Chiang Mai Ram Hospital, Taking The Piss!

[orang37]

... snip ... complaining about it doesn't get you anywhere.

imho sharing our stories about what we've actually experienced at different Chiang Mai hospitals and clinics gets us somewhere called "informed community." i and my host farang both like that place.

regards, ~o:37;

[engineer]

CM Ram makes most it's extra money by over charging people who pay with insurance. They don't over charge a lot because they don't want to arouse suspicion. When I noticed their mistake, they gave me back a refund.

I have noticed their " mistakes " many times and pointed them out to them. Of course they then gave me a refund. How many people do not notice the " mistakes " as their insurance company is paying the bill. I have seen many of their outragious bills and when they smell insurance you get whacked with every possible charge.

I knew someone who was in a coma in their Intensive Care unit for 2 weeks. I got a radio for him a found some station playing classics. I had been told that even though people were not concious they could hear. I left him peacefully with the radio on and when I came back next day the radio was gone and in some others persons room. who was wide awake listening to thai music.

I called them on it and the insentitive cows that worked there just smiled at me so I grabbed the radio back and told them NOT to move it again.

If I had the time I could relay lots of stories about that place that would disgust many people.

[Scrubber]

Talking of scams, a friend of mine was knocked off his motorbike on the super highway near the Lanna hospital and a kind witness took him to A&E there. After looking at the x-ray of his broken collar bone, the doctor told him that he would need to insert a pin to fix the break at a cost of 20,000 baht. My friend told the doctor there was no way he could afford it as he didn't have medical insurance, so the doctor took another look at the x-ray. He then told him that he could just put his arm in a sling and left with a bill for a few hundred baht!

For most things requiring medication, I almost always go to the Pharmacy on Rajadamnern Road, just up from Black Canyon. The two women who work there are extremely helpful (and speak good English if you need it) and honest when it comes to the prices of different brands (depending on how much you want to pay and the quality of medication you want). Just bear in mind that a recent test of over-the-counter Asian manufactured drugs revealed that almost 80% of them were ineffective. Cheaper isn't always better. Yes, the Ram's drugs are very expensive, but the brand of omeprazole they sell there costs only 10% more than it does elsewhere.

[Lami]

A doctor at a Government Hospital here in Chiang Mai (as I understand it, the same hospital that people posting here are calling Suan Dok) ordered every and any (expensive) test under the sun for me. I was told the X-Ray and MRI and everything else there were far superior to any other facility in CM.

I wasn't impressed by this doctor's approach to the problem. (Even if you did buy the "necessity" of those tests, it showed a great lack of confidence -- not inspiring.)

I went elsewhere in CM, to a private doctor who agreed that such tests were unnecessary and sent me to a capable person in Bangkok.

Be careful wherever you go.

[Mapguy]

Wow! There are some very interesting comments on this thread. I don't personally agree with all of it, but all these experiences should be shared in some sort of useful way since it is about important stuff.

Anyway, I started up a thread on Chiang Mai Ram as well as on Suan Doc (Mararaj, Special Medical Services Clinic, et al) quite a while ago, and I think that all that has been posted here should be added to it (them) --- if a sensible mod can do that. PLEASE!!!. For the lame and lazy, before posting, try a word or term search!

There are, after all, a number of people who are indeed very interested in things beyond the "Hamburger of the Month," traditionally much of the normal fodder on TV Chiang Mai. So, I hope the usual quipsters will lay off and someone who can actually do something will be responsible enough to try (Bless them!) to do something constructive to organize a quite important collection of individual personal experiences. Then, we common folk can judge for ourselves.

Otherwise, I have personally been to all three hospitals referred to in this thread, and I am familiar with the dental clinics referred to. Otherwise, no comment at this point other than to say that each has done the necessary is not necessary!

Sorry to sound like "Old Lady School Teacher!" Those of you who wish to look up my bloomers may do so by personal message, but please don't clutter up this space with silliness!

To save you some time, I do suggest that (1) you will tend to find better services at increased cost in large metro areas (e.g., Bumrungrad in Bangkok); (2) there are excellent medical services here in Chiang Mai. My advice is shop around for physicians and sureons, not hospitals; there are good docs all over town; (3) if you like convenience and don't have the sense to bring a magazine to read while you wait, go to Ram. If you do commonly pack reading material, you pay for convenience, but then you might not be able to finish reading the article in your magazine!

.............. I give up! What happened to common sense about something as serious as good health!!!!!!!!!!! For one thing, those who are smart enough to use this venue should be smart enough to reserach on the web the itch that they scratch!

Edited April 15, 2009 by Mapguy

[el jefe]

Talking of scams, a friend of mine was knocked off his motorbike on the super highway near the Lanna hospital and a kind witness took him to A&E there. After looking at the x-ray of his broken collar bone, the doctor told him that he would need to insert a pin to fix the break at a cost of 20,000 baht. My friend told the doctor there was no way he could afford it as he didn't have medical insurance, so the doctor took another look at the x-ray. He then told him that he could just put his arm in a sling and left with a bill for a few hundred baht!

There's a big difference between a "scam" and poor communication. Many simple collarbone fractures will heal by themselves. Severe breaks must have surgery. Anything in between that is often left to the patient. After surgery and pins, you can usually be back to normal activity within a week. letting it heal on its own means using a sling for 6+ weeks. So your friend saved ~19,500 baht but was inconvenienced by delaying the recovery period by over a month. That should have been explained better.

The miscommunication could have been between your friend and the doctor, your friend and you, or you and TV. But I don't see a scam involved.

[Gonzo the Face]

Got a question for a Mod.....

I note that the thread discussion of a law firm in CM was closed due to forum rules re the posibility o legal action , or some such

The question is why is it ok to piss on a hosp in this thread but not a law office.

I have no interest in either one but would like to know the rule interpretion.

[slapout]

Good question, I am not questioning the Mod decision but the difference in a law firm and a hospital in the afoementioned case.

[bojo]

Hi All,

Have heard so many stories of late about Ram Hospital a. Overcharging and b. Poor treatment that I thought this would be a good topic to discuss and share experiences and hopefully get good advice where to go as an alternative.

First, the latest anecdote, from today, one of many similar stories. A good friend of mine had a tickly throat/ possible tonsil situation, went down to get it checked as a precaution. Five minutes with the Doc, no serious problem, just some antibiotics needed. They go to paypoint. The bill? 1300 Baht!! 100 for Nurse, 300 for Doctor, but get this, 900, yes 900 for a one week course of antibiotics. They paid the Nurse/ Doctor fee, but refused to take the antibiotics, then guess what? Bought the same antibiotics over the counter at a nearby Pharmacy for 300!!!!!

Ram Hospital really do take the piss these days, and I for one will not use them again, despite it being the only place I ve used in my 5 years in Chiang Mai, and despite the fact that I have a BUPA policy.

Anybody elses experiences appreciated, and general advice of places to go where English is spoken reasonably well. The small clinic on Loi Kroh has been strongly recommended for smaller walk in stuff....but other thoughts/ advice welcome.

By the way, as far as Dentists are concerned, Grace is a disgrace!! Nice surgery etc, but ludicrous prices for simple things. I now use Dentalland just off Nimmenhamin, excellent service and half the price.

I've always used Rajavej, they've a great kids doctor there also, prices are very reasonable,friendly service and diagnosis has always been correct. Medecine reasonable cost and as an example, my wife and I both had tetanus shots a month ago which included seeing the doctor and having blood pressure checked first. Total cost for the 2 of us 340b. Beat that!

regards Bojo

[fruittbatt]

Today I dragged myself out to Chiang Mai Sham Hospital to notify them that I had contracted dengue fever here in Chiang Mai. As soon as the desk staff discovered I had already been diagnosed, tested, and medicated by a (competent, English-speaking, thorough, and cheap) clinic in Malaysia, they fell into a group quandary as to what to do next.

The sole English-speaker informed me that I would have to go to the Public Health Department myself on Monday. I advised him that I had already done my job by reporting the case to him, and that it was now the hospital's job to photocopy the lab report and to notify Public Health. After a further conference he photocopied the document. I wonder whether the case will in fact be reported?

Another amusing CM Sham hospital story happened last year when my husband decided to purchase one of their "full health check packages" . He was told that he was overweight, which was odd as he had actually lost weight through gym work. As I read the report I noticed that his height had been incorrectly recorded as 165 cms instead of 191cm, so that his weight of 95 kgs seemed excessive. By then, of course, he had already paid the bill, but they DID note their error...verbally.

Edited April 18, 2009 by fruittbatt

[richard10365]

I see the comments on the people saying we should lay off the hospital or should shop around for a better hospital.

During an emergency, you don't have time to shop around. If an ambulance delivers you to the hospital, what choice do you have? When I was involved in a motorcycle accident with a Thai woman as my passenger, she was taken to a government hospital and I was taken to CM Ram.

I did get good care and the bill was probably more expensive than other places however, that does not give the finance department of that hospital the right to over charge my insurance.

This is a real experience that happened to me. I don't see anything wrong with talking about it here. We complain about many things on Thai Visa. Favorite hospitals should not be off limits if they are doing things we think are wrong.

I think over charging for personal profit is wrong. There are too many people who say they have been over charged by CM Ram to ignore this problem. When I say over charge, it means you convince the hospital to give you money back after you have paid your bill.

After being a patient at CM Ram, check your bill. Check the percentage of the bill your insurance says they will pay. If it is 100% then you probably don't have a problem. The scam occurs when the payment is split between the patient and the insurance company. CM Ram will charge one or the other a higher percentage than it is suppose to do. This is not easy to catch if you don't sit down and compare and contrast who is responsible for paying what.

With a high percentage of farangs using CM Ram, this probably happens quite often and is very profitable for the people involved with the scam.

[iang]

I have had occasion to use the services of Chiang Mai Ram a couple of times over the years and have nothing but praise for the hospital & quality of their services. Yes, no doubt there is much cheaper medical care about the place, but personally, I'm not looking for cheap medical care, but quality & professional medical care & Chiang Mai Ram has provided both.

On the subject of their charges for medication, I once queried the higher than normal cost for some antibiotics & found that what I was being prescribed with was a quality imported European (specialist) product & not the locally produced equivalent. You'll find the same at any local pharmacy too - buy the 'original' branded & imported medication and you'll pay several times the price of the generic locally manufactured equivalent.

[Igor]

Hey, go price an aspirin in a US hospital!

Hospital charges are always going to be higher than a small clinic. Why? They have to pay for a hospital !

The solution? Don't go to a hospital if all you need is a clinic.

[sleepyjohn]

It's true the medicines are dear, but would you prefer the consultation/room fees go up and the drugs go down, or like now that you can go and buy your own drugs outside and save both ways if you wish to?

Hey, go price an aspirin in a US hospital!

Hospital charges are always going to be higher than a small clinic. Why? They have to pay for a hospital !

The solution? Don't go to a hospital if all you need is a clinic.

I'm with you Igor. Imagine getting a private room with 24 hour nursing for 2000 baht!

I think over charging for personal profit is wrong.

Perhaps you don't realise the RAM is part of a publicly traded company which makes quite ordinary profits.

BTW my girlfriend works there and has to buy a specified set of tailor made uniforms herself at regular intervals so you're certainly not subsidising her.

John

Edited April 19, 2009 by sleepyjohn

[tigerbeer]

Chiang Mai Ram should not be selling their drugs at such escalated rates. Period!

[richard10365]

It's true the medicines are dear, but would you prefer the consultation/room fees go up and the drugs go down, or like now that you can go and buy your own drugs outside and save both ways if you wish to?

Hey, go price an aspirin in a US hospital!

Hospital charges are always going to be higher than a small clinic. Why? They have to pay for a hospital !

The solution? Don't go to a hospital if all you need is a clinic.

I'm with you Igor. Imagine getting a private room with 24 hour nursing for 2000 baht!

I think over charging for personal profit is wrong.

Perhaps you don't realise the RAM is part of a publicly traded company which makes quite ordinary profits.

BTW my girlfriend works there and has to buy a specified set of tailor made uniforms herself at regular intervals so you're certainly not subsidising her.

John

What does CM Ram being a publicly traded company have to do with what I said? Why does that make it right to over charge. I'm sure there are lots of companies that think they should make more money. But they don't try to sneak in extra charges disguised as a normal expense. What we are talking about is out right stealing.

We are not talking about overcharging for medicine in the pharmacy. We are talking about manipulating the numbers on an insurance claim to make the patient pay more than he is suppose to pay. When they are caught, they act like it was a simple mistake and refund the money. I hope that clears things up for you.

I'm sure this little crime ring cannot pay everyone who works in CM Ram and your girlfriend is probably not in the loop.

[gatorhead333]

SUAN DORK HOSPITAL LEAVE TO THE POOR THAIS WITH THE FREE HEALTH CARDS... IT IS THIRD WORLD SITTING IN THERE and THE PRIVATE PART SRI PUD IS AS EXPENSIVE AS RAM AND STILL THIRD WORLD FILTHY WITH their FAIR SHARE OF OVER WORKED POMPOUS DOCTORS THAT ARE SO BUSY THEY CAN NOT THINK STRIAGHT..... I GUESS THIS IS THEIR EXCUSE,, BUT OF COURSE NOT ALL OF THEM .... LIKE ANYWHERE AND EVERYTHING U MUSTS SIFT THRU THE BAD TO FIND THE GOOD..BUT THEY ARE THROWING OUT ANTIBIOTICS WITH OUT DOING CULTURES... AT LEAST AT RAM WHEN YOU TELL THEM TO CULTURE THEY WILL DO THIS.. GOOD LUCK AT THE LOY CROW QUACK CLINIC HE WILL JUSTS FAKE IT OR TRY TO FAKE YOU OUT... SUAN DORK WILL TELL YOU THAT THEY DO NOT TREAT THIS WAY.... THAT IS WHAT I WAS TOLD A FEW MONTHS AGO WHEN I THOUGHT I WOULD TRY THAT PLACE ONCE MORE... WHAT A JOKE THAT PLACE IS.... NO THEY JUSTS TAKE A GUESS AND THROW ANTIBIOTICS AT YOU... THEY GET LAZY SINCE THEY HAVE 10,000 PEOPLE TO SEE A DAY.. GOOD LUCK THERE...NEVER, EVERY AGAIN FOR ME .. AT LEAST NOT IF I AM CONCIOUS ... I GAVE IT TWO WACKS NEVER A THIRD... LEAVE IT TO THE BACK PACKERS WANTING TO TRY TO SAVE A DIME AND TO 50,000,000 THAI PEOPLE THAT HAVE THERE FREE HEALTH CARE CARDS.....

OF COURSE ANTIBIOTICS COST MORE AT HOSPITALS BUT NOBODY FORCES YOU TO BUY THEM THERE BUT JUSTS MAKE SURE U GET REAL ONES and not expired ones AT PHAMACIES. I JUSTS HAD CBC ,LIPID PANEL,LIVER FUNCTION PANEL TODAY AT RAM IN AND OUT IN 15 MINUTES.2200 BAHT ...$67.00 IS THAT A TON OF CASH FOR THAT???

TIME IS MONEY AND CLEAN HOSPITAL WITHOUT 200 PEOPLE SITTING ON LITTLE CHAIRS BREATHING IN AIR AND COUGHING THE AIR BACK INTO YOUR FACE FOR ME IS WORTH MONEY... BUT CRYING ABOUT 300 BAHT (9 DOLLARS) SPENT AT HOSPITAL WITH GOOD AIR CON ... PLEASE... IS THIS A JOKE????

Edited April 19, 2009 by gatorhead333

[mnbcm]

Just bear in mind that a recent test of over-the-counter Asian manufactured drugs revealed that almost 80% of them were ineffective.

Do you have a source on that? I'm curious to read. Thanks!

[mnbcm]

Thanks for all the posts. It's nice to have a bunch of opinions to help newbies to the area make decisions.

My wife visited the OBGYN at Ram for the uncomfortable checkup and said she was really happy with how the nurses and doctor treated her. I've been to Ram to check on some severe flu symptoms and had a fine experience; minus the vomiting. The prices didn't seem outrageous to me but I'm paying out of pocket so the "insurance scam" being talked about doesn't apply. I wasn't real impressed with how friendly everyone was compared to a few other hospitals I've been to in Bangkok and Phuket, but I'll keep going back.

[bloody tiger]

Hi, I have to agree with the majority of posts here in that the RAM is a bit overpriced and also I found that some of the diagnosis was not so good. I maybe had used this hospital about 3 or 4 times up until about 3 years ago. Ironically, I now use another from their group of hospitals, the Thepanya at the superhighway/MaeJo intersection. This was previously the Chiang Mai Ram 2. This is what my family and I would summarize as good points of the Thepanya:

good clean hospital (although somewhat older building)

excellent nursing staff, friendly and attentive

For hospital stays, good pricing for private room (approx 800B from memory)

Medication not overly priced (although not as quite cheap as going to a pharmacy yourself)

Excellent doctors and consulting specialists are the same ones that are at other hospitals

Never overly long waits, the longest around an hour or so

The ENT specialist there is very good. I had an ongoing ear problem for about 3 years and had previosly consulted a British and an Australian specialist as well as Thai specialists at RAM, McCormick and in BKK(can't remember where).....without going into the specifics of the problem, the ENT at Thepanya came up with the correct diagnosis and i haven't had any probs for over 2 years now.

I also had to have an operation on a nerve vein, the consulting specialist/surgeon had servd time in Australia/US and currently lectures at CM uni. Thepanya quoted me that the operation and hospitalization would be around 35-40KBaht. this seemed reasonable and it needed to be done. I was pleasantly surprised after the succesful operation when receiving the bill as it was 27K Baht! Admittedly, follow up appointments/consultations are 1200 Baht a pop....but he is a top neurosurgeon and I think that is reasonable.

With my children, I have also experienced on 2 or 3 occasions, where the doctor actually said "no fee today". These were some follow up check-ups where it was basically in and out with no further medication.

So the Thepanya would definately be my recomendation for a Chiang Mai hospital.

I would also agree with other posters regarding using a clinic for basic ailments.

[bloody tiger]

My g/f says the ob/gyn doctors there are the best

I am always amused on TV(across all forum subjects) when someone posts "My wife says....." or "My gf reckons....." without actually saying what it is that their wife/gf/partner etc does that would actually quantify their expertise being added to the subject. I feel that some people must think they are unique in having a Thai wife/gf/etc......well HELLO, this is THAIVISA and just about everyone has a connection with a Thai......

PS. elektrified, I wasn't having a go at you, just making an obsevation in general

[Loaded]

My g/f says the ob/gyn doctors there are the best

I am always amused on TV(across all forum subjects) when someone posts "My wife says....." or "My gf reckons....." without actually saying what it is that their wife/gf/partner etc does that would actually quantify their expertise being added to the subject. I feel that some people must think they are unique in having a Thai wife/gf/etc......well HELLO, this is THAIVISA and just about everyone has a connection with a Thai......

PS. elektrified, I wasn't having a go at you, just making an obsevation in general

I think if you don't have a gf/wife, you probably won't receive any feedback about an og/gyn doctor. I know a Thai lady in our office but she's not going to tell me about her visit to the ob/gyn doctor, is she?

[amexpat]

ENT at Thepanya came up with the correct diagnosis and i haven't had any probs for over 2 years now.

I also had to have an operation on a nerve vein, the consulting specialist/surgeon had servd time in Australia/US

I certainly hope you mean he had practiced medicine in Australia/US.

Seriously, I agree. I had a good experience at Thepanya.

[mrmillersr]

If you don't have a problem when entering Chiang Mai Ram they will certainly find one for you and charge you up the yahoo for it.

Knew one bloke whose wife went in for a checkup and they told her she had cancer and needed to start immediate treatments. She went to a government hospital and they found nothing wrong with her at all. That was 3 years ago.

Another guy had a long night of drinking, woke up with a pain in his side. Went to CM RAM and they told him he needed to have his gall bladder removed. Idiot listened to them, got an overpriced operation only to be told there was nothing wrong with his gall bladder but best he have it out anyway or it might be a problem later.

Then there was another fellow who took his wife in because of back pains she was having. First doctor wanted to prescribe some medication that had already been taken off the market in the US by the FDA. He then saw another quack who wanted to keep his wife overnight and then do some exploratory surgery the next morning, which they immediately declined.

There should be a large warning sign outside the hospital saying "Beware! Entering these premises could be hazardous to your health" as I am sure many have already found out, but a little bit too late.

[eek]

If you don't have a problem when entering Chiang Mai Ram they will certainly find one for you and charge you up the yahoo for it.

Knew one bloke whose wife went in for a checkup and they told her she had cancer and needed to start immediate treatments. She went to a government hospital and they found nothing wrong with her at all. That was 3 years ago.

Another guy had a long night of drinking, woke up with a pain in his side. Went to CM RAM and they told him he needed to have his gall bladder removed. Idiot listened to them, got an overpriced operation only to be told there was nothing wrong with his gall bladder but best he have it out anyway or it might be a problem later.

Then there was another fellow who took his wife in because of back pains she was having. First doctor wanted to prescribe some medication that had already been taken off the market in the US by the FDA. He then saw another quack who wanted to keep his wife overnight and then do some exploratory surgery the next morning, which they immediately declined.

There should be a large warning sign outside the hospital saying "Beware! Entering these premises could be hazardous to your health" as I am sure many have already found out, but a little bit too late.

That is appalling!!! And, i completely believe you, because you reminded me that when I was having problems with my health a couple of years ago (same problem I posted links to earlier), a side effect of my condition was a neck goiter (a common side effect to my problem..which was already documented in my health files). The Doctor actually said to me "I dont want to scare you too much, but you need tests right away, as it might be Cancer". I was totally shocked and scared. I honestly cant believe she said the C word, without first doing the checks. Frightening a patient into taking different tests is despicable behaviour in my opinion. She could have just told me the tests she wanted me to take and stressed the importance of them. But, what makes me upset about that, is that my goiter was a common side effect. Instead of her telling me that, she dove straight into saying it may be cancer.

Anyway...up to others where they decide to go for health care. I've heard good things about the Dermatologist there, so if i need anything in that department, ill go to Ram. But otherwise, i prefer suan dok. Its all about the Doctor anyway, not the hospital, but I had expected better from our local "high end" hospital.

[PeaceBlondie]

Sripat SMSC is almost a separate hospital from Suan Doc or Maharaj. The fee to see university professors - less than half what you pay at Ram I. Very short waits

[Mapguy]

Basically, I agree with Peace Blondie. The pricing structures might not be that easy to compare, but the Sriphat and general government hospital sides of that hospital are very different in some, not all, respects.

Otherwise, I have been reading some (not all) posts that indicate to me that some people don't really understand how to go about medical care. To lead this post off, I wish to say that all of us (Khon Chiang Mai) are very privileged with very, very good medical care, not just at Ram or at Maharaj, but at the other hospitals mentioned occasionally.

Generally, yes, if you want coddled care (Hardly any waiting and so on!) then go to Ram. If you don't mind some waiting some times and a crowd in the evening clinics, then go to Sriphat or to the government side of Mararaj where there are indeed generally a much greater number of patients. [Farang don't generally belong at the latter, but will never be refused excellent emergency treatment.)

I do not have a "30 bhat card, so I do not qualify for the government treatment, so I go to SMSC (Sriphat most often. I have never had to wait longer than 20 minutes there at the SMSC at any time over a number of visits --- and I do not get special treatment. I get a number just like everyone else. At either SMSC or Ram, for pete's sake, make an appointment anyway! The general support facilities (xray, labs, etc.) are the same at Maharaj for the government and the Sriphat sides.

For emergency care, I would go to either hospital, Ram or Maharaj. If you have a heart problem, it is a matter of time en route to care, not the hospital which is key. For traumatic injury, I suggest Maharaj first simply for the fact that they have much more experience with people with such injuries being carted in from the highway! Then, once stabilized, you can go from there to any hospital you wish!

Back to Ram, Point 1: There is a lot of bashing of Ram on this thread; too much in my view and from my experience. There are good and not-so-good docs in all hospitals. No one says you can't get a second opinion, in any case, which, really, is unbelievably easy to do in this town. The end point is that a lot of the docs practice in (at least) both hospitals. I have previously posted on pertinent threads why that is so, but never mind! Anyway, there are good docs around to check out for second opinions!

Back to Ram, Point 2: there are some things that I would not suggest going to Ram for. One is general physicals; the other is that some docs are not that good even though some are superb! The docs on the 4th floor are not up to it in my opinion, but if you start with a cardiologist/internist at Ram downstairs, you will have a much more considered approach to general health. Leave the 4th floor to signing off on a driver's license physical. Otherwise, it is a matter of some docs are better than other docs. Some at Ram are top notch, in my view. A few are hacks. Problem? Go get a second opinion! Hello!!! That is so easy in Chiang Mai! Try that in your favorite farang homeland! What you can do here in a couple of days would take a couple of weeks or months elsewhere!

Back to Ram, Point 3: Pricing. What the hel_l! You pay for the air con and a little TLC! You don't have to buy drugs there! In my personal experience, shopping around Chiang Mai, I have found that sometimes Ram is even cheaper! Not a lot cheaper, but cheaper! You generally pay for convenience! It is up to you!

Mistakes on billing? Yes, there are mistakes on billing, but to call Chiang Mai Ram a "bunch of crooks," or words to that effect, is too much for me! So, hello!, look at your bill. If you have a question, ask!

Obviously, be informed yourself. There is this thing called the internet with access to all sorts of information, much of it very useful. That will help you ask informed questions in an ongoing health situation.

Otherwise, if you like to ride motorbikes or motorcycles at any time or like to hang out at places like Spicey's and such places late at night, you are on your own, dudes and duchesses! Good luck!

Edited April 20, 2009 by Mapguy

[Lami]

Excellent points, Mapguy.

One point I would add is that we may be unused to the "large hospital" system here, through which we foreigners are allocated somewhat randomly to specialists (rather than referred by a trusted general physician).

I have experienced both good and somewhat indifferent practice at Ram but personally, nothing bad (other than the medicine costs). I know of people who have been very pleased with diagnosis and surgery there. I would agree that there seems to be something of an over-reaction in the "tales of Ram" here.

And I must say that I cannot understand, given the cost of labour here, why any hospital should be dirty, as some plainly are. At least Ram is a little cleaner, and some indication of an awareness of the importance of hygiene in a hospital is ... reassuring .

As Mapguy says, we can now educate ourselves more easily than in the past and we usually have the option of seeking a second opinion.

P.S. A very intelligent and well balanced friend back home was suffering some bleeding and other symptoms. After viewing an X-ray, the much-trusted long time family doctor advised of the possibility of cancer and the advisabilty of running tests. The family experienced something of a "scare". A few days later the doctor called to inform them that he'd misinterpreted the X-ray. Normal life resumed. The doctor had acted out of concern. While concern may not always be the motivation here or elsewhere, medical staff are human, for better and for worse. They get tired, they worry about missing important symptoms and in Thailand, some foreigners make them anxious .

Edited April 21, 2009 by Lami

[popmybubble]

Where would anyone recommend to get STI/STD testing done? I heard that some places can give you the results same day?

[chirunr]

Here is my story:

On 10 December 2006, I went to Chiangmai Ram Hospital, telling the receptionist that I wished to see a medical doctor because I had symptoms of syphilis. She referred me to the Department of Medicine clinic, where I was directed to see Dr. Taratorn Thamprasit. I showed Dr. Taratorn a lesion on my penis, and told him that I was recently exposed sexually to a person who I believed to be infected with syphilis. Dr. Taratorn asked me if the lesion was painful when I urinated; I said that it was not. Then he sent me for an Anti-HIV and VDRL test, the results of which were negative. Dr. Taratorn assured me, based upon the painless nature of the lesion and the negative test results, that I was not infected with syphilis. He identified the lesion as an "abrasion wound", and prescribed a topical antibiotic ointment. I told him, being over 75 years of age, that I was unable to do anything with my penis to cause an abrasion wound. But he was adamant, told me just to put on the ointment, and sent me away.

After leaving the hospital, I did a little research on the NIH and WHO websites, and learned that syphilis lesions are rarely painful; that neither the anti-HIV or the VDRL test is useful for detection of early primary syphilis; that a test of the exudate from the lesion is the only definitive test; and that a patient with symptoms of syphilis should be presumed to be infected and should be treated accordingly.

Even though I doubted the accuracy of the diagnosis of Dr. Taratorn, I applied the ointment for 2 days. The lesion did not improve. I returned to Chiangmai Ram Hospital on 13 December 2006, asking to see a different physician -- one experienced in diseases of the skin. I was referred to Dr. Sathorn Chiewpanich, who I told of my exposure to a suspected infected person . He looked at the lesion, told me that he thought the diagnosis of Dr. Taratorn was correct: that it was merely an "abrasion wound". He told me to continue using the ointment, and to take one 500 mg tablet of Ciprofloxicin to speed up the healing of the wound. Dr. Taratorn asked me to return to see him on 21 December 2006.

I returned to Dr. Taratorn on 21 December 2006, this time bringing a letter from Suan Dock Hospital stating that the person to whom I was exposed was, in fact, infected with syphilis . The lesion was still there. Dr. Taratorn agreed that perhaps I was infected with syphilis; but he said that Chiangmai Ram Hospital did not keep in stock Benzathine Penicillin G, the medicine of choice of both NIH and WHO for treatment of primary syphilis. He suggested that I go to see yet another physician at Chiang Mai Ram.

After having already been sent twice out into the streets by physicians at Chiang Mai Ram, while infected with a deadly and highly transmissible disease, I decided that I had better go elsewhere for treatment. So I declined Dr Taratorn's suggestion for a further run-around at Chiang Mai Ram.

Thereupon, I went directly to Suan Dock (Mararaj) Hospital, where the physician to whom I was referred instantly recognized the lesion on my penis as the symptom of primary syphilis. He immediately ordered treatment with an injection of Benzathine Penicillin G, which of course, cured the infection within a few days.

Subsequently, I wrote a letter to the Managing Director (Dr. Varaphan Unachak), the General Director (Dr. Kitti Radilokpanich), and the Medical Director (Dr. Thawatchai Tansathit) of Chiang Mai Ram, advising them that I believed that the diagnosis and treatment that I received at the Hospital was grossly incompetent, and that it utterly failed to live up to their claims of excellence: "state-of-the-art facilities", "attentive care", "well-trained specialists", "safe professional service", "world-class quality", "promoting their duties ethically and professionally", and the various other boasts of this hospital.

Further, I complained to them that I considered it inexcusable that two of their physicians completely mis-diagnosed a dangerous infectious disease, and then to be unable to treat the disease because a common anti-bacterial agent is not regularly stocked by the Hospital; and for sending a sick and infectuous patient away with assurances that he is well.

The only response to my complaint was a letter from Dr. Varaphan Unachak, the Chief Executive Officer of the Hospital, in which defended the diagnoses of his physicians. He concluded "We apologise for your inconvenience in this matter."

I note that the two physicians who treated me are still on the staff of the hospital, still dispensing their versions of "World-Class Quality".

I will leave it up to you to decide if this was a case of gross medical malpractice, or not.