What Is A Native English Speaker?

[Firelily]

I was told the government requires an IELTS score of 6.0 or more to issue a work permit. I would say this is not very ambitious.... should be higher. (This is usually the score required for admission to master's programs in the US and Australia.)

[garro]

If you sent your child to an EP school, which teacher would you prefer:

1, a native speaker with a random bachelor's degree - say, in "communication technology", very little experience, maybe no TEFL training, OR

2, a non-native speaker who has a degree in teaching English as a second language, excellent but not perfect command of English, and ten years of experience?

I was scared shitless when I first had British and American kids in my class. I'm so grateful to my boss for believing in me from day 2 or so onwards, and to the children's families for giving me a chance and for accepting me.

The idea that all native speakers are less trained than the non-native speakers is overstated. There are plenty of non-native speakers with questionable qualifications. As to your question, I personally would be prefer my son to learn English from a native-speaker; I don't even like my wife talking to him in English.

I am glad that your boss took a chance on you and it worked out, but maybe not all reach your standard. I currently work with some excellent non-native English speakers, there are also some not so good. I have previously worked with a mixed bag of non-native speakers. I don't believe getting a IELTS mark of above 6 is enough; 6.5 is now required to work is certain professions in the UK and Ireland and many of the foreign workers still do not have an acceptable standard of English when they arrive .

[CosmicSurfer]

I worked with a Philapina teacher who I would have bet money was born and raised in California... Excellent vocab and not a trace of an accent... She later told me that Thailand was the furthest she has ever travel from the Phillipines.

I've also worked with Brits and Americans that spoke collquial English and had horrendous grammer, plus even though they had taught previously and had TEFL certificates, they had no idea about how to even understand the grammar they had to teach... never mind trying to present & explain it to others....

But for a true understanding of the nuances in a language, it's hard to beat the Native Speaker... No matter how well Non-Natives know the Rules of grammer, and how extensive is the vocabulary they have learned, the finer shades of a language come through living it.

CS

[garro]

I worked with a Philapina teacher who I would have bet money was born and raised in California... Excellent vocab and not a trace of an accent... She later told me that Thailand was the furthest she has ever travel from the Phillipines.

I've also worked with Brits and Americans that spoke collquial English and had horrendous grammer, plus even though they had taught previously and had TEFL certificates, they had no idea about how to even understand the grammar they had to teach... never mind trying to present & explain it to others....

But for a true understanding of the nuances in a language, it's hard to beat the Native Speaker... No matter how well Non-Natives know the Rules of grammer, and how extensive is the vocabulary they have learned, the finer shades of a language come through living it.

CS

Without doubt, there are some very good Filipino English and Indian teachers out there, but even the best of these non-native speakers are missing a 'freeness' with the language - from my experience. I often feel the negative comments. about the native speakers, have a lot to do with sour grapes and reverse-snobbery; in the same sort of way as people without academic degrees sometimes think that people who go to university are really stupid.

I personally think that the other foreign teachers make a mistake when they compare themselves with the native-speakers, because they are both offering different services; the non-natives are needed because the Thai teachers are mostly not capable of teaching road-worthy English while the native-speakers are needed to show how the language is actually used by English speakers. As unpopular as this sounds, I think that the non-native teachers should really be comparing their pay and conditions with the Thai teachers.

There is a racial issue in Thailand in that they prefer their native-speakers to be a certain colour. This is wrong, but I don't think that there is much we can do about it unless we can change the minds of the Thai public. This problem is not unique to Thailand though; I have heard that similar discrimination occurs in China, Japan, and elsewhere.

Edited June 15, 2009 by garro

[Xangsamhua]

Somewhere I picked up the distinction made between native speaking teachers who have "authenticity of language" and non-native speaking teachers who have "authenticity of pedagogy". It was attributed to Ken Widdowson in his keynote address to the TESOL conference in 1994 (?), but I haven't been able to find those actual words in anything he's said.

The idea was certainly reiterated in various testimonies by NNS teachers in George Braine's 1999 book on non-native speaking teachers in ELT and I have heard the idea voiced by Thai colleagues at times: "The foreign teachers know the language, but the Thai teachers know the children".

The view that there are different and, hopefully, complementary authenticities manifested by NS and NNS teachers in English language teaching assumes that both parties are competent and, whether by credentials + experience or experience alone, are qualified to pass the benefits of their different attributes on to their students. This being so, we need both NNS and NS teachers in our schools in Thailand. There is no need for hostility or disrespect between the two camps.

[BugJackBaron]

I worked with a Philapina teacher who I would have bet money was born and raised in California... Excellent vocab and not a trace of an accent... She later told me that Thailand was the furthest she has ever travel from the Phillipines.

I've also worked with Brits and Americans that spoke collquial English and had horrendous grammer, plus even though they had taught previously and had TEFL certificates, they had no idea about how to even understand the grammar they had to teach... never mind trying to present & explain it to others....

But for a true understanding of the nuances in a language, it's hard to beat the Native Speaker... No matter how well Non-Natives know the Rules of grammer, and how extensive is the vocabulary they have learned, the finer shades of a language come through living it.

CS

Without doubt, there are some very good Filipino English and Indian teachers out there, but even the best of these non-native speakers are missing a 'freeness' with the language - from my experience. I often feel the negative comments. about the native speakers, have a lot to do with sour grapes and reverse-snobbery; in the same sort of way as people without academic degrees sometimes think that people who go to university are really stupid.

I personally think that the other foreign teachers make a mistake when they compare themselves with the native-speakers, because they are both offering different services; the non-natives are needed because the Thai teachers are mostly not capable of teaching road-worthy English while the native-speakers are needed to show how the language is actually used by English speakers. As unpopular as this sounds, I think that the non-native teachers should really be comparing their pay and conditions with the Thai teachers.

There is a racial issue in Thailand in that they prefer their native-speakers to be a certain colour. This is wrong, but I don't think that there is much we can do about it unless we can change the minds of the Thai public. This problem is not unique to Thailand though; I have heard that similar discrimination occurs in China, Japan, and elsewhere.

I tend to agree. Although there are some Filipinos who are very good, most just give the illusion of fluency. I was surprised in Manila when I asked a Filipino guide why she didn't watch movies in English. She replied they were too difficult to understand! And the ESL books I have seen published by non-natives in Thailand are usually full of grammatical and other mistakes.

[Jungian]

Native language as defined by Princeton University is "the language that a person has spoken from earliest childhood" thus if you are raised bilingual as many of our children are and as I was that is your "native language" or languages. I think fluency is being able to think in the language you are speaking however the definition is only being able to read, write and speak with "smoothness or flow". On more than one occasion my daughter has had teachers who were not "native English speakers" and a few "just passing through" types which I put a quick end to.

[PeaceBlondie]

Xangsamhua wrote "...The view that there are different and, hopefully, complementary autheniticities manifested by NS and NNS teachers in English language teaching assumes that both parties are competent." Never assume this. Sometimes, neither party is competent.

[CosmicSurfer]

... I have heard the idea voiced by Thai colleagues at times: "The foreign teachers know the language, but the Thai teachers know the children".

What is the use of "knowing the children" when that knowledge is only used to support the usual substandard teaching methods, because 'that is the way they always do it, and what our students know', instead if breaking out of the 'Tried and Failed', and teaching them how to think and survive on their own in the real world.

At least any Native speaker demands that students make some effort, as opposed to the Thai acceptance of the lowest common denominator and just getting by.

CS

Edited June 16, 2009 by CosmicSurfer

[KhaoNiaw]

Without doubt, there are some very good Filipino English and Indian teachers out there, but even the best of these non-native speakers are missing a 'freeness' with the language

A lot of Filipinos and Indians have English as a native language these days - it's used in the home from birth, maybe alongside another language. Standard Indian English, for example, varies little from other standard forms of the language (e.g. UK or US) in terms of structure, the biggest differences are phonological.

[skybluestu]

There are a couple of points made in earlier posts I agree with. I also think that non-native English speakers should compare their salary with a Thai teacher rather than a native English speaker. I have been told by Filipino & Indian teachers that I know that the salary they receive here in Thailand is similar to, and often more than, the salary they would receive in their home country. Now compare that to a 'native' English speaker who maybe earned 80,000baht +++ in their home country but who now earns perhaps 30-40,000 here. Many (but not all) Filipinos, Indians etc are here purely for financial reasons, not because they enjoy living here, I don't think the same could be said for the majority of native speakers from the likes of the UK, USA, Australia etc as they are earning a lot less than they would do back in their home country but live here because they love Thailand and enjoy life here.

The other point I'd like to comment on was about the Filipino who said they did not watch movies in English as they were hard to understand. This explains why on the Dream Filipino TV channels I watch they often have subtitles in English for shows like CSI even though they are talking in English.

[garro]

Without doubt, there are some very good Filipino English and Indian teachers out there, but even the best of these non-native speakers are missing a 'freeness' with the language

A lot of Filipinos and Indians have English as a native language these days - it's used in the home from birth, maybe alongside another language. Standard Indian English, for example, varies little from other standard forms of the language (e.g. UK or US) in terms of structure, the biggest differences are phonological.

I am sorry KhaoNiaw, but I have worked with many Filipinos over the years and have yet to meet one who was a native speaker. Having family members speak a few English words now and again is just not the same thing. I have worked with educated Filipinos and with many of those even getting them to speak English rather than Tagalog (or other Philippines language) was often like pulling teeth. Where I worked in Saudi, they even had signs up saying 'only English or Arabic' but many would not comply; the argument being that they felt more comfortable speaking their own language. During the school break here I return to my own country and work for a few weeks, this is still an ongoing problem. There are some extremely competent English speakers from the Philippines, but only a small percentage of those that I have met could deserve that title; mind you if you compare them with the average Thai they are a different league.

When talking about Filipinos and Indians, I am referring to those actually born in these countries and not the race.

Edited June 16, 2009 by garro

[TVmonitor]

"native" means born - so it's the language you're born into......which may be more than one.

[chiang mai]

But surely by definition English means from England, ergo an English speaking person from America for example is not a native English speaker but an American person speaking English, aka American English?

[TVmonitor]

But surely by definition English means from England, ergo an English speaking person from America for example is not a native English speaker but an American person speaking English, aka American English?

No, it doesn't.

Edited June 16, 2009 by TVmonitor

[KhaoNiaw]

I am sorry KhaoNiaw, but I have worked with many Filipinos over the years and have yet to meet one who was a native speaker. Having family members speak a few English words now and again is just not the same thing.

I work with one. Her family always used English at home - she has very limited Tagalog. She has an accent and her English usage is different to mine at times, but that is the same if you compare me with my American colleagues.

We're not talking about a few words now and again. A lot of people who have English as a first and only language fail to comprehend that being bilingual or multilingual is the default setting for the majority of people in the world. That doesn't mean that all of their languages are used equally or interchangeably. Maybe one at school, another in the home; one with parents, another with friends; one in government offices, another in the pub, another in the work setting. In those countries where new varieties of English have emerged, I would say that there are native speakers, still relatively small in overall terms, but no reason to be so dismissive of them.

As an alternative to the 'native speaker' label, Kachru's 3 circles are often used for linguistic description:

'Inner circle' countries are the traditional English-speaking countries e.g. UK, US, NZ, AUS, etc.

'Outer circle' countries are those where English is in daily use officially, or as language of education, with its own body of English literature, used in the media etc. e.g. India, non-English S.Africa, Philippines

'Expanding circle' countries are those where English is basically a foreign language e.g. Thailand

Edited June 16, 2009 by KhaoNiaw

[loong]

The other point I'd like to comment on was about the Filipino who said they did not watch movies in English as they were hard to understand. This explains why on the Dream Filipino TV channels I watch they often have subtitles in English for shows like CSI even though they are talking in English.

I'm a native English speaker and I have difficulty understanding most of the American actors, but that's mainly because they don't open their mouths and mumble.

[garro]

I am sorry KhaoNiaw, but I have worked with many Filipinos over the years and have yet to meet one who was a native speaker. Having family members speak a few English words now and again is just not the same thing.

I work with one. Her family always used English at home - she has very limited Tagalog. She has an accent and her English usage is different to mine, but that is the same if you compare me with my American colleagues.

We're not talking about a few words now and again. A lot of people who have English as a first and only language fail to comprehend that being bilingual or multilingual is the default setting for the majority of people in the world. That doesn't mean that all of their languages are used equally or interchangeably. Maybe one at school, another in the home; one with parents, another with friends; one in government offices, another in the pub, another in the work setting.

I will take your word for it, but I have never met a Filipino like your colleague. It is only since teaching English in Thailand that I have met Filipinos who would even be bothered with the issue. The colleagues I have worked with previously have all been very proud of their native languages and are only interested in speaking English in so far as it helps them work abroad. The ones raising families in the west are determined that their children grow up being able to speak their native language.

Edited June 16, 2009 by garro

[chiang mai]

But surely by definition English means from England, ergo an English speaking person from America for example is not a native English speaker but an American person speaking English, aka American English?

No, it doesn't.

It may be helpful to our current debate if you could perhaps expand on your current thinking!

[bangkokrick]

But surely by definition English means from England, ergo an English speaking person from America for example is not a native English speaker but an American person speaking English, aka American English?

Agreed Chiang Mai as a native English speaker myself. I would also add anyone who's country has English as it's primary language.

Cheers, Rick

[GraBangkok]

Hi All,

I can't remember where I got this from but I always find it amusing. I suggest if you can read, speak and understand this you are a native English speaker. lol

I take it you already know

Of tough and bough and cough and dough?

Others may stumble but not you

On hiccough, thorough, slough and through.

Well done! And now you wish perhaps,

To learn of less familiar traps?

Beware of heard, a dreadful word

That looks like beard and sounds like bird.

And dead, it's said like bed, not bead-

for goodness' sake don't call it 'deed'!

Watch out for meat and great and threat

(they rhyme with suite and straight and debt).

A moth is not a moth in mother,

Nor both in bother, broth, or brother,

And here is not a match for there,

Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,

And then there's doze and rose and lose-

Just look them up- and goose and choose,

And cork and work and card and ward

And font and front and word and sword,

And do and go and thwart and cart-

Come, I've hardly made a start!

A dreadful language? Man alive!

I'd learned to speak it when I was five!

And yet to write it, the more I sigh,

I'll not learn how 'til the day I die.

Cheers, Rick

Good one Rick, don't remember that one, will use it on my daughter soon

[PeaceBlondie]

Native residents of USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, Scotland, Eire, etc., are native speakers for purposes of this discussion.

[garro]

But surely by definition English means from England, ergo an English speaking person from America for example is not a native English speaker but an American person speaking English, aka American English?

Agreed Chiang Mai as a native English speaker myself. I would also add anyone who's country has English as it's primary language.

Cheers, Rick

I think that the fact that English is called 'English' confuses a lot of people. It is actually believed to be a Germanic language with the original inhabitants of England speaking a form of Gaelic or other language. It wasn't even an official language of England until around the reformation and the introduction of Bible (or was that common prayer) in English. Before that many English went to great lengths to claim that they were native- French speakers.

[garro]

Native residents of USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, Scotland, Eire, etc., are native speakers for purposes of this discussion.

It is the etc. where the debate occurs

[bangkokrick]

But surely by definition English means from England, ergo an English speaking person from America for example is not a native English speaker but an American person speaking English, aka American English?

Agreed Chiang Mai as a native English speaker myself. I would also add anyone who's country has English as it's primary language.

Cheers, Rick

I think that the fact that English is called 'English' confuses a lot of people. It is actually believed to be a Germanic language with the original inhabitants of England speaking a form of Gaelic or other language. It wasn't even an official language of England until around the reformation and the introduction of Bible (or was that common prayer) in English. Before that many English went to great lengths to claim that they were native- French speakers.

Garro wash your mouth out with soapy water. French speakers!!! lol

Seriously I agree with you as the following suggests. The origins of English are in the language Old English (Anglo-Saxon), which derived from the theorized Proto-Germanic* language, the ancestor of the Germanic languages (like German, Dutch, Swedish, etc.). Old English then mixed with a little bit of Old Norse (the ancestral language of the Scandinavian languages). About 25% of Modern English words are of Germanic origin.

I work for a Scandinavian company and the company business language is English. I find that the Scandinavians speak extremely good English maybe because of the above.

Cheers, Rick

[PeaceBlondie]

Native residents of USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, Scotland, Eire, etc., are native speakers for purposes of this discussion.

It is the etc. where the debate occurs

Sorry - maybe Jamaica, Belize, South Africa, Sierra Leone, former Rhodesia, Singapore - not Togo, Phillipines. Bhutan, Burkhina Faso, etc.

[KhaoNiaw]

Native residents of USA, Canada, Oz, NZ, Scotland, Eire, etc., are native speakers for purposes of this discussion.

It is the etc. where the debate occurs

Sorry - maybe Jamaica, Belize, South Africa, Sierra Leone, former Rhodesia, Singapore - not Togo, Phillipines. Bhutan, Burkhina Faso, etc.

If you follow a lot of the academic debate on this topic, you will generally find the Philippines bracketed as an 'outer circle' country along with the likes of Singapore, India, Hong Kong and Nigeria (i.e. 2nd language rather than 'expanding circle' or foreign language where I suspect you would find Bhutan and Burkhina Faso and Thailand)

Edited June 16, 2009 by KhaoNiaw

[Xangsamhua]

The other point I'd like to comment on was about the Filipino who said they did not watch movies in English as they were hard to understand. This explains why on the Dream Filipino TV channels I watch they often have subtitles in English for shows like CSI even though they are talking in English.

I'm a native English speaker and I have difficulty understanding most of the American actors, but that's mainly because they don't open their mouths and mumble.

Me too. Is it something to do with Method Acting?

[chiang mai]

I'm sure most posters in this thread will have seen this before but no harm in a refresher:

http://www.englishclub.com/english-language-history.htm

[Xangsamhua]

Garro wash your mouth out with soapy water. French speakers!!! lol

Seriously I agree with you as the following suggests. The origins of English are in the language Old English (Anglo-Saxon), which derived from the theorized Proto-Germanic* language, the ancestor of the Germanic languages (like German, Dutch, Swedish, etc.). Old English then mixed with a little bit of Old Norse (the ancestral language of the Scandinavian languages). About 25% of Modern English words are of Germanic origin.

I work for a Scandinavian company and the company business language is English. I find that the Scandinavians speak extremely good English maybe because of the above.

Cheers, Rick

For a revisionist view of the history of English vis-a-vis Anglo-Saxon see Mick Harper's History of Britain Revealed. There's a short review of it at http://blather.net/blather/2003/08/review_..._history_o.html