them had only Thai friends and never spoke any English. Read Thai books watched Thai Shows, etc... What was funny to me is they were here to learn English the degree was secondary. On Girl was here for 7 years and only after that could I carry on a good conversation with her.

I do have a few other Thai friend who have no Thai friends in SF because they want to learn English. On is now an English news reader for a Thai new program.

The other sad thing is one friend mom owns a Thai k-6 school or P1 - P6. I was talking to the English Teacher. I could hardly understand her spoken English but her written was better than mine.

[Nemesis]

The fact that few Thais speak English is absolutely no problem to me as it means I have to become more profecient [sic] in their language! Nothing more irritating & arrogant than the archetypal Farang who's attitude demands everyone speak English.

According to your view then, the millions of foreign tourists visiting Thailand every year should become proficient in Thai before their visit?

I teach English at a leading Thai university. The lack of motivation of most students to learn English, which is the universal language, is preventing the young Thais from improving not only themselves but their government and Thailand in general.

English is not only for speaking to others but most innovations / improvements / discoveries / advancements in virtually every field are being made so much quicker because people of different cultures / races / countries are thinking and communicating in one language - English.

Becoming fluent in English today, i.e. thinking in English, is just as important as learning computers or any other field.

Nothing more irritatiing and arrogant than the archetypal farang who may be better at language acquistion than others who dismiss the Thais' lack of motivation to learn English even though they have every reason to learn English and the opportunity.

[Nemesis]

I recently wrote to Thammasat University Press about one of their publications, a book on law, pointing out that it is full of errors

I didn't expect an answer, so I'm not disappointed - just amazed that they couldn't take the time to acknowledge my correspondence.

Amazing Thailand indeed. Thais expect foreigners to understand / appreciate the "Thai way" but they don't care to understand / appreciate any other way.

It's common courtesy to acknowledge a correspondence as the correspondent took the time to write. Most Thais in a leadership role lack even common courtesy.

[Nemesis]

This is Thailand, why don't you speak Thai?

Working at a Thai university my salary is 25,800 baht / month. That is 1290 per weekday workday. Barely enough to survive on.

If Thailand would pay those who are skilled / proficient / trained to teach their young people the universal language a decent salary instead of the paltry amount they do, maybe English teachers could afford to take Thai language lessons and become fluent in their language.

[Darth Bangkok]

I think part of it is that Thais are not good at THINKING. by thinking I mean analysing something and organising your thoughts. They are not used to having an opinion about things and being asked about it.

Most of their lives, they are just told what to do and follow along. Everything is made simple for them. And English is something where they think if they pay a fee and show up for class, six weeks later they can speak.

But even in basic English conversation classes, a foreign teacher will ask them to decribe something or talk about a feeling or something and the students are just lost. Now I teach standardised tests such as the SAT etc. The hardest part is getting students to stop for a minute and prepare what they want to say. And going from step one to step five. Most students wnat to start at step 4 or 5.

At my school, they reserve the writing and reading classes to Thai teachers and I think this is bad because it is just reinforcing bad habits and the teachers are teaching as if there is some kind of formula. It reality, the way you write, the form of it, follows what you are writing about.

If you can read Thai, watch a movie that is subtitled. Forget about all the mistakes and errors and how the people writing them don't really understand English. What you will see is that everything is totally simplified. You will see words like "like" "important" "fast" "go" come" dozens of times no matter what is being spoke. All of the emotions and importance of what people are saying is stripped away. As a result, only the movies with the most physical action and violence are poplular. Try to get a Thai to sit through a whole movie that is serious or historical (Suriyothai aside).

I think we've all had the situation when we ask a Thai why do they take an idea from a foreign place and make it so strange. They will reply "you have to make it so Thais will understand" But I think Thais don't understand a lot because of this. Someone else is telling them the answer all the time and the result is atrophy of the brain.

It is everywhere in Thailand. people dont know how to park a car by themselves. In Tops, you are supposed to go in and press the button on the display to get your personalized discounts. There are usually TWO girls there to help people do this!! Etc. Etc.

[Baaksida]

The lack of motivation of most students to learn English, which is the universal language, is preventing the young Thais from improving not only themselves but their government and Thailand in general.

You've got it to the point!

[phormio]

Maybe the thais should be thinking 30 years ahead and teach the new generation Mandarin.

That is a very good idea if they did, along with English....China definitely looks like it's going to be the future regional superpower in Asia.... Thailand will be almost culturally and economically dominated by them in a few decades...

Hmm....Maybe I should hedge my bets and marry a Chinese girl instead?

Go for a Sino-Thai who speaks mandarin(my wife doesnt) so your kids will know English, Mandarin, and Thai.

[Narachon]

Maybe the thais should be thinking 30 years ahead and teach the new generation Mandarin.

Hmm....Maybe I should hedge my bets and marry a Chinese girl instead?

Go for a Sino-Thai who speaks mandarin(my wife doesnt) so your kids will know English, Mandarin, and Thai.

Great Idea! I'd like for my kids to be Tri-Lingual! Even better opportunities for them in life!

Does that mean I have to save up my money to marry a Hi-So?

(Narachon counts his pennies.... )

Better yet, I guess I better try to find a first gen Thai Chinese girl immigrant. Preferably pretty...

Hey, if I do manage to marry a Sino-Thai, and have a son, I think I'm going to teach him golf.... Think I'll name him..... "เสือ"..... Hey, I need a good retirement plan...

[plachon]

Last I heard Narachon was that Tiger was just about mastering "sawasdee krap" and his Mom was moving on to "khop khun krap".

Poor guy got whupped by the Euros in the Ryder Cup yesterday. Looks like he might be needing his mother-tongue on the Asian tour next year if the present slump continues on the US.

[thaiwing]

A university degree with an English major is no guarantee of proficiency. I know at least a half dozen whose verbal skills have not progressed beyond the "Hello, how are you?" of Prathom 3. Sad, but true.

not taht hrad to udnretsnad the egnislh lnauggae, you hvae to put yuorslef in the mnid of tehm laenred sutedtns and a flul yaers cpoy porecss to ahcvie yuor gaol for a urncegoinesd msatres dgeere.

[Limbo]

corrected when they made errors.

They don’t fair much better at university – poorly constructed teaching, notes and exams full of errors, locally produced text books that are full of major errors– I could go on and fill a book on this subject. Unfortunately a lot of universities are only interested in enrolling students because of the income generated, the students end up in classes 50 -60, and where I teach more than this – for all the good this is, they might as well be in the main stadium with one teacher and an amplifier, this way we could “teach” hundreds at a time.

Dear MR. Artisi,

for good reasons you didn't mention the name of the university stage on which you are acting (doing the English teachers part).

So I won't mention the name of the scenery where I perform once in a while(social sciences .).

But your description is for the full hundred percent correct concerning the situation at 'my' university. It is painfully correct, I wished it wasn't.

Also the part about the lack of assistance you get with formalities.

Yes, why are we doing this? For these ten percent of the students maybe, who at least give some feed-back?

I 'did' four years as a volunteer at a very poor village school (conversation and pronunciation - I beg for forgiveness!), I had more feedback there than at this university.

Dear MR. Elseque,

Yes, the language as a cultural exponent.

Language, the tool for thinking, related to 'thinking'.

Is it right to say that a person who only knows one language (or languages of only one group) limits his own capacity to think and express him/her self?

Why did Witgenstein write and publish his 'Tractatus' in German AND English?

Because the interpretation of what he wanted to say only correctly could be found inbetween the connotations of his German and English sentences?

Is it therefore that this 'black-or-white'-thinking occurs more in countries of which the majority only speaks one language?

Is this reflected for instance in the way certain candidates for a certain presidency express and position themselves (the no need for 'nuances' approach)?

[Artisi]

Yes, why are we doing this? For these ten percent of the students maybe, who at least give some feed-back?

Limbo- you are correct - most of "us" do it for the small number who are interested and appreciate what we are trying to do for them.

[Nemesis]

Is it right to say that a person who only knows one language (or languages of only one group) limits his own capacity to think and express him/her self?

Not necessarliy. Thinking in English is more productive say, than thinking in Thai, because there exists more vocabulary to express your thoughts to others. There are hundreds of thousands of English words, and new words created daily to explain new concepts. That isn't true of other languages, because the new concepts are mostly being developed by English speakers native or otherwise or at least best explained by English, say computer technoolgy or medical / bio chemistry etc.

Have you noticed how Thais will often use English words to explain a concept / idea because there is no equivalent Thai word?

[Nemesis]

Some languages express certain or particular thoughts better than others - using perhaps one word where another language may take multiple words, e.g. stehpenkein in German means 'piss while standing.'

Which German men are being shamed into not doing by being labeled by women as stizpinklers 'wimps' if they do.

[sriracha john]

A university degree with an English major is no guarantee of proficiency. I know at least a half dozen whose verbal skills have not progressed beyond the "Hello, how are you?" of Prathom 3. Sad, but true.

not taht hrad to udnretsnad the egnislh lnauggae, you hvae to put yuorslef in the mnid of tehm laenred sutedtns and a flul yaers cpoy porecss to ahcvie yuor gaol for a urncegoinesd msatres dgeere.

Hahahaha... well done. It would have been an improvement if they had at least been able to write in that manner.

[truweel]

Hi, 20.09.2004

First of all English is not my mothertongue, and I am used to speak or write it.

But is there somebody who can tell me what "you" mean by speaking , pronouncing and writing about "english" ?

Is it English from London, or Queen's english, scottish english, american english, canadian english, south african english, continental european english or english spoken in India, or .........

Is it true that they all use different pronounciations and even different words for the same thing??

Thanks for your coming answer and help.

[Narachon]

Hi,        20.09.2004

Is it English from London, or Queen's english, scottish english, american english, canadian english, south african english, continental european english or english spoken in India, or .........

On this ThaiVisa Forum , It's mostly British ( Queens ) English, But there are more speakers of American English...

Is it true that they all use different pronounciations and even different words for the same thing??

See thehttp://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=17035] current thread [/url] about the Gentleman Scamp Giving up smoking for an example of that answer.....

[Narachon]

Last I heard Narachon was that Tiger was just about mastering "sawasdee krap" and his Mom was moving on to "khop khun krap". 

I can understand if Tiger doesn't know that much Thai, but wouldn't Tiger's mother know the language, since she is Thai, or at least Chinese Thai?

Poor guy got whupped by the Euros in the Ryder Cup yesterday. Looks like he might be needing his mother-tongue on the Asian tour next year if the present slump continues on the US. 

Too bad for Team America. Maybe if Tiger wasn't now distracted by his new Hot Swedish Supermodel girlfriend / Fiancee, I'm sure he would be doing much better!

[bluebear]

The fact that few Thais speak English is absolutely no problem to me as it means I have to become more profecient in their language!

Nothing more irritating & arrogant than the archetypal Farang who's attitude demands everyone speak English.

Err, I hate to break this to you but not every farang is from an English native speaking country. What about the rest of Europe? The Dutch, Swedes, Germans, French.....

The poster who works on the new airport sums it up.

You have a Ukrainian, a thai, a japanese and a brazilian in a business meeting. What language are they more likely to use? Hint, it isnt going to be Thai.

For those people that live here, certainly it is their interest to learn the language. But as Thaksin wants to double the number of visitors to Thailand surely that doesnt apply to the Indians, Japanese, French, British, Indonesian, Singaporean, Malaysian tourists? Isnt the logical step that Thais learn more English?

But then since when are thais ( or the farang thai lovers who want to shoot anyone that has a hint of criticism of anything Thai ) logical?

[rossmore]

One of the main reasons that the level of English teaching is so dire, is that the education authorities wish it to remain thus. This partly explains the ludicrous constraints placed on native speaking teachers. Another example of befuddled Thai nationalism. This ignorance keeps the 'working classes'in their place. The affluent families who pull all the economic strings send their children out West to become fluent English speakers, and thus secure their social and financial position.

Allowing the 'proles' to become English proficient is dangerous to the current social structure here. Cruel, sad, and in the long run in this fast changing world, a dead-ender.

[wiredmark]

One of the main reasons that the level of English teaching is so dire, is that the education authorities wish it to remain thus. This partly explains the ludicrous constraints placed on native speaking teachers. Another example of befuddled Thai nationalism. This ignorance keeps the 'working classes'in their place. The affluent families who pull all the economic strings send their children out West to become fluent English speakers, and thus secure their social and financial position.

Allowing the 'proles' to become English proficient is dangerous to the current social structure here. Cruel, sad, and in the long run in this fast changing world, a dead-ender.

Historically this is sad but true I think, although I have noticed among younger Thai's the level of English is improving rapidly

[OldAsiaHand]

Yes, alas, you're not far wrong there.

On the other hand, did you ever notice how many of these 'well-bred' Thais strut around claiming to have an MBA from someplace like Stanford when they get back home, yet hardly speak a single comprehensible word of English? The worst part is they don't even get the joke.

[sriracha john]

Yes, alas, you're not far wrong there.

On the other hand, did you ever notice how many of these 'well-bred' Thais strut around claiming to have an MBA from someplace like Stanford when they get back home, yet hardly speak a single comprehensible word of English? The worst part is they don't even get the joke.

All one has to do is look at their role model. "Dr." (hahaha, that alone is laughable) Thaksin has a Masters AND a PhD from American universities and his English language skills are less than my neighborhood old-lady trash-bin rummager.

[sriracha john]

BTW, In my opinion, I believe you are right, Rossmore, in your well-written assessment.

BTW2, I am still trying to ascertain if a copy of Thaksin's doctoral thesis is available for review anywhere? It'd most interesting to compare it's written English level with Mr. Thaksin's spoken level today.

[sprq]

I am a "farang" who teaches English in a Thai university, and I can tell you straight up that, the system of teaching in Thailand is so screwed it will take a generation or two to straighten it out if we start today. The majority of  Thai teachers at all levels cannot communicate with any proficiency, sure a lot of them will run rings round most western teachers in grammar but that's it.  The majority of teaching at the lower levels is done in Thai and it is all grammar based, the poor kids get to university and they are expected to be able to communicate in English at a university level, most have hardly ever spoken a word of English other than -

Good morning, how are you? I'm fine thanks and you?

And what they have learnt is not English but Thainglish, footbon, certran, I'm 15 year on, how (house), I’m broken heart -  etc etc.

Recently I was involved in an English camp for a group of kids – 12 – 16 years old from a small rural high school, great kids, a joy to teach and interested in learning - but for most this was the first time they had heard a native speaker and given the opportunity to speak any real English or to be corrected when they made errors.

They don’t fair much better at university – poorly constructed teaching, notes and exams full of errors, locally produced text books that are full of major errors– I could go on and fill a book on this subject. Unfortunately a lot of universities are only interested in enrolling students because of the income generated,  the students end up in classes 50 -60,  and where I teach more than this – for all the good this is, they might as well be in the main stadium with one teacher and an amplifier, this way we could “teach”  hundreds at a time.

And who cares, seems nobody is really interested, the Government is making it more and more difficult for western teachers stay in Thailand – like increasing visa fees by a factor of 4, the same with work permit fees and multi-entry fee’s , and don’t make either the visa or w/permit t easy to renew, separate offices without any co-ordination between them and if you forget to cross the “T”  or dot the “I” ,  it’s sorry,  come back next week – I know you live 700 Km away from the Bkk office but that’s not my problem.

Having said all this, do I believe that all Thai people should speak English, easy answer is NO, I don’t expect this - but if you’re going to teach English at school lets get it right –let’s not waste time, energy and good resources. Re-vamp the whole English teaching programme, start training the trainers in correct English, employ more native speakers to help train the trainers, encourage English teachers to come to Thailand by removing all the frustrations of visa procedures etc. There are some of us living here who are committed to stay in Thailand – but some days you have to ask yourself, is it all worth it.

I agree with just about everything you say, but please reassure me that you weren't trying to get your own English right and just typing at speed to get it all said quickly. Really, if you're going to criticise English standards here, which are indeed appalling, you have to do it in good English.

[sprq]

I find it astounding that so many people here don't even have a basic understanding of any English after all these years. I put it down to Thainess.

Perhaps the arrogance is your?

This is Thailand, why don't you speak Thai?

Why don't you?

[sprq]

To add insult to injury, the English written word is taxed at a ridiculous rate, making newspapers like Nation and B. Post (20 baht), 150 % more expensive than Thai language counterparts e.g. Matichon - 8 baht. All these seem to be conscious efforts by the govt. to deny their citizens easy access to English learning opportunities.

Agreed.

- I have also noticed that the same english books (novels, magazines, text books, etc.) here are much more expensive compare with other Asian countries, e.g. Malaysia, Singapore.

- Foreign language books are translated into Thai, personally I think this is the biggest discouragement among all the others. No wonder even the highly-educated Thais (not all, but majority) still can't be good in English, since most of the reading materials sooner or later will be translated to Thai, English is therefore needless, they have been pampered...

It is perfectly right and proper that English books should be translated into Thai. In an ideal world, all worthwhile books in all languages would be translated into all other languages, and translated faithfully. Then the fund of human knowledge and experience would be available to all literate people everywhere, assuming they had the money to buy the books.

The problem lies elsewhere: Thais don't like reading, even in Thai, and don't have a culture of reading and discussing what they have read. Someone else said it all begins with the teachers, but it's actually more profound: the general culture does not encourage intelligent learning.

The Enlightenment is still waiting for its Thai visa.

[sprq]

One of the main reasons that the level of English teaching is so dire, is that the education authorities wish it to remain thus. This partly explains the ludicrous constraints placed on native speaking teachers.  Another example of befuddled Thai nationalism.  This ignorance keeps the 'working classes'in their place.  The affluent families who pull all the economic strings send their children out West to become fluent English speakers, and thus secure their social and financial position.

Allowing the 'proles' to become English proficient is dangerous to the current social structure here.  Cruel, sad, and in the long run in this fast changing world, a dead-ender.

You're probably right. There's scant evidence of any real effort to improve the state education system, even though there's now a Thai prime minister who knows there's a problem. (On the other hand, does he know how deficient his own English is, I wonder?) Yep, a good proportion of the world's-worst-English-speakers problem is down to power, who holds it, and who wants to keep it. But the main part is a culture which doesn't value intelligent learning and which doesn't value getting things factually right.