A Strange Story From Two 10 Year Old Novices.

[bow]

I spend a lot of time in a large village in central Thailand. A pair of 10 year-old twin boys that I know well entered a local temple as novices in April.

They went trough all the usual ceremonies and ended up with shaved heads and orange robes. They live with the other novices in a building in a remote corner of the tempel.

The boys told me a strange story about life in the novice building. They say that the older novices beat up the new young novices. They get plenty of food, but some of the things the boys tell seem to belong in a story about life in a 19th century English boarding school.

This is very far from my ideas of life in a Thai buddist temple. I hope the boys were just making fun of me and making up stories that are not true.

[sabaijai]

Have you thought about telling their abbot what they told you?

[boRED]

I spend a lot of time in a large village in central Thailand. A pair of 10 year-old twin boys that I know well entered a local temple as novices in April.

They went trough all the usual ceremonies and ended up with shaved heads and orange robes. They live with the other novices in a building in a remote corner of the tempel.

The boys told me a strange story about life in the novice building. They say that the older novices beat up the new young novices. They get plenty of food, but some of the things the boys tell seem to belong in a story about life in a 19th century English boarding school.

This is very far from my ideas of life in a Thai buddist temple. I hope the boys were just making fun of me and making up stories that are not true.

please send details of temple to cittadhammo he is a farang monk and can check for you

Edited June 7, 2010 by camerata
Email address removed as per forum rules. PM the member for it.

[eggomaniac]

Bow,

You would be well advised to make sure the boys and, especially, their parents are consulted before 'reporting' anything to anyone.

Did they say or imply they wanted you to go to bat for them?

Not everyone in an orange robe is a 'saint' ;there have been many news stories of 'monks' committing crimes and my Thai brother in laws told me stories of monks who have wigs and regular clothing who go partying at night.

So, it would not be impossible some abuse is occuring, and maybe? the boys had no recourse but to tell you. Why would they not tell their parents?

I'm just worried that it could break out into a Hatfield and McCoy thing. if the allegations come off as 'unproven', even if true, it worrisome what the parents of the older boys might resort to.

[Brucenkhamen]

Boys will be boys. I'd expect a bunch of boys in a monastery to be just like a boarding school. It's unrealistic to expect monk like behaviour from a teenager sent there just to please his parents. Personally I think the practice of ordaining children should be banned.

[bow]

I have talked to the boys mother and she says that the twins, and some other novices, have been "transferred" to a temple in another province. I don't know if this is connected to the stories the boys told me.

It is difficult to reach the boys' new temple using public transport. You would probably have to go all the way down to Bangkok and then go out again. It is not possible to go there and back again in one day, you would have to stay the night and go back the next day.

[eggomaniac]

Boys will be boys. I'd expect a bunch of boys in a monastery to be just like a boarding school. It's unrealistic to expect monk like behaviour from a teenager sent there just to please his parents. Personally I think the practice of ordaining children should be banned.

EGGsactly! I once Posted this same opinion and people got all bent of shape like it was some kind of attack. I congratulate the Mods for allowing discussion of a 'potential' problem. Children can't drive cars, drink in bars, vote, join the military; however they can become monks. < That is puzzling.

I have talked to the boys mother and she says that the twins, and some other novices, have been "transferred" to a temple in another province. I don't know if this is connected to the stories the boys told me.

It is difficult to reach the boys' new temple using public transport. You would probably have to go all the way down to Bangkok and then go out again. It is not possible to go there and back again in one day, you would have to stay the night and go back the next day.

Who knows why they got transferred, maybe even detection had something to do with it? Maybe a 'culture of silence' was broken!?

I feel for your concern, Bow; however if a Thai mother is 'okay' with the circumstances, why would any farang 'put their fingers into it'?

Any 'crusade' to put a dent in child abuse in Thailand would not need to start with complicated bus rides to remote Buddhist temples.

Another 'visible' problem is the child kick boxing 'sport'.

The point is, there are children being abused right under everyone's noses with no relief in sight. Whatever might or not be happening in cloisters would be a doubly difficult problem to solve. Start with what is in broad daylight, if so inclined to be of assistance, is my suggestion.

--------

Okay, I just thought of this idea. A 'safer' way to develop the 'subject' would to interview several 'alumni', grown men who spent time in the same institutions. One might get a realistic idea of whether there is an endemic problem, or if it is all a 'known' right of passage.

It wasn't that long ago we in the West had deaths and degradation from joining a frat or getting on the high school football team.

Does anybody remember 'frosh day' in high school? Drinking spicy crap and sitting on the electric chair, in the gym, with the school paper taking pictures for the Year Book?

I can only imagine what some Brits had to endure, then inflict when it they were older.

Edited June 8, 2010 by camerata
Off-topic comment about sex trade deleted. The topic is bullying in temples, not secular child abuse.

[bow]

A final comment from me.

I have known both the twins and their mother for several years. Talking with the kids was a normal part of everyday life. I suppose that the very strange feeling of suddenly seeing the kids in orange robes made me forget that "boys will be boys".

I have not taken any sort of action except putting a question (or something) on this forum and I don't think that the forum is widely read among Thai Buddhist monks in rural Thailand.

Now, I will sit back and wait and see if they come back to mum after a couple of weeks, or if they stay in the new temple.

[mizzi39]

Boys will be boys. I'd expect a bunch of boys in a monastery to be just like a boarding school. It's unrealistic to expect monk like behaviour from a teenager sent there just to please his parents. Personally I think the practice of ordaining children should be banned.

I totally agree.

[eggomaniac]

A final comment from me.

I have known both the twins and their mother for several years. Talking with the kids was a normal part of everyday life. I suppose that the very strange feeling of suddenly seeing the kids in orange robes made me forget that "boys will be boys".

I have not taken any sort of action except putting a question (or something) on this forum and I don't think that the forum is widely read among Thai Buddhist monks in rural Thailand.

Now, I will sit back and wait and see if they come back to mum after a couple of weeks, or if they stay in the new temple.

Bow, I sympathise with you, this isn't like the the toddlers we can see on the streets; you know these people as friends. However, I'm glad you see the sense in treading lightly. I can only imagine what unproven allegations could land you.

The only thing I can think of is to try to interview 'grads' in a relaxed setting, maybe say you are doing research for an essay.

From all this distance away, I hoping the lads are not under some kind of undue hardship. I can only imagine your angst is ballooned.

If you get more details, can you let us know?

[evanson]

I'm not sure why most of you are not aware that there are many families who cannot afford to send their children to school, and therefore the local wat is the only chance of their children getting any kind of an education. This has been the norm for decades. What? Have you all been labouring under the delusion that the parents' only motive is for their sons to become good buddhists? Albeit before they have the benefit of any education?

The motive is first and foremost that their sons be educated. The empathy/morality is secondary.

[bina]

husband was a monk's helper when he was young, as were many young boys in his village; he says: boys will be boys. his father also used to beat him up so the local wat was a way to get away for a while. later he was a monk for a year, he liked it, partially because of the meditation and stuff and partially because it filled in his educational blanks as he never even finished 6 th grade properly... learning to read thai properly, and pali, was as important to him as the ritual and practice... and again, he says: boys will be boys, although most thais wont interfere with an other family's problems unless hinted that the help is needed...

bina

israel

[Brucenkhamen]

I'm not sure why most of you are not aware that there are many families who cannot afford to send their children to school, and therefore the local wat is the only chance of their children getting any kind of an education. This has been the norm for decades. What? Have you all been labouring under the delusion that the parents' only motive is for their sons to become good buddhists? Albeit before they have the benefit of any education?

The motive is first and foremost that their sons be educated. The empathy/morality is secondary.

How much does it cost to send children to a public school in Thailand? According to Wikipedia "A free basic education of twelve years is guaranteed by the constitution, and a minimum of nine years' school attendance is mandatory." so these 10 years old's should be getting it for free.

[evanson]

I'm not sure why most of you are not aware that there are many families who cannot afford to send their children to school, and therefore the local wat is the only chance of their children getting any kind of an education. This has been the norm for decades. What? Have you all been labouring under the delusion that the parents' only motive is for their sons to become good buddhists? Albeit before they have the benefit of any education?

The motive is first and foremost that their sons be educated. The empathy/morality is secondary.

How much does it cost to send children to a public school in Thailand? According to Wikipedia "A free basic education of twelve years is guaranteed by the constitution, and a minimum of nine years' school attendance is mandatory." so these 10 years old's should be getting it for free.

The schools are not free. There are 'small' charges together with uniforms and books to be paid for. Many families are on or below the breadline and cannot afford even these expenses. Two of my friends have their sons currently being schooled in wats. Perhaps you could enlighten er, Wikipedia, that fount of truth and knowledge.

[khaowong1]

I'm not sure why most of you are not aware that there are many families who cannot afford to send their children to school, and therefore the local wat is the only chance of their children getting any kind of an education. This has been the norm for decades. What? Have you all been labouring under the delusion that the parents' only motive is for their sons to become good buddhists? Albeit before they have the benefit of any education?

The motive is first and foremost that their sons be educated. The empathy/morality is secondary.

How much does it cost to send children to a public school in Thailand? According to Wikipedia "A free basic education of twelve years is guaranteed by the constitution, and a minimum of nine years' school attendance is mandatory." so these 10 years old's should be getting it for free.

wow, I'm not sure what rock you've been living under in Thailand, but this "12 years is guaranteed and a minumum of 9 years is mandatory" is certainly not the norm where I live. And nothing is free. Their "mandatory" school clothing costs money, their "mandatory school books" cost money and then, there's lunch. Plus a host of other expenses. I have been in Thailand for 4 years and see very few students make it to 9 years. 12 years, very, very few and only those whose parents make a better than decent wage.

[sabaijai]

Wiki is talking about Thai law, which indeed offers those guarantees, put in place by the current administration. Free means 'no tuition.'

[khaowong1]

I'm not sure why most of you are not aware that there are many families who cannot afford to send their children to school, and therefore the local wat is the only chance of their children getting any kind of an education. This has been the norm for decades. What? Have you all been labouring under the delusion that the parents' only motive is for their sons to become good buddhists? Albeit before they have the benefit of any education?

The motive is first and foremost that their sons be educated. The empathy/morality is secondary.

How much does it cost to send children to a public school in Thailand? According to Wikipedia "A free basic education of twelve years is guaranteed by the constitution, and a minimum of nine years' school attendance is mandatory." so these 10 years old's should be getting it for free.

The schools are not free. There are 'small' charges together with uniforms and books to be paid for. Many families are on or below the breadline and cannot afford even these expenses. Two of my friends have their sons currently being schooled in wats. Perhaps you could enlighten er, Wikipedia, that fount of truth and knowledge.

This is a fact. Many rural families can't even afford the very minumum it costs to send there kids to school. We have three "dek wats" (young boys) living at my temple, and we buy their school clothes, their books, feed them, house them and I personally give each boy 20 baht to take to school with him every single day.. These boys are not abused, they are well taken care of. They help do chores around the temple like, emptying trash baskets, sweeping and going on Pindapot with us in the morning. I make sure they are not abused. That's a job I took on personally. They have there own small hut they sleep in and I'm not sure any of their friends have it any better than they do. So if some "dek wats" are being mis-treated at some temple in Thailand, it's because either the abbot is not aware of what's going on or being lied to about what's going on. I'm a Phra Farang and I put up with no crap when it comes to child abuse. I will not stand for it and I will and do make my opinion known to all regardless of how high up on the totem pole he is.

[bow]

There are two groups of boys living in the main temple in my village.

One, smaller group, consists of the "novices" (I don't know if this is the correct word) that are dressed in the usual orange robes, shave their heads regularly and take part in some of the religious duties of the adult monks. These kids live in their own building.

The other, larger group, consists of kids that are dressed in ordinary clothes for Thai children, don't shave their heads and help out in the temple with all sorts of things. These boys don't live in any special building, but sleep where there is room for them, in all sorts of places all over the temple.

The group in orange robes is the high status group and you don't get into that group by being dumped at the temple by some dirt poor parents. The kids must go trough a week-long and quite costly procedure to be accepted into the orange robe group. In my local temple many orange robe kids are sponsored by a group of adults, it's not just a mum and dad thing.

[evanson]

There are two groups of boys living in the main temple in my village.

One, smaller group, consists of the "novices" (I don't know if this is the correct word) that are dressed in the usual orange robes, shave their heads regularly and take part in some of the religious duties of the adult monks. These kids live in their own building.

The other, larger group, consists of kids that are dressed in ordinary clothes for Thai children, don't shave their heads and help out in the temple with all sorts of things. These boys don't live in any special building, but sleep where there is room for them, in all sorts of places all over the temple.

The group in orange robes is the high status group and you don't get into that group by being dumped at the temple by some dirt poor parents. The kids must go trough a week-long and quite costly procedure to be accepted into the orange robe group. In my local temple many orange robe kids are sponsored by a group of adults, it's not just a mum and dad thing.

Oh nice. Very 'Buddhist' (which is another problem I have with the 'karma' thing). So you didn't do anything bad in this life, was an all round good guy and so all the shit that happens to you is 'because you bad in past life'. What a crock.

By the bloody way, the poor kids weren't 'dumped'. Their parents were simply doing the very best for them within the confines of their straitened circumstances. Perhaps they should have been born to the more fiscally advantaged parents? Perhaps Bhuddhism could do with a little more compassion. Which is why I was attracted to it in the first place.

Edited June 16, 2010 by evanson

[sabaijai]

There are two groups of boys living in the main temple in my village.

One, smaller group, consists of the "novices" (I don't know if this is the correct word) that are dressed in the usual orange robes, shave their heads regularly and take part in some of the religious duties of the adult monks. These kids live in their own building.

The other, larger group, consists of kids that are dressed in ordinary clothes for Thai children, don't shave their heads and help out in the temple with all sorts of things. These boys don't live in any special building, but sleep where there is room for them, in all sorts of places all over the temple.

The group in orange robes is the high status group and you don't get into that group by being dumped at the temple by some dirt poor parents. The kids must go trough a week-long and quite costly procedure to be accepted into the orange robe group. In my local temple many orange robe kids are sponsored by a group of adults, it's not just a mum and dad thing.

Oh nice. Very 'Buddhist' (which is another problem I have with the 'karma' thing). So you didn't do anything bad in this life, was an all round good guy and so all the shit that happens to you is 'because you bad in past life'. What a crock.

By the bloody way, the poor kids weren't 'dumped'. Their parents were simply doing the very best for them within the confines of their straitened circumstances. Perhaps they should have been born to the more fiscally advantaged parents? Perhaps Bhuddhism could do with a little more compassion. Which is why I was attracted to it in the first place.

Were you attracted to Buddhism because you wanted to develop compassion yourself? Or to judge other people's compassion?

[bow]

It feels like my thread has got out of hand. I really will stop making comments myself and leave things to people with a real understanding of Buddhism.