Green manures, cover crops and nitrogen fixing trees

[teletiger 381]

Loong. Googled "non innoculated legumes". Lots came up.

http://www.ibiblio.org/london/permaculture...2/msg00096.html

Quote:

If the soil is already rich in nutrients (particularly nitrogen)

>then the legume will simply grow like a normal plant using the

>elements from the soil, and very little atmospheric nitrogen will

>be fixed. The nitrogen nodules may still grow on the roots, but

>they will not be functioning (Greg showed how to test a nodule

>to see if atmospheric fixing was taking place). In other words,

>it is the poorest soils which will fire legumes into fixing the

>most atmospheric nitrogen.

>

>However, no nitrogen will be fixed at all if the correct

>mycorrhizal bacteria is missing, as it is the symbiotic

>relationship between the plant and the bacteria which fixes

>the nitrogen - the plant cannot do it on its own. Most native

>legumes are able to find the appropriate mycorrhiza in our soils,

>but introduced species may have a hard time finding the one they

>need. This is why legume crops are now inoculated with a species-

>specific mycorrhiza (this is the area Greg now works in -

>identifying and manufacturing the specific mycorrhiza for farm

>legume crops).

It seems from this that legumes will take their nitrogen growth needs from the earth, innoculated or not.

Only innoculated plants will then go on to fix nodes.

Regards.

Edit: do you mean black mung beans?...as in http://www.fotosearch.com/IST517/1640686/

Enjoy Sonkran.

Edited April 13, 2009 by teletiger

[loong 1,987]

Hi Teletiger,

I'm enjoying Songkran very much at the moment - I'm sat at the computer trying to get my new internet connection working on my new computer. It's very noisy outside in the village and I will be out later to get a soaking.

The beans I have are just what I bought in Tesco Lotus and stayed in the cupboard too long. As they are beans, i thought I would see if they will grow - and yes they do. I'm not growing to harvest, just for the fast growing greenery and, with luck, functioning root nodules as I've been incorporating partially composted organic material into the soil. I'm not sure if they are the same as a similar bean that I tried before, if they are, they will grow but not flower as the day length is not right for them.

The beans are just labelled Black bean, in Thai - ฤั่ดำ -Thua dam, not sure if they are the same as in your photo link or not. Many beans look the same.

I have looked at many websites, but they all seem to be fixated on nitrogen fixing in the soil. None actually seem to give the info whether or not legumes in a depleted soil will absorb nitrogen from the air if the innoculating enzymes are not present. I just want to know if there is not enough nitrogen in the soil, will legumes take their needs from the air, innoculated or not?

From this website

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AG152

Symbiotic Nitrogen Fixation

Soon after a legume begins to grow, special N-fixing bacteria that reside in the soil invade the tiny root hairs and multiply in large numbers. The legume roots, in reaction to this infection, form tumor-like swellings called nodules on the root surface (see Figure 1). Bacteria inside the nodules absorb air from the soil and convert (fix) gaseous N into ammonia (NH3). The association between the legume host plant and the nodule bacteria is mutually beneficial (symbiotic). The plant furnishes the necessary energy that enables the bacteria to fix gaseous N from the atmosphere and pass it on to the plant for use in producing protein. This partnership is known as symbiotic N

fixation.

From reading other links, I had the impression that legumes absorb nitrogen through their leaves, a fair assumption if you are ignorant like me. But this states that the nodules take their nitrogen from air in the soil. That would mean that the soil will need to be loose, not compacted. It would seem to me that legumes are absolutely useless in a clay soil.

I have dug in a lot of partially composted organic material and now I wonder if the legumes will compete for the available nitrogen. The partially composted material wants nitrogen to fully compost and the legumes want nitrogen to grow and if inoculant is present will take more in the nodules. Mind you, now that everything has been well dug over and mixed the actual volume is twice the sum of its parts, so there must be plenty of air in there. I just hope that it's enough.

We will see.

[jandtaa 9]

vigna unguiculata

vigna mungo

Thai plant names (vignas)

Hi Loong 

hope these help with identification , the black bean I've sown is black seeded cow-pea, I think, just waiting for leaf, flower etc to confirm. Bit pushed for time at the minute with work commitments and sowing up veg and salad seeds (780 lettuce so far in various stages of growth) but if I get a couple of days off I'll try to post some more about nitrogen fixing. 

cheers for now and a slightly belated sawatdee pee mai

J

[loong 1,987]

Thanks for the links.

Thua Dam is apparently

Bachapin bean, Black-eyed bean, Black eyed cowpea, Black eyed dolichos, Black eyed pea, Common cowpea, Cultivated African cowpea, Cowgram, Cow pea, Crowder bean, Southern pea, Crowder pea, Marble pea, Poona pea, Kafir bean.

So pretty confusing as these beans are black with a white eye.

I guess that I have planted black seeded cowpeas of some type - there seem so many. Still I suppose that it doesn't really matter as they are not intended as a crop.

Now it's a matter of waiting and hoping for some pink nodules on the roots.

[loong 1,987]

I'm very happy,

nearly had an organicasm.

Beans have been in about 4 weeks now, I've planted them VERY close together and so have been cutting them back, so they are bushing more than running. Cuttings are going on the compost heap or as mulch. Today, I dug out a root and it had about 30 nodules about 5mm diameter and they are PINK.

Obviously the necessary bacteria was already present in the soil, so I now know that the black beans are doing their job.

When do you get back to Thailand Jandtaa, look forward to hearing some more from you.

Edited April 26, 2009 by loong

[jandtaa 9]

I'm very happy,

nearly had an organicasm.

Beans have been in about 4 weeks now, I've planted them VERY close together and so have been cutting them back, so they are bushing more than running. Cuttings are going on the compost heap or as mulch. Today, I dug out a root and it had about 30 nodules about 5mm diameter and they are PINK.

Obviously the necessary bacteria was already present in the soil, so I now know that the black beans are doing their job.

When do you get back to Thailand Jandtaa, look forward to hearing some more from you.

Hi Loong 

Back in LOS around about the 2nd of September most likely depending on work, so just in time for the new growing season  !!

Glad your black beans are doing well and fixing nitrogen  (have you managed to confirm their identity through the foliage ?) love the term "organicasm" by the way !!

May your "nodules" remain full and healthily pink !! J 

[loong 1,987]

Jantdaa,

thanks to Teletiger and confirmed by your links and looking at the foliage, they are definitely Black Mung Beans. I couldn't be sure when Teletiger first posted the photo link, but now I am.

Also known as Black Gram, Black Matpe, Black Mung Bean, Mung Bean, Rice Bean, Urd, Urd Bean, Urd-Bean, Urdi Black Bean, Urid

http://zipcodezoo.com/Plants/V/Vigna_mungo/

I'm not sure, but I think that this is the bean they use to make beansprouts.

[Foreverford 25]

This thread may be interesting, it talks about sunn hemp for green manure, pls post any info you're able to find

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Improving-So...amp;pid=1721199

Thanks Smithson

I finally found a supplier of seed. Sun Hemp is called Paw Teung (pahh teu enhg) here and it goes for 40 baht a kilo if you are buying in bulk (I bought 200 kilos). They say 3-5 kilos per rai for green manure and Chownah has said he has had success in the 8 kilo a rai amount for broadcasting and discing. It germinates extremely fast, 4-5 hours soaking in warm water for me got some of the seeds to start showing its roots. Be careful not to soak too long if you want to "pre-emerge" your seeds as any longer than that or a delay in planting could be trouble. We just planted that and Sahnoh African (sesbania rostrata 40 baht a kilo and 3-5 kilo to a rai) last thursday the 25th and I will try to inform as the results come in. We are trying a few different methods to grow these two along with another bean that I don't have the name right now that is lima bean in size. The "Sanoh" is reputed to be a difficult grower with germination up to two weeks. Below is the contact of the company.

Thai Tanaht Praset in Chai Badan formely known as Lam Narai on Highway 21 half-way between Saraburi and Petchabun they are on the right side of the road about a kilo or two from the main clock tower on the highway.

Suenee 081-8202626

Tua Plu seeds in bulk are impossible to locate still but I will continue to look. I'd love to at least get a few cans but can't find them.

036-461701

Too too long on the computer and too sick to give more now but will update

Well I been away from this electric pencil for awhile and howdy to Fruity and Jandtaa and all. I need to update this. This year looks to be a good year for our first full year of organic (two years pesticide and poison free) and it appears that our methods are going to show a significant difference in yield, appearance and quality. It should all be cut tomorrow (looking at about 100 man days for 14 rai). i'm not going to go into all the results with our green manuring but as always when beginning "mixed" would be a good description for now, but more later. It appears that I have found the king of Paw Teung seeds and hope to purchase two tons from him this year (hopefully grow all our own thereafter) and am looking at around 25 baht per kilo. Last year found the last seeds in Thailand and had to pay 40. When he is able to perform on this I will post his contacts (the 700 kilos he had for us fell through once so we wait and see and hope he has no problems with his harvest of 2000 rai, purportedly). I would like to try Jandtaa's idea of mixing (pops in law did it with the Sanoh Africa (sesbania rostrata) and Paw Teung and it wasn't a good idea as they both have different growing cycles and didn't incorporate well) and anyway he might know why I told him not to mix those two anyway.

Anyone had any luck finding suppliers of large quantity of seeds for green manuring? I would love to get some rye (cereal). So good news possibly with the price of the Paw Teung alomost cut in half if it happens and I think it will. Will update with all our results later. Fruity it appears that we may have murdered a lot of tadpoles so there will be lots of vacanies in the Froggy Hilton. I'll get you over to see it hopefully in the beginning of Dec. Going after crab in California and tuna in Mexico for now.

HELP HELP HELP I still would like to find a local source of manure (some may remember that I hauled nearly 20 tons of finely broken down cow manure from Hua Hin (660 kilometers) from one of the King's Royal Projects to incorporate into our organic farm and would like to find some kind of source near Buri Ram (yeh good luck, also if they have any gold nuggets in it I will take them at no extra charge also). It appears someone has people going thru the villages searching sources of manure so that's good and bad news. Bad for me but good for the world as it appears that "organic" is making a comeback here. Choke Dee "...I know what I'll do. Buy me a Mercury, I'm crazy 'bout a Mercury, just buy me a Mercury and move it on down the line." For Ever Fords

[canopy 1,404]

A good read all. I too am dedicating several rai to a forest of various organically grown fruit trees in the Phetchabun mountains. This year I started with small 1 gallon trees and spaced them far apart so when mature the trees can have plenty of space so right now they are sort of like needles in a haystack of weeds. Most everything is doing well save the citrus leaves are being eaten seemingly by caterpillars. The weeds in the area left unchecked grow 3 meters tall and some are thorny. Currently just scythe the weeds periodically to keep them low and away from the trees. I wish to displace the weeds with a green mulch. Does that sound like the right approach? If so, what would be a good choice? If it is something close to optimal that has any edible parts (wing beans?) that would move it to the top of the list. And where should I look to find what I need for sale?

[wigantojapan 397]

I don't know about your area or about current availability, but in Chiang Mai I got free jack-bean seeds from the 'Land Development Office' (about 10k north of the SuperHwy on the Mae Rim (107) hwy, on the west (Doi Pui) side between the hospital and the (121) ring road).

At that time they had black beans, sesbania and others too. We didn't need a 'tabien baan', only my wife's ID, filled out a form with address and amount of rai. They calculated coverage rates and based the allotment on that; we pulled around back with the pickup and they loaded us up with the appropriate number of sacks of seed. I was only seeding about 4 rai, so I don't know what their upper limit is.

The land development office also does free soil analysis. The only problem is that it takes 45 days (sent to Lampang) and is a very basic NPK report with no interpretation or recommendations. I get better, more complete, 2 week soil analysis reports from Mae Jo University soil science department for 500 baht. And they have a soil science professor available to interpret and make recommendations for amendments if needed.

But you don't need a soil analysis to 'green manure'. don

Hello d treelove

is it possible you can give me the name of the land developmet office in Thai please thank you

[Foreverford 25]

I don't know about your area or about current availability, but in Chiang Mai I got free jack-bean seeds from the 'Land Development Office' (about 10k north of the SuperHwy on the Mae Rim (107) hwy, on the west (Doi Pui) side between the hospital and the (121) ring road).

At that time they had black beans, sesbania and others too. We didn't need a 'tabien baan', only my wife's ID, filled out a form with address and amount of rai. They calculated coverage rates and based the allotment on that; we pulled around back with the pickup and they loaded us up with the appropriate number of sacks of seed. I was only seeding about 4 rai, so I don't know what their upper limit is.

The land development office also does free soil analysis. The only problem is that it takes 45 days (sent to Lampang) and is a very basic NPK report with no interpretation or recommendations. I get better, more complete, 2 week soil analysis reports from Mae Jo University soil science department for 500 baht. And they have a soil science professor available to interpret and make recommendations for amendments if needed.

But you don't need a soil analysis to 'green manure'. don

Hello d treelove

is it possible you can give me the name of the land developmet office in Thai please thank you

Hey there guy from Japan wiganto. It's your first post so try it again and re-ernter the i9nfo or question or reason that you wish to be involved in a discussion of green manures and cover crops as your post doesn't ahve any type showing what your interest is. Very dissimilar to mine which shows that i anm the worst typer in the worls and say screw spellcheck. Choke Dee and hope to hear more from you. Sun Hemp Forever on a Ford

[Khonwan 100]

I don't know about your area or about current availability, but in Chiang Mai I got free jack-bean seeds from the 'Land Development Office' (about 10k north of the SuperHwy on the Mae Rim (107) hwy, on the west (Doi Pui) side between the hospital and the (121) ring road).

At that time they had black beans, sesbania and others too. We didn't need a 'tabien baan', only my wife's ID, filled out a form with address and amount of rai. They calculated coverage rates and based the allotment on that; we pulled around back with the pickup and they loaded us up with the appropriate number of sacks of seed. I was only seeding about 4 rai, so I don't know what their upper limit is.

The land development office also does free soil analysis. The only problem is that it takes 45 days (sent to Lampang) and is a very basic NPK report with no interpretation or recommendations. I get better, more complete, 2 week soil analysis reports from Mae Jo University soil science department for 500 baht. And they have a soil science professor available to interpret and make recommendations for amendments if needed.

But you don't need a soil analysis to 'green manure'. don

Hello d treelove

is it possible you can give me the name of the land developmet office in Thai please thank you

Hi Wigantojapan. Courtesy of Google, website in Thai & English: http://www.ldd.go.th/

Rgds

Khonwan

[Foreverford 25]

I don't know about your area or about current availability, but in Chiang Mai I got free jack-bean seeds from the 'Land Development Office' (about 10k north of the SuperHwy on the Mae Rim (107) hwy, on the west (Doi Pui) side between the hospital and the (121) ring road).

At that time they had black beans, sesbania and others too. We didn't need a 'tabien baan', only my wife's ID, filled out a form with address and amount of rai. They calculated coverage rates and based the allotment on that; we pulled around back with the pickup and they loaded us up with the appropriate number of sacks of seed. I was only seeding about 4 rai, so I don't know what their upper limit is.

The land development office also does free soil analysis. The only problem is that it takes 45 days (sent to Lampang) and is a very basic NPK report with no interpretation or recommendations. I get better, more complete, 2 week soil analysis reports from Mae Jo University soil science department for 500 baht. And they have a soil science professor available to interpret and make recommendations for amendments if needed.

But you don't need a soil analysis to 'green manure'. don

Hello d treelove

is it possible you can give me the name of the land developmet office in Thai please thank you

Hi Wigantojapan. Courtesy of Google, website in Thai & English: http://www.ldd.go.th/

Rgds

Khonwan

Hey Sweet Man what a fantastic site!!! Thanks so ever much. I'm going to repost this website so it doesn't fall through the cracks what a great source. I am getting pretty slow as I completely missed What Wigantojapan was looking for. i just basically opened it up but am reaqlly looking forward to getting into it. Again thanks much. Found at the Ford Forever

[Foreverford 25]

I looked through this link and not too impressive in the English version but the Thai language site is much larger and hopefully would have a bunch more info for Thai speakers.

http://www.ldd.go.th/ Thailand Land Development Department

[Foreverford 25]

Just put in another crop of sun hemp but the big news was that the family was finally able to get free seeds from Buriram. Other provinces have been doing this for years but B stands for backwards and Buririam. Of course you couldn't go the 100 kilometers roundtrip they required you got a minimum of 7 people or they wouldn't give the seeds also had some crap about having to have land papers but that was forgotten or jive or whatever. Of course they wouldn't make it available until long after the optimum tiome to plant but what else is new. we are stockpiled for next year and hopefully will be able to get m0re. the soil has greatly imoroved with one year getting three crops in and also heard it is great for people klooking for pollinators for trees etc and have really notice plenty of flying bombadiers buzzing about doing their thing when 100's of thousaqnd of rai lie fallow all around. Fixing N in a Ford Forever