Farang Learning Thai

[meadish_sweetball]

For me the problem was always not the first sentence but the next few.

The other day I was out at a fresh market shopping for veggies when I remembered I needed a phone card. I walked up to a mobile phone vendor and asked: ไม่ทราบว่ามีบัตรโทรศัพท์DTACไหม. She looked at me as if I'd asked for a ticket to the moon. So, I ended up just pointing to my phone and saying "DTAC". That actually worked. I wish the actual Thai had worked as well.

I've given the same advice before - start out with a smile and a slowly enunciated สวัสดีครับ . Meet the eyes, make sure you have their attention. Then speak your first sentence, slowly.

Even though I usually am understood, I occasionally have the same problem when the person I speak to is not prepared to hear me speaking Thai. So do try to say one or two sentences you know you can say correctly first, just to 'tune in' the listener.

I can think of two other things that could have thrown the shop clerk off, provided your pronunciation was otherwise ok:

The top up/refill cards are usually referred to as บัตรเติมเงิน (unfortunately not so easy to pronounce; pitfalls particularly on the ง and ต as well as getting the เอิอ vowel right), and also, is it possible you pronounced DTAC as you would in English?

English words or abbreviations that Thais use regularly receive their own pronunciation and tone rules which may well be the only way some Thais have heard them pronounced.

It tends to go better when one pronounces those words like a Thai would, even though it feels unnatural. I have been misunderstood quite a few times for properly pronouncing an English word inside a Thai sentence myself.

[mike_l]

The other day I was out at a fresh market shopping for veggies when I remembered I needed a phone card. I walked up to a mobile phone vendor and asked: ไม่ทราบว่ามีบัตรโทรศัพท์DTACไหม. She looked at me as if I'd asked for a ticket to the moon. So, I ended up just pointing to my phone and saying "DTAC". That actually worked. I wish the actual Thai had worked as well.

I've given the same advice before - start out with a smile and a slowly enunciated สวัสดีครับ . Meet the eyes, make sure you have their attention. Then speak your first sentence, slowly.

Even though I usually am understood, I occasionally have the same problem when the person I speak to is not prepared to hear me speaking Thai. So do try to say one or two sentences you know you can say correctly first, just to 'tune in' the listener.

I can think of two other things that could have thrown the shop clerk off, provided your pronunciation was otherwise ok:

The top up/refill cards are usually referred to as บัตรเติมเงิน (unfortunately not so easy to pronounce; pitfalls particularly on the ง and ต as well as getting the เอิอ vowel right), and also, is it possible you pronounced DTAC as you would in English?

I agree, they might have been confused by a pronunciation of "DTAC" as it's spelt in English (i.e. as ดี-ทัก, at least in England) rather than ดี-แทค. If not, then maybe saying "DTAC" rather than "happy" might have confused them. I reckon the normal way is just to ask for a บัตรแฮปปี้ x บาทครับ, I think it's probably unnecessary to say the full บัตรเติมเงิน if the brand name already gives away what kind of บัตร it is that you're after.

Edited June 22, 2008 by mike_l

[PeaceBlondie]

I have been getting phone refill cards at 7-11 for a few years now. Of course, I do not speak Thai. I usually go in and ask, "Mee 1-2-call ha roi baht?" Last week I asked for 300 baht cards, and I needed two cards. For my second sentence, I said something like "sahm roi, song." Then we went back and forth three times, not communicating. Finally he sold me two 300-baht 1-2-call cards, and I left. I have no idea what went wrong. If I cannot even change my order from a single 500-baht card to two 300-baht cards, it is discouraging. After two years of swimming at the public pool, and I barely know how to offer a child a piggy-back ride, which in Mexico among Mayas took me about three days to learn to say "koo-chun." I started a brief introductory course recently, that only proved that Thai is an incredibly complex language for a native English speaker to learn. You probably need to spend a thousand intensive hours studying Thai before the light begins to turn on. I do not have that much patience.

[jfchandler]

About DTAC and related, I'd add a similar story...

When I first came to Thailand...my Thai friends would always talk about going to or places at "Centen World"... And I'd say... HUH??? What is that? And I'd look on my own at maps and directories and such and try to figure out what the hel_l place they were talking about...but not find it...

Then finally...after going there...I realized they were talking about Central World mall near Siam....but I could never figure out why they always say "Centen". If I'd pronounce it "Central World," my Thai friends wouldn't know what I was talking about...

Finally, lately, I asked my Thai tutor why locals say "Centen"... And her answer was Thais, of course, have trouble pronouncing the L sound... So they, somewhere/somehow, decided to change the name to avoid the L.... That was her explanation... Have no idea if it's true....

[PeaceBlondie]

Even Thai words that are transliterated into Roman characters ending in -l do that. My student named Nataphol pronounced his name Nataphon.

[mangkorn]

In Thai, it's not possible to end a syllable with an L sound. Thus it makes perfect sense that a loan word like Central is pronounced in the way that Thais pronounce Thai words. What about the English pronunciation of "toilet?" Unless English speakers start using French pronunciation for such loan words, there is no good reason to complain about the way that Thai people pronounce loan words.

Re: Ratsima's phonecard question, it does sound rather lunar; what was the point of the using the first three words in that question? (sorry, I can't transmit the Thai script at the moment). Losing those words could have made the question more understandable.

Re: "sahm roi, song." - that doesn't make any sense. (It might be 302...) Thai uses classifiers, but then again, so does English. You don't say "two cigarettes" if you want two "packs" of cigarettes...

As meadish says, it's best to learn how Thais say things - by listening. If one goes to the 7-11 regularly, it's very common to hear Thai customers ask the clerks for phonecards. Listen, and remember how they say it.

Edited June 22, 2008 by mangkorn

[mangkorn]

I think Thai people are not that bad in understanding bad pronounced words, but sometimes farang make up to 4 mistakes in 1 short word. It's normal Thai people don't understand it.

That is quite possibly the truest thing ever posted here. Outstanding.

You also make some other great points, kriswillems. But, I don't quite agree that advising farangs to speak even more loudly than they usually do is such a good idea...

Ratsima: I rather doubt that there is no Thai-language instruction available in Khorat. I could be wrong, but I'd guess that with a little bit of serious effort, one could find a teacher there. (My first teacher in Bangkok wasn't even a teacher - she was just a neighbour looking for a side job after work - and she was excellent.)

Thai is very difficult, certainly. But you can only get as far as you're willing to really work at it. Isn't it amazing how well many uneducated Isan people speak English? They make the effort, to learn an excruciatingly difficult new language.

Tragically, the vast majority of educated farangs simply do not.

[Ratsima]

I showed my wife Meadish's outstanding post. The advice about preparing the Thai listener to hear Thai from the mouth of a farang is excellent and something that I usually forget to do.

I asked her specifically about บัตรโทรศัพท์ (telephone card) vs. บัตรเติมเงิน (refill money card) and she thought that they were equally common. I asked her what she would use and she said, "If I were in a hurry I'd just say มีบัตร DTAC." Regarding the pronunciation of DTAC; as an American, I pronounce it ดี-แทค, which seems to be the way I hear Thais pronounce it.

As for the first three words of my query (ไม่ทราบว่า), I learned to ask for things that way by observing my wife ask for things in shops we visit together. She says it's a more polite and softer way of asking if a shop carries a certain item. But, perhaps those extra words coming from the mouth of a farang are just too much.

Thai is very difficult, certainly. But you can only get as far as you're willing to really work at it.

I've worked at it very, very hard over the last ten years and I haven't gotten very far at all; at least with the spoken language. I can read and understand well enough to notice how poor (odd?) the Thai subtitles are in English language shows broadcast by True Visions, but I have difficulty with something as simple as buying a phone card.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks for the note about classifiers. Yes, now that you mention it, my "sahm roi, song" would resemble 302. But there is no 302 baht phone card, and I paused. The store is in an area full of farang. He may have been explaining that they now sell cardboard cards rather than plastic cards. I have no idea what classifiers are - that is like telling a beginning English student about gerunds and past passive participles. The fact remains that unless a learner is especially skilled in language acquisition, immersed in the language culturally, determined to learn the new language, can hear and mimic tones properly, and remember hundreds of near-homophones, Thai language is one nearly impossible language for some foreigners.

I have now answered the opening post and will try to slip sheepishly out the door.

[Ratsima]

PeaceBlondie, don't "slip sheepishly out the door". I think it's valuable for all of us unsuccessful but serious students of Thai to keep up the conversation.

I've learned a lot from this thread. Of course the "try harder" exhortations aren't worth much, but several contributors to this thread have made suggestions that are both insightful and helpful. To them I say, "Thanks for sticking with us."

My specific suggestion to you would be to give Rosetta Stone a try. While it does not teach you the sort of Thai you'll hear on the street, if you buy in to it's methodology you will learn a lot about the structure of proper Thai and the use of things like classifiers. As an extra bonus, Rosetta Stone will teach you to read without really trying. (I can't even recite the Thai alphabet, but my reading is getting better all the time!)

[PeaceBlondie]

I have a Heng-esque tendency to put on airs and intimate that I am filthy rich. The truth is, that I wasted 1900 baht on a six week course and quit halfway through. All I learned is that I am as bad as I thought, and 1900 baht poorer. I invested several thousand dollars in 1998-2000 to learn Spanish in Nicaragua. ....... How much does it cost, how many months at how many hours of study and class? Just because it is remotely possible does not mean it is worth the investment in time, money and effort.

[Ratsima]

Rosetta Stone is a computer based learning system. It runs on your PC. You can probably get a dodgy copy for 200 baht or less.

But, for it to work you have to buy in to the system. Just point and click. Don't look anything up. Don't write anything down. Just go through the lessons. At first it is enormously frustrating because you'll get things wrong a majority of the time. But, slowly you internalize bits of language and start to get things right. No effort involved. The publishers claim that their system "unlocks" your innate language learning ability. It seems to work.

But, as I've pointed out, although I learned a lot of Thai from RS it isn't the sort of Thai you hear on the streets.

Give it a shot. You might find that for the specific problems you're having it might help. Can't hurt.

[clausewitz]

Japanese is much easier to learn than Thai. It is not a tonal language. It has few homophones. The grammar is simple. I never lived in Japan, but my Japanese is many times better than my Thai.

I feel as a Japanese speaker and to be well-read on applied linguistics I must not let this pass.

Assuming you are a native English speaker, you are totally wrong. In a survey for the US diplomatic corps: "The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of the US Department of State has compiled approximate learning expectations for a number of languages"[2]. Of the 70 languages analyzed, the 5 most difficult languages to reach proficiency in speaking and proficiency in reading (for native English speakers who already know other languages), requiring 88 weeks, are: "Arabic, Cantonese, Mandarin, Japanese, Korean", with Japanese being the most difficult.

Or how about this:

"According to a survey by the British Foreign Office among its diplomatic staff, the most difficult language to learn for adult English speakers is Hungarian, followed by Japanese."

As a point of information, Hungarian and Japanese are in the same lanaguage group.

In a sense the argument you make is itself self-contraindicative. The tones of Thai suggest Thai will have less homophones than Japanese, and that is indeed the case. Japanese has a staggering number of homophones.

Japanese grammar is acutely difficult for the English native speaker as it is has so many fresh concepts. In contrast, Thai up to intermediate level is very familiar to the English speaker.

To be fair to you, in deciding difficulty there are many local factors at play: availability of textbooks and their quality, the motivation of the learner, the character of the learner (extrovert or not).

I hope this may lead to some self-reflection, or as the Japanese say, hansei.

I was just going to reply alonmg the same lines. thanks for putting it so well.

[Groongthep]

I've given the same advice before - start out with a smile and a slowly enunciated สวัสดีครับ . Meet the eyes, make sure you have their attention. Then speak your first sentence, slowly.

Even though I usually am understood, I occasionally have the same problem when the person I speak to is not prepared to hear me speaking Thai. So do try to say one or two sentences you know you can say correctly first, just to 'tune in' the listener.

Excellent advice. I believe I too, have very often not been understood by Thais when speaking to them when I have caught them by surprise when he/she was not expecting a farang to be speaking to them in Thai. By beginning with สวัสดีครับ spoken clearly, you 'tune' the listener in and are much more likely to be understood than when simply walking right up to a stranger and beginning to speak rapidly as you would to your Thai friends or aquaintences who already know you can speak well.

[Ratsima]

So, if Japanese is so much more difficult to learn than Thai than how do we explain the fact that after ten years of studying Thai and after being in the country for over three years I can't manage even the simplest transaction with spoken Thai; but after a rather minimal, tourist-type study of Japanese I'm able to order food, buy things, ask directions and pronounce things well enough that I've been mistaken for being Japanese when on the phone?

[clausewitz]

So, if Japanese is so much more difficult to learn than Thai than how do we explain the fact that after ten years of studying Thai and after being in the country for over three years I can't manage even the simplest transaction with spoken Thai; but after a rather minimal, tourist-type study of Japanese I'm able to order food, buy things, ask directions and pronounce things well enough that I've been mistaken for being Japanese when on the phone?

Thai is hard to pronounce for many farang(certainly harder than japanese)

However reading and writing Japanese, and the so complicated grammar (thai has very easy grammar) makes getting above a beginner level a very hard task. I lived in japan for 12 years and never got beyond general conversation. In fact with only three years in thailand I am much better at Thai,. But I do take pains to learn the tones.

[Ratsima]

Thai is hard to pronounce for many farang (certainly harder than japanese)

And there lies the crux of the matter. I know lots of Thai words, but when I'm out in the real world I almost never recognize spoken words that I know or understand what I hear. If I listen to Rosetta Stone or Pimsleru or a Becker tape, no problem. I got it. But, step out to 7/11 and it's all just unrecognizable noise.

[Gaccha]

Thai is hard to pronounce for many farang (certainly harder than japanese)

And there lies the crux of the matter. I know lots of Thai words, but when I'm out in the real world I almost never recognize spoken words that I know or understand what I hear. If I listen to Rosetta Stone or Pimsleru or a Becker tape, no problem. I got it. But, step out to 7/11 and it's all just unrecognizable noise.

It seems to me all you have to do is work relentlessly on your tones. And this is how to do it. It seems your ears are not cooperating. You need to study the matter. Do you really know the tones of Thai? For example, the falling tone doesn't actually just fall-- it initially rises and then falls. The mid tone is not flat: it actually rises very slightly in the first half. You can see this if you look at the Thai language entry on http://slice-of-thai.com/tones/. Your solution is then to download "Frequency voice analyser software" and practise matching your voice to those tones. I recommend "voice viewer" from slice-of-thai. There then follows hours and hours of tedium until your voice and ears "get it". Don't worry you can do tone changes, as English has them.

As for your Japanese ability, the Japanese, like the Thais, are not ones to ration their compliments. In Japan, you know you are really good when they stop complimenting.

[Tod Daniels]

"Gaccha"; as soon as you find a single diminutive native inhabitant in the glorious "Land 'O Thais" who happens to exhibit the clarity of enunciation you are referring to when they speak thai please let me know. I don't think there's a single thai which speaks with the clarity you mention. To suggest a foreigner learning this language attempt to articulate that degree of clarity is simply ludicrous. It is also a shameless plug.

When I started learning this language I only concentrated on two tones; falling and rising. The other three tones can be and almost always are slurred into medium tonal hodge-podge which will be totally understood. It's the falling/rising tonal mistakes which get you off 'script' when speaking.

I feel vowel length is also at least as important as the two previously mentioned tones. Given the thai definition for a long vowel and a short vowel mean duration of sound only; this is a make or break it thing to learn early on. Words in thai cannot be drawn out the way they can in english and retain their original meaning. It is also why learning to read and recognize thai characters is so important.

I would suggest concentrating very much on vowel length coupled with the two important tones. Learning as much vocabulary as you can retain each day, and then work on sentence structure/word order.

Take with a grain of salt any compliments about your speaking ability especially if it uses the word เก่ง (geng). Thais if anything hand out compliments far too easily. What you want to hear is the word ชัด (chat). Be that as it may, skip the accolades and strive for understanding. IF they can understand you, and you them, you're making progress.

[5tash]

For those of you that are struggling with various aspects of pronouncing Thai words, I would like to recommend to you Benjawan Poomsan Becker's "Improving Your Thai Pronunciation". It comes with a booklet and CD.

I found it very useful for learning the tones. You can read the word in the booklet whilst at the same time listening to the CD.

มา หม่า ม่า ม้า หมา

โจ โจ่ โจ้ โจ๊ โจ๋

I found that reading and listening for about ten minutes every day, I soon started to understand and differentiate between the tones.

Reason for Edit; Posted accidentally before I had completed the post.

Edited June 23, 2008 by 5tash

[sbk]

An inflammatory, aggressive and insulting post and its responses has been removed.

May I suggest that it is best to not leap to assumptions about people you know nothing about.

Lets keep this topic on the civil note it has maintained until this point, thanks.

[Ratsima]

I recommend "voice viewer" from slice-of-thai

- Windoze only, I see....

I would like to recommend to you Benjawan Poomsan Becker's "Improving Your Thai Pronunciation". It comes with a booklet and CD.

I have this and haven't looked at it in years. I'll dig it out. Thanks for the reminder and the nice, positive post.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Ratsima

[PeaceBlondie]

I apologize for a provocative comment I made earlier, which I have now edited. I have been living here permanently for five years and have no intent to leave. While I have not tried hard enough to learn Thai, I have bought Becker's beginner book, borrowed its CD, paid for a six week course and textbook that I quit halfway through, etc. None of them has helped me to start to begin to learn Thai, and I wasted my money. Again, I applaud those of you who can and do learn this difficult language.

[Tod Daniels]

Sorry this is long, but hopefully it will be of interest, even if some of the topics have been mentioned previously.

(I have also tried to rein in my penchant for 'thai bashing' for the sake of the discussion)

PeaceBlondie brought up some very valid issues which continue to befuddle foreigner's trying to learn this language. One is the fact that thai words cannot be changed from singular to plural with the addition of an 's' like in english. There is no cat to cats, dog to dogs, way to change quantities in thai. (While there are some words that can be either singular or plural, we will not address them). This is where the infamous 'thai classifiers' come into play. While english uses them to a degree it is NOT to the extent mandated by the language here in the glorious "Land 'O Thais".

The other problem which arises (which I addressed in an earlier post) is; you cannot form a question by rising the tone of the last word in a sentence like we do in english. As an example; in english say "Okay", as a statement and then ask "Okay?" as question. You can hear the difference in tone between the words. With Thai being a tonal language you can't do it, hence the 'mai' word put at the end denoting to the other person you are asking a question, "Okay mai", is the equivalent of Okay?" in english.

It can and is frustrating to learn the classifiers for most of the commonly referred to items in your life. As an example for the post PeaceBlondie made about the 1-2-Call top up cards, by using the phrase 'mee 1-2-call ha roi baht?'. Now unless the 'mai' verbal question mark word (mentioned in the preceding paragraph) was added at the end of that; a thai would hear the statement 'have 1-2-call 500 baht', not the question IF they had it, or knowing you wanted it. I would suggest using 'ow' which is 'want' as the first word, so it is "ow 1-2-call ha-roi baht". This gets you stating what you want plain and simple. Believe me if they DON'T have it you'll get the old standby answers; 'mai-mee' (not have) or 'mot-laaeo' (finished already, aka; out of stock).

The other phrase "sahm roi, song" would not work either, because while you did denote 'two', you didn't denote you wanted them by using 'ow' / 'want' nor use a classifier to make it 'two pieces', It is the number after the item as well as the classifier which tips them off to you wanting a multiple of the same things. I would try something like 'ow 1-2-Call sahm roi baht, song bai', with the word 'bai' being the most commonly used classifier for small card like objects. This would have been instantly understood. Word for word in english it would be "Want 1-2-Call 300 baht, 2 piece".

For the most part I leave out polite interjections, like "mai-sap-wa", (I don't know if..), or "garunaa" (please..), and just say what I want (then again I am American). IF your thai is shaky; stick with the bare basics and give up on the pleasantries. You can throw in a 'khrap' or 'ka', if you want at the end but I rarely do and so far have not been publicly caned, stoned or whipped for it.

Ahhhh, the trials and tribulations foreigners go thru to learn an obscure language spoken by an incredibly small percentage of the world's population, in a country the size of North and South Dakota combined, which sadly, most people couldn't find on a map.

The mind wobbles...

(edited for spelling...)

Edited June 24, 2008 by tod-daniels

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, tod. I can now order by ow instead of by asking mee.

[CSS]

I would focus on one situation at a time, get fluent in that situation

How do you get past the first sentence? My wife works, so I'm on my own weekdays. I often venture out to shop, eat, or whatever. All of these transactions have to be in Thai as English speakers are rare. But, the hump of understanding their first sentence or getting them to understand my first sentence seems insurmountable.

I'll often talk to my wife about these events when she gets home; repeating what I've said. More often than not she'll say, "Sounds fine." Maybe so, but it doesn't seem to work "in the field".

I think some pretty good suggestions have already been made but I'll recap a bit. It was great advice to use a common, easily pronounceable sentence to let the listener know that though, yes you are white skinned, you will be speaking Thai. I'd try to pick out a phrase to greet them (ทักทาย ták taai ) listen for others to say it and parrot them exactly, including the emotion and "character" of the way they say it as our English ears actually take aspects of tones to be part of the emotion and character so if you mimic it all you're likely to get the tone right too. I've noticed one way people (myself included) go wrong is that when one isn't confident in what they are saying they will add a "tone" to the sentence that in English would let the listener know that we aren't sure but in Thai it changes the meaning, so say the sentence with confidence. Again, listen for others to say that sentence, then try it out, if it doesn't work, try saying it differently. If you can't get it to work then try a new sentence. Once you've got it, then use it and move on to the next one. Keep things simple and shy from complexity. Maybe just start with sawatdee, sabai dii mai, if you get them to respond to you in Thai, then try out your Thai question. If they don't respond in Thai then don't move on yet but try to get them to register that you will be attempting Thai, maybe say (ผมจะลองพูดภาษาไทยนะ pŏm jà long pôot paa-săa tai ná ). I think particularly if you've lived in a small community without the ability to speak Thai those in the community are going to need some prodding to let them know that you have learned some now. Anyway, I hope there was something of value of there but that's all I have time for at the moment.

[meadish_sweetball]

"Gaccha"; as soon as you find a single diminutive native inhabitant in the glorious "Land 'O Thais" who happens to exhibit the clarity of enunciation you are referring to when they speak thai please let me know. I don't think there's a single thai which speaks with the clarity you mention.

I agree most Thais do not enunciate very clearly when they speak in everyday life. But all native speakers of Central Thai I know of have perfect tone control when they say words in isolation or emphasize them.

To suggest a foreigner learning this language attempt to articulate that degree of clarity is simply ludicrous.

No, on the contrary, it is very useful.

If the voice analysis software actually works and produces proper curves, it will be immensly helpful for some people who have difficulty hearing and pronouncing tones. This type of practice creates the *actual blueprint* of the tones in one's head. Once you have that, you will find it easier to hear how the tones change according to their environment in the spoken language. If you go about it the other way around there is too much 'background noise' for most people to be able to get what is important. When you focus on one aspect at a time you stand a much greater chance of becoming near-perfect.

A great benefit of learning in this manner is that when you need to emphasize a word inside a Thai sentence, you MUST do it by applying the correct tone - with added pressure. In those cases you can't just wing it.

If you try to emphasize the same way it is done in many European languages, you end up with a falling tone...

When I started learning this language I only concentrated on two tones; falling and rising. The other three tones can be and almost always are slurred into medium tonal hodge-podge which will be totally understood. It's the falling/rising tonal mistakes which get you off 'script' when speaking.

They are more important but in my experience failure to do the high tone properly is also important.

I feel vowel length is also at least as important as the two previously mentioned tones. Given the thai definition for a long vowel and a short vowel mean duration of sound only; this is a make or break it thing to learn early on. Words in thai cannot be drawn out the way they can in english and retain their original meaning. It is also why learning to read and recognize thai characters is so important.

Very good point. The vowel length is indeed crucial info, although strictly speaking it can also be learned when applying a proper transcription system. But a lot of people feel they cannot be bothered to learn a transcription system exclusively for their own use no matter how well it manages to convey the language when mastered. And obviously reading and writing Thai is important for so many other reasons.

I would suggest concentrating very much on vowel length coupled with the two important tones. Learning as much vocabulary as you can retain each day, and then work on sentence structure/word order.

Not a bad idea but I see no reason for not giving the same amount of care to the other three tones (well, mid won't usually be a problem, but there is a distinct quality to the high tone (it actually rises) that is required for acceptable pronunciation.

Take with a grain of salt any compliments about your speaking ability especially if it uses the word เก่ง (geng). Thais if anything hand out compliments far too easily. What you want to hear is the word ชัด (chat). Be that as it may, skip the accolades and strive for understanding. IF they can understand you, and you them, you're making progress.

Provided you like both chicken and egg, ordering a sandwich with either can be a good test of how well one has mastered aspirated/non-aspirated... if you think you've ordered chicken and get egg, you know you were on the wrong track. [personal experience from the first week I was here ]

[riga]

On the tones issue here a paragraph I found doing a research about tonal languages:

An Introduction to Tonal Languages

....

Acquiring the ability to use tone in language is child's play. Intonation is one of the first speech features that young children across the globe learn. In fact, tones and the use of tone systems are mastered long before any other area of phonology. This could be why adult second language learners have such a difficult time picking up pitch patterns in the new language they are acquiring. The ability to learn pitch patterns comes so early in a child's development, that by adulthood, this ability could be greatly impaired.

No matter what language environment a child grows up in, the intonation contours that are expressed by the child are characteristic of the adult speech in the environment. They babble characteristically in the same intonation patterns as their parents.

Author: Amy Stafford

So if this is true (as I thing) the task of learning to hear and speaks tones correctly is an hard one. For some endowed people it will be doable easely, others will need more efforts and other ones could also be never able to get them correctly

[Ratsima]

If the voice analysis software actually works and produces proper curves, it will be immensly helpful for some people who have difficulty hearing and pronouncing tones. This type of practice creates the *actual blueprint* of the tones in one's head. Once you have that, you will find it easier to hear how the tones change according to their environment in the spoken language. If you go about it the other way around there is too much 'background noise' for most people to be able to get what is important. When you focus on one aspect at a time you stand a much greater chance of becoming near-perfect.

The Rosetta Stone software has built in voice analysis. Since I was having trouble I bought a good quality set of headphones and microphone. I spent dozens and dozens of hours with this and never made much progress. I could never reproduce the sounds with any more than about 25-30% accuracy. What amazed me was that even though I'd hear and "see" a particular tone I'd often actually speak the inverse. See and hear a rising tone and I'd produce a falling tone. I never could train my voice to duplicate what I'd heard and seen.

It was like learning to play golf and never being able to do better than 12 strokes per hole.

After months of trying I gave up on that approach. It didn't help me hear or speak at all.

[clausewitz]

Try that software that Gacca mentions above. I find it excellent.