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Red Shirt Leaders Flee As Thai Forces Surround Hotel


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You seem to forget he is already in power and has over a year on his term remaining. The only reason for him to go to the polls early is if he wishes to cave in to the demands of mobs on the streets who are funded by an on-the-run criminal. Doesn't seem like a great reason.

Just adding to your interesting and intelligent comment, he would also be following the rather firmly expressed advice of the General Anupong, the Commander of the Royal Thai Army.

You mean the erroneous and misunderstood advice that was retracted and clarified the next day?

Also the view of the highly respected Washington Post which calls for early dissolution

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0041404391.html

But that's a journal in the pay of Thaksin I hear you say.But look the article is clearly anti-Thaksin, a "bad prime minister".It doesn't compute.Whur whur blur blur.

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Also the view of the highly respected Washington Post which calls for early dissolution

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0041404391.html

But that's a journal in the pay of Thaksin I hear you say.But look the article is clearly anti-Thaksin, a "bad prime minister".It doesn't compute.Whur whur blur blur.

Obviously part of the foreign media conspiracy! The Commies have infiltrated the right wing Washington Post!

THE LATEST political crisis in Thailand is a particularly tragic instance of political blowback. Three times in the past four years, Thais opposed to the populist movement of Thaksin Shinawatra precipitated the downfall of democratically elected governments by creating chaos in the streets of Bangkok. Now the current government, backed by that same alliance of the middle class, business and traditional elites, has itself been cornered by the same tactics

...

Last Saturday, the Thai army, which refused to act against the anti-Thaksin "yellow shirts" even when they shut down Bangkok's international airport, tried to disperse the pro-Thaksin "red shirts" from their month-old street camps. The result was the worst political violence in two decades, with 23 protesters and soldiers killed -- and a retreat by the security forces. That leaves the government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva with few options other than what he and his coalition should have embraced in the first place: free elections.

ATTENTION: Siam Shopping Complex OPEN!! Please resume your shopping experience!

Edited by whiterussian
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Arisaman, Arisaman,

Does whatever a spider can

Spins a web, full of lies,

Attracts fools just like flies

Look Out!

Here comes Arisaman.

Is he strong?

Listen bud,

He's got jugs of pigs blood.

Can he swing from a thread

Take a look overhead

Hey, there

There goes the Arisaman.

In the chill of night

At the scene of a crime

Like an urban blight

He arrives just in time.

Arisaman, Arisaman

Frightening neighborhoods Arisaman

Wealth and fame

He's on board

A pardon is his reward.

To him, life is a great big bang up

Whenever there's a hang up

You'll find Arisaman.

:)

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Also the view of the highly respected Washington Post which calls for early dissolution

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0041404391.html

But that's a journal in the pay of Thaksin I hear you say.But look the article is clearly anti-Thaksin, a "bad prime minister".It doesn't compute.Whur whur blur blur.

Washington Post isn't a publication i read and i don't know what their background is in terms of reputation or agenda, but there were some glarringly obvious mistruths in there, as well as some over-simplifications that bordered on child-like.

Here's an example of both:

Mr. Thaksin, who now lives in exile, was a bad prime minister from 2001 to 2006.

It's a mistruth to say that Mr. Thaksin lives in exile and whilst i don't dispute that he was indeed a bad prime minister, it strikes me as being a slightly peculiar turn of phrase to be using with an educated readership.

Here's another mistruth:

After a military coup removed the populist leader in 2006, his supporters easily won the election that was eventually held in December 2007.

Not only did his supporters not win easily, they in fact didn't win at all, otherwise why form a coalition?

And as far as the following statement goes:

That leaves the government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva with few options other than what he and his coalition should have embraced in the first place: free elections.

it's all very well simply saying that the government should have embraced free elections, but is the writer not aware that free elections are virtually impossible at the best of times here, and right now you'd have a snowball in h*lls chance of organising one that wasn't fraught with vote-buying, intimidation and most likely violence. Not saying that that should be used as an indefinite excuse for not having elections - obviously there have to be elections at some point no matter what - but don't pretend that organising elections with the aim for them to be free is an easy or simple matter, because it certainly is not. The complexities that are involved and that are exasperated at the moment mean that other alternatives need to be considered as well.

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If there is only 3 or 4K they should get 50 000 troops

Move in and retake the area

Move in armed to the hilts ... see a red with a weapon

shot him or her on the spot!! We know reds do not play

fair ...

We all know this has no happy ending ... git'er done

Incredible .... Fascisme

You said the right word for it.

You like short answers don't you. Its easier to avoid complexities and un-simple things like 'truth' and 'reality' when you just post a few propagandist words that in situ are meaningless.

Fascism is a big word, and deserves to not be thrown casually around. It is also multifaceted.

Fascism can, for example, be citizen-on-citizen fascism, something that is often overlooked by the Che Guevara-poster-on-the-wall, Crayola colouring-book school of social commentary.

Fascism, for example, might be that inflicted on a little florist lady who owns a small flower-shop in the city, who is trying to pay the rent, feed her kids & pay for their learning etc. when suddenly a gang of drunken yaba-snorting people in red shirts arrive and blockade all the local roads, stop supplies coming in, throw grenades around, tip buckets of HIV+ blood on the pavement, stab un-armed policemen with sharpened sticks, stockpile automatic weapons etc.

From the point of view of the little florist woman, as she watches this horror, and watches her customers vanish, and watches her income vanish for 5 weeks, she is watching a *fascist* red mob of oppressive thugs.

You don't see that though, do you.

Spot on.

Those that oppress by a group with no consideration for others are fascist.

Forcing their will on the defenseless.

As opposed to the public society as a whole reasserting it's earlier decided rule,

on a recalcitrant group, by use of legal force.

One can wish this wasn't necessary, but the law says they CAN stop the oppression of the poor flower lady,

by the large minority group wanting to take over her neighborhood to get their message across.

And lets add they do have a current connection with a later version of traditional power.

fascism

1922, originally used in English 1920 in its Italian form (see fascist).

Applied to similar groups in Germany from 1923; applied to everyone since the rise of the Internet.

"A form of political behavior marked by

obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood

and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity,

in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants,

working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites,

abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence

and

without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

[Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]

Sure sounds more like the red leaders than the Government.

"Fascism is reaction," said Mussolini, but reaction to what?...

The reactionary movement following World War I was based on

a rejection of the social theories that formed the basis of the 1789 French Revolution...

It was Rousseau who is best known for crystallizing these modern social theories...

The progeny of these theories are sometimes called Modernism or Modernity

because they challenged social theories generally accepted since the days of Machiavelli.

The response to the French Revolution and Rousseau, by Hegel, Marx, Nietzsche, and others,

poured into an intellectual stew which served up Marxism, socialism, national socialism,

fascism, modern liberalism, modern conservatism, communism, and a variety of forms

of capitalist participatory democracy....

"Reactionary concepts plus revolutionary emotion result in Fascist mentality."

_Wilhelm Reich....

One element shared by all fascist movements, racialist or not, is the

apparent lack of consistent political principle behind the ideology_

political opportunism in the most basic sense.

One virtually unique aspect of fascism is its ruthless drive to attain and hold state power.

On that road to power, fascists are willing to

abandon any principle to adopt an issue more in vogue and more likely to gain converts....

Edited by animatic
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"A form of political behavior marked by

obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood

and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity,

in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants,

working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites,

abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence

and

without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

[Robert O. Paxton, "The Anatomy of Fascism," 2004]

Sure sounds more like the red leaders than the Government.

[snipped for brevity]

"Reactionary concepts plus revolutionary emotion result in Fascist mentality."

_Wilhelm Reich....

One element shared by all fascist movements, racialist or not, is the

apparent lack of consistent political principle behind the ideology_

political opportunism in the most basic sense.

One virtually unique aspect of fascism is its ruthless drive to attain and hold state power.

On that road to power, fascists are willing to

abandon any principle to adopt an issue more in vogue and more likely to gain converts....

I was going to reply to this, then realized that from my readings of history, this is correct. And, sadly for all sides, history appears to be trying to repeat itself.

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Thanks for the clarification. I'll keep that in mind in the future. I can't be imagining the memory I have of numerous past posts where people have complained they can ONLY post from the Nation. I guess that's where I derived the belief, since nobody ever corrected these other individuals.

Perhaps a more general lesson might be derived?

Indeed.

The way in which FreedomDude was so easily misled into believing something patently untrue simply because certain posters repeated the lie over and over again is very telling.

A lie told often enough, becomes the truth,

for many who don't look in depth and question.

Since there are many that live like this, it is easy to create a false truth by repetition if,

the voices of dissent are shouted down or drowned out by numbers.

Propaganda 101 basic concepts.

Perception Management is based on the concept of determining a preferred 'truth'

and then hammering that message home and hammering down all dissenting voices,

until enough minds actually 'believe the chimera' that was created to serve one parties needs.

If you have enough money you can convince many people to believe what you want them too,

if others are willing to be mute.

Hence goes our Montenegrin friends believing the chimera Thaksin has spun.

Hence the Red Shirts attempts at total information control of Issan.

Remember the movie Brazil. our protagonist worked for The Ministry if Information Retrieval.

A group dedicated to making sure information 'Off Message' was removed from consumption.

Well it need not be a ministry doing this, just deep pockets with a goal.

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"Arrest attempt against UDD leaders at SC Park Hotel on Friday was not considered failure: Metropolitan Police Bureau "

What? I'm baffled as to what would be classified as a failure then. If you don't know what success is how can you expect to achieve it?

Edited by chadintheusa
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"Arrest attempt against UDD leaders at SC Park Hotel on Friday was not considered failure: Metropolitan Police Bureau "

What? I'm baffled as to what would be classified as a failure then. If you don't know what success is how can you expect to achieve it?

If the goal was to show that the Red Shirt leaders are enjoying a diffent level of "sacrifice than the followers, then you could call the raid successful. If the goal was to show the Red Shirts deep ties to Thaksin Shinawatra and how he's emplying his "assets", then I guess you could call the raid successful. If the goal was to show the PTP's deep afilliation with both Thaksin and the UDD leadership, than I guess you could call the raid successful. If the goal was to show that the Police Dept is in collusion with Thaksin, the UDD and the PTP, well then I guess you'd have to call the raid successful. If the goal was to remove the ineffectual Suthep, then I guess you'd have to call the raid succesful. For my part, I can't believe anyone with two brain cells to rub together didn't already know all that, so it reeks of failure to me.

Edited by lannarebirth
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Also the view of the highly respected Washington Post which calls for early dissolution

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0041404391.html

But that's a journal in the pay of Thaksin I hear you say.But look the article is clearly anti-Thaksin, a "bad prime minister".It doesn't compute.Whur whur blur blur.

Washington Post isn't a publication i read and i don't know what their background is in terms of reputation or agenda, but there were some glarringly obvious mistruths in there, as well as some over-simplifications that bordered on child-like.

Here's an example of both:

Mr. Thaksin, who now lives in exile, was a bad prime minister from 2001 to 2006.

It's a mistruth to say that Mr. Thaksin lives in exile and whilst i don't dispute that he was indeed a bad prime minister, it strikes me as being a slightly peculiar turn of phrase to be using with an educated readership.

Here's another mistruth:

After a military coup removed the populist leader in 2006, his supporters easily won the election that was eventually held in December 2007.

Not only did his supporters not win easily, they in fact didn't win at all, otherwise why form a coalition?

And as far as the following statement goes:

That leaves the government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva with few options other than what he and his coalition should have embraced in the first place: free elections.

it's all very well simply saying that the government should have embraced free elections, but is the writer not aware that free elections are virtually impossible at the best of times here, and right now you'd have a snowball in h*lls chance of organising one that wasn't fraught with vote-buying, intimidation and most likely violence. Not saying that that should be used as an indefinite excuse for not having elections - obviously there have to be elections at some point no matter what - but don't pretend that organising elections with the aim for them to be free is an easy or simple matter, because it certainly is not. The complexities that are involved and that are exasperated at the moment mean that other alternatives need to be considered as well.

I hadn't read the article in the link so I went back to check it. :) I would have agreed with Jayboy that the Washington Post is a 'highly respected' publication.... Until I read that appalling article.

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"Arrest attempt against UDD leaders at SC Park Hotel on Friday was not considered failure: Metropolitan Police Bureau "

What? I'm baffled as to what would be classified as a failure then. If you don't know what success is how can you expect to achieve it?

My guess is they are referring to the large 'incentive' they received to mount an unsuccessful raid, in this respect it was a resounding success, no-one else could have failed to the degree to which they succeeded in doing. True professionals in the real sense of the word.

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As I said in the other closed thread....

Don't any of the security forces own a Helicopter???

Why wasn't the arrest and capture carried out by landing a Helicopter on the Roof???

Why weren't these guys taken out by AIR so as to avoid any confrontation with the crowd?

Why aren't all these incompetent watermelons FIRED immediately???

CS

Yeah, equipment for civil disobedience is lacking in modern stuff, not a patch on the German type gear in Indo,the whole charade is now looking more like the old Carry On movies from UK.

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Getting back to the actual video

The guy in the plastic English police hat is priceless.

I can just see the Advert.

Camping out with your red mates for 2 weeks + 600 THB per day.

Shutting major hotels and shopping malls down 20 Billion THB per day.

Loss of tourism and confidence in Thailand unknown and unaccountable.

Wearing a plastic English police hat on international Television in front of millions while rescuing your mate PRICELESS.

Edited by nickynomatesbkk
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What I find amazing is that in an article I read today, a woman makes some interesting statements as to how comfortable it is. Food is great, there are even showers and loos - plus of course she earns more money than if she was working...... medical assistance is of course provided ....

No wonder they don't want to leave their cozy camp!!!!

Suggestion to the military:

Make it less comfortable for them and a lot will leave

Helicopter passing over a few times a day dropping tear gas - during night time drop tear gas and shock grenades every hour and a lot of them will leave without bloodshed than mop up the rest with deployment of CS gas and troops

Edited by BKjohn
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As I said in the other closed thread....

Don't any of the security forces own a Helicopter???

Why wasn't the arrest and capture carried out by landing a Helicopter on the Roof???

Why weren't these guys taken out by AIR so as to avoid any confrontation with the crowd?

Why aren't all these incompetent watermelons FIRED immediately???

CS

Did you see the list of captured weapons?

One of them was an anti-aircraft gun. Maybe they are afraid of being shot down.

Come on, why would the army bring in anti-aircraft guns to control protesters? Don't tell me the red protesters have F16 fighter jets?

I think he meant the protesters were caught with anti-aircraft guns (source please?)

Anti-aircraft guns? Lost? Oh, come on.

http://bangkoklibrary.com/content/397-anti...lity-questioned

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0041404391.html

But that's a journal in the pay of Thaksin I hear you say.But look the article is clearly anti-Thaksin, a "bad prime minister".It doesn't compute.Whur whur blur blur.

Washington Post isn't a publication i read and i don't know what their background is in terms of reputation or agenda, but there were some glarringly obvious mistruths in there, as well as some over-simplifications that bordered on child-like.

Here's an example of both:

Mr. Thaksin, who now lives in exile, was a bad prime minister from 2001 to 2006.

It's a mistruth to say that Mr. Thaksin lives in exile and whilst i don't dispute that he was indeed a bad prime minister, it strikes me as being a slightly peculiar turn of phrase to be using with an educated readership.

Here's another mistruth:

After a military coup removed the populist leader in 2006, his supporters easily won the election that was eventually held in December 2007.

Not only did his supporters not win easily, they in fact didn't win at all, otherwise why form a coalition?

And as far as the following statement goes:

That leaves the government of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva with few options other than what he and his coalition should have embraced in the first place: free elections.

it's all very well simply saying that the government should have embraced free elections, but is the writer not aware that free elections are virtually impossible at the best of times here, and right now you'd have a snowball in h*lls chance of organising one that wasn't fraught with vote-buying, intimidation and most likely violence. Not saying that that should be used as an indefinite excuse for not having elections - obviously there have to be elections at some point no matter what - but don't pretend that organising elections with the aim for them to be free is an easy or simple matter, because it certainly is not. The complexities that are involved and that are exasperated at the moment mean that other alternatives need to be considered as well.

I hadn't read the article in the link so I went back to check it. :) I would have agreed with Jayboy that the Washington Post is a 'highly respected' publication.... Until I read that appalling article.

I don't think it's an article ... someone forgot to include (advertisement)

Edited by BKjohn
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good on them

shame on you

another red shirted bleeding heart who thinks lawlessness, murder and bully boy intimidation is acceptable

Shame on YOU for keeping your eyes CLOSED to what is happening, but then the news is censored by the Government!

Please read this article by a Thai in exile: Trust it does not breach Thai Visa rules if so my apologies to Admin. ( I have deleted and edited some words that I thought may breach your rules.)

Thailand: Seeing through the Mist of Tear Gas by Giles Ji Ungpakorn

After the recent bloodshed on the streets of Bangkok, the army, the government, and the media, academics, and NGOs who have sided with the elites, especially those who deceitfully call themselves "neutral," are all trying to distort the major facts about what is happening in Thailand.

Together with the blanket censorship ordered by the government, this distortion is like firing a second round of tear gas at the population in order to cause confusion. So let us just remind ourselves of the basics. The first basic point is that any government that sends soldiers armed with M16 automatic weapons, live ammunition, and tanks, in order to disperse a peaceful and disciplined demonstration, has already decided on the option of using lethal force against the demonstrators. This is an undeniable fact whether or not the soldiers also carry shields and rubber bullets and whether or not the soldiers initially fire live rounds into the air. In the inevitable situation of stress and tension, the soldiers will start firing live ammunition against civilians and they have indeed done this. It is also true that this will occur whether or not there are some mysterious black-clad figures running around. These could be special military forces, people hoping to stimulate a bloody crackdown, or some other group.

Whatever the case, these people had no connection with the UDD who have repeatedly restrained their supporters. The UDD stored captured weapons so that they would not be used, and, in contrast to the behavior of the army, any captured soldiers were well treated. Let us be clear. When the army bring lethal weapons of war and station snipers on high buildings, they are already intent on the option of killing civilians. Machine guns and tanks are not brought on to the streets to cook noodles, show off to tourists, or repair the roads. In most civilized democracies, the streets are cleared of demonstrators, whether legitimately or not, by the use of riot police and mass arrests, not by systematic use of weapons of war.

The Abhisit Government and its military backers were therefore intent on killing civilians. This is, of course, nothing new in Thailand. In the last 40 years military have gunned down and murdered unarmed civilian demonstrations six times. Five of these bloodbaths occurred in Bangkok in 1973, 1976, 1992, 2009, and now in 2010. The sixth occasion was in the South at Takbai in 2004. It is a matter of great urgency that democratic and human rights standards are established in Thailand to deal with this. Certain figures, politicians, and generals have to be publically punished if found guilty. The entire military command needs to be retired and the army has to be drastically reduced in terms of budgets, numbers, and influence.

The deceitful so-called "neutral" academics and NGOs, who claim that "both sides should take responsibility for the bloodshed," are merely reducing the responsibility of the government, the oppressor. It is like saying that both the elephant and the ant are "responsible" for the ant being crushed to death under the elephant's giant foot, just because the ant was in the wrong place. On the one hand we have the military-backed government and its armed forces trying to crush a democratic protest with lethal weapons. On the other hand we have thousands of unarmed and disciplined protesters. It should not be hard to see the difference, unless of course you backed the 2006 coup (however reluctantly) and you backed the semi-fascist PAD Yellow Shirts. This is what nearly all these so-called neutrals did.

The semi-fascist PAD Yellow Shirts used weapons and violent tactics to wreck Government House, to prevent the opening of an elected parliament, and to make the extremely damaging seizure and closure of Suvarnabhumi International Airport in 2008.

They have not been punished because the military and Abhisit's Democrat Party support them. In contrast, the Red Shirts have occupied some roads in Bangkok. They have not shot anyone or destroyed buildings. Yet the government is manufacturing lies about "Red Shirt Terrorists." Previously they lied about troops "not using lethal weapons on civilians."

The second basic point is that the Abhisit Goverment was never democratically elected. It is in power because of a military coup in 2006, two judiciary coups, the PAD violence, and the maneuverings of the military. Abhisit's Democrat Party can never hope to win an overall majority in any future election and in the past it has never won such an election. It can only cling to power by the use of the military and blanket censorship which is turning Thailand into a Police State. So the Red Shirt demand for the government to resign and for immediate democratic elections is totally legitimate. Their long drawn-out protest in the streets is totally legitimate. The use of a state of emergency and the military by the government to shut the mouths of the Red Shirt protesters, and to arrest their leaders, is totally illegitimate. The military Constitution and the "law" that Abhisit keeps talking about are totally illegitimate.

There are many people who say that democratic elections will not solve the crisis. They are probably right. But this is only because the military, the middle classes, the PAD, the academics, the NGOs, and the Democrat Party are not committed to respecting the majority vote and democracy. They firmly believe, like all supporters of dictatorships, that the Thai electorate is "unqualified to be given a free vote."

The third basic point is about the accusation that the Red Shirts are "committing treason," revolting against the nation. Let us just remind ourselves who should hold absolute power in a democracy. It is the people. The Red Shirts are defending that power. The government, the military, and its supporters are committing treason against the people. It is as simple as that.

The Abhisit government must resign now. The military must return to barracks and the people should decide the future of Thai society.

Absolutely spot on...an excellent, convincing and fair analysis...I must admit to being tricked by all the government talk of terrorists....but of course the red-shirts demonstrated peacefully for a month...when the troops rolled in the trouble started...thank you for opening my eyes

"Peaceful and friendly" ?

Pull the other one: the Red Shirts are ARMED and VIOLENT and everyone knows that.

BTW: What acts of violence did the Yellow Shirts ever commit? Only the ones that the Reds and their fellow travellers say they did.

Former BOT Governor Puey Ungaporn would be ashamed of his son's serial intellectual dishonesty.

Edited by RandyWhite
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THis sort of action by the Thai "authorities" - who are clearly acting on the orders of a political party - the Democrats - just brings into the open how UNDEMOCRATIC the current order is - how can a political party order the arrest of demonstrators? - However it is presented - using terms like "terrorism" or "ill-intentioned" it does not look good to the world that those clearly involved in political protest are being pursued as criminals - this is simply not how democratic governments operate and is a paper-thin ruse.

Come and live with me for a week in Rajaprasong, and I swear you'll be calling for someone to exterminate them after a few nights without sleep.

i've just spent a week in Udon actually, but you like so many others on thaivisa make huge and inaccurate assumptions about possible partisan leanings which I can only conclude come from either not really reading my post or simply being unable to take a step back and see what is really happening.

i really am shocked by the low level of critical thinking shown by many of the posters on this site - I thought there would be some dispassionate discussion and serious anaysis of the situation but it just doesn't seem that posters here are interested in that at all - they just want to spout partisan clap-trap ad infinitem.

Edited by Deeral
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One dead

and the peaceful rally shooting homemade rockets at helicopters.

It's hitting the Fan... are these guys leading from the front... doubt it.

I wonder what little Bolt Hole these Red Leaders will squirrel off to tonight?

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