Work Permit

[hobbiticus1414]

I have read that if someone tries to work in thailand without a work permit that they can be deported, or fined, or even put in jail for up to 3 month? does that really happen? or what usually happens?

[lopburi3]

Yes. All of the above.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

ain't that the truth

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks to the fine gentlemen, above, who have spoken the truth, according to Thaivisa's policy of never sanctioning the breaking of Thai law.

I have a more specific question. How many cases do you personally know of where somebody with a valid B work visa was deported, fined or jailed simply because they were working as a school teacher in a province where the Ministry of Labour official says they'd never, ever issued a work permit to a teacher?

If that's an unfair question, how about this one: what are the chances of someone with a valid B work visa getting turned in if she or he works as a teacher in a govt. school where the school officials honestly don't know the first thing about helping the teacher get a work permit? This question assumes the teacher doesn't make oneself an enemy of a powerful person in that province.

To conclude the post as politically correct: we are not recommending that anybody violate any law. We are simply asking what the risk is, the likelihood or probability of getting caught, and the likely consequence.

[lopburi3]

The risks are higher than anyone looking to the future in Thailand should be willing to take. Is that politically correct enough?

All it takes is one jealous person to turn such an arrangement into disaster.

[~G~]

I have a more specific question.  How many cases do you personally know of where somebody with a valid B work visa was deported, fined or jailed simply because they were working as a school teacher in a province where the Ministry of Labour official says they'd never, ever issued a work permit to a teacher?

If that's an unfair question, how about this one: what are the chances of someone with a valid B work visa getting turned in if she or he works as a teacher in a govt. school where the school officials honestly don't know the first thing about helping the teacher get a work permit? This question assumes the teacher doesn't make oneself an enemy of a powerful person in that province.

To conclude the post as politically correct: we are not recommending that anybody violate any law.  We are simply asking what the risk is, the likelihood or probability of getting caught, and the likely consequence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If foreigners who actually have WP, paying taxes and being registered at the social security are legally more vulnerable than Thais, what about those that don't?

Why would anyone wishing to stay here for long term put himself in such situation?

[PeaceBlondie]

If foreigners who actually have WP, paying taxes and being registered at the social security are legally more vulnerable than Thais, what about those that don't?

Why would anyone wishing to stay here for long term put himself in such situation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Answering your last question, thousands of people (especially teachers of English who don't have B.Ed. type degrees), come to Thailand wanting to live and work here, and they want to be totally legal. They are not given the chance to get proper visa, proper teaching license, proper work permit. They can't. The Thai law and bureaucracy are too complex and difficult. Their bosses refuse to process the paperwork. Meanwhile, they keep trying to become legal. We have a good poster on here, for whom it about three years to get legal, after three schools lied to him about processing his paperwork. And he was well qualified.

[samran]

Two things:

If your employer does not know/can’t be arsed to get a work permit for you, and if you fancy yourself as slightly intelligent, then it is possible to do it all yourself. I know people who have done it. It takes a little running around and collecting paperwork, the occasional back and forth between departments, but it is do-able. I know people who have done this themselves. Additionally, there is a get a work permit in 10 easy steps guide on this website, plus the forum to help you.

As for the risks? Who knows/cares? One thing they won’t want to know is your sob story when they do pick you up. A good first hand story of being chucked in the IDC is available on Bangkok Mouth. Read on: here

[PeaceBlondie]

Ah, but samran, people have told me all my life, that I'm quite intelligent. However, I only speak two languages, and Thai isn't one of them. I've been using this forum and ajarn.com for two years, and they haven't been enough help. I didn't work in Bangkok; I worked in one of many of the provinces where the MoL folks don't speak English. Furthermore, the employees at the school who would process my paperwork can't figure out how to do it, or are scared to death to do it wrong. I couldn't even get my boss (who's been fluent in English for 20 years, and made almost twice what I did annually, without having to pay 100,000 baht in visa-getting expenses every year) to get a decent, letterhead request from the Director to request a non-immigrant B (she ended up giving me a piece of crap that any 13 year old in Texas could have done on his PC). No, samran, I think you're badly mistaken in many cases. I don't believe it can be done, and I'm weary at the know-it-alls on this forum who think English teachers are too lazy to make the effort. If you came up and helped me, I'll bet we wouldn't get it done in two weeks.

Okay samran and the rest of you who know so much, here's step #1 of the ten steps on the thaivisa.com website:

Step 1:

First, check some basics of your employer. This is the most important!

1. Minimum 2 Million Baht in registered capital per work permit in the company. The best option is that the capital is paid up, not just registrered on paper.

2. Minimum 4 employees per work permit in the company.

3. The Company are paying tax and VAT and have the paper work in order. This is very important. Shady companies with "office in the pocket" is not elligible to apply for a work permit for you!

STOP RIGHT HERE. NONE OF THESE APPLY TO A PUBLIC SCHOOL. NOW SKIP TO THE PARAGRAPH AFTER STEP 7.

If one or more of these basics are missing, forget about work permit !

Period.

See what I mean? The MoL's nice little, bilingual handbook is handy, but it's the same: nothing that pertains to teachers, nothing that could even remotely be considered as relevant to a teacher working in public school.

Edited June 30, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[monty]

Working without the correct paperwork is silly (sorry, stupid!!!)

It is however important to note that when being caught two things are checked.

First: do you have a workpermit?

Second: if not, do you have at least a valid Non-imm. B visa.

If you don't have the non-imm. visa you are in big trouble since you violated both immigration and labour laws (with immigration being the though one).

Major chance of being both deported and blacklisted. (after you payed your fines and/or served jail time)

If you do hold a valid non-imm. B visa, immigration is not involved. They can't even lock you up in the IDC. It's only a matter between you and the labour department, and it seems that in a lot of cases they're more interested in getting you on the right track instead of prosecuting you...

It will depend on circumstances though! Doing volunteer work, teaching in government schools etc. will probably get you of lightly.

If you were however blatantly ignoring regulations for a long time, and so avoiding paying taxes etc., you will be in a lot of legal troubles...

Still, the first sentence i wrote sums it up

[britmaveric]

Black listed would be the worst punishment IMO.

Edited June 30, 2005 by britmaveric

[PeaceBlondie]

Fine. My point among others, is that for MOST teachers who come to Thailand to teach, it's nearly impossible to be legal. Some schools simply admit up front that they can't help with a B visa (although I've been lucky enough to have three one-year visas). Many schools throughout the country (even in Bangkok, from what I've heard from dozens of teachers) say they'll help with visa, TL, WP, etc. - and they don't. They simply don't know how, or can't be bothered, or want to wait until after the probation period, or after the new director arrives, or on and on.

We're not lazy or stupid, and we do try. You may not hear as many stories on thaivisa as you do on the ajarn.com forum, but there are hundreds if not thousands of foreign teachers in Thailand who can't get legal. Cannot, mae dai. The schools do not care; they practice 'mai bpen rai' while their teachers make monthly visa runs. It costs me about 100,000 baht every year for all my visa runs, and I haven't made 300,000 baht in either year. They don't understand, mai kojai, and they don't want to know.

Thailand is a nice place, but it's extremely difficult for foreigners with bachelor's degrees and TEFL certificates to become legal. And that, my friends, is just one big part of 'the problem.'

For what it's worth, I could have come here on a retirement visa from the beginning, and I still could do that. The other men and ladies can't.

it is irritating, really, to hear long-time posters on this forum act as if diligent, intelligent teachers are stupid and lazy. Perhaps you didn't know before. Kojai, chaimai?

[samran]

No, samran, I think you're badly mistaken in many cases.  I don't believe it can be done, and I'm weary at the know-it-alls on this forum who think English teachers are too lazy to make the effort.  If you came up and helped me, I'll bet we wouldn't get it done in two weeks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mate, I am more right than wrong, which is all that counts in life….

Sorry hearing about your hassles PB. Trust me, I know what a Thai government department can be like…..I used to work for one. Dunno if I could come up and help you, in 2 weeks, but I’d guarantee that I’d be able to use a bit of common sense and get you one.

How do I know I it is all possible? Well my former manager, an antipodean, working for the same said government department, managed to get a work permit. He got it, where there was not one member of staff would have a clue on how to get a work permit for him…and trust me, I worked around plenty of clueless government workers.

You are right, most people won’t want to do something out of sheer laziness, or fear of being wrong. So you just bypass them.

What works best, is literally to do it all yourself. Steal some letter head paper, type those letters up yourself, draw up the map of the school and just generally go above peoples heads, don’t rely on anyone to do anything for you. If a letter needs signing, my experience is that people are always happy to sign it if it doesn’t mean they have to write it too. If something needs to be in Thai, you write it in English first, then get one of your more senior students to translate into Thai for an assignment.

Okay samran and the rest of you who know so much, here's step #1 of the ten steps on the thaivisa.com website:

Step 1:

First, check some basics of your employer. This is the most important!

1. Minimum 2 Million Baht in registered capital per work permit in the company. The best option is that the capital is paid up, not just registrered on paper.

2. Minimum 4 employees per work permit in the company.

3. The Company are paying tax and VAT and have the paper work in order. This is very important. Shady companies with "office in the pocket" is not elligible to apply for a work permit for you!

STOP RIGHT HERE.  NONE OF THESE APPLY TO A PUBLIC SCHOOL.  NOW SKIP TO THE PARAGRAPH AFTER STEP 7.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ummm, well, these rules don’t apply to government institutions and State Owned Enterprises. Work permit people will waive them, they should know this, and if they don’t insist on them calling Bangkok, if need be to confirm it. Make it easy for them, take your mobile, find the right number for the MOL in Bangkok and dial it for them.

If I recall correctly from my bosses application, what will be required in place is a management chart of the people who you work for and with, all the way up past the principal, probably up to the head educational honcho in your province. Your contract will also need to be shown, which outlines exactly what your duties and responsibilities will be and how much you will be paid.

If you are going to ask how to get around the language problem, I could be a smart arse and say, learn a bit of Thai. But I won’t. Given that you have lived in the country, I reckon your Thai is better than you think, so you probably have at least some idea of what is going on. Secondly, why not write down a few stock phrases in English, and get someone in the Language Forum to write them in Thai for you. Stuff like :

“As I work for a government school I am exempted from the 2-millioin baht rule”

“ I have already confirmed with the MOL in Bangkok this is the process, here is the number to call them”

“Can you please write in Thai here what else I need for this application, who needs to sign these documents”.

Hope I have been helpful. Trust me, what I have suggested works.

Edited June 30, 2005 by samran

[PeaceBlondie]

Bless you, Samran, you surely are being a gentleman when I'm being quite testy. I haven't laughed so loud in a long time, reading your last post #13. I haven't learned Thai in two years, partly because I was so busy working full-time in that neighboring province, I didn't have time to learn Thai. I'm tone-deaf, and the 8 schools in Chiang Mai that offer courses didn't seem to have what I need. My Thai is not better than I think. I cannot express one sentence in Thai, but I do know how to say "watermelon" in four languages. Anyone for watermelon?

You kindly suggested, "What works best, is literally to do it all yourself. Steal some letter head paper, type those letters up yourself, draw up the map of the school and just generally go above peoples heads, don’t rely on anyone to do anything for you. If a letter needs signing, my experience is that people are always happy to sign it if it doesn’t mean they have to write it too. If something needs to be in Thai, you write it in English first, then get one of your more senior students to translate into Thai for an assignment."

First, you're asking me to steal from the government. I don't know where the letterhead stationery is. My boss didn't get me any. I wrote a letter and got it signed, but on draft paper - even with the diskette, they couldn't be bothered to get it on letterhead. I didn't have any senior students - just matayom 1 last year. You suggest that I write out the chain of command of my school. I only knew the first and last name of my immediate supervisor, the first name and nickname of my next supervisor, and that's all. I still am not sure of the director's first name. A map of the school - I don't know the street names. There are no maps (in English) that I know of, of that town. I don't know the school's address or phone number. I worked there an entire year, and I was paying attention. I was the only one paying attention all year.

The number for the MoL, you ask? I don't know, and they don't know it to tell me. Oh, maybe it's on this forum somewhere? Don't worry.

The head honcho in the province, you ask? Well, the mid-level supervisor in the local MoL office told my boss he didn't know whether a certain required form for the work permit should be signed by the provincial MoE officer, or the provincial GOVERNOR!

My contract, you ask? I never saw my contract. I signed a blank Thai form and never saw it again. I asked for it many times until I decided there never was a contract; the director probably never signed it. My boss was so scared of her boss, she was pathetic.

Samran, for the sake of peace, I'll trust you that if I could have done all those things last year or the prior year, it probably would have worked. But I couldn't, the schools couldn't, and the MoL didn't seem able to do it.

I'll tell you what's foolish - all of us who come traipsing into Thailand with little more than a tourist visa (or even a one-year multiple B visa), our bachelor's diploma, and a TEFL certificate, thinking that somehow we'll get by. If we're bright and diligent, we may manage to get by, but we won't flourish, and there's only a very slim chance of being legal. Unlike career employees of multinational companies, we're not highly valued by our employers. Most schools, private and public, apparently think they can get six more just like us in a day or two (that's what the director told my boss 6 months ago). Perhaps no foreign teacher should ever come to Thailand. Perhaps we're all fools to teach here.

I'm moving to the other end of the country in July, anyway. Just to make you happy, I think I'll require my employer to promise me in writing that they'll lose face publicly in daylight if they don't get me a work permit within 30 days of signing the contract.

Edited June 30, 2005 by PeaceBlondie

[khall64au]

Working without the correct paperwork is silly (sorry, stupid!!!)

It is however important to note that when being caught two things are checked.

First: do you have a workpermit?

Second: if not, do you have at least a valid Non-imm. B visa.

If you don't have the non-imm. visa you are in big trouble since you violated both immigration and labour laws (with immigration being the though one).

Major chance of being both deported and blacklisted. (after you payed your fines and/or served jail time)

If you do hold a valid non-imm. B visa, immigration is not involved. They can't even lock you up in the IDC.  It's only a matter between you and the labour department, and it seems that in a lot of cases they're more interested in getting you on the right track instead of prosecuting you...

It will depend on circumstances though! Doing volunteer work, teaching in government schools etc. will probably get you of lightly.

If you were however blatantly ignoring regulations for a long time, and so avoiding paying taxes etc., you will be in a lot of legal troubles...

Still, the first sentence i wrote sums it up 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how about this scenario: I worked here legally for 2 1/2 yrs with a work permit. I few months ago I was asked to resign as the company was cutting costs. No more work permit, no more B-Visa.I was promised a "departure" payment and am still waiting. Going blue in the face now!

Meanwhile I am being offered consultancy work left right and centre - A LOT OF WORK. I am highly qualified and well connected. I have not had to seek the work, companies are coming to me. My work is promoting Thailand to the world. Quite valuable to Thai society, one would think

I have investigated many avenues to work legally again and need to raise the cash if my only option is to establish a company in order to work as a consultant to other companies.

I'm told I have to go home to my country to get a B-Visa but can't unless the past employer pays me what is legally owed to me.

Catch- 22 Any suggestions?

[Dr. Burrito]

Working without the correct paperwork is silly (sorry, stupid!!!)

It is however important to note that when being caught two things are checked.

First: do you have a workpermit?

Second: if not, do you have at least a valid Non-imm. B visa.

If you don't have the non-imm. visa you are in big trouble since you violated both immigration and labour laws (with immigration being the though one).

Major chance of being both deported and blacklisted. (after you payed your fines and/or served jail time)

If you do hold a valid non-imm. B visa, immigration is not involved. They can't even lock you up in the IDC.  It's only a matter between you and the labour department, and it seems that in a lot of cases they're more interested in getting you on the right track instead of prosecuting you...

It will depend on circumstances though! Doing volunteer work, teaching in government schools etc. will probably get you of lightly.

If you were however blatantly ignoring regulations for a long time, and so avoiding paying taxes etc., you will be in a lot of legal troubles...

Still, the first sentence i wrote sums it up 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how about this scenario: I worked here legally for 2 1/2 yrs with a work permit. I few months ago I was asked to resign as the company was cutting costs. No more work permit, no more B-Visa.I was promised a "departure" payment and am still waiting. Going blue in the face now!

Meanwhile I am being offered consultancy work left right and centre - A LOT OF WORK. I am highly qualified and well connected. I have not had to seek the work, companies are coming to me. My work is promoting Thailand to the world. Quite valuable to Thai society, one would think

I have investigated many avenues to work legally again and need to raise the cash if my only option is to establish a company in order to work as a consultant to other companies.

I'm told I have to go home to my country to get a B-Visa but can't unless the past employer pays me what is legally owed to me.

Catch- 22 Any suggestions?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I imagine unless you got this 'departure payment' agreement in writing, you are out of luck. You should have made them fire you. Resigning here and being fired are two different things all together as I understand it anyway.

Resigning, you've nothing to hold over their heads at the Labor Department, and with 2+ yrs behind you, it might have been a nice little sum. Perhaps someone here knows more or better than I on that, but I think you're done on this, short of some supportive paperwork.

Edited July 1, 2005 by Dr. Burrito

[khall64au]

Working without the correct paperwork is silly (sorry, stupid!!!)

It is however important to note that when being caught two things are checked.

First: do you have a workpermit?

Second: if not, do you have at least a valid Non-imm. B visa.

If you don't have the non-imm. visa you are in big trouble since you violated both immigration and labour laws (with immigration being the though one).

Major chance of being both deported and blacklisted. (after you payed your fines and/or served jail time)

If you do hold a valid non-imm. B visa, immigration is not involved. They can't even lock you up in the IDC.  It's only a matter between you and the labour department, and it seems that in a lot of cases they're more interested in getting you on the right track instead of prosecuting you...

It will depend on circumstances though! Doing volunteer work, teaching in government schools etc. will probably get you of lightly.

If you were however blatantly ignoring regulations for a long time, and so avoiding paying taxes etc., you will be in a lot of legal troubles...

Still, the first sentence i wrote sums it up 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So how about this scenario: I worked here legally for 2 1/2 yrs with a work permit. I few months ago I was asked to resign as the company was cutting costs. No more work permit, no more B-Visa.I was promised a "departure" payment and am still waiting. Going blue in the face now!

Meanwhile I am being offered consultancy work left right and centre - A LOT OF WORK. I am highly qualified and well connected. I have not had to seek the work, companies are coming to me. My work is promoting Thailand to the world. Quite valuable to Thai society, one would think

I have investigated many avenues to work legally again and need to raise the cash if my only option is to establish a company in order to work as a consultant to other companies.

I'm told I have to go home to my country to get a B-Visa but can't unless the past employer pays me what is legally owed to me.

Catch- 22 Any suggestions?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I imagine unless you got this 'departure payment' agreement in writing, you are out of luck. You should have made them fire you. Resigning here and being fired are two different things all together as I understand it anyway.

Resigning, you've nothing to hold over their heads at the Labor Department, and with 2+ yrs behind you, it might have been a nice little sum. Perhaps someone here knows more or better than I on that, but I think you're done on this, short of some supportive paperwork.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did get it in writing and the employer counter-signed it back in February agreeing to pay me a mutually agreed figure plus outstanding commissions. All in all a very tidy sum in total if it would materialise.

[Dr. Burrito]

Well, you might try, but no doubt you'll have to first go the Department of Labor. I'd guess their repsonse would be, 'You resigned, this civil matter. Go to court. Sue!"

You've probably got a pretty good idea what kind of fun that will prove. But best of luck.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

5 months have passed already.

[EVO]

In response to the OP not knowing the address of his school, or the names of the people around him etc etc.

I understand your situation with regard to becoming legal. It can indeed be quite a difficult obstacle for the province teacher to overcome, but to not know the address of yoru work place after being there for a year?? I find that rather difficult to comprehend.

Why not just move to a different school that will provide you with the paperwork, and do it all for you?

Nee thanon chuu arai?? might come in helpful for you.

[Neeranam]

I have read that if someone tries to work in thailand without a work permit that they can be deported, or fined, or even put in jail for up to 3 month? does that really happen? or what usually happens?

In over 12 years of living and working here, I have never known anyone to have any of the above happen to them. I heard of one person who was done due to some relationship gone wrong involving an important person.

I am talking with a friend now, who is a teacher and has been for 23 years in Thailand and never had a work permit. He maybe doesn't know as much about Thailand as some of you guys though.

[paully]

^ Hope he's got a visa, at least.

Edited July 6, 2005 by paully

[Bluffer]

PB I am with you on this one all the way.

Too many people who arent teachers think we are a bunch of lazy stupid low lifes and samran has just shown that attitude again.

What works best, is literally to do it all yourself. Steal some letter head paper, type those letters up yourself,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had to laugh at this myself. Lets see now. In order to be legal you have to steal and commit forgery.

Mate, I am more right than wrong, which is all that counts in life….

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

nice to see some humble people here.

Ummm, well, these rules don’t apply to government institutions and State Owned Enterprises.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes, a different set of rules exist from the ministry of education to get a teachers licence - without which you cannot get a work permit from the ministry of labour

If you are going to ask how to get around the language problem, I could be a smart arse and say, learn a bit of Thai.... If something needs to be in Thai, you write it in English first, then get one of your more senior students to translate into Thai for an assignment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Getting older student to translate? Thats ok if you

a ) have good students

b ) are at Matayom. How can you ask Pratom 2 to translate a contract? And

c ) you know it wont go back to parents.

Mum - what did you do in school today son?

Son - Well I translated the teachers contract for him. Do you know how much he earns?

My first school DIDNT WANT me to be legal. I tried myself. I couldnt. The school wasnt registered with the ministry of education. no registration, no teachers licence. It was a wat school covering pratom 1 - 6 but wasnt registered as a school. who knows why. But the upshot was I couldnt be legal. Contract? What was that? Never signed one from the school. In the end I made one up myself I was so frustrated with them delaying it. They refused to sign it.

Tell me, should I forge the signature as well as the other letters?

You many know what to do with the "normal" work permit procedure but for teachers, you don't.

[jauntyjohn]

How would it be viewed by immigration if one has a Non immigrant type O visa but not a work permit?

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, bluffer.

The address, you ask? Where is that in English? Oh, you ask a teacher. A teechrr of Englich, who is a Thai edjucator wurking in a schul in Tie-Land. They're too busy. I'll bet if you asked 9 English teachers for the address, ,many would make an excuse or somehow never do it. The rest would come up with different versions.

I did move on to another school. They didn't know, either.

Now I'm at my third school, where I was promised a work permit. Guess what? Besides, why should they break their back getting me a WP during the first month or two, for somebody who teaches only six hours per week?

Thanks also to the poster who related 35 ajarn-years in Thailand without hearing of a teacher being deported or jailed for not having a WP.

When farang ajarns try this hard to get Thai administrators to do their job, we are labelled as troublemakers who are 'too serious.'

[Sumitr Man]

I noticed in the paper this week that Phuket Air have just been busted for having a pilot who was working without a WP - last I heard they were investigating the matter

[Boatabike]

PB if your school is of no use to you at all give them a deadline to help by then tell them at the end of that time you will regrettably be forced to seek employment elsewhere as much as you love working with the staff and the kids at your present school. Or get a local person who does speak English to help you negotiate with the school explaining the situation you are in and the need to be legal. But if the school won’t help try a new one that will if this is possible.

[thomasjojo]

but take the risk of working in an office, without a WP, when u even NOT get paid, well thats rediclilous, stupid etc.

NOt me!

[p_brownstone]

Slightly off topic I know.

I get SO tired of all the “English Teachers” who wash up on the shores of Thailand and immediately assume for themselves the title “Acharn”.

Patrick

[samran]

Note to self: Never cross an English teacher without a work permit.