Holland Papaya's Not Suited To Organics?

[Smithson]

We've been growing a few varieties of papaya from saved seeds from my wife's grandma. They grow well, have nice fruit etc and no real problems with diseases.

A while ago I planted some Holland variety from a fruit given to me. These seem much more susceptible to ring spot virus than the other varieties and don't have particularly high yields.

In the Thai ag magazine there was a special on growing papayas, mainly Holland. Everything was done with chemicals, lots of fertilizers and sprays.

So I'm wondering if this variety is not so pest/disease resistant and needs chems to produce well.

The fruit look really nice (easier to sell), but tend to ripen after they are picked (longer shelf life), so maybe they are more suited to large scale commercial growers?

A lot of ppl rave about the flavor, however I've the other varieties we have to be at least as good if not better.

Any thoughts?

[rice555]

Hello Smithson, why are you making such statements about the quality of a fruit that you grew from a 'saved seed', from a HYBIRD? Part of the drum beat of the OG movement back 40 years ago was that saved seed, from hybird, don't grow true to form, grow O-P seed. Has that changed?

Your test doesn't sound very scientific.

rice555

[Smithson]

Rice, I've come here to learn and share with others. If you have some experience growing Holland (or anything else) organically pls share. But if you want to get into arguments about 'OG drum beats', I suggest you give it a rest and get back to your run-to-waste hydro.

There was no 'scientific test', just my observations. I'd be interested to know if others feel the problem was from saved seeds. The other papayas I grew were saved seeds and went fine, so this is one reason I would use them over Holland. Although I'm no expert, I had heard the High Yield Varieties were not suited to organics and are susceptible to pests and diseases, so require chems.

[jandtaa]

Hi Folks

Let's try to keep it civil guys .

Smithson I agree with Rice555 that hybrid seed will not stay true from saved seed, this is a fact.Hybrid seed is created to be resistant to a number of diseases so choosing a variety bred for cultivation in a particular location is important, all the seed companies list which strains are resistant to specific diseases. At the same time as creating disease resistant strains other genetic desirabilities such as shelf life, fruit size and dwarfing for easy harvest are considered. I believe they also try to increase the ratio of hermaphrodite/female to male producing seeds.

Generally seed companies do not produce seed for backyard growers but have the commercial boys in mind so you're correct in this assumption. As Rice has suggested try an open-pollinated variety whose saved seed will stay true to the parent (it does sound like you are doing this already), by selecting seed from your best performing plants ( you could choose those that ripen earliest, largest fruit size, pest resistance etc... ) and over time you will breed these characteristics into your plants with the bonus that these will be naturally adapted to your own location and growing methods (do make sure that you select seed from more than one plant though as you need to maintain genetic diversity within the variety). Hybrid seed is simply a method of speeding up this process of natural selection. With regards to hybrids needing chemicals to thrive I'm not completely sure, although I would guess that this response may also be bred in to suit commercial growers.

There is a method for "reverse engineering" hybrid seed to create an open pollinated variety with the characteristics of the parent material but it's fairly advanced and time consuming plant breeding. Another method for propagating hybrids so that they remain true is through cuttings and I posted info about this in another papaya thread.

Anyway It's really just a matter of experimenting, observing and finding the varieties of fruits and vegetables that are best suited your location and growing methods. If you feel open-pollinated, organic grown produce tastes better you may have to put up with slightly lesser yields etc to begin with than if you were to use hybrids but unless you are in a commercial situation this is unlikely to be a problem.

Cheers for now J   

[Smithson]

Thanks for the info Jandtaa, it would be good to here from someone who has planted 'proper' Holland seeds and is growing organically.

Personally I think if seed saving is not an option that's a disadvantage for small scale organics. Sometimes while we are away from the block fruit ripens and drops. In this case I grab the seeds, throw them around and give the fallen fruit to the worms.

Not very scientific, but simple and effective - tests have shown Papayas sewn directly produce better yields than those transplanted.

[HerbalEd]

Hello Smithson, why are you making such statements about the quality of a fruit that you grew from a 'saved seed', from a HYBIRD? Part of the drum beat of the OG movement back 40 years ago was that saved seed, from hybird, don't grow true to form, grow O-P seed. Has that changed?

Your test doesn't sound very scientific.

rice555

Dr. Science .... How do you know he's growing a "HYBRID" ... he never even uses that word in his post. Even so, remember that after millions of years of evolution, all plants are hybrids to some degree. It spite of some myth you might have heard 40 years ago, many hybrids will indeed grow true to form ... and many won't. You gotta be careful with absolute answers when it comes to nature because she especially loves variety and exceptions to the rule and could never survive without it.

Edited December 9, 2009 by HerbalEd

[rice555]

Hello HerbalEd, 2 ways,

1. I've been growing them for 2 years, my seed came from the "largest" Holland grower in LOS. The smallest seed orders are 100grms.

2. if you can read a Thai ag magazine, you might see "Holland F1 Hyb.".

You might go back and read other T-V papaya threads as Holland's have been talked about before, with pictures. In fact, I think it was brought up with the OP before.

Your other points have nothing to do with Holland F1 Hyb. papaya, have at it, start your own thread on hyb. or not seed.

rice555 from more science highschool

[Smithson]

In fact, I think it was brought up with the OP before.

That's correct, I'd read many of the threads about Holland, with a lot of ppl raving about the taste. Although my seeds may not have been 'true', I wouldn't bother with the Holland again. They seem more suited to commercial growers who are concerned about shelf life, appearance and weight (they are very heavy for their size).

They took several days to ripen of the tree and still didn't taste as good as the 'mongrel' varieties given to me by an old lady. These ones don't look as nice, but taste great straight off the tree.

Your other points have nothing to do with Holland F1 Hyb. papaya, have at it, start your own thread on hyb. or not seed.

I think it would be useful to expand the discussion into whether 'hybrids' are suitable for organics.

[jandtaa]

Hi Smithson

Yes I believe they are !! Whether they produce as well when given organic inputs as apposed to chems, sorry no idea. For a long time my father and myself although growing organically always used F1 hybrids for seed. As always some varieties performed better than others and we tended to stick with them. Now whether that was because the variety was better suited to our location or performed better because of organic inputs I cannot say, we never conducted this trial.

I think what Rice555 and myself are saying is that you need to start with "true" hybrid seed to begin with (you cannot compare saved seed from a hybrid plant to seed certified as hybrid). The simple reason I am now switching to OP seed is that I don't want to rely on bringing new seed in from abroad every year and as mentioned earlier I can play Dr. Frankenstein with my plants. Yeah if you want to be a purist you'll only purchase organic F1 seed (don't even know if it exists, I'll have to check out my suppliers) or buy OP organic seed (as opposed general OP seed which may or may not be organically produced).

What chemical residue resides in an in-organic seed I have no idea (but guess it's very little, especially the amount that may transfer to the final produce) but I'm not going to lose sleep over it !! It's going to be more about the way the parent plant was cultivated and the environmental damage this method has as opposed to whether it is hybrid or OP IMHO !

On the otherhand FI seed is generally bred for commercial growers to suit their needs rather than backyard growers so does it taste as good ?

"The federal government has sponsored research that has produced a tomato that is perfect in every respect, except that you can't eat it. We should make every effort to make sure this disease, often referred to as "progress" doesn't spread !" - Andy Rooney

I believe I know the answer, working as a chef I'm hired for my palate as much as the technical skills I possess and I pride myself on seeking out quality produce from local growers... but taste is subjective and not everyone has such highly tuned palates. So grow it, cook it and eat it. The proof is in the pudding as they say.   

cheers for now J