Urgent - Labor Laws And Foreigners - Urgent

[ThePyawkt]

Hi Folks,

I am posting this as both a potential warning, and as a question, since I am having to go through this ordeal myself.

I have a Thai family and have been living and working here, full-time, for almost 5 years. I have been a teacher at a new international school for the last two years, having completed my second year at the school this last June. In January the school sent out questionnaires to some of the teachers saying that they were interested in having them back for next year, and were we planning on staying with the school. I was one of the ones who received the letter - I checked the YES box, signed the letter, and returned it to my coordinator. I would have a job next school year - HA!

February came and went, March arrived, and people began asking at teacher meetings about when contracts would be drafted, etc. We were told that a new business and HR manager was hired, and we would have to wait while they were brought up to speed.

March evaporated, and well into April, one or two people had been given contracts, but all the senior teachers, ready to begin our third year, had not been given any. When we would ask, again, we were told that the new HR dept. was working diligently to sort through our cases and et everyone taken care of, that we had nothing to worry about, and to please be patient.

May 1st arrived and ALL senior teachers received a "Letter of Gratitude" from the school saying that our last day of work was the last day of school, and to have a nice life. WE WERE OUT OUR JOBS!

We were given only 30 day notice, and notified long after all the job and teaching fairs had concluded in January and February - we were screwed, and many of us have families and kids! There was nothing wrong with our job performances - we all had glowing performance reviews. It was unprovoked.

We approached the HR Director, asking what this meant about the summer pay. The Director responded that we would be dealt with on a case by case basis as to whether we would receive our summer pay or not - even if it was in our BILINGUAL, signed contracts. Many of us also had an air ticket as part of our contract, and we were informed then that that would not be honored.

Searching job websites, it was clear that the school was recruiting new teachers to replace us, that were being offered a substantially lower salary - they sacrificed us to cut costs.

The last day of school came and went. The following day we went to the Thai Ministry of Labor, who reviewed the situation and agreed that a serious tort had been committed, and sent us to the MOE - that it fell under their jurisdiction. They promptly reviewed the case and agreed that the school would have to honor the summer pay, as outlined in our contracts, were a little uncertain about the air tickets, but said that we would each receive THREE-FOUR MONTHS SALARY FOR EACH YEAR WE HAD WORKED THERE, since we had been wrongfully terminated. This was the policy of the Thai labor laws and the labor regulations for teachers, set by the MOE.

I had heard of this before, and felt it made sense, to protect ALL teachers from schools that created these situations at the expense of dedicated educators. The case was sent to the labor court, and was first heard at the end of June.

The first hearing went well, and the judge and all members of the court indicated that the law would be applied and that the school would have to pay the balance of each contract, and 3-4 months of salary, per year worked, to each teacher, due to wrongful termination. The second hearing was sent for the beginning of July.

At the second hearing, the schools attorney produced a copy of a law that was enacted about 4 years ago that EXEMPTED FOREIGN WORKERS from the wrongful termination penalty set by the labor laws! The judge was shocked that such a thing existed, and immediately recessed to see if this was actually true. The Labor Court did not seem to even be aware of this law!

Upon careful research, by myself and the labor court, the law IS TRUE, and there appears to be no way around it. Thus, there is NO LONGER A PENALTY FOR THE WRONGFUL TERMINATION OF FOREIGN WORKERS AND TEACHERS in the Thai courts - this makes us all very vulnerable, not to mention the very racist implications of such a law!

I am wanting to make sure that people know of this issue and am asking if anyone else has experience with this issue or similar one, and if there is any knowledge out there pertaining to this. I have met with several lawyers, who all seemed surprised about the existence of this exclusion, and upon review, felt there was no way around it and no other protectionary provisions for foreign workers.

Any insight, knowledge, etc. would be very appreciated!

Thanks!

[keddy]

Sorry to hear about this 'scam'. All I can suggest for now, is to name this school by putting it on Ajhan.com forum, as well as this forum. You can also put it on or create a blacklist, and make other teachers aware of it. Hopefully any potential candidates will avoid this dodgy institution. If this is the way they run their school then maybe you're better off out of it. Good Luck.

[PeaceBlondie]

Both ThaiVisa and Ajarn.com (and ajarnforum.net) have rules against naming and shaming. Thai defamation law

[mizzi39]

Sorry for your stressful situation. This just reinforces the fact that there is no protection for foreigners in the LOS. Employers really do not even need a reason to let you go. They are just required to give you a 30 day notice. I am sure that you will find another job soon. "keddy' is right. The school does seem very dodgy and you are probably better off not working for them.

[keddy]

Both ThaiVisa and Ajarn.com (and ajarnforum.net) have rules against naming and shaming. Thai defamation law

There have been forums that have named and shamed these institutions though without going into too much detail. If you tell the truth about a particular place and these events really happened then it is not defamation, is it.

In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressively stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts which arises where one person reveals information which is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person.^[1] "Unlike libel or slander, truth is not a defence for invasion of privacy."^[2]

False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being."^[3] If a publication of information is false, then a tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading then a tort of false light might have occurred.^[3]

[singa-traz]

Upon careful research, by myself and the labor court, the law IS TRUE, and there appears to be no way around it. Thus, there is NO LONGER A PENALTY FOR THE WRONGFUL TERMINATION OF FOREIGN WORKERS AND TEACHERS in the Thai courts - this makes us all very vulnerable, not to mention the very racist implications of such a law!

Can you point to any documents?

[donna]

im not sure if that information is accurate. i was fired by a former employer for no real reason (they said they didnt want a foreigner in the job any more, and went on to hire a malaysian - go figure - racism at its worst, but thats a whole different thread i guess) and i took them to court and won.

the payout was definitely NOT 3-4 months per year worked. in an ideal situation, you should get 1 month in lieu of notice, if no notice was given, and then on top of that you get severance in accordance to the below, which has been taken from an english translation of the Thai labour law:

Section 118.

A boss shall pay compensation to an employee whose employment has been terminated as follows:

• (l)An employee who has worked consecutively for a full one hundred and twenty days but less than one full year shall be paid not less than thirty days the last wage rate or not less than the wages for the last thirty days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on a piece work basis.

• (2)An employee who has worked consecutively for one full year but not a full three years shall be paid at least an amount equivalent to ninety days’ pay at his or her most recent wage rate or not less than the wages earned for the last ninety days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on te basis of piece work.

• (3)An employee who has worked consecutively for a full three years but not a full six years shall be paid an amount at least equivalent to one hundred and eighty days’ pay at his or her most recent wage rate, or not less than the wages earned for the last one hundred and eighty days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on the basis of piece work.

• (4)An employee who has worked consecutively for a full six years but not a full ten years shall be paid an amount equivalent to at least two hundred and forty days’ pay at his or her most recent wage rate or not less than the wages earned for the last two hundred and forty days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on the basis of piece work.

• (5)An employee who has worked consecutively for a ten full years or more shall be paid an amount equivalent to at least three hundred days at his or her most recent wage rate, or not less than the wages for the last three hundred days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on the basis of piece work.

[PeaceBlondie]

keddy, I am not a lawyer, but as it has been explained to me, Thai law is totally different. You can lose a defamation lawsuit even if you prove that your statement was true. Also, I have heard that there is no 'tort law' in the English tradition, in Thailand.

[puyaidon]

It not only applies to foreigners but also Thai teachers also. My university is giving the heave-ho to everyone over 60. One year contracts subject to their renewal feelings. Over 70 gets the heave for good. Just another way to get the older higher paid teachers out and hire some younger less experienced teachers from the local universities. Shows what they consider, not quality but quantity. One can only wonder what the future business and political people will be like in the future.

[Issangeorge]

"One can only wonder what the future business and political people will be like in the future." As far as the political people it would be very hard to be worse than the present lot. Issangeorge

[ThePyawkt]

Upon careful research, by myself and the labor court, the law IS TRUE, and there appears to be no way around it. Thus, there is NO LONGER A PENALTY FOR THE WRONGFUL TERMINATION OF FOREIGN WORKERS AND TEACHERS in the Thai courts - this makes us all very vulnerable, not to mention the very racist implications of such a law!

Can you point to any documents?

I have copies of them - their codes are all in Thai - I am unsure how to communicate the actual codes... I've been trying to get an English translation, but none appear to exist. Let me see if I can switch to Thai language on my keyboard and I will try to peck out the codes... It will take time, I will try.

Thanks for the interest - I think we all need to be aware of this situation - it essentially invites us to be abused and condones discrimination, whether we are "farangs", or even poor migrant laborers, both groups that this society's economy heavily depends upon.

From a western perspective, this law would seem to be deem able by a judge to be unconstitutional and for it to thus be ignored. I wonder if such a thing could be pursued, granted that you would have to find someone willing and resourceful who could pursue it... ?

[ThePyawkt]

keddy, I am not a lawyer, but as it has been explained to me, Thai law is totally different. You can lose a defamation lawsuit even if you prove that your statement was true. Also, I have heard that there is no 'tort law' in the English tradition, in Thailand.

This appears to be true - as we were pursuing this case, we were strongly cautioned by attorneys that anything we say that "damages" the school could and would spell severe penalties and future suits against us, EVEN IF EVERYTHING WE SAID WAS TRUE AND INDISPUTABLE.

It's pretty hard to argue a case in which every revelation of factual wrong-doing will only get you in trouble - again, the big fish are protected and the little ones left to be eaten....

[ThePyawkt]

Both ThaiVisa and Ajarn.com (and ajarnforum.net) have rules against naming and shaming. Thai defamation law

There is at least one website that does name the school, and has had lots of posts, but the posters are careful to disguise themselves, and the website had to change its server to one overseas, because of exactly this problem. You can get in HUGE trouble for telling the truth, if it marks someone's face, in any way.

Lawyers we approached for help were reluctant to help us because the case was simple, well documented, and we had volumes of evidence against the school, showing the school's full intent and premeditation of their actions - to put this in court, you are making the school look bad, and they can sue you and your attorney for defamation! It seems like the uglier the offender is, the more social protection and intimidation they wield....

[ThePyawkt]

im not sure if that information is accurate. i was fired by a former employer for no real reason (they said they didnt want a foreigner in the job any more, and went on to hire a malaysian - go figure - racism at its worst, but thats a whole different thread i guess) and i took them to court and won.

the payout was definitely NOT 3-4 months per year worked. in an ideal situation, you should get 1 month in lieu of notice, if no notice was given, and then on top of that you get severance in accordance to the below, which has been taken from an english translation of the Thai labour law:

Section 118.

• (2)An employee who has worked consecutively for one full year but not a full three years shall be paid at least an amount equivalent to ninety days’ pay at his or her most recent wage rate or not less than the wages earned for the last ninety days of work in respect of an employee who is paid a wage on te basis of piece work.

The MOE had expanded this for teachers, putting it to 90 days of pay for each year completed, because schools have done this to teachers (thai and farang) so much in the past. One of my spouses aunts was a teacher for a private school for 12 years, when they were bought. The new owners were not wanting to pay the higher salaries of the seniored teachers and fired almost everyone. The teachers took them to the labor court and under MOE laws, they each received 90 days pay for each completed year. Our auntie got 4 years of salary because of this and retired early.

When it's Thai against Thai, they do demand a bit of equality, but when its us against them, it seems clear that we are kept as the underdog.....

[ThePyawkt]

I am sure that you will find another job soon. "keddy' is right. The school does seem very dodgy and you are probably better off not working for them.

True, Point taken and understood, but when you have a family, a bad job is better than no job....

[bendix]

I'm sorry but I can't let this stand unchallenged.

There is NO exemption for foreign workers from being protected by the Thai Labour Laws, including those relating to severance.

Numerous farang - including members of this forum - have received their due rights after severance, all with the full support of the Thai Labour Courts.

[PeaceBlondie]

Bendix, now that we have closed the ladyboy thread , could you be so kind as to point us in some general direction, please? I recall a couple of posts by a poster - Navajo? - winning a teacher suit in court.

[monkfish]

I thought this web server was based in USA not Thailand therefore not governed by Thai law.

People have to be warned about such institutes otherwise there is no point to this forum.

Edited August 8, 2008 by monkfish

[roygsd]

Both ThaiVisa and Ajarn.com (and ajarnforum.net) have rules against naming and shaming. Thai defamation law

There have been forums that have named and shamed these institutions though without going into too much detail. If you tell the truth about a particular place and these events really happened then it is not defamation, is it.

In law, defamation (also called calumny, libel, slander, and vilification) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressively stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government or nation a negative image. Slander refers to a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as written words or images. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts which arises where one person reveals information which is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person.^[1] "Unlike libel or slander, truth is not a defence for invasion of privacy."^[2]

False light laws are "intended primarily to protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being."^[3] If a publication of information is false, then a tort of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not technically false but is still misleading then a tort of false light might have occurred.^[3]

I am afraid that the laws and interpetation to which you are refering to are as much use as a hocolate teapot in LOS.

I understand that it is illegal to impune a thai's character in LOS even when th matter to which you may be bringing to other peoples attention is proven to be true, only in LOS eh!

roy gsd

[roygsd]

Hi Folks,

I am posting this as both a potential warning, and as a question, since I am having to go through this ordeal myself.

I have a Thai family and have been living and working here, full-time, for almost 5 years. I have been a teacher at a new international school for the last two years, having completed my second year at the school this last June. In January the school sent out questionnaires to some of the teachers saying that they were interested in having them back for next year, and were we planning on staying with the school. I was one of the ones who received the letter - I checked the YES box, signed the letter, and returned it to my coordinator. I would have a job next school year - HA!

February came and went, March arrived, and people began asking at teacher meetings about when contracts would be drafted, etc. We were told that a new business and HR manager was hired, and we would have to wait while they were brought up to speed.

March evaporated, and well into April, one or two people had been given contracts, but all the senior teachers, ready to begin our third year, had not been given any. When we would ask, again, we were told that the new HR dept. was working diligently to sort through our cases and et everyone taken care of, that we had nothing to worry about, and to please be patient.

May 1st arrived and ALL senior teachers received a "Letter of Gratitude" from the school saying that our last day of work was the last day of school, and to have a nice life. WE WERE OUT OUR JOBS!

We were given only 30 day notice, and notified long after all the job and teaching fairs had concluded in January and February - we were screwed, and many of us have families and kids! There was nothing wrong with our job performances - we all had glowing performance reviews. It was unprovoked.

We approached the HR Director, asking what this meant about the summer pay. The Director responded that we would be dealt with on a case by case basis as to whether we would receive our summer pay or not - even if it was in our BILINGUAL, signed contracts. Many of us also had an air ticket as part of our contract, and we were informed then that that would not be honored.

Searching job websites, it was clear that the school was recruiting new teachers to replace us, that were being offered a substantially lower salary - they sacrificed us to cut costs.

The last day of school came and went. The following day we went to the Thai Ministry of Labor, who reviewed the situation and agreed that a serious tort had been committed, and sent us to the MOE - that it fell under their jurisdiction. They promptly reviewed the case and agreed that the school would have to honor the summer pay, as outlined in our contracts, were a little uncertain about the air tickets, but said that we would each receive THREE-FOUR MONTHS SALARY FOR EACH YEAR WE HAD WORKED THERE, since we had been wrongfully terminated. This was the policy of the Thai labor laws and the labor regulations for teachers, set by the MOE.

I had heard of this before, and felt it made sense, to protect ALL teachers from schools that created these situations at the expense of dedicated educators. The case was sent to the labor court, and was first heard at the end of June.

The first hearing went well, and the judge and all members of the court indicated that the law would be applied and that the school would have to pay the balance of each contract, and 3-4 months of salary, per year worked, to each teacher, due to wrongful termination. The second hearing was sent for the beginning of July.

At the second hearing, the schools attorney produced a copy of a law that was enacted about 4 years ago that EXEMPTED FOREIGN WORKERS from the wrongful termination penalty set by the labor laws! The judge was shocked that such a thing existed, and immediately recessed to see if this was actually true. The Labor Court did not seem to even be aware of this law!

Upon careful research, by myself and the labor court, the law IS TRUE, and there appears to be no way around it. Thus, there is NO LONGER A PENALTY FOR THE WRONGFUL TERMINATION OF FOREIGN WORKERS AND TEACHERS in the Thai courts - this makes us all very vulnerable, not to mention the very racist implications of such a law!

I am wanting to make sure that people know of this issue and am asking if anyone else has experience with this issue or similar one, and if there is any knowledge out there pertaining to this. I have met with several lawyers, who all seemed surprised about the existence of this exclusion, and upon review, felt there was no way around it and no other protectionary provisions for foreign workers.

Any insight, knowledge, etc. would be very appreciated!

Thanks!

Hi

Having read other teachers postings relating to their similar experiences it seems to me that teachers need to get together and open their own school true it will cost money but if run properly with good quality teachers it should give provide job security.

Alternatively get out of teaching into more lucrative employment so if this happens again then you should be able to weather the storm better.

Roy gsd

Edited August 8, 2008 by roygsd

[wangsuda]

I thought this web server was based in USA not Thailand therefore not governed by Thai law.

People have to be warned about such institutes otherwise there is no point to this forum.

Actually, Thai Visa is hosted in Singapore:

Hostname www.thaivisa.com ISP NewMedia Express Pte Ltd. Singapore Web Hosting Service Provider

Country Singapore Country Code SG (SGP)

City Singapore Region 00

IP Address 203.174.85.146 Postal Code Unknown

Flag SG Latitude 1.2931

Local time*

Unknown

Longitude 103.8558

http://geotool.servehttp.com/?ip=203.174.8...ww.thaivisa.com

[orpheus454]

Both ThaiVisa and Ajarn.com (and ajarnforum.net) have rules against naming and shaming. Thai defamation law

There is at least one website that does name the school, and has had lots of posts, but the posters are careful to disguise themselves, and the website had to change its server to one overseas, because of exactly this problem. You can get in HUGE trouble for telling the truth, if it marks someone's face, in any way.

Lawyers we approached for help were reluctant to help us because the case was simple, well documented, and we had volumes of evidence against the school, showing the school's full intent and premeditation of their actions - to put this in court, you are making the school look bad, and they can sue you and your attorney for defamation! It seems like the uglier the offender is, the more social protection and intimidation they wield....

Are you suggesting that evidence presented in a Thai court of law is not privileged, and is as actionable as something said elsewhere, such as a rally or a newspaper?

I'm no lawyer either, but I find this difficult to believe.

[mizzi39]

I thought this web server was based in USA not Thailand therefore not governed by Thai law.

People have to be warned about such institutes otherwise there is no point to this forum.

Well said monkfish as I absolutely agree, although I have no idea where this web server is based. I remember not so long ago opening a topic about the relevance of TEFL programs and the topic did not last even 24 hours before it was closed, and i didn't even name or shame any of the programs.

Since foreigners who work in the LOS do not share (and have very little if any) the same rights under Thai labor law as Thai nationals do, there should be a section reserved on this forum to give foreigners a heads up when it comes to dodgy employers.

Edit: I see that someone posted TV as being registered in Singapore.

Edited August 9, 2008 by mizzi39

[donna]

as mentioned earlier, folks, i fought my old employer in court and won. the chef from my old workplace also recently sued and won. the old manager (who fired me, but we are still friends funnily enough) is in the process of sueing them and it looks like he will also win.

we are ALL foreigners.

we ALL used the same female thai lawyer.

we were ALL in the right.

the thai labour law bats for the one in the right. they are not, in my opinion, discriminatory against westerners.

in fact, the judge in my case actually told me that there was an attempt to bribe him by my old employer, but he did not accept it, and would not consider it. he told me 'we are not corrupt in this court, and we will fight for the rights of those who are innocent'.

dont let the fact that you are western turn you against taking action. if you are clearly in the right, you should go for it. i have faith in the thai labour laws and would not hesitate to do it again if i was wrong done by.

[mizzi39]

as mentioned earlier, folks, i fought my old employer in court and won. the chef from my old workplace also recently sued and won. the old manager (who fired me, but we are still friends funnily enough) is in the process of sueing them and it looks like he will also win.

we are ALL foreigners.

we ALL used the same female thai lawyer.

we were ALL in the right.

the thai labour law bats for the one in the right. they are not, in my opinion, discriminatory against westerners.

in fact, the judge in my case actually told me that there was an attempt to bribe him by my old employer, but he did not accept it, and would not consider it. he told me 'we are not corrupt in this court, and we will fight for the rights of those who are innocent'.

dont let the fact that you are western turn you against taking action. if you are clearly in the right, you should go for it. i have faith in the thai labour laws and would not hesitate to do it again if i was wrong done by.

Well done, and good to hear this!!!!!!!!!!!

[Scott]

Hopefully, the OP will keep us posted as to how this case progresses. I think one of the unfortunate parts of the Thai law is that in a lot of instances it can be quite confusing.

This has some implications for our school--although we seldom let someone go unless it is for good cause and can be reasonably well verified, it's always good to know exactly who is entitled to what and when.

[bendix]

There's no confusion Scott. The law is pretty straightforward on this, both the letter of the law and the practiced case law.

Again, there is ABSOLUTELY no exemption for foreigners.

[Ijustwannateach]

^From my limited experience with legal labour issues here, Bendix is 100% correct.

[Loaded]

I have experience with the Labour Court. An ex-employer didn't pay me my last monthly salary. I went to the Labour Office, they phoned the employer immediately and were quite forceful with him. As this didn't work they led me downstairs and gave me the services of one of their lawyers for free to write my complaint. The case was heard within a month, and the 3 judges all gave my employer a very difficult time in the courtroom and dented a lot of his face. He paid. He didn't appeal. I was listened to sympathetically by all and if there was any bias, it was in my favour.

Nothing negative to say about the Thai LC and Thai Labour Law.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Loaded

[Maestro]

..Again, there is ABSOLUTELY no exemption for foreigners.

If I have understood the OP correctly he has found out that not the labour law but a regulation of the Ministry of Education makes that distinction between Thai and foreign teachers regarding severance pay.

I have copies of them - their codes are all in Thai - I am unsure how to communicate the actual codes...

This is one case where you are allowed to post something in Thai. No need to try and type it in Thai here, just scan the title page and page with the relevant rule of that document and attach it here to a post.

--

Maestro