taxidriver Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Iv'e heard many stories and I'm sure you have as well, that many people claim that they have attained work permits by using fake degrees. Apparently, they either use Khoa Sarn Rd forgeries or purchase them on-line through non-existant universities. Sounds like risky buisiness to me and if they are getting away with it, then I wonder how long it will last, as Thailand can be very unpredictable as to what they will crack down on next. This is something that I wouldn't and don't need to do, however I am curious to know the reality of these claims. Is it a myth or a fact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Factual, although obviously it's wrong, and bad and leaves you open to being deported, fined and/or imprisoned, etc. Do a search and you'll see we've covered this before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khutan Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Do it at your own risk...... Get caught and see what happens, I am sure the experience will not be pleasant. In short Don't do it, just don't its illegal and the risk you are running is great. Ask yourself what will happen if the place you are working wnts to get you a teacher lisence ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ijustwannateach Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Discussed many times. The practice is wrong and at any decent school it eventually gets exposed. Better to be honest and manage to get a job WITHOUT a degree as many have done legitimately, especially outside Bangkok. "Steven" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Ask yourself what will happen if the place you are working wnts to get you a teacher lisence ???? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Please tell me what will and has happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxidriver Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 Firstly, as I said before, I'd NEVER do it. I have a degree anyway.But, it is an interesting topic of conversation. If these claims are true, then why doesn't the TME do anything? Sorry if this topic has been done before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxidriver Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 Discussed many times. The practice is wrong and at any decent school it eventually gets exposed. "Steven" <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree that it's wrong, but if there have been cases exposed in the past, then why don't we ever hear about it? In the newspapers and the news clippings section on this forum, Iv'e seen articles on 'Frenchman gets deported for stealing cheese' or 'policeman kills 2 tourists', but never anything about this. mhmhmhm...interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PvtDick Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Firstly, as I said before, I'd NEVER do it. I have a degree anyway.But, it is an interesting topic of conversation. If these claims are true, then why doesn't the TME do anything? Sorry if this topic has been done before. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The TME probably does not have the time nor the resources to confirm each individual's educational bona fides. To do that, they would have to contact the university overseas. Take into account that if your employer helps you forge a degree -- or knows that it is forged -- it will always have the upper hand over you. Any rights you may have had under the Thai Labour Law are out the window. In a potential dispute, all the employer has to do is threaten to turn you in for document forgery, and your goose is cooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 (edited) ^ Good points! I actually know a chap that was kind of blackmailed/deported after his school helped him get one! Generally the MoE doesn't check, so they'll generally only 'bust' you if it's a really, really crap one. It's your employing school that will (if anyone does) check you out! I heard of one chap reported to the MoE for having a dodgy degree by people he was working with.....6 months later he was still there (the loss of face thing kinda comes in effect!). Please do not get the idea I'm condoning this in any way at all, but it happens and to sweep it under the rug would be doing a disservice to the issue (unless one of the bigger Mods tells me off ) Edited November 25, 2004 by kenkannif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paully Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I'm afraid it is an unfortunate fact that some with fake degrees get work here. But, this is not to condone it in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ijustwannateach Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I agree that there's very little effect at the top level (MOE) even though there are severe penalties at that level. Most of the time it's discovered and/or punished at the school level- and quite often by the farang coworkers rather than the Thais (who don't have much of a clue!) I have heard about at least one farang DOS who was escorted off the premises of his school when his farang coworkers discovered his degree was off an Internet mill. The school, however, naturally blamed the messengers and acted like it was *their fault* that the situation had occurred. Nothing went higher level than that, and of course it was all shushed up at the school- who's gonna want to tell the parents that the hoity toity school hired a DOS with no degree? THAT's why you don't read about these types of scandals in papers here. It's no different than in other places in the world, though- schools everywhere have a bigger incentive to cover up scandal than to reveal it. "Steven" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toastwars Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Although I agree with you all in principle, I know many excelent english teachers who don't have a degree, have gone the TEFL route and become first class, attentive and down to earth tutors. What is this insistance of the Thai government that you must have a degree all about, I could be wrong but I am sure that very few countries insist on this??? not sure. I am sure "steven" will put me right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Actually most countries insist upon it. Generally TEFL certs (be it CELTA, Trinity or whatever) are thought of as post graduate qualifications, it's the degree that gets you the job (generally). I agree with you that the degree does not make the teacher (again there are threads about this), but this is more of a discussion about fake degrees, and not whether you need a degree to be able to teach (I don't think you do personally). Thailand sets these rules and we have to comply with them is the bottom line, regardless (unfortunately) of how we may feel about the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ijustwannateach Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Actually, TW, this is a different topic. You were asking whether people had posed as having degrees when they didn't and what the penalties were- I answered that one. The new topic you've raised is whether a degree is necessary to teach TEFL and/or other topics here in Thailand- that HAS been discussed to death here in way too many threads, so you can go searching. In a nutshell, I say for TEFL you don't need a college degree (and the MOE generally agrees mostishly). For other topics I'd say you do. In any case, the MOE has given WPs to people at just about all levels of education for all of these types of jobs. Ken and I are common-sense advocates- if they can do the job, let them do it. Folks with better certs will get the better paid jobs, that's all. TEFL itself certainly ain't rocket science. "Steven" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxidriver Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 Actually, TW, this is a different topic. You were asking whether people had posed as having degrees when they didn't and what the penalties were- I answered that one. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think you meant TD not TW, yes I agree with all thats been said on these topics, I do recall reading somewhere before that a women works for various schools to investigate false degrees. The main reasons people take the risk is for the yearly visa and better money, and it must be hard being a great ESL teacher and having to do boarder runs and get a shit pay, but it's still risky business using fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Actually, TW, this is a different topic. You were asking whether people had posed as having degrees when they didn't and what the penalties were- I answered that one. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think you meant TD not TW IJWT was referring to toastwars' post, not yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajarn Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Although I agree with you all in principle, I know many excelent english teachers who don't have a degree, have gone the TEFL route and become first class, attentive and down to earth tutors. What is this insistance of the Thai government that you must have a degree all about, I could be wrong but I am sure that very few countries insist on this??? not sure. I am sure "steven" will put me right <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The reason is, a degree is now required for any accredited teacher in Thailand, be them Thai or farang. The exceptions are annubaan teachers and some vocational and sports teachers. At the university level, a masters is required for any teacher teaching graduate students studying for advanced degrees. Some have reported that the MoE has made some exceptions for some farang teachers in the last few years. That wasn't the case (intentionally) when I was in the game. I also agree with you that there are many excellent teachers without degrees. And studying in a university is not the best training for teachers, ime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Outside of Bangkok (generally in the not so popular provinces) it's still possible to get a WP without a degree, if you have the backing of the prinicipal (and the MoE is willing to play ball1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rav Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Iv'e heard many stories and I'm sure you have as well, that many people claim that they have attained work permits by using fake degrees. Apparently, they either use Khoa Sarn Rd forgeries or purchase them on-line through non-existant universities. Sounds like risky buisiness to me and if they are getting away with it, then I wonder how long it will last, as Thailand can be very unpredictable as to what they will crack down on next. This is something that I wouldn't and don't need to do, however I am curious to know the reality of these claims. Is it a myth or a fact? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluebear Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 What is it with people just quoting another post and not adding anything? What is it supposed to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 I think the new quote function takes a while to get used to, although that doesn't explain why there's not a further post with a question or a question in the quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jingjingna Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I used to work with a bloke in his sixties who openly discussed about paying a visit to KSR to buy a dodgy degree so that the school would then get him a WP and TL as he did not want to work "illegally". He had already worked there a fair few months before doing so and the school asked no questions when he did produce his documents. Couldn't stand the old git but that's beside the point. He got his WP and TL much to my surprise...seems no one at any level checks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdnvic Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 I can't condone it, as I think it's bad enough that there are so many "english teachers" out there that can't speak a lick of Thai (How can you possibly explain the nuances of a complicated language such as english without it?). However, I can remember two incidents where I was offered work teaching only to have them look disturbed when learning that I have no degree. Forget all the articles I've published, the columns, plays, etc and the fact that I speak passable thai. I didn't have a BA (<deleted> does that qualify anyone for?) so they came to the conclusion that I was not qualified to teach english. (Even though I never applied, they had asked me.) Experiencing this makes me think that maybe the superficial "qualifications" they are looking for give some people who could make good teachers a rationale to fake it. I mean, some useless teacher who can only repeat words over and over to their students like a piece of software because they can't speak the native language is more qualified than a fluent speaker of both because he holds a BA? Bad I dea to fake it, but are many of the "english teachers" working in Thailand now any better? cv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 (How can you possibly explain the nuances of a complicated language such as english without it?). I don't know? How did your parents and school teachers teach you English without being able to speak to you in goo goo gaa gaa language? And Thai teachers speak Thai and they've done a superb job of teaching Thai students English over the last x amount of years haven't they (I'm typing this with a heavily sarcastic tone in my fingers!)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ijustwannateach Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 ^what he said! Having done the teaching English thing a lot longer time in Japan, I'd say that by the end of it (when I could speak Japanese) my understanding of Japanese *helped* me teach English there, but was not necessary. You understand, don't you, that when you *teach* a language as a skill, you don't use the native language of the students, ideally? If you can't imagine how this is done, maybe you need a TEFL course! There are clear market reasons, from the demand of the students for educated professionals to the need to screen out the true riff-raff, for imposing educational qualifications on teachers at any level. It's true that the qualification alone doesn't make the teacher, but it's not a mystery why the schools are interested in them. As far as I'm concerned, let he who can, teach- but I'm not going to blame schools that raise the bar. That said, I'll probably be whining when all the schools start requiring Ph.Ds in TEFL!!! "Steven" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jingjingna Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 ^ I agree with IJWT but my understanding that a degree is not a requirement by the schools but from the Ministry Of Ed, innit? The day they decide on a minimum of a Ph.d, I'll be on the first plane/train/boat out of here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jingjingna Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 ..I mean, "my understanding IS..." Samlor, tuk-tuk, horse and cart, whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenkannif Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Well it depends on what, where and who you're teaching in regards to the MoE requiring a degree! But you're kind of right most schools I'd say would be happy just to have a good, reliable farang teacher with or without a degree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jockstar Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 I can't condone it, as I think it's bad enough that there are so many "english teachers" out there that can't speak a lick of Thai (How can you possibly explain the nuances of a complicated language such as english without it?). Good schools will provide you with a Thai co teacher for translation and also class management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ijustwannateach Posted December 6, 2004 Share Posted December 6, 2004 Never needed outside translation or management when dealing with "normal" students [not LD or rich/spoiled, etc.]. That's what modelling is for... "Steven" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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