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BANGKOK 19 August 2019 05:09
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Foreverford

Green manures, cover crops and nitrogen fixing trees

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Howdy folks. This is the first time posting and would like to find a source to purchase seeds for green manuring. Sesbania Rostrata looks promising for what I'd like to try but am open to anything available anywhere. Farming is science and science is experimenting (I'll use almost anything if I can just find where and how to buy it). My family has been farming for nearly 15 centuries on the same small mountainside and it is all good (still can't really make much money at it but haven't ever had the bank take it either) and obviously been organic most of the time. I helped write the first Health and Safety legislation that created organic standards in California thru the CCOF.

Sorry for being verbose but I don't want to be treated as a novice beginner (treated as a failure is no problem as I've failed more than one year in the farming game) I really really want to buy something that I can start to use this year. We used to use a lot of fava beans. The farms are in Buri Ram near Surin but I will travel anywhere to buy whatever may be available. I've got a Ford 6600 with a "three" two "sevens" (anyone need to buy a brand new "seven") an adjustable 18 blade disc, a 2.3 meter Howard Rotovator and a 2.5 meter box scraper that I custom made so I feel I can incorporate whatever green manures I can get to grow. This is the first year and we're growing Hom Mali and got lucky so far as it is almost all well over head high (no poisons but still using chemical fertilizer) but it would sure be nice to see the sun for a day or two. Like some say if god didn't want to make farmers he never would have made Ford tractors. Thanks for any help.

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Try

rice seed center, Surin (044) 513693

rice seed center, KalaSin (043) 812117, 812118

Ask for "Sa-No-African" seeds

Edited by mrissara

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Or this thread, winged beans [tue pru] a good nitro replacment plant and a cash crop.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Winged-Beans...hl=winged+beans

or go straight to this site,

http://www.leafforlife.org/PAGES/PSOPHOCA.HTM

And welcome to the forum Foreverford,

Cheers, Lickey.

That's interesting, we've got the winged beans growing now. What's the best way to put them back into the soil? Will using the leaves and stems as a mulch work or is composting them a better idea?

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Hi smithson, it seems the beans can be used either way, composted or mulch, i never did get to plant the 3 rai with beans, [you know what its like, Mrs in a hurry to get things done ect] but we do have 2 areas with the beans, and when they grow to thick, i thin them out and compost them, to get seed, leave them on the plant till they go brown and dry, seperate the seeds from the pod, sun dry them and then rub in a sieve or calendar to remove the coating, soak a few hours then plant,

This is what Chownah had to say,,,

There is probably no need to swap the leaves for manure....pound for pound the leaves are likely to be just as good as the manure....I don't know this for sure for winged beans as I have not had time to research winged beans yet but a high quality green manure crop will have (kilo for kilo) about the same nitrogen content as manure. Of course if you can get more kilo of manure than the feed you supply then you could be making a gain....it depends on alot of factors.

Cheers, Lickey.

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Hi Foreverford,

You might be interested in "stylo" (Stylosanthes guinensis) and in particular the variety "Ubon Stylo". You can buy good quality scarified seed from the Faculty of Agriculture, University of Ubon Ratchathani. It is normally planted by farmers as a forage crop for raising livestock, but being a legume, I think it would be good as a green manure/cover crop. You can read more about this and other tropical forage crops at: http://www.tropicalforages.info/ (see the forage fact sheets). The web page (English version) of the faculty showing their contact details at the bottom is at: http://www.agri.ubu.ac.th/eng/

Best regards,

JB.

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rice seed center, Surin (044) 513693

rice seed center, KalaSin (043) 812117, 812118

Ask for "Sa-No-African" seeds

Thanks much and running hard right now. Down to watch the women play volleyball in Phuket then a big pro-am golf tourney in Hua Hin. Now who says a farmer can do nothing but lose money bust his knucles and get greasy??? I think it was John Fogerty with "Creedence who sang about "who'll stop the rain". "Whoever it is I wish they'd cut out quick" that's Dylan and we could all use anybody's good wishes to turn it off. Pop's -in-law has some rice in the lowert area and it's pretty full of leeches and they're having to go in now and cut so they can get it out of the wet stuff and to higher ground. Vietnam is getting washed off the map as we speak as i see it. I know Willie Nelson could make a song of it all. I assume the "Sa-No-African" is the sesbania hopefully I'll be calling today and will update everyone when i get the hang of using this forum as this is a first for me in anything like this. Just like a farmer got to know everything in the world about everything but always will be a bit dumb about most of it. Thanks

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What about the simple soybean?? You get food from it and, if innoculated... nitrogen as well as humus and food crop as well.

can the innoculant be bought here??

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What about the simple soybean?? You get food from it and, if innoculated... nitrogen as well as humus and food crop as well.

can the innoculant be bought here??

Thanks Jaideeguy. I'm looking at all options and know this was actually the ancient use for this "nowdays" foodsource. I really like your logo, reminds me of just before a little league baseball game. I had about a half dozen free games on the local Menlo Park pizza parlor pinball machine and the guys came in and said tough luck they were going to unplug it and move it as they were setting up some music gear to play in the 15' x 15' back room. It was the first time I remember smelling patchouli oil as beautiful young girls in long skirts came in with the gang. Many years later I found it was the Warlocks first gig and and the rest I guess is just old dead history. Peace and Love me

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rice seed center, Surin (044) 513693

rice seed center, KalaSin (043) 812117, 812118

Ask for "Sa-No-African" seeds

I've tried these numbers nummerous times at different times of the day without luck. I would assume that maybe everyone is out in the field but no luck with an answer. thanks

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This thread may be interesting, it talks about sunn hemp for green manure, pls post any info you're able to find

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Improving-So...amp;pid=1721199

Thanks Smithson

I finally found a supplier of seed. Sun Hemp is called Paw Teung (pahh teu enhg) here and it goes for 40 baht a kilo if you are buying in bulk (I bought 200 kilos). They say 3-5 kilos per rai for green manure and Chownah has said he has had success in the 8 kilo a rai amount for broadcasting and discing. It germinates extremely fast, 4-5 hours soaking in warm water for me got some of the seeds to start showing its roots. Be careful not to soak too long if you want to "pre-emerge" your seeds as any longer than that or a delay in planting could be trouble. We just planted that and Sahnoh African (sesbania rostrata 40 baht a kilo and 3-5 kilo to a rai) last thursday the 25th and I will try to inform as the results come in. We are trying a few different methods to grow these two along with another bean that I don't have the name right now that is lima bean in size. The "Sanoh" is reputed to be a difficult grower with germination up to two weeks. Below is the contact of the company.

Thai Tanaht Praset in Chai Badan formely known as Lam Narai on Highway 21 half-way between Saraburi and Petchabun they are on the right side of the road about a kilo or two from the main clock tower on the highway.

Suenee 081-8202626

Tua Plu seeds in bulk are impossible to locate still but I will continue to look. I'd love to at least get a few cans but can't find them.

036-461701

Too too long on the computer and too sick to give more now but will update

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I don't know about your area or about current availability, but in Chiang Mai I got free jack-bean seeds from the 'Land Development Office' (about 10k north of the SuperHwy on the Mae Rim (107) hwy, on the west (Doi Pui) side between the hospital and the (121) ring road).

At that time they had black beans, sesbania and others too. We didn't need a 'tabien baan', only my wife's ID, filled out a form with address and amount of rai. They calculated coverage rates and based the allotment on that; we pulled around back with the pickup and they loaded us up with the appropriate number of sacks of seed. I was only seeding about 4 rai, so I don't know what their upper limit is.

The land development office also does free soil analysis. The only problem is that it takes 45 days (sent to Lampang) and is a very basic NPK report with no interpretation or recommendations. I get better, more complete, 2 week soil analysis reports from Mae Jo University soil science department for 500 baht. And they have a soil science professor available to interpret and make recommendations for amendments if needed.

But you don't need a soil analysis to 'green manure'. don

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mulch great stuff !! I like to use a mixture of coconut fibre (brilliant for retaining moisture), banana plants; old leaves, chopped up trunks once they have fruited and thinned suckers (all a good source of organic pottasium), burnt rice husks and weeds (altough I burn any that are seeding). I collect all these towards the end of the rainy season and start to compost them using my homebrew BIM. Once the hot phase of composting is over (about 3 weeks) and I'm happy the materials are no longer using up nitrogen to decompose I apply it my vegetable beds to a depth of about 5 inches. This is not like well matured compost used for potting but a very coarse material which breaks down slowly over the growing season, in fact the banana leaves and coconut fibre take about 10 months to fully decompose. I top this off with another 5-10 inches of rice straw into which i make planting holes down to the level of the first layer fill them with homemade potting compost and then either direct seed our plant out plug plants. By the end of the following wet season everything has completely broken down giving maybe an extra 2 inches of topsoil and I start again. This has created raised beds on clay soil from scratch without buying in any "din dam". I started after the end of the rainy season (when the clay became workable but still had good moisture content by loosening the soil to a depth of 12 inches watering in some gypsum (an organic clay breaker) and proceeding as above 3 years ago. I now have some half decent soil !! Sure its a slow process and the area I was working on was only a kitchen garden but mulch really works!! My new project is a 2 rai site and I'm taking a different approach, It's paddy field I bought a couple of years ago and after a couple of rice harvests off it I'm turning it into my home plot. In the past 2 months I've had dug 2 fishponds the spill from which has raised the level of the plot by 50-70 cms I've just finished a post and rail perimeter fence made from eucalyptus. I'm gonna try the permaculture method using NFT's and sheetmulch to try and establish a wide range of fruit trees (a forest garden). See my earlier document link for some of the methods and the thinking behind it. I'm familiar with the mulch mats used in the U.K. and have started making my own by sandwiching corrugated cardboard with layers of old feed sacks using pva glue, hopefully the plastic feed sacks will slow down the termites but who knows. Love the idea of recycled matresses and will try and pump the mother-in-law for info as she used to make and sell them according to the wife. I know that in the U.k. the use of carpet is now frowned upon by organic growers due to the residue of cleaning chemicals in them (sometimes you just dont think of these things) !! My old man taught me the trick of reclaiming wasteground years ago when he took over a very neglected allotment plot just outside Barnsley by growing comfrey pissing all over the place, laying carpet and leaving it for an entire year. You can imagine the locals (most of whom used their plots to house their pidgeon lofts and were hard as nails coal miners) faces when this southern softie turned up and proceeded as aforementioned !!! A year later though I helped him roll up the carpet and it was pure loam not a weed in sight and more worms per square foot than I've yet to see again !! He grew some fantastic veg on that site for over 10 years !! I believe he stumbled across the method in an old book by Henry Doubleday . Other methods proscribed included reversing your car over over tough brassica stalks to crush them and speed up the composting process and collecting dogends from pub ashtrays to make a nicotine insecticide, definitely a man before his time !! happy organics folks

Have a look at the green manure posting over the last few months. Paw Tuengh is a readily available bean used in Thailand and 4 hours in warm water and you can see it ready to sprout.Get it in some wet earth and in two months you'll see it flower and chop it up and work it in or add to the compost and underground you'll have that beautiful nitrogen fixed to its roots that was once part of the air you breath. Very quick germinating and growing plant that will break down extremely easily. This is the simplest form of doing organic soil enhancement on large parcels of land and is very inexpensive and a real pleasure. Note there should be some form of composted manure in the soil to guarantee that the legume will be able to fix nitrogen. Probably had water buffalo on your 2 rai forever. Enjoy and loved the stories of you and your pop showing folks that there are a few different ways to do things. Choke Dee

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