Farang Learning Thai

[Tilokarat]

Farang Learning Thai, How painful is that?

It is very painful. Worst of all it will probably prove fatal. Avoid this, and learn Lao or Burmese instead!

Seriously, or more seriously, take an intense course in Thai for about 2-3 months and you will have basic pronunciation, reading and writing skills. After a year of living in Thailand, and taking a course at a more gentle pace, you will be fine. See, it is easy.

Good luck. Chok dee na khap or Sok dee der.

[Ratsima]

No such courses where I live....

[GaiYaang]

Farang Learning Thai, How painful is that?

It is very painful. Worst of all it will probably prove fatal. Avoid this, and learn Lao or Burmese instead!

Seriously, or more seriously, take an intense course in Thai for about 2-3 months and you will have basic pronunciation, reading and writing skills. After a year of living in Thailand, and taking a course at a more gentle pace, you will be fine. See, it is easy.

Good luck. Chok dee na khap or Sok dee der.

Easier said than done Khun Tilokarat. You can get frustrated when people make fun of you or not willing to help you. Find good Thai friends, with patience, I guess that could be difficult too.

Sok dee der

[Ratsima]

Here's some examples....

- We have a dog named "Newin" in our moo baan. Sometimes I feed him or give him rub on the back. The other day I'm calling him, hoping I'm saying มานี่, which is what I've heard other people use to call a dog or cat. Then my wife comes out and says, "His name is Newin, not Manee." So, she immediately assumes I'm saying มานี instead of มานี่. But, why couldn't she see that I'm calling the dog and that I'd mispronounced "come here" instead of assuming that I'd gotten the dog's name so wrong?

- I needed some nails the other day so I looked up the Thai word (ตะปู), practiced it a few times with my wife and headed off for the hardware store where I try to ask for nails. All I get is the dumb-founded blank stare to which I've become quite accustomed by now. So, I try to mimic the action of a carpenter pounding a nail into a piece of wood. Still nothing. So, here's a farang in the hardware store. Presumably he wants to buy something that is commonly sold in hardware stores. It looks like he's using a hammer to pound a nail while repeatedly saying "dapoo dapoo". Do we sell hammers or nails? Maybe he needs one of them. But no, they are unable to use the minimal logic and reasoning required to figure out what I want. Finally I found the nails myself and when I bought them the owner said "Ah ตะปู"!

Learning the language is difficult because Thais seem totally unable to use "sounds like" logic to figure out what the dumb farang is trying to say.

Getting used to this is especially hard for us English speakers as we are accustomed to hearing and figuring out widely varying pronunciations of our own language. For example, if an Ozzie says to me "Pahk the cah in the cah pahk", I know that what he really means is "Park the car in the parking lot."

QED

Edited June 20, 2008 by Ratsima

[GaiYaang]

Here's some examples....

- We have a dog named "Newin" in our moo baan. Sometimes I feed him or give him rub on the back. The other day I'm calling him, hoping I'm saying มานี่, which is what I've heard other people use to call a dog or cat. Then my wife comes out and says, "His name is Newin, not Manee." So, she immediately assumes I'm saying มานี instead of มานี่. But, why couldn't she see that I'm calling the dog and that I'd mispronounced "come here" instead of assuming that I'd gotten the dog's name so wrong?

- I needed some nails the other day so I looked up the Thai word (ตะปู), practiced it a few times with my wife and headed off for the hardware store where I try to ask for nails. All I get is the dumb-founded blank stare to which I've become quite accustomed by now. So, I try to mimic the action of a carpenter pounding a nail into a piece of wood. Still nothing. So, here's a farang in the hardware store. Presumably he wants to buy something that is commonly sold in hardware stores. It looks like he's using a hammer to pound a nail while repeatedly saying "dapoo dapoo". Do we sell hammers or nails? Maybe he needs one of them. But no, they are unable to use the minimal logic and reasoning required to figure out what I want. Finally I found the nails myself and when I bought them the owner said "Ah ตะปู"!

Learning the language is difficult because Thais seem totally unable to use "sounds like" logic to figure out what the dumb farang is trying to say.

Getting used to this is especially hard for us English speakers as we are accustomed to hearing and figuring out widely varying pronunciations of our own language. For example, if an Ozzie says to me "Pahk the cah in the cah pahk", I know that what he really means is "Park the car in the parking lot."

QED

In dictionary it start with d. IMO I would forget the d and use ta-puu.

taa-puu sound a like-also can mean crab eye, and you not in a sea food section.

Hey at least you tried your best and you are not dumb.

[thithi]

yeh i'm thai ... i can say thai is hard to learn...

even i'm thai, believe me i cant spell some difficult words ... cant use the proper words for the royal fam. , monk, etc..

that's why we have to study thai in the school... and we will never stop learning it

TOO MUCH to learn i need the next 2 lives to keep learning it @#$%#$#$%#%@#$#$#$#@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sighhhh ....

[tycoon101]

This is interesting. Writing would be pain in the rear end, but as far as speaking goes, I didn't know it would be that hard for some Farangs. I've met Farangs that speak Thai, Japanese, but haven't seen any Farangs who speak Chinese.

If you were a Farang living in Thailand, it would be a little more enjoyable to communicate with the local. Thanks for the input. I just want to see the point of view from Farangs. Interesting.

[Ratsima]

Japanese is much easier to learn than Thai. It is not a tonal language. It has few homophones. The grammar is simple. I never lived in Japan, but my Japanese is many times better than my Thai.

[kriswillems]

Sometimes I also don't understand farang that want to speak Thai. I think the biggest problem most farang have when speaking Thai is that they get the sounds of the vowels wrong (probably based on the phonetic script they ever saw). Or they use a short vowel instead of a long vowel. Especially native English speakers have problems with the vowels. The second problem is that some people don't know the difference beween the aspirated ph, th and kh and the unaspirated p, t and k.

The tones are also important, but if you get the first 2 wrong, the tones become irrelevant.

I think Thai people are not that bad in understanding bad pronounced words, but sometimes farang make up to 4 mistakes in 1 short word. It's normal Thai people don't understand it.

The word

ตะปู

is a word that invites to make mistakes. Many farang would use an aspirated th and aspirated ph instead of the unaspirated t and p. The first syllable is low tone. Many farang would pronounce it at mid tone. The second syllable has a long vowel. Many farang would use a short vowel. The vowel ะ is not pronounced correctly by many native English speakers. And you used a d for the letter ต, which makes me think you also pronounced it as a d and not as a t.

I would advice you to speak very loud and even overact the vowels sounds, unaspirated p-k-t, the tones and the vowel lenght when you speak.

I makes mistakes to but I think Thai people are able to understand 95% of what I say. If they try to speak nice Thai, I understand about 90% of what they say. When they speak Thai with their friends and I overhear there conversation I only understand about 65%.

Writing Thai at an intemediate is pretty hard because you really need to remember a lot. Even my Thai teachers still make mistakes in some of the writing exercises I get. They have to use a dictionary to know how some words are written or they assume my mistakes are correct. You shouldn't be shy if you're not perfect in writing or reading, because I met quite a lot of Thai people that read worse than the farang in my class.

Edited June 21, 2008 by kriswillems

[Ratsima]

The problem is that many Thai words differ from one another based on a single distinctive feature: aspirated vs. not aspirated, long vs. short, one tone vs. another. There are very few English words that are different by only one distinctive feature. For example, while the words but and bud differ by a single letter, they differ by two distinctive features: the final consonant in but is unvoiced and aspirated, while the final consonant in bud is voiced and not aspirated.

As a result, the pronunciation of English can be quite sloppy and still be intelligible. It seems that Thai must be very precisely pronounced to be understood. Not easy; at least for me.

[kriswillems]

The reason why the small details are important in Thai is because original Thai words consists mainly out of 1 syllable. If you have words with only one syllable als you're very limited in the final consonants sounds and you've a very limited number of consonant clusters, other things like tones, aspirated versus unaspirated consonants and vowels become important.

I make a lot of mistakes in English for similar reasons you make mistakes in Thai. In my last post I made quite a few. Some words in English sound so similar or even the same (from my last post): their and there, to and too. I am never sure how to pronounce and English words because there are so many exceptions and the English writing system also isn't always that logical.

English and Thai are both diffucult for people that speak neither of these languages. Thai might be a bit more hard, but I think it's doable. Much depends an your attitude and effort. Starting with saying it's very hard and you'll never get it doesn't seem to be the best attitude. Of course it's true that some people will never get it, no matter how hard they try, but the majority of farang should be able to study Thai until they reach a level that will make life much more easy for them in Thailand.

Before I could speak Thai I paid more than now. I got lost a lot. I couldn't buy the things that I needed to buy. I got upset with people because of misunderstandings. I had no idea about the way of thinking of some classes in Thai society and so on. I am 10 months in Thailand now and I spent about 5 months (full time) on studying Thai, spread over these 10 months. It has been hard, because some days I spent 5 hours on the bus to study only 3 hours, but it has been a very rewarding effort.

I know it's hard for some people, but if you somehow get the possibility to study in a school - do it - even if you loose a lot of time travelling. It might be even a good idea to rent a room in BKK for 6 months and study over there. There are some people on this forum that could reach a high level in Thai language by studying by themselves, but I suspect these people are very talented or smart or their Thai partner is supporting them a lot in their study.

[meadish_sweetball]

There are some people on this forum that could reach a high level in Thai language by studying by themselves, but I suspect these people are very talented or smart or their Thai partner is supporting them a lot in their study.

I agree. In order to become reasonably proficient in Thai without any formal instruction, you need a higher than average motivation level as well as a well above average capacity for language acquisition.

Most people I know or know of, who are average to good Thai speakers have done more than a year's formal training at a university or renowned language school.

Rikker would be the only shining exception to that rule that I can think of.

I do know self-taught expats who communicate effectively with fluency or close to it in everyday situations, but to get to that level they have spent many years in the country (7 or more) and a large portion of that spent outside of the tourist areas, living or working closely with Thais.

[Radius]

Here's some examples....

Hahaha, you gave me a good laugh there. It reminds me of another story of a farang in Thailand trying to buy a thimble (not me).

Long story short: He tried to 'show' the Thai tailor what he meant by sticking his right finger in his left fist.

Get this picture in your head and I am sure you can figure out the ending of this story.

[Ratsima]

I'd love to be able to take a course and study, but in the place where I live it's just not possible -- nothing on offer. Sadly, I haven't the financial means to spend time living elsewhere in order to study.

In a previous post I mentioned my Danish neighbor who has lived here just a few years longer than I and who is conversationally quite fluent. When I expressed my envy at his ability to speak Thai and asked how he studied he replied, "I never studied, I just picked it up." I believe him. He's the affable sort who loves to talk and seems to go out of his way to chat with anyone. And, he's the kind of person who has no worries about making mistakes. I'm the opposite: kind of shy, don't have much to say and quite self-conscious about my behavior. In other words, a formula for disaster when it comes to language learning.

I'm not sure I agree with Mr. Sweetball about spending time outside of tourist areas. I've noticed that I'm more successful with my Thai and more willing to use it when I'm in such an area. I find that the Thais who work in tourist areas are much more forgiving when it comes to understanding farang-Thai. (Why not? It's in their financial interest, isn't it?) This results in a lot more positive reinforcement and opportunities for conversational practice and vocabulary building. Here in Nakorn Nowhere it's dead cert that my attempts a speaking Thai will be unsuccessful so I'm often loath to even try.

[meadish_sweetball]

I'm not sure I agree with Mr. Sweetball about spending time outside of tourist areas. I've noticed that I'm more successful with my Thai and more willing to use it when I'm in such an area. I find that the Thais who work in tourist areas are much more forgiving when it comes to understanding farang-Thai. (Why not? It's in their financial interest, isn't it?) This results in a lot more positive reinforcement and opportunities for conversational practice and vocabulary building. Here in Nakorn Nowhere it's dead cert that my attempts a speaking Thai will be unsuccessful so I'm often loath to even try.

I understand what you are saying, and there is some merit in there, we all need encouragement...

But the flipside is that when people are too forgiving, they will let you get away with speaking completely wrong, and as soon as you get out into 'real life' again, people still don't understand you.

This forms the attitude among many Thais that farangs cannot learn to speak Thai. They are usually very surprised when they meet somebody who does speak in complete sentences with mostly correct sounds and tones.

Some are in fact so surprised it takes them quite long to 'tune in' to the fact that it is Thai the foreigner is speaking.

You are staying in Isan too, where people don't speak Central Thai with each other, but rather local dialects that are often closer to Lao, especially among the older people.

This means your everyday life is full of a language that doesn't follow the rules you learn when you try to study Central Thai from a book. My situation here in Chiang Mai is similar. When I go out into the countryside here, I find it difficult to understand especially older people who speak Northern Thai. The younger generation speak a version of Northern Thai that is more influenced by Central Thai so I can understand it quite well, but it is still a long way away from Central Thai which I understand 95% of when I concentrate.

[Lithobid]

Ratsima, I hear ya, these situations are all too common, and it's so easy to immediately form a condescending opinion of the person your dealing with when they can't grasp simple charades and a positive attempt at speaking.

Though, it seems they can’t and that story about the dog and your wife confirms, that they aren’t thinking on the plane of critical thinking that we would to understand language in a situation.

Kris: I have to say that is quite possibly the best explanation of miscommunication in Thai that I’ve ever heard. It should be pinned at the top of the language forum with a “read me first” sign!!

Lithobid

[Ratsima]

Central Thai which I understand 95% of when I concentrate.

Based on your posts over the years I'd guess that would be closer to 100%....

[thithi]

Central Thai which I understand 95% of when I concentrate.

Based on your posts over the years I'd guess that would be closer to 100%....

another 5 percent is for the Slang or some teen words i think...

that could be just 2 percent na ka

hehehe

[Gaccha]

Japanese is much easier to learn than Thai. It is not a tonal language. It has few homophones. The grammar is simple. I never lived in Japan, but my Japanese is many times better than my Thai.

I feel as a Japanese speaker and to be well-read on applied linguistics I must not let this pass.

Assuming you are a native English speaker, you are totally wrong. In a survey for the US diplomatic corps: "The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of the US Department of State has compiled approximate learning expectations for a number of languages"[2]. Of the 70 languages analyzed, the 5 most difficult languages to reach proficiency in speaking and proficiency in reading (for native English speakers who already know other languages), requiring 88 weeks, are: "Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean", with Japanese being the most difficult.

Or how about this:

"According to a survey by the British Foreign Office among its diplomatic staff, the most difficult language to learn for adult English speakers is Hungarian, followed by Japanese."

As a point of information, Hungarian and Japanese are in the same lanaguage group.

In a sense the argument you make is itself self-contraindicative. The tones of Thai suggest Thai will have less homophones than Japanese, and that is indeed the case. Japanese has a staggering number of homophones.

Japanese grammar is acutely difficult for the English native speaker as it is has so many fresh concepts. In contrast, Thai up to intermediate level is very familiar to the English speaker.

To be fair to you, in deciding difficulty there are many local factors at play: availability of textbooks and their quality, the motivation of the learner, the character of the learner (extrovert or not).

I hope this may lead to some self-reflection, or as the Japanese say, hansei.

[thithi]

well it depends ... u will never know if it's hard or not till u start to learn it

that's why some ppl said it's easy ...

[Ratsima]

I can only comment on my own experience. The amount of time I've spent studying Thai is staggering compared to the amount of time I spent studying Japanese. I actually live in Thailand and hear Thai daily. I only heard and spoke Japanese on vacations and layovers in the country and from a few customers at my work. My Thai is dismal compared to my Japanese. Japanese people frequently commented on how good my Japanese "accent" was. In fact once I was speaking on the phone to an airline reservation agent in Japan. When the conversation got too complex I asked if we could switch to English. The agent said, "I thought you were Japanese". Such an event will never, ever happen here in Thailand....

Edit: I note that your references on the difficulty of Japanese refer to speaking and reading. I agree; Japanese is a very hard language when it comes to reading. At best I knew a few hundred characters and could never read a student text book. My Thai reading is much, much better than my Japanese reading ever was.

Edited June 21, 2008 by Ratsima

[CSS]

Japanese is much easier to learn than Thai. It is not a tonal language. It has few homophones. The grammar is simple. I never lived in Japan, but my Japanese is many times better than my Thai.

I feel as a Japanese speaker and to be well-read on applied linguistics I must not let this pass.

Assuming you are a native English speaker, you are totally wrong. In a survey for the US diplomatic corps: "The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of the US Department of State has compiled approximate learning expectations for a number of languages"[2]. Of the 70 languages analyzed, the 5 most difficult languages to reach proficiency in speaking and proficiency in reading (for native English speakers who already know other languages), requiring 88 weeks, are: "Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean", with Japanese being the most difficult.

To be fair to you, in deciding difficulty there are many local factors at play: availability of textbooks and their quality, the motivation of the learner, the character of the learner (extrovert or not).

I hope this may lead to some self-reflection, or as the Japanese say, hansei.

Just to follow-up on the above. The FSI puts those 70 languages in three categories and adds an * next to the one that are significantly more difficult than the others in the same category. The languages he mentions are the only ones in the most difficult category and Japanese is the only one with an * there.

Thai is in the middle of the three groups and one of seven languages given an * (the others being Vietnamese, Hungarian, Estonian, Georgian, Mongolian, Finnish). So, based on their rankings of 70 languages it puts Thai somewhere between 6 and 13.

Personally, I found getting to basic levels of understanding not too difficult but moving up to deeper meanings, multi-layered complexity, being able to transmit the right feeling/emotion in my sentence and not just the correct meaning and trying to sound native and not just be understand quite difficult. My experience was three months of intense language study in a small class and then five years living in rural Essan and Northern areas with little to no contact with any English speakers. I found that when learning Thai became a necessity (otherwise I wouldn't have had any friends or talked to anybody) then it got done. I didn't have a significant other, which could be both positive and negative to learning the language. A significant other that speaks one's native language would seem to create a crutch that's hard to lay down when learning Thai. Even if they didn't speak one's native language they would probably get used to the way you spoke Thai so instead of progressing your thai to be more comprehensible they would just learn how to comprehend it. They would get used to it and a new language arise.

I don't know if my experience or methods will be any use to others learning but here's a few things I did. I lived in an area with only Thai speakers and didn't seek out any English speakers. I would focus on one situation at a time, get fluent in that situation then move on, eg. buying somtam in the market, talking about the weather, telling people about my family, asking a farmer about his field. On days I could control the conversation to the topics in which I was fluent I went away feeling great and as if I had learned tons, but when the conversation got away from me into new areas I was lost. I kept a notebook and dictionary on me at all times. I found that I would just start "hearing" new words and when I did I looked them up to check my understanding from context against the definition and then wrote it down in my notebook. I often found that once I learned a new word I would then start "hearing" it all the time. Whenever I was waiting for something/someone (which was a lot) then I would break out my dictionary, look up words I wanted to know and translate everything I could see from where I was sitting. I would then take those new words and phrases and try them out. Manipulating situations to work them in and then testing them. If the reaction I got was the one I expected/wanted then I would use the word in that way again, if not, then I would try again, saying it differently or in a different context, always watching their reaction to get a clue into what they thought I said/meant when I used that word. Lots of trial and error (with some pretty funny mistakes along the way). I also listened to Thai music and read the karaoke along with it. Finally, I tried to never tune out the speaking going on around me but to listen to it first for words I knew (and how they were said), later for phrases/sentences, then for conversational meaning as a whole. Every action in the day was a language learning opportunity, ordering food, passing people on the street, going to the market, getting a cell phone fixed, whatever.

[Ratsima]

I would focus on one situation at a time, get fluent in that situation

How do you get past the first sentence? My wife works, so I'm on my own weekdays. I often venture out to shop, eat, or whatever. All of these transactions have to be in Thai as English speakers are rare. But, the hump of understanding their first sentence or getting them to understand my first sentence seems insurmountable.

I'll often talk to my wife about these events when she gets home; repeating what I've said. More often than not she'll say, "Sounds fine." Maybe so, but it doesn't seem to work "in the field".

[padfoot]

I am no expert. I have taken some classes here in the states. It is basic stuff, no reading and writing. The trouble i have when in Thailand is translating what I have heard. My brain doesn't work fast enough, unless the conversation is slow. Hopefully, with more time spent in Thailand, it will get better. I also believe, for me, learning to read and write will be a big help.

[DavidHouston]

I am no expert. I have taken some classes here in the states. It is basic stuff, no reading and writing. The trouble i have when in Thailand is translating what I have heard. My brain doesn't work fast enough, unless the conversation is slow. Hopefully, with more time spent in Thailand, it will get better. I also believe, for me, learning to read and write will be a big help.

Take your time and learn at your own pace. I believe that "translation" as a skill is beyond the basic four, aural understanding; speaking; reading; and writing. Translation comes after you can and listen and understand; work on the first two first. Two further advanced skills, are, in any order, humor and poetry. I wish you the best of luck in your studies.

Edited June 22, 2008 by DavidHouston

[jonesjaa]

For me the problem was always not the first sentence but the next few. As soon as the first sentence was spoken in Thai with a Thai i always found the following replies would be too quick (for me at least) !

Having been studying both Thai / Chinese in both Countries i was certain Chinese was harder, for me anyway, as found words were very similar. Guna take DavidHoustons' advice at get back to learning thai nice and slowly.

Just out of interest, anyone actually learnt Thai for business reasons? Seems alot do with regards to Chinese, but never heard of people learning Thai because they needed it for work......

[thithi]

For me the problem was always not the first sentence but the next few. As soon as the first sentence was spoken in Thai with a Thai i always found the following replies would be too quick (for me at least) !

Having been studying both Thai / Chinese in both Countries i was certain Chinese was harder, for me anyway, as found words were very similar. Guna take DavidHoustons' advice at get back to learning thai nice and slowly.

Just out of interest, anyone actually learnt Thai for business reasons? Seems alot do with regards to Chinese, but never heard of people learning Thai because they needed it for work......

oi oi oi

i couldnt agree more that Chinese is def, harder than Thai ...obviously in their characters :S there are too many Chinese characters

For the business reasons, i dnt think they have to learn Thai cos it's thai ppl that have to learn Eng.

but some foreigners who became teachers here learn Thai for their works tho

[Ratsima]

For me the problem was always not the first sentence but the next few.

The other day I was out at a fresh market shopping for veggies when I remembered I needed a phone card. I walked up to a mobile phone vendor and asked: ไม่ทราบว่ามีบัตรโทรศัพท์DTACไหม. She looked at me as if I'd asked for a ticket to the moon. So, I ended up just pointing to my phone and saying "DTAC". That actually worked. I wish the actual Thai had worked as well.

[rch1023]

I came here on a teaching contract, with my (English) wife, and have tried hard to learn Thai. At first, I asked the Thai teachers, and one of them said 'yes', but nothing happened. When I pressed her, she asked why I wanted to learn, saying my superiors would just give me more work. I equiped myself with Becker's "Thai for Beginners", and learnt the alphabet, and got a pronunciation CD, and worked my way through the book.

My wife fell ill, and had to have an operation. And another. And now she is semi-invalid.

We don't get out much, and when we do, opportunities for contact with Thai speakers are severely limited. I can tell some taxi drivers where to go, and converse with a few of them to a very limited extent.

The most difficult part has been getting enough contact with Thai speakers who can correct my pronunciation, and acquaint me with colloquial Thai. I can read and write, though my sentence structure is probably wrong, but cannopt adequately speak and listen. I have all of Becker's books, and some others, Se-Ed dictionaries, and a genuine Thai dictionary, gfted on me by some grateful students.

I sympathise with the Dane who can understand his (falang) friend's Thai, but not the Thai speaker.

I hope this goes some way to answering your question.

Regards

- Roger -

I am Thai, and I know some Farangs that speak Thai really well. I was wondering how hard is it for those Farangs out there who try to lean Thai. What is the most difficult part of learning Thai? I am sure that the writing must be really pain for you since we don't have the quite the same sentence structure as the English. We write as we like..kinda thing...Not sure, how Tood Tongdee learn Thai, but I'm impressed ...

[Ratsima]

I hope that those who have an easy time of it understand the struggle that some of us face. Believe me, it's not for lack of trying or failure to make an effort. I know a lot of Thai. Like rch1023, I can read. In my mind I can formulate what I believe to be grammatically correct utterances. But the percentage of time those utterances are actually understood is near nil.

I'm disappointed because when it comes to studying Thai the return on what I see as a rather massive investment has been close to zero.