More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[webfact]

More bloodshed as red siege continues

By PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK

THE NATION

Jaran warns conflict will last for years, but poll backs crackdown

BANGKOK: -- "Today more blood will be shed," Pongamporn Bandasak, the red-shirt community radio host at FM101.25 was heard saying at 6am yesterday. I had tuned in to the station at home after a long night of off-and-on fighting and killing at various spots around Bangkok that saw real bullets used by soldiers and M79 grenades fired by unidentified assailants.

The beginning of an undeclared civil war in Bangkok continued as dawn broke. A radio listener called in to say the situation was like a coup, with soldiers shooting at protesters.

"The Democrat Party is plunging Thailand deeper into the abyss," the caller said. "The use of force like this is out of time and place."

The 24-hour casualty toll as of 6am was 10 dead and 135 wounded - and rising. As the two voices discussed whether the red shirts were winning or not, I began wondering how many more lives would be lost before this will end. Should we keep counting the death toll and coldly watching it rise like a barometer?

By 1.15pm the official death toll had reached 17, but the red shirts claimed seven more (24) had been killed. Natthawut Saikua went on the main stage at Rajprasong for a press conference to call for an immediate ceasefire.

"Stop shooting, retreat and we can then negotiate," Natthawut said. Asked by a journalist why he was not ordering the red shirts to stop attacking first, he angrily retorted: "The killers must stop. You cannot possibly expect those being hunted to stop killing. It's as if the red shirts have been abandoned alone in the world."

The facts were 17 had been killed and they were all civilians. By evening, one more death was reported - that of an emergency rescue worker. The response by the government's Centre for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation (CRES) came late in the afternoon. CRES officials said the high death toll was a result of reds shooting one another and the government faced the threat of political order being overthrown.

On Thursday evening I met red-shirt leader Jaran Ditta-apichai behind at the main stage at Rajprasong, talking to a handful of academics and activists sympathetic to the red-shirt cause.

"Thai politics will no longer be the same no matter whether we win or lose. The good old days are gone. A society of reconciliation is gone," Jaran said.

The current political struggle will continue for at least five years, he predicted.

"And the nature of the struggle will no longer be the same," he said, without clearly explaining how it will differ.

"Those who think that if we were to suddenly return home that there would be reconciliation would be naïve. They will follow and crush us. The fight has been raging for four years now, so how can it easily end? The longer we stay the more we risk being arrested. But once we have decided to join the fight, things will be tough. We may fight for another two years, three years or 10 years and must be willing to sacrifice - be arrested or killed."

By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought.

Many families are deeply divided by the current political crisis. Yesterday, a woman whose mother lives near Silom said her mother spent Friday locked up fearing for her safety as clashes went on all night.

"Mom said the real situation was worse than what the media reported. She said [PM] Abhisit is cruel, but I think she misunderstood things," said the middle-aged woman, who apparently supported the military crackdown.

-- The Nation 2010-05-16

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[humfurry]

It would be nice to have a real TV news station in Bkk.

[mccw]

so the army is still just surrounding them and not actually going in to the red camp. The reds are coming out to attack the army. What do they expect to happen to them? fair enough i say; cnn now say army is being attacked by gun and grenade, fair enough, the more terrorist they kill now the less to make trouble later! red leader should let all the kids out and stop to use them as shield; cowardly scum bags.

[pontius]

The reds should have gone home while they had a good enough "victory" in their pocket, but instead, the greedy cretins valued the potential content in their pockets higher than the life of their ignorant supporters.

Nobody (except the red manipulators themselves) wants dead Thais in the streets, but this will never end unless those cowards that use women and children as human shields are stopped.

[LuckyLew]

So do you think anyone actually believes that because you show some random bloody pictures you have proven that reds aren't armed?

I think there is no doubt Seh Daeng was not armed......but I guess for some on this forum as long as 100 are armed the other 10,000 are asking to be shot.....I used this word on another thread

Hypocrites....

Just a tad slanted

"real bullets used by soldiers and M79 grenades fired by unidentified assailants."

This article should have clearly been marked "opinion" as it cannot be classified

as objective journalism

[ThaiFelix]

"Stop shooting, retreat and we can then negotiate," Natthawut said. Asked by a journalist why he was not ordering the red shirts to stop attacking first, he angrily retorted: "The killers must stop. You cannot possibly expect those being hunted to stop killing. It's as if the red shirts have been abandoned alone in the world."

Derrr, do you think that might be because the redshirts are in the minority and because of the actions they have taken???

[ferd54]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

Edited May 16, 2010 by ferd54

[Abrak]

In my view the support for the Reds hardline stance is limited.

However Thais deplore the military shooting other Thais.

Actually I suspect that they would accept it, if the military action actually achieved anything and restored order but so far that has not been the case.

[mccw]

black shirt firing grenade launcger:

http://serithai.net/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22916

get as many of them now as possable so they cant dissapear and continue terrorist attacks in the future

[Ulysses G.]

The reds should have gone home while they had a good enough "victory" in their pocket

Very true.

[humfurry]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

It would be difficult to judge the poll without knowing what questions we asked in the poll.

Were they asked if they wanted the Reds to go home.

Where they asked if they approved the use of live rounds.

Were they asked if they thought the reds should stay.

It's just that you can get the results you want in a poll just by the way a question is asked.

I usually avoid polls because of this... it's a bit like "pop democracy"

Edited May 16, 2010 by humfurry

[Robby nz]

Their departure also made the red-shirt leaders uneasy. Jatuporn Promphan realised the absence of the media was a bad sign. "Without them, who will guarantee the safety of our protesters?"

So they wanted the journalists there as human shields for the human shields, would seem that sometimes Jutaporn comes close to telling the truth

[pontius]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

I was surprised by the word "disturbing" myself, but for the rest, you couldn't be wronger. It does not show strong support, it shows that not even half the population(*) is against moving them out by force.

Edit: (*) - The poll-pulation, of course.

Edited May 16, 2010 by pontius

[mccw]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

the other percentages would also prefer negotiation, no opinion ands such, to say the other 49% support the red side would be a leap of imajination.

[maccaroni man]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

as the guy said the other 49% is unknown but given normal stats it would be safe to say 25% for the reds which imho is a far cry from the amount needed to call the reds a grass root movement that seeks justice for all. now that bullets are flying the 500b a day reds are staying away, as they well should which goes to show if there is no money there is no honey. the reds have a cause but it has been lost in their own greed and lack of good judgment by it's leaders.

[KireB]

So do you think anyone actually believes that because you show some random bloody pictures you have proven that reds aren't armed?

I think there is no doubt Seh Daeng was not armed......but I guess for some on this forum as long as 100 are armed the other 10,000 are asking to be shot.....I used this word on another thread

Hypocrites....

Just a tad slanted

"real bullets used by soldiers and M79 grenades fired by unidentified assailants."

This article should have clearly been marked "opinion" as it cannot be classified

as objective journalism

Aahh, the fake reds ofcourse!

As both CNN and BBC are reporting: there are different factions within Thaksin's movement, from feetclapping old ladies to paramilltary killers!

[SICA]

The troops should storm the Rajdaprasong site, clear up the women and children, put them in fortified buses and ship them to outlying provinces to 'process' before then shipping them home.

Then we'll see just how unarmed the protestors are.

My symapthies are for the emergency workers now. Soldiers join the army, mostly voluntary. The protesters knew what they were getting in to. The ER workers didn't ask for any of this.

It needs sorting now. The army needs to go in hard and end it now or Abhisit needs to pack up and leave with his tail firmly between his legs.

[Ulysses G.]

The protesters totally f__ked up. By rejecting a sincere peace deal, they have brought this on themselves. Let's just hope that the women and children are allowed to leave and somehow this ends without too much loss of life.

[JRinger]

It is just illogical thinking to guess that the reds will just simply go home now and it will be fine.

Too many people have been assassinated by orders of the Thai Elite.

The people on all sides have either seen it or will see it as the media stuff we see trickles out to the Thai population.

They will see the few of Thai army snipers shooting down unarmed Thai civilians.

They will see over and over the few of the Thai General being shot in the head by another of the regime's assassins.

NO NO NO--the fight is not over.

This fight is going to go on and on and on.

All the reds lack now is the understanding of what must be done now.

They must answer violence with violence.

They must follow assassinations with assassinations of those on the other side.

If need be, they must take to asking for help from outside.

They must tell their young in the military to come fight wearing black.

I do not think it will take 5 years or 3.

This fight will end in a bloody French like revolution unless the idiots on the elite side wise up.

There is NO chance of that so the Battle of Bangkok has likely begun.

Banks will be attacked and burned down.

The airport will be wrecked and closed down.

This place will end up looking like Beirut after its war.

War is hel_l and Bangkok is now where Satin is partying.

Wow talk about a half-empty glass !!

[bluesmith]

51%- 49%= civil war

[SICA]

It is just illogical thinking to guess that the reds will just simply go home now and it will be fine.

Too many people have been assassinated by orders of the Thai Elite.

The people on all sides have either seen it or will see it as the media stuff we see trickles out to the Thai population.

They will see the few of Thai army snipers shooting down unarmed Thai civilians.

They will see over and over the few of the Thai General being shot in the head by another of the regime's assassins.

NO NO NO--the fight is not over.

This fight is going to go on and on and on.

All the reds lack now is the understanding of what must be done now.

They must answer violence with violence.

They must follow assassinations with assassinations of those on the other side.

If need be, they must take to asking for help from outside.

They must tell their young in the military to come fight wearing black.

I do not think it will take 5 years or 3.

This fight will end in a bloody French like revolution unless the idiots on the elite side wise up. - How do they 'wise-up'? What do they need to do?

There is NO chance of that so the Battle of Bangkok has likely begun.

Banks will be attacked and burned down.

The airport will be wrecked and closed down.

This place will end up looking like Beirut after its war.

War is hel_l and Bangkok is now where Satin is partying.

Did somebody get out of the wrong side of bed this morning?

[Abrak]

51%- 49%= civil war

I do believe that 18.4% were concerned that the military crackdown might adversely affect the traffic situation in Bangkok.

[mccw]

It is just illogical thinking to guess that the reds will just simply go home now and it will be fine.

Too many people have been assassinated by orders of the Thai Elite.

The people on all sides have either seen it or will see it as the media stuff we see trickles out to the Thai population.

They will see the few of Thai army snipers shooting down unarmed Thai civilians.

They will see over and over the few of the Thai General being shot in the head by another of the regime's assassins.

NO NO NO--the fight is not over.

This fight is going to go on and on and on.

All the reds lack now is the understanding of what must be done now.

They must answer violence with violence.

They must follow assassinations with assassinations of those on the other side.

If need be, they must take to asking for help from outside.

They must tell their young in the military to come fight wearing black.

I do not think it will take 5 years or 3.

This fight will end in a bloody French like revolution unless the idiots on the elite side wise up.

There is NO chance of that so the Battle of Bangkok has likely begun.

Banks will be attacked and burned down.

The airport will be wrecked and closed down.

This place will end up looking like Beirut after its war.

War is hel_l and Bangkok is now where Satin is partying.

so long as the army keeps it together, which i think it will, there will be no civil war; maybe a prolonged terrostist campaign of bombings like that which we've had the last 2 months, this will only strengthen opposition of the general populase and isolate the reds futher. just a shame these greedy fools a prepared to wreck their own countrys ecconomy for no good reason. well industry will likely continue, but tourism will be dessimated, farmers would continue to be poor no matter what system of government was in place, suficiency farming and dhama would be a more likely to lead to happiness

[Who, me ?]

51%- 49%= civil war

What a stupid conclusion

[Koh_Falang]

"Stop shooting, retreat and we can then negotiate," Natthawut said. Asked by a journalist why he was not ordering the red shirts to stop attacking first, he angrily retorted: "The killers must stop. You cannot possibly expect those being hunted to stop killing. It's as if the red shirts have been abandoned alone in the world."

Derrr, do you think that might be because the redshirts are in the minority and because of the actions they have taken???

LOL i was about to comment about the same thing...

just go home... no one is stopping you going home... Yes you've been abandoned, no one wants to be associated with what you are doing!!! Democracy, yes.. violence, no....

They need to go in with dirty big armoured water tanks and just ram through all the blockades... THey need to hose the crap out of that stage too...

[looping]

It's strange how the international media always seem to leave out the 'Thaksin link' when they report on this. It's such an important piece in the puzzle that to me it even feels suspicious that they don't mention this, almost like he's greased a few palms in the west (oh it does happen!). Instead they talk about the 'rural poor' versus the 'elite', and associate the word democracy with the very people who ruin the very idea by happily selling their vote fot the price of a couple of beers!

I think that the bbc/cnn and the rest of these 'non-biased' organisations should get to the real truth which is far more interesting than the story which they're currently reporting.

Why don't they ask the red shirts how much they're getting paid? Ask them why they think Thaksin is so great and what he could do for the country should he return. Ask them how they think that Thaksin, as a convicted criminal, could possibly plan to be taken seriously by the international community, should he manage to bully his way back into office.

Ask them why they are using women and children as a human shield.

Ask them why they risk their lives for a greedy evil billionaire?

Why can't the press get an interview with Thaksin? A few well placed questions will simply destroy him.

Why don't the international media do their job rather than appearing to be the heroes in the danger zone, reporting alongside the red-shirt 'freedom fighters'?

My point? It appears that Thaksin has more than just a few red-shirts in his back pocket!!!

[rogerdee123]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

I was surprised by the word "disturbing" myself, but for the rest, you couldn't be wronger. It does not show strong support, it shows that not even half the population(*) is against moving them out by force.

Edit: (*) - The poll-pulation, of course.

Yes indeed I think 51 percent would REALLY win an election in Thailand ... instead of all these false claims about how 40% in a previous election is a majority.

[lazygourmet]

It's strange how the international media always seem to leave out the 'Thaksin link' when they report on this. It's such an important piece in the puzzle that to me it even feels suspicious that they don't mention this, almost like he's greased a few palms in the west (oh it does happen!). Instead they talk about the 'rural poor' versus the 'elite', and associate the word democracy with the very people who ruin the very idea by happily selling their vote fot the price of a couple of beers!

I think that the bbc/cnn and the rest of these 'non-biased' organisations should get to the real truth which is far more interesting than the story which they're currently reporting.

Why don't they ask the red shirts how much they're getting paid? Ask them why they think Thaksin is so great and what he could do for the country should he return. Ask them how they think that Thaksin, as a convicted criminal, could possibly plan to be taken seriously by the international community, should he manage to bully his way back into office.

Ask them why they are using women and children as a human shield.

Ask them why they risk their lives for a greedy evil billionaire?

Why can't the press get an interview with Thaksin? A few well placed questions will simply destroy him.

Why don't the international media do their job rather than appearing to be the heroes in the danger zone, reporting alongside the red-shirt 'freedom fighters'?

My point? It appears that Thaksin has more than just a few red-shirts in his back pocket!!!

Excellent post!

[humfurry]

It's strange how the international media always seem to leave out the 'Thaksin link' when they report on this. It's such an important piece in the puzzle that to me it even feels suspicious that they don't mention this, almost like he's greased a few palms in the west (oh it does happen!). Instead they talk about the 'rural poor' versus the 'elite', and associate the word democracy with the very people who ruin the very idea by happily selling their vote fot the price of a couple of beers!

I think that the bbc/cnn and the rest of these 'non-biased' organisations should get to the real truth which is far more interesting than the story which they're currently reporting.

Why don't they ask the red shirts how much they're getting paid? Ask them why they think Thaksin is so great and what he could do for the country should he return. Ask them how they think that Thaksin, as a convicted criminal, could possibly plan to be taken seriously by the international community, should he manage to bully his way back into office.

Ask them why they are using women and children as a human shield.

Ask them why they risk their lives for a greedy evil billionaire?

Why can't the press get an interview with Thaksin? A few well placed questions will simply destroy him.

Why don't the international media do their job rather than appearing to be the heroes in the danger zone, reporting alongside the red-shirt 'freedom fighters'?

My point? It appears that Thaksin has more than just a few red-shirts in his back pocket!!!

Excellent post!

Couldn't agree more..

[Xangsamhua]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

It would be difficult to judge the poll without knowing what questions we asked in the poll.

Were they asked if they wanted the Reds to go home.

Where they asked if they approved the use of live rounds.

Were they asked if they thought the reds should stay.

It's just that you can get the results you want in a poll just by the way a question is asked.

I usually avoid polls because of this... it's a bit like "pop democracy"

The Dusit polls can be examined here: http://dusitpoll.dusit.ac.th/

Unfortunately in Thai only.

The new poll referred to in the article is not up on the website yet.