Another Perspective On Thailand's Volunteer Tourist Police

[Maizefarmer]

No shortage of “unease” expressed by punters about the volunteer tourist police.

Nothing new about it – similar programs in the West have been run for years to help Western law enforcement deal with their resident and tourist Asian communities – and very successfully so as well. But there are some differences between those “volunteer” programs and the program we have in Thailand.

The paramilitary style uniform doesn’t help – it invites “comments”.

Yes, its very Thai/Asian style and TIT, but one of the rationale behind the program is to take down the cultural & language barriers Western tourists find difficult to deal with – the uniform blurs the distinction between the RTTP and ex-pat volunteers. It really should go.

Physical interaction with tourists has to be a no-go area – if only for the volunteers to protect them-selves, never mind handling an irate tourist for whatever reason when their are plenty Thai cops about to do that if needed - I can think of a whole bunch of scenarios which would throw the project to the dogs if a volunteer were hauled before a court as a consequence of an incident involving a tourist – even if that incident came about as a result of the behaviour/actions of the police they were with while on duty, and not them directly.

In the unlikely event a Thai court dealt the death knoll, you can be sure the European tabloid media would have a field day, and the public response to that print (rightly or wrongly) would do the program no favour at all.

Due-diligence on applicant backgrounds would appear to something to be desired – don’t be surprised if a UK tabloid runs some print on volunteer x in the not to distant future (it's coming)– thats not ging to help the public image of the program.

Volunteers should not be allowed to comment on or get into discussion with folk – except to translate - comments and interactions like putting a hand up and saying "don't video", or "you are videoing covertly ........." - it's done, it's going on uTube (as it subsequently did), nothing you can do about it, the video couldn't have been taken away, no law was breached and to try and take it away would more than likely have got someone esle to get a video camera out and ... video some more - you just look silly trying to play a role in a situation with no role to play. The best thing to do would have been to smile and say, "Hi, having a nice evening". This example is perhaps a bad example of commenting and internacting with folk, but it emphasizes the point - volunteers are constantly in the public eye and will be subjected to more scrutiny than the RTTP they work with.

This and physical interaction with folk are both roles that police get extensive training in how to go about to avoid comebacks.

The recent videos showed a number of things/actions no volunteer in a similar Western program would be allowed to carry out/or get involved with ...… yes, I know TIT, buts its these small things that become accepted and unchallenged informal conduct that have the potential to form the basis to something that can escalate out of control and become a serious incident.

The volunteer program has the potential to play a very useful and helpful role – its members have to be beyond personal and professional reproach, their role and the image they present must be one of impartiality (currently it’s to tightly aligned with the RTPF “image”). The role they play also needs to be defined and clarified (both internally and to the public) and it then needs to be enforced. The legislation that governs their “employment” needs to have all it’s I’s dotted and T’s crossed.

Till then it’s a flawed program open to an incident that could damage it irretrievably, and the ultimate loosers will be tourists.

[perousing]

very nicely written Maizefarmer, lets hope someone is listening,but have my doubts. and i agree with you 100% that they should be only there to translate, that what they were set up to do.

[britmaveric]

I think they are doing an outstanding job and at the end of the day they are providing a great service for the community and tourists alike. So big thumbs up and hopefully they can expand their operations in the future.

[mrtoad]

The paramilitary style uniform doesn’t help – it invites “comments”.

Yes, its very Thai/Asian style and TIT, but one of the rationale behind the program is to take down the cultural & language barriers Western tourists find difficult to deal with – the uniform blurs the distinction between the RTTP and ex-pat volunteers. It really should go.

Having watched the first 3 episodes, I'd say that the volunteers have a place to play and I'm not going to get into all the usual nonsense about it. I think you have made some very good points.

The uniform is an interesting point, I really do not see the benefits of the "para military" style of uniform which the Pattaya volunteers wear. Having worked in what can only be described as difficult environments, these type of uniforms do not help portray the volunteers in a good light considering their supposed role. They have no legal standing as such, so I don't see that they need to be dressed the way they are. IMO they would be much better served by wearing a more casual look such as a very plain polo shirt (not black) to differentiate them from the authorities here. The look to me, looks far too confrontational, considering their position and some of them look to thrive upon their "position of power", there needs to be some serious thought into how and what they can do. I'm not going to bash them, think they do a decent enough job in that what they appear to do, it's just that there needs to be a little more structure, training, regulations and DD to ensure that the right people are doing this. I don't at the moment think that is happening and it looks like another half baked scheme dreamed up by the Hub of BS.

[CWMcMurray]

I have watched the "Big Trouble Epsisodes" and from what I have seen they appeart to be doing a good job both for their community and the tourists...

I say keep up the good work.

fyi.. other than the "Jet Ski Scam", I haven't seen anything else that really shows Thailand in a bad light... or would deter anyone from coming to Thailand for vacation.

[Beacher]

These are good, interesting, and valid points. I agree that the concept of tourist/racially mixed community police volunteers is a good one - only a fool would say otherwise, but the OP is spot on with his criticisms of what's happening in Pattaya. The successful programs in other countries have very stringent rules about how far these people can take their limited authority, and as pointed out, the attire is vastly different from the black, threatening costumes that these guys wear. I also suspect that in countries where this type of assistance has been successful, it would be very much frowned upon to see these volunteers walking 5 abreast in a thugish manner down one of the busiest tourist-attracting streets in the city. I would bet big that if these people changed the way they dress and put on a sharp looking (white) polo shirt with a discreet logo on it indicating their association with the real tourist police, instead of these all black menacing looking outfits, they would be accepted much better, and negative comments would be greatly reduced. We must remember that in cinema and stories the good guy wears white and the bad guy wears black. We've had that relationship with those two colours etched into our minds from the time we were quite young, so I really can't understand why these people choose the much less friendly (and trustworthy) black option, unless they want to be "bad boys" that are out to intimidate. I would also bet that the "bad boy" look really appeals to some of the volunteers, and if the black outfit was done away with, so would their interest in being part of the program.

[harleyclarkey]

I have watched the "Big Trouble Epsisodes" and from what I have seen they appeart to be doing a good job both for their community and the tourists...

I say keep up the good work.

fyi.. other than the "Jet Ski Scam", I haven't seen anything else that really shows Thailand in a bad light... or would deter anyone from coming to Thailand for vacation.

The bribe asked for (60k baht) in the "drug bust"...a paltry piece of smoke.....of the young English girl clearly showed the corruption of the police.

The corrupt legal system and the equally corrupt Thai police, don't give real credence to a foreigners complaint.

The brutal jailers and the sub human conditions in their jails are shocking to any Westerner.

No. Thailand is not looking good at all.

[harleyclarkey]

Yes, for sure every person who perceives themselves as being in a position of power, or more often authority, will don "the uniform". How close are security men's uniforms here to the police? It makes them have that feel good factor and give them an air of authority in situations that most of us here would walk away from and not get involved in.

I commend and admire anyone who gives up their time as volunteers. It is all to often a thankless task and they all too often go as unsung heroes. How many here know the RNLI (Lifeboat rescue around the coasts of Ireland and the UK) are unpaid volunteers? The odd coxswain and engineer gets paid but the crew regularly put their lives on the line, to save others, for free! The Vincent De Paul? The Samaritans? Habitat for Humanity? The list is endless. These all are people who try to do good and help others. I won't be an armchair megaphone and rubbish them.

I personally have no problem with the uniform. I couldn't care less what uniform they wear. But put these guys in a white polo shirt/black trousers and stand back and watch the abuse and fights. They would have no chance. The uniform helps to keep the human flotsam that they deal with at bay, and somewhat under control.

Edited September 28, 2009 by harleyclarkey

[Beacher]

Yes, for sure every person who perceives themselves as being in a position of power, or more often authority, will don "the uniform". How close are security men's uniforms here to the police? It makes them have that feel good factor and give them an air of authority in situations that most of us here would walk away from and not get involved in.

I commend and admire anyone who gives up their time as volunteers. It is all to often a thankless task and they all too often go as unsung heroes. How many here know the RNLI (Lifeboat rescue around the coasts of Ireland and the UK) are unpaid volunteers? The odd coxswain and engineer gets paid but the crew regularly put their lives on the line, to save others, for free! The Vincent De Paul? The Samaritans? Habitat for Humanity? The list is endless. These all are people who try to do good and help others. I won't be an armchair megaphone and rubbish them.

I personally have no problem with the uniform. I couldn't care less what uniform they wear. But put these guys in a white polo shirt/black trousers and stand back and watch the abuse and fights. They would have no chance. The uniform helps to keep the human flotsam that they deal with at bay, and somewhat under control.

I think that this touches on a problem the OP is pointing out. Where these types of programs have been successful, the volunteers don't "deal with" the human flotsam - they assist the police, usually with barriers involving language and customs. The REAL police are paid to deal with the "flotsam" (BTW, you probably couldn't have picked a more derogatory term when referring to fellow human beings. LOL)

And I really don't understand what you're saying about, "But put these guys in a white polo shirt/black trousers and stand back and watch the abuse and fights." Perhaps you could elaborate.

Edited September 28, 2009 by Beacher

[CWMcMurray]

I do agree with your comment on the coruption... but the girl did admit she was guilty of the crime and the program did show the sign stating the penatlies for being caught with drugs that tourists see once they get off the boat.

I would say that considering the Laws pertaining to Drug posesion that exist in Thailand, she got off quite light. While I do not like the idea of coruption at all... the corruption in this case was the Thai Police willing to look past the law for a person who amitted that they were guilty of the crime.

This is still bad, but not as bad (in my opinion) as the Police abusing their position to extort money from people who maintain their inocence.

Both are wrong....but only one of the above situations actually contains a true victim. The other contains a person paying a fine for their crime (fitting based upon the crime in this case), the only problem is that the "fine" is going into the wrong pockets.

I have watched the "Big Trouble Epsisodes" and from what I have seen they appeart to be doing a good job both for their community and the tourists...

I say keep up the good work.

fyi.. other than the "Jet Ski Scam", I haven't seen anything else that really shows Thailand in a bad light... or would deter anyone from coming to Thailand for vacation.

The bribe asked for (60k baht) in the "drug bust"...a paltry piece of smoke.....of the young English girl clearly showed the corruption of the police.

The corrupt legal system and the equally corrupt Thai police, don't give real credence to a foreigners complaint.

The brutal jailers and the sub human conditions in their jails are shocking to any Westerner.

No. Thailand is not looking good at all.

Edited September 28, 2009 by CWMcMurray

[daoyai]

.....I think jetsam is more derogatory than "flotsam".

[KickJixenberg]

I am all for them, they do a great job as far as I am concerned.

I think they should all be kitted out to the nines with semi-auto Glocks. I want to see Let. Gen Maj Howard packing some serious heat on Walking street with his Glock smoking after nailing some soi hoods who have just done a bust at a notorious go go bar. I want to see Howard turn to the camera and say 'som nam nah mother f'er'.

[caf]

I am all for them, they do a great job as far as I am concerned.

I think they should all be kitted out to the nines with semi-auto Glocks. I want to see Let. Gen Maj Howard packing some serious heat on Walking street with his Glock smoking after nailing some soi hoods who have just done a bust at a notorious go go bar. I want to see Howard turn to the camera and say 'som nam nah mother f'er'.

You must be psychic. That's exactly how the actor Howard plays the role in an upcoming episode

[bridge]

I am all for them, they do a great job as far as I am concerned.

I think they should all be kitted out to the nines with semi-auto Glocks. I want to see Let. Gen Maj Howard packing some serious heat on Walking street with his Glock smoking after nailing some soi hoods who have just done a bust at a notorious go go bar. I want to see Howard turn to the camera and say 'som nam nah mother f'er'.

You must be psychic. That's exactly how the actor Howard plays the role in an upcoming episode

Apparently they are in dialogue with Howard at the moment, they will probably start shooting 'Dirty Howard' by years out. Imagine that

Edited September 28, 2009 by bridge

[harleyclarkey]

Yes, for sure every person who perceives themselves as being in a position of power, or more often authority, will don "the uniform". How close are security men's uniforms here to the police? It makes them have that feel good factor and give them an air of authority in situations that most of us here would walk away from and not get involved in.

I commend and admire anyone who gives up their time as volunteers. It is all to often a thankless task and they all too often go as unsung heroes. How many here know the RNLI (Lifeboat rescue around the coasts of Ireland and the UK) are unpaid volunteers? The odd coxswain and engineer gets paid but the crew regularly put their lives on the line, to save others, for free! The Vincent De Paul? The Samaritans? Habitat for Humanity? The list is endless. These all are people who try to do good and help others. I won't be an armchair megaphone and rubbish them.

I personally have no problem with the uniform. I couldn't care less what uniform they wear. But put these guys in a white polo shirt/black trousers and stand back and watch the abuse and fights. They would have no chance. The uniform helps to keep the human flotsam that they deal with at bay, and somewhat under control.

I think that this touches on a problem the OP is pointing out. Where these types of programs have been successful, the volunteers don't "deal with" the human flotsam - they assist the police, usually with barriers involving language and customs. The REAL police are paid to deal with the "flotsam" (BTW, you probably couldn't have picked a more derogatory term when referring to fellow human beings. LOL)

And I really don't understand what you're saying about, "But put these guys in a white polo shirt/black trousers and stand back and watch the abuse and fights." Perhaps you could elaborate.

It was pointed out in the post before that they should have T/Polo Shirts or whatever. Going around Pattaya dressed in a T shirt will lose any sense of authority the uniform gives them. this is what the police and military often rely on to control situations....the uniform. Say you see 6 guys in police/military uniform and right beside them 6 guys in T shirts . Both are telling you what to do....who would you listen to first?

[Beardog]

I don't get in any trouble even on the rare occasions I am on walking street, but I got to agree with the rent-a cop outfits.

No disrespect intended but it makes them look like dweebs trying to hide behind authority they lack.

They seem to be better as a waking info center & like a rent a cop I wouldn't stop if they told me to as they are not real cops. I am not saying there isn't a need for them but ditch the useless uniforms!

[cmdream]

The uniform of any police is used as a deterrent to potential problem makers as well as a person the tourist can turn to if they need assistance. The tourist places everywhere present a gold mine of victims for bag snatch, grab and run thieves etc. Just add my 2 satangs worth.

[KickJixenberg]

I think they volunteer tourist police should all be fitted out with Gold Desert Eagles. First one goes to Lt. Gen. Maj Sgt. Howard.

Who is with me on this one? I know i'm not alone

[harleyclarkey]

I do agree with your comment on the coruption... but the girl did admit she was guilty of the crime and the program did show the sign stating the penatlies for being caught with drugs that tourists see once they get off the boat.

I would say that considering the Laws pertaining to Drug posesion that exist in Thailand, she got off quite light. While I do not like the idea of coruption at all... the corruption in this case was the Thai Police willing to look past the law for a person who amitted that they were guilty of the crime.

This is still bad, but not as bad (in my opinion) as the Police abusing their position to extort money from people who maintain their inocence.

Both are wrong....but only one of the above situations actually contains a true victim. The other contains a person paying a fine for their crime (fitting based upon the crime in this case), the only problem is that the "fine" is going into the wrong pockets.

Yes, she did admit to holding the small piece of grass (it was her BF's and not hers), a quantity so small it wouldn't even warrant a fine in most enlightened countries. And yes this is Thailand and so their laws apply.

The problem in Thailand is ya ba and the destruction this causes. But then the foreigner is perceived to be the one with money so the Thais police shake them down. In this case she and her BF had no money, probably to the disgust of the dirty corrupt police. How many Thais do you think were arrested that night???

Also there were prisoners who told of stories of signing documents with no lawyer nor translator present. it is all too easy for us here in a quiet calm environment to condemn them for signing. It is a totally different matter when you are being institutionally abused and alone.

I don't agree with your interpretation of victims. I believe she is one, like many a foreigner before her, of the Thai police and the dirty corrupt system they operate in cahoots with the prosecutors, judges and jailers. All rotten to the core and a disgrace to their uniforms. and their country.

[cmdream]

The uniform of any police is used as a deterrent to potential problem makers as well as a person the tourist can turn to if they need assistance. The tourist places everywhere present a gold mine of victims for bag snatch, grab and run thieves etc. Just add my 2 satangs worth.

[Maizefarmer]

Fair comment ........... but that is one of the very preconceptions about them that will ultimately undo the good this program has to offer visitors to Thailand

Perceiving the volunteers in that light, and/or "presenting" them to the tourist community in that way is to manipulate the rationale behind their role: they are NOT mean't to be law enforcement officers - they are a "link" between law enforcement and foreign tourists, to help overcome language and cultural barriers, an effort to take out of interaction betwen law enforcement officers and tourists misunderstandings that arise from anability on both sides (both sides - not just the law enforcement side, or the visitors side - both sides).

To use them as law enforcement will be to invite trouble.

Many of comments made on the subject on TV to date are a clear indivcation that their image and role needs to be made clear to the public.

A great idea would be to invite a public policy statement - and what better place than to pin it to Thai Visa (at least for the English speaking community)

Included in that policy statement should be clarification of just the above question i.e. their role, the legislation under which they operate, standard operating procedures .... ect ect ... coverage of all the issues that define the volunteers and the role they play - and I would invite George to seriously think of approaching the volunteers' appointed representative to ask for a policy statement to be made.

What do other TV members think of this?

Edited September 28, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[bazmlb]

I will contact both TPV and FPV and see what we can put together.

[LooseCannon]

.....

It was pointed out in the post before that they should have T/Polo Shirts or whatever. Going around Pattaya dressed in a T shirt will lose any sense of authority the uniform gives them. this is what the police and military often rely on to control situations....the uniform. Say you see 6 guys in police/military uniform and right beside them 6 guys in T shirts . Both are telling you what to do....who would you listen to first?

But isn't that the point - they don't have any authority. They are not there to 'control the situation', that is the job of the Thai police. The job of the volunteers is to provide a communication bridge between 'drunken northern yob with an unintelligible accent' & a Thai policeman with poor English language skills.

Floral Hawaiian shirts present a non-threatening demeanor in a potentially volatile situation, black para military style uniforms will only inflame any such situation,it's red rag to a bull.

You don't need a paramilitary uniform with all the trappings to direct lost tourists to their hotels, give directions to wherever, raise money for charities & whatever helpful deeds they perform. I would have thought a 2-way radio would be sufficient to call police when they see an incident developing.

[jrbkk64]

It is very clear to me from both Youtube and having been to WS many times, that most of the guys volunteering for this "job" do it for the perceived "status" it gives them. It also seems that much more scrutiny needs to be applied to the backgrounds and motives of the volunteers. Howie just makes a complete idiot of himself if you ask me.

There defenitely is a role for a "link" between Thai police/Authorities in general and the average tourist in trouble. My (Thai) secretary is my "link" ;-). Any person being a "link" should at least speak Thai and English, have no authority, should have a minimum level of education and be properly prepared/trained to deal with unruly tourists and corrupt authorities alike.

By the way: do the volunteers share in the police honey pot? ;-)

[cdnvic]

We have enough topics running on this same subject and I'm closing this to keep the debate from running in a parallel thread. Most of the points here are being made in the other thread by the same posters.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Big-Trouble-...nd-t291222.html