Which Is Worse - And Why?

[Maizefarmer]

2 threads on the front page today, one about giving to beggers and another about paying teamoney - and following on each a range of statements and opinions.

Some folk get hacked off about giving to beggers, some get hacked off about giving to officials, some folk get pissed off with both, whiles others are happy to stomach one or the other (or both) and contrabute.

Speaking for myself, a quick few words with a ex-pat begger should usualy be enough to workout whether or not they're genuine - if they're genuine, yer, in many cases I have given in the past (along with some advice regards how to go about resolving the problem), if I think they're talking XXXX - just ignore them. Teamoney - sometimes I pay, sometimes don't. To Westerners many Westerners "teamoney" equals corruption - to Thai's and other Asians (places like China and India), "teamoney" is cultural - it's as much part of doing business as the official payments are. For me its a question of whats reasonable, and whats not e.g. I pay teamoney to get my containers offloaded at Leam Chabang on occassion, only because if I don't it's odd how the crane driver just doesn;t have the time to get it onto a truck when I want it done and I then land up paying storage fees (which will cost more than the teamoney - and he'll make sure it does!). It's no good fighting the system so I build the cost into the business.

By contrast it grates me no end if a cop pulls me over and comes up with some pathetic reason why I need to give him x amount before I can continue with my journey. But whats the difference - is there a difference?

Whats your take on "begging" and "teamoney" - do you see them as been any different, and when do you see the practise(s) as acceptable and when do you see them as unacceptable?

PS - by begging I mean an ex-pat begging, but include locals and make a distinction if you wish

[Chonburiram]

Never seen a farang beggar, but if one approaches me I would offer him an international phone call to ol' mom back home... ( me

holding the phone )

Thai beggars? Blind, old or disabled some coins, not over 10 ฿, young mothers with babies, children or healthy looking men just a glance.

Police or other people doing me a favor, what the going rate is (or after some sweet talk/ negotiation, less than that ).

Mf, would you mind to mention the tea money you pay for a container in Laem Chabang ? ( size or per occasion? )

CB

[wintermute]

A farang beggar in Thailand deserves nothing but a look of contempt.

[Spoonman]

Tea money is worse as i can tell the beggers to go f*%k em self with little repercussions.

[Maizefarmer]

Never seen a farang beggar, but if one approaches me I would offer him an international phone call to ol' mom back home... ( me

holding the phone )

Thai beggars? Blind, old or disabled some coins, not over 10 ฿, young mothers with babies, children or healthy looking men just a glance.

Police or other people doing me a favor, what the going rate is (or after some sweet talk/ negotiation, less than that ).

Mf, would you mind to mention the tea money you pay for a container in Laem Chabang ? ( size or per occasion? )

CB

Varies - around 1500 - 2000. Thats to get the cranedriver to move things along nice a smoothly, so the agent and the truck doesn't sit around all day having his time wasted - when it comes to clearing through customs and sorting out the CIF duties - thats when the fun starts!

What you pay is all about how things are written down i.e the CIF code used and the scope that gives for "revision" - which means how goods are described and what arrangement can be arrived at regards recatorgorising and what that could save you and give the official you are dealing with. Anyhow, theres not to much scope to move figures when it comes to used ag spares and tractors - you're talking about single figure CIF percentages to start with (around 5% - 7% to be exact). What they like to target is one off high value imports, and imports that have high CIF values and lots of applicable CIF descriptions - thats what they like to see. It's no good moaning to the guy behind the desk - "teamoney" goes right up the chain of command to the very top.

[Huey]

Ok Both can be equally valid or ridiculous depending on the scenario. For example, you give to a beggar who when you look at them something in your heart says "that one" then that's just what your supposed to do.

However if there is a beggar and you just feel unmoved or you think it's con then to give them money is ridiculous.

Same goes for tea money. hel_l in some countries *cough*USA*cough* it's called TAX, and if you don't pay it the screw you. In others like say Iraq, you don't pay tax but if you want something done you pay your tea money and your stuff gets taken care of, you get moved up ahead of the crowd and at the end of the day it's money well spent.

However in other countries like say Somalia the corruption is so out of control that you pay pay the bribe one day and it work and next week it's someone else and it's messed up.

[tropo]

Tea money is worse as i can tell the beggers to go f*%k em self with little repercussions.

You're a real nice guy aren't you.

I always give to severely handicapped beggars. I see one guy around here with no lower body at all. I cannot walk past him without offering a donation.

It's incredible that people will leave big tips for lazy staff serving food or whatever, yet balk at the idea of leaving 20 baht for a person in such a state. I consider it a personal duty to help these people if I can.

Paying tea money for whatever is just one of the benefits of living in Thailand. It can save a lot of valuable time and frustration.

Edited December 8, 2009 by tropo

[Harcourt]

Tea money is worse as i can tell the beggers to go f*%k em self with little repercussions.

You're a real nice guy aren't you.

I always give to severely handicapped beggars. I see one guy around here with no lower body at all. I cannot walk past him without offering a donation.

It's incredible that people will leave big tips for lazy staff serving food or whatever, yet balk at the idea of leaving 20 baht for a person in such a state. I consider it a personal duty to help these people if I can.

Paying tea money for whatever is just one of the benefits of living in Thailand. It can save a lot of valuable time and frustration.

Everything he said, I agree with, and in the same vein, Huey's, "... For example, you give to a beggar who when you look at them something in your heart says "that one" then that's just what your supposed to do....".

As to the OP; I think you compare apples to pears. One is a conscience thing, the other a matter of practicality, and each case of either situation needs to be weighed up at the time.

[heykki]

You have to be really, really stupid to give money to beggars. It only makes it worse. You're basically funding their suffering and sponsoring further begging. Thanks guys.

I think it is clear which is worse.

Edited December 9, 2009 by heykki

[timekeeper]

Tea money is worse as i can tell the beggers to go f*%k em self with little repercussions.

You're a real nice guy aren't you.

I always give to severely handicapped beggars. I see one guy around here with no lower body at all. I cannot walk past him without offering a donation.

It's incredible that people will leave big tips for lazy staff serving food or whatever, yet balk at the idea of leaving 20 baht for a person in such a state. I consider it a personal duty to help these people if I can.

Paying tea money for whatever is just one of the benefits of living in Thailand. It can save a lot of valuable time and frustration.

hi Tropo

i agree with you, i always give something to handicapped people who have absolutely no chance of getting any paid work

i give 50 baht to very handicapped, 20 baht to less so but whenever i see that half body guy i give him 100 baht

when you see him he looks like he is standing in a hole

poor bastard.....

i consider all charitable donations as making merit for the next life (when in Rome....)

tea money?, personally i do not approve but i know its a factor in resolving issues quickly in Thailand

[Harcourt]

You have to be really, really stupid to give money to beggars. It only makes it worse. You're basically funding their suffering and sponsoring further begging. Thanks guys.

I think it is clear which is worse.

Bah humbug.

Funding their suffering? Making it worse?

Sponsoring further begging....well, if you save their life, or give a little comfort to their dreadful existance, I suppose you are perpetuating it.

You'd rather they starve to death; end of problem?

By your definition, I'd rather be stupid than mean. For F's sake, what's 20 baht to you?

Bah humbug, Scrooge.

[heykki]

Harcourt, you should know that most are put on the streets by gangs that also collect majority of the money. People are brought from Burma and Cambodia. The women renting out their children to beg so that some who think they are good-hearted are really just buying the gangs more ice and keeping the business going.

Don't get me wrong, I want to help the suffering. Previously mentioned, however, is not the right way to do it. I will give my pennies to helping organizations.

Edited December 9, 2009 by heykki

[timekeeper]

Harcourt, you should know that most are put on the streets by gangs that also collect majority of the money. People are brought from Burma and Cambodia. The women renting out their children to beg so that some who think they are good-hearted are really just buying the gangs more ice and keeping the business going.

Don't get me wrong, I want to help the suffering. Previously mentioned, however, is not the right way to do it. I will give my pennies to helping organizations.

any idea how much of your penny actually goes to the needy and how much goes to support the ''administration'' of the charity organisations?

[flemmie]

My wife tries to make a difference to the needy with the American Women's club and I can assure you that all funds go to the needy, the administration is done by volunteers.

The problem of gangs is in every country, therefore I support through organizations. This does not stop me from giving also on the street.

[GuestHouse]

At last 'Beggars' again.......

And once again evidence of just how low down in the gutter of life some around here have to look before they can find someone they can actually look down upon.

[JayF]

I just posted this on the other thread mentioned, but it's probably more relevant here:

"I'm curious, does the problem of begging and low end scamming seem to be getting better or worse with time, i.e. over the last 10-20 years? As the country develops are there any services coming out to help support these people? Or is it getting worse as more and more tourists and expats come to Thailand making it easier to make a living this way?"

The same questions could be asked of tea money and outright corruption.

[Scott]

In my opinion there is less begging, but no less corruption. Begging seems to come and go--at times there is an increase, probably due to organized begging and then a crackdown. There is also more foreign beggars than before, but fewer Thais.

I don't mind giving to beggars--that is my choice. Tea money often really isn't a choice; it's extortion.

[SaikoIsaan]

I have seen a farang beggar (wearing a suit) once sitting on the street at Sukhumvit. He hold a sign asking for money or work, but no less than 100,000 baht per month. <deleted>? Either it was a pretty cool guy just trying something crazy, not being concerned about what others think about him, or a nutcase. Given the snobbish look he gave me after I looked at him once I read his sign, I suppose he was a nutcase.

I regularly give to (Thai) beggars. Even if some of them work for gangs, obviously it's a human being in misery, and if all it takes me is a couple of baht to "ease the pain", I'm not gonna walk by just because there is a possibility that it will benefit the beggar mafia. For most of what I have seen, giving to charities ends up in the wrong pockets way more often (just look at the brand new shiny Lexus cars that all those NGOs in Cambodia drive).

I think teamoney is worse than (Thai) beggars. But I really wouldn't mind it if I understood it better. The problem is, I have no clue, and would always be concerned if I didn't overpay. lol