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The latest edition of 'Prem Quarterly', volume 2 issue 4 available on-line at the PTIS web-site,

Please let us know how to find the above. I go to their website, find publications, find the Prem Quarterly but no volume 2 issue 4 on the website list.

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The latest edition of 'Prem Quarterly', volume 2 issue 4 available on-line at the PTIS web-site,

Please let us know how to find the above. I go to their website, find publications, find the Prem Quarterly but no volume 2 issue 4 on the website list.

Certainly. In the Publications, the top issue of Prem Qarterly which, when you open it, is shown as volume 2 issue 4, for June-August 2010.

The comment I quoted is in the "Class of 2010" article.

Edited by Ricardo
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Yes, but schools normally have weeks/months of holiday and why not rescedule holiday to coincide with burning season. Only short term solution for the problem.

By the way, does the school do blood testing for drugs?

Good thinking Loom. The PSA did once raise the possibility with school-management, of a longer Easter-holiday, to reduce time spent in-the-smoke.

I've never heard of blood-testing for drugs at Prem, is this a common-practice, at other international-schools in Chiang Mai ? I did hear once of a newly-arrived student, who was found to be retailing 'wacky-baccy' to classmates, he was expelled immediately & the other participants were awarded 'a short holiday', I believe.

Strange how real-life reflects ThaiVisa ! :D

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The latest edition of 'Prem Quarterly', volume 2 issue 4 available on-line at the PTIS web-site,

Please let us know how to find the above. I go to their website, find publications, find the Prem Quarterly but no volume 2 issue 4 on the website list.

Certainly. In the Publications, the top issue of Prem Qarterly which, when you open it, is shown as volume 2 issue 4, for June-August 2010.

The comment I quoted is in the "Class of 2010" article.

Oh, that is interesting, I click on Volume 4, Issue 4 and I get volume 2 issue 4. Nice and clear, I hope the teachers instructions to students are better.

I look in the Table of Contents and do not find "Class of 2010" article listed. So I looked through and found the information anyway. Interesting to note that it describes schools that students were accepted at and not schools that they are attending. Also have to wonder if those acceptances were unconditional since the article was published in May or early June and the article by David Baird in the issue states that IB Exam results will not be available until July. So the real acceptance data is probably not available until the exam results are given unless the acceptances were all unconditional, right?

Baird's article is interesting as it speaks about the important attributes the school is trying to instill in students and asks questions about that but provides no answers. For example his questions include:

"How does one measure these important attributes? How does any school determine how well it has instilled compassionor a truly global outlook?"

Since he does not provide answers to these questions and might even be implying that they can not be answered but states that these are more important than IB Exam scores, is he saying that the more important things that the school is trying to teach are not measurable by the school? If so, how much useful good for students are the goals if you can not measure the level of achievement of those goals? Like we have some great goals but have no idea of to what degree we are achieving those goals after having them for 10 years. What am I missing here?

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One thing worth pointing out is that Prem is the only school around Chiang Mai where the students get an International Baccalaureate. This is a great help if you aspire to further studies at university abroad.

/ Priceless

I believe that APIS (American_Pacific) also offer the IB.Not sure how good the school is though.

There is a current debate about the usefulness of the IB V. (The British) A level system. What kind of education do you want for your children? will you be moving to other countries before your childre complete their studies?

You could also consider some of the Bi-lingual schools too . For example Wichai Wittaya (a Thai, Turkish foundation) Check out the posts in the education forum here as I found these very useful.

Good luck you have a major decisions ahead of you.

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One thing worth pointing out is that Prem is the only school around Chiang Mai where the students get an International Baccalaureate. This is a great help if you aspire to further studies at university abroad.

/ Priceless

I believe that APIS (American_Pacific) also offer the IB.Not sure how good the school is though.

There is a current debate about the usefulness of the IB V. (The British) A level system. What kind of education do you want for your children? will you be moving to other countries before your childre complete their studies?

You could also consider some of the Bi-lingual schools too . For example Wichai Wittaya (a Thai, Turkish foundation) Check out the posts in the education forum here as I found these very useful.

Good luck you have a major decisions ahead of you.

Since you chose to reply to my post from May of last year:

According to the IB website ( http://www.ibo.org/school/search/index.cfm?programmes=DIPLOMA&ib_region=IBAP&country3=TH&region2=&boarding_facilities=&state_private=&student_gender=&language_of_instruction=&find_schools=Find ) PTIS is the only school in Chiang Mai that offers an IB programme. It is also, according to the same source, one of only four schools in Thailand that offer the complete programme, i.e. primary years + middle years + diploma.

The British A-level system is undoubtedly useful in Britain, just like an American high school diploma is useful in the US. It is however my impression that the IB is the qualification recognised in the greatest number of countries around the world (including US and UK). Whether this is of value and worth considering is of course up to the individual student and family to decide.

/ Priceless

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I have been very impressed by Varee and all the students I have met from there. The two children aged 10 and 12 next door speak ecellent English, seem well educated and are 100% Thai and learnt all their English at Varee.

It is also pretty much in Chiang Mai with excellent travel access.

Would Varee not be worth considering?

Iain

Yes, if you are happy with a bilingual curriculum which will be weak either in English or in Thai. Bilingual schools produce "hybrids" weak in the literature and language of one language or the other.

As well, yes, Varee does have some caring (and many, many uncertified farang teachers and a lovely physical plant), but the classes are very large and there are limited resources for children with special needs.

Bilingual schools are a "new" concept in town which probably won't be as successful educationally as one would wish.

In the end,it makes a huge difference what is done in the home regardless of the school!!

I realise that tis was posted over a year ago, but have noted Mapguy's dissing of bilingual education generally, and Varee particularly, on a number of threads. The claim that bilingual schools produce hybrids weak in one or other language is simply not supported by the peer-reviewed research reported in the relevant academic literature; indeed, there is much evidence that a bilingual education is beneficial to both languages and content subjects (don't take my word for it, check out Do Coyle or John Marsh for example. Of course that has to be a GOOD bilingual education.

As for teachers accredited in their own countries, you will only find anything close to 100% of these in the international schools: that is what you pay for! Varee probably has more than most bilingual/English Program schools such as Montfort, Wichai Wittayalai etc,, but you don't get many full QTS teachers working for B30,000 a month, which is what most of these schools pay. International schools pay double or more, and so their fees are double or more. Varee ESL programme is around B40K/year, EP around B90K/year, Prem is ...???

In the case of paper qualifications, you get what you pay for. In terms of quality education, not necessarily. Some of the worst teachers I have seen over here are highly experienced qualified teachers back in the States, but incapable of teaching kids in a second language - not a problem if you are American expats, but if you are looking for a good education for your look kreung or are not an English first language family, something to be very aware of.

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Hello All,

Since I have recently been quoted, which is always flattering (?!) by someone who has apparently been reading back threads pretty thoroughly, I thought I'd pipe up again with some miscellaneous comments on the twists, turns, occasional pecularities of various posts of this thread. My comments are really miscellaneous, and I apologize in advance for being a bit pumped up by some of the crap posts, not all posts that I have been reading. I also apologize here for the rambling nature of this post and lack of proof-reading. If you don't wish to accord me some slack, then zing away! And that invitation applies to all posters heretofore, even the anal-oriented, one of whom I have singled out below! How's that for a pop in the snout, or wherever!

Still interested? Read on.

Prem? PTIS? Three-What Generation School??!!! Say What?

Check the web site, and not just the home page: http://www.premcenter.org/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=295. The school is Prem! People know the school as Prem, mainly because it has, over about ten years, successfully established itself as a very decent international school ! What's all this "rebranding" bs because of the General Prem's affiliations? Lighten up! There is a reason the school is named after General Prem, and it was a personal --- not altogether business --- choice of the school's founder. If you think it was pure business, you don't know much about the founder. You can find out more by doing some relatively decent Google searching, even simply on the school's web site. [The same could probably be said of the founder of Varee School, but that's an entirely different story.] Now, because the political landscape in Thailand has become increasingly fraught, there has been a change. The school's name, and the "educational community" have been re-branded. Whatever! The school is a good school. That said....

Schools and Business

Yes, Prem is still a business. It is supposed to show a profit. Actually, any school, government or not, is a business. Everyone has a budget! Prem, to my knowledge, has never shown a profit for various reasons. Is it a real estate venture? Yes, it is, but not primarily and entirely. If you bother to check this out on the school's web site or otherwise, you'll find that, or to understand the founder's dismal luck or decisions economically, you'll understand matters there better. He has only been partially successful in his business career.

Many schools (other then government schools) are private business ventures. I have been called to account recently for "dissing" bilingual schools. Sorry, I stand by my opinion: I believe such schools to be more a business model than an educational model. I believe both to be unsuccessful for different reasons. I don't care at all about the business side, really, but I do care about the educational side. On other threads about schools, I have detailed why. I will allude to some of the reasons below. For details, for what they are worth, look them up. There are several threads of discussion more broadly titled than "Prem."

Parents

To repeat what I have posted many, many times before: what is most important is the educational level of the parents (not the income level, which is also understandably correlated), not the schools, Maybe some posters might stop jacking off blaming schools for their children's problems. There are various easily identifiable contributions that parents can make, such as, simply, reading to children. Here, that challengingly means all (usually two) primary languages spoken at home. This seems chaotic at first, but it establishes the foundation for remarkable language development. Too hard? Better check out your priorities! [Parenthetically, I have done research in socialization, and in doing so discovered most (not all) research done by educational Ed.D types truly sucked!] Anyway, one man to value is Bloom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Bloom. He is an educator who kept on learning as he grew older. As he grew to a wiser old age, one of his strongest opinions was that early education is the most critical stage in development, and that it is basically up to the parents, not the schools. To gauge what I have read on this and other similar Thai Visa threads, most posters are ready to lay it all on the schools! Sorry, I think that is bs --- and shifting responsibility does not just apply to early childhood education. Schooling goes on; and the nurturing responsibility does not get easier! Don't just lay an educational problem or "bad grades" on teachers! [Again, I am not a frustrated old teacher getting some back!]

So, what's the practical impact for readers of this thread? If you are an elderly guy who married a comparatively young Thai girl of modest educational background and now has a young family, then you have a huge responsibility that adds up to a hellova lot more than your bank account. The good news is that knowledgeable parenthood doesn't require a big bank account. It requires thoughtfulness, learning and time. There is an old saying that many good heads in education say about how to educate a child: First, educate the parent.

Lazy Posts, Speculation, Cheap Shots, Envy, and Silly Argumentative Posts

Here I get annoyed.

This certainly doesn't apply to all, but generally to too many of the farang community that normally communicate here. (More about the significant Korean and Japanese communities at some other time!) First, over the past few years I have read posts of many genuinely concerned fathers (especially those who have young Thai wives and have conceived --- usually --- a second family). Without, I hope, being too critical or sounding like someone's mommy, they should have known better! Hello! What's more important? Golf? Or kids?

Some posters are really lazy, not that that is anything new! They don't even bother to read the various school web sites, let alone visit the schools with inteligent questions to ask. Oy!

One poster, in particular, is almost always argumentative or niggling (sometimes beyond cynical to snide) in his posts and fails to add anything constructive; just generally pecks away at silly points and asks for "facts," never providing any "facts" of his own. Such a piss ant! He seems, in particular, to have a hard on for Prem. He is easy to identify. Give us a break, dude! Say something useful, if you have something useful to say! Otherwise, why bother to post ? Got a problem with Prem? Take it up with the school!

Then, there is simple envy! Oy! Yes, it does cost more money to go to an international school, especially Prem. Some people do have the dosh. Okay, okay! Give it up! Fundamentally, you will get value for the buck, pound, whatever. So, what to do? You will have to look seriosuly and intelligently at the alternatives. Sorry, no more detail here about how to do that. Look at previous threads on this general topic and do some serious other research on your own. Google is awesome! There are some excellent suggestions, never mind moi.

Qualified Teachers and How Much Teachers Get Paid

The big and most important number in school budgets is --- and should be --- faculty and staff, especially "qualified" faculty. What is generally the situation here is awful for teachers, never mind qualified teachers! The unqualified and the questionably qualified (Looking at legitimate credentials!) are very poorly paid and should be. Some care; some don't. Sometimes they are generally given ridiculously difficult teaching conditions. (This does not happen, in my view, at Prem, never mind any crap from teachers there where the teachers, to my knowledge, work quite hard but, in some cases, sometimes haven't a clue as to how good they have got it comparatively --- except possibly in the very top-drawer international school job market, and I think they are probably doing a lot of very wishful thinking.).

I know useless old farts who are teaching in Chiang Mai schools who have absolutely no business being in front of students except that hiring them apparently affirms some wish of Thai parents that some native-speaker of English is a leg up! Oy!

I also know useless young farts (not all male) who like Thailand as a "growth experience" with cheap sex (boy friends, girl friends, whatever) thrown in to make living here more personally enjoyable. Or, think that they might be helping "save" less-privileged children in an ignorant culture. Oy! Most questionable teachers get paid in the low to mid 30s. A school like Prem pays a lot more, and recruiting is much more rigorous. I can not say from certain knowledge that this is true all the time of all international schools. In the past, unfortunately, I know (from the teacher) in one situation in a then new international school (not Prem) when someone was hired to teach there for more than a year or two whose first language was not English and did not even have a 12-year basic education! I do not make this up, but please do not ask me more about this now past situation. It is an unjfortunate illustration of the difficulty schools face from time to time. I should add that I am not aware of any such compromise at Prem, since this is a thread about Prem.

A school like Prem does pay more to get better faculty. And the school has great benefits for teachers beyond what other schools offer here. From my observation, they do comparatively well at that by a long shot. Hello! Guess why the school is more expensive! And this is not to say there are not good teachers at other international schools. There are. Hiring, for any school, this is a huge challenge. It is one of the hardest jobs of anyone who runs a school.

What makes a qualified teacher?...I hear someone ask! Well , there is no pat answer to this. Let's just put it this way when it comes to credentials and experience. Would you rather have a teacher with a degree in whatever in your child's classroom or a teacher who has decent educational and training credentials? That doesn't guarantee a credential-carrier is terrific, but ask this: Would you rather fly an airplane serviced by a properly trained aircraft mechanic or by one who has a background in garage engineering?

Government and Private Schools

Just to start the conversation, government schools suck, even the best in Chiang Mai! What do you expect from a system that pays starting teachers so little, something in the neighborhood of THB 8,000 a month? Randy old farang farts earn in the 30s just because to have farang on the faculty hypes the school's reputation. [Again, occasionally, some work out to be decent teachers -- especially faced with absurdly large number of students they have in any classroom, running 30 - 40 as an average.]

The Thai Ministry of Education has a huge budget. They don't seem to spend it where it counts. The budget is top heavy in benefits for higher officials, study groups (nice trips abroad from time to time), and educational yadda yadda. Is it spent on attracting and training good teachers? Yes, that's a rhetorical question!! But remember, this is true of many countries more economically fortunate than Thailand, and one has to admire some of the developments that have been made. Thailand is not a North American, European, or remote South Pacific country that seems to have overcome very humble beginnings!

I have suggested that there are a couple of relatively strong Thai government schools in town. There are. And you can also look at a Dara or a Prince Royal's. And there are some other schools, as well. Check it out if you have an especially limited budget. You'll never get what you get at an international school, but there is absolutely no price comparison. Don't expect too much from --- say --- native English speakers from the Philippines. Not that the language is anyone's province anymore, least those, probably, who come from England. Yorkshire, anyone ?!

On this gratuitous point, I shall exit for the evening. There are related points I shall not get into since I don't want to stir things up any more than I already might have. Besides, I have missed my dinner! So, apologies for my lack of proof reading.

Good night, all! Yes, worrying about children is a worthy worry.

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Hello All,

<snip>

Parents

To repeat what I have posted many, many times before: what is most important is the educational level of the parents (not the income level, which is also understandably correlated), not the schools, Maybe some posters might stop jacking off blaming schools for their children's problems. There are various easily identifiable contributions that parents can make, such as, simply, reading to children. Here, that challengingly means all (usually two) primary languages spoken at home. This seems chaotic at first, but it establishes the foundation for remarkable language development. Too hard? Better check out your priorities! [Parenthetically, I have done research in socialization, and in doing so discovered most (not all) research done by educational Ed.D types truly sucked!] Anyway, one man to value is Bloom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Bloom. He is an educator who kept on learning as he grew older. As he grew to a wiser old age, one of his strongest opinions was that early education is the most critical stage in development, and that it is basically up to the parents, not the schools. To gauge what I have read on this and other similar Thai Visa threads, most posters are ready to lay it all on the schools! Sorry, I think that is bs --- and shifting responsibility does not just apply to early childhood education. Schooling goes on; and the nurturing responsibility does not get easier! Don't just lay an educational problem or "bad grades" on teachers! [Again, I am not a frustrated old teacher getting some back!]

So, what's the practical impact for readers of this thread? If you are an elderly guy who married a comparatively young Thai girl of modest educational background and now has a young family, then you have a huge responsibility that adds up to a hellova lot more than your bank account. The good news is that knowledgeable parenthood doesn't require a big bank account. It requires thoughtfulness, learning and time. There is an old saying that many good heads in education say about how to educate a child: First, educate the parent.

<snip>

Yes, worrying about children is a worthy worry.

I agree strongly.

Many childless couples (by choice) in HK have told me they could not afford a child and my response has always been that it's not money but time and patience that they need most of all if they want to have a family. "Quality Time" just doesn't cut it; you need quantity time as well.

When moving here and choosing schools for our kids our priority was to choose one that displayed a kind of light touch. By that I mean we chose a school that we felt would do the least damage to the unfolding of the women that our girls would become.

As parents, we also apply a light touch to our parenting. That doesn't mean being lazy parents. We set and enforce clear rules and then let them carry on, but are always there when they want or need us. We are available for them for homework help, fashion advice (not that they'd ask me, but they do ask their mom), gossip-sharing, experience-sharing, shoulder-to-cry-on supplying, sibling conflict resolution, computer trouble-shooting, dead lizard disposal and a host of other things big and small.

To supply time to our kids is one (though not the only) of the reasons we decided to forgo higher incomes and move here.

Thanks to Mapguy for such a detailed post. It's still not detailed enough for me and so I hope to hear more from you on this subject.

Views on restaurants is of less interest to me.

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Goodness, but I got carried away!

Anyway, I forgot to post something worth reading comparing A Levels (British) and IB (Global) approaches to rigorous learning.

The AP program (American) is also broadly recognized in the USA as well as in Canada (I believe) and, to limited extent by some universities in other countries. There is more detailed information about it elsewhere on education threads on TV and, of course, at the source in the USA: http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/about.html

AP, IB, A Levels Comparison.docx

Edited by Mapguy
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It's a good discussion and Mapguy has made a vauable contribution.

If you''re taiking about Prem, I don't think you'll find many who would disagree it is about the fines physical facility to be found anywhere. As far as acdemics are concered I don't think you'll find any difference between Prem and what is offered at other Intl. schoold here. I know and have spoken to the student bodies at most of these schools and they are each as bright and cluess as each other. Again, as Mapguy pointed out, it is what happens at home that makes the real differece.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Widely discussed by those who are interested: The facts about how many students actually take and complete the IB program at Prem. Those who do not are offered a British IGCSE certificate.

<snip for brevity>

I thought this particular point about the UK IGCSE, was quite important ... if only because many parents send their children to Prem for only Grades 11 & 12, in order to do the IB-Diploma course. So I emailed the Head-of-School, and yesterday spoke to both her & the new Head-of-Senior-School, to get the latest information.

She tells me that it is at least 5 years since this, the offering of UK IGCSE, last happened. So while it was true in the early-years of the school, it is no longer correct.

The Careers-Councellor Jon Hartmann (email [email protected]) tells me that if, as their studies proceed, it becomes clear that a student cannot handle the IB-Diploma, they would then move to IB-Certificates, usually in Grade 11. This means that they drop the Extended-Essay & Theory-of-Knowledge.

If they cannot then handle 6 certificate-courses, they would then move to 5 courses at standard-level, and sit those 5 examinations. He says that the Thai Ministry of Education accepts 5 subjects at standard-level, with a grade of 4/7 in each, to be the equivalent of MS-6 at a Thai school, and hence qualifies for Thai universities.

He then goes on to say, "5 subjects, even if not passed at the exams, will still get a graduation certificate from PTIS if they have passed Semester 1 & 2 in Grade 12. We are talking about a very poor student in this case and one better suited to a Vocational school rather than a University. Vocational School simply requires a High-School graduation certificate. So these students would be accepted into the ideal post high school destination.

We can also be flexible to accept online courses for non-Diploma candidates, provided these courses come from schools as well acredited as we are. So for example a Tennis-Academy student could do three IB-certificate courses and three online courses in Sports Science, Business Management & Software Engineering !

So as a school we offer the best strategy for each individual. We have the highest possible accreditation .. The IB Diploma. We have IB certificates for less able academic students and finally a mixture of school delivered and online courses for talented academy students or students who want a different pathway." end-quote.

The academies he refers to are of course the Cricket, Tennis, Golf & Football Academies at Prem-Center, or what I guess I must now start to call 'Traidhos Three Generation Community for Learning'. Although I suspect I'll still be thinking 'Prem' for some time to come ! :rolleyes:

I would suggest that any reader of this thread, who requires more information or has further questions, should contact the relevant people at the school, or even-better go and visit them. :wai:

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