Work Permit

[PeaceBlondie]

Slightly off topic I know.

I get SO tired of all the “English Teachers” who wash up on the shores of Thailand and immediately assume for themselves the title “Acharn”.

Patrick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So if it's off-topic, we could start another thread in the teachers' forum. I'll agree that some plumber's helpers from their home country come here, get a fake degree, and pretend they're teachers. As for me, I had a BA, a TEFL cert, and varied experience (about 6 years full time) in training/instruction before washing up on the shores of the moat in Chiang Mai. I never called myself 'ajarn' until about 6000 Thais did it, including hundreds of Thai teachers. You needn't complain to me,, but you may complain about it to 6,000 Thais who probably speak more fluent Thai than you do.

Have a nice day.

Work permit: I gave up, then I tried again, then gave up again, etc. Boatabike, I could have done as you suggest, but I decided it wasn't worth the hassle. Part of the mess is my own fault. Anyway, I've left there, and I'll bet my replacements don't get work permits, either.

Samran, I'm not sure what you meant by your last remark, but I hope it doesn't look as if you made me cross. You tried your best to help me; thanks for that.

[p_brownstone]

Read the Post sweetie.

I wrote "assume for themselves"

How can you teach English if you don't understand it?

Patrick

[PeaceBlondie]

Sorry Patrick, but which part of ass-u-me did we not understand? You were criticizing certain farang teachers of taking upon the name of 'ajarn' for themselves, and since I'm the teacher of English that's been hogging this thread too much, I deduced that your post, off-topic, might be aimed in my general direction. So, I pointed out that I didn't start using the title until Thais had called me 'ajarn.'

Patsy dear, have we met?

Trying to drag this thread back on topic, it's not always easy for a teacher in Nakhorn Nowhere (even a provincial capital Nakhorn) to get a work permit, in spite of what some comfortably ensconced expatriates may think (or they may assume). When a teacher's trying to fit in, do their job, make friends in a strange land, etc., it may not be worth the effort to trouble the waters.

Patrick, are you in the mood to start a thread on the past perfect passive progressive tense, subjunctive mood?

[samran]

I'll tell you what might be useful so that we can salvage this thread and so we can add value (Arrrghh!!! consultant speak - apologies).

If you could outline more or less what the problems were at your various stages, what you did do yourself to try and resolve it, and the problems you came up against in getting a WP in the sticks, it might be useful to other readers who come along. It might even prompt responses from others who may know a solution, or have been in the position where a WP for them has been granted.

Long shot I know, but hey, I'm an optomist.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, Samran. Okay, rather than recount their inability and my indifference, I'll suggest that teachers applying for a position anywhere in Thailand (this happens in Bangkok and Chiang Mai, too) do the following, looking for danger signs:

1. The ad does not promise to help the teacher secure proper paperwork.

2. In either the phone call to the recruiter or the employment interview, your prospective employer evades, avoids, ignores or obfuscates your direct questions about visa, license, and work permit.

3. Within one week of starting to work, you should present the paperwork that you know will be needed (photocopies of your passport, visa, university degree, TEFL certificate, etc.) - keep the originals for now - and pointedly ask if this person is ready to proceed, or if you should give this material to somebody else. Take notes, take down names and phone numbers, get addresses, fingerprints, etc.

4. When an apparently responsible person accepts your photocopies, get them to tell you when they'll finish their first stage of this, and tell them you'll be back in 3 working days to check on it.

5. Keep on them. If you see no results of good progress on your paperwork by your first paycheck, take the money and run.

[spencerdharmagrafix]

Two things:

If your employer does not know/can’t be arsed to get a work permit for you, and if you fancy yourself as slightly intelligent, then it is possible to do it all yourself. I know people who have done it. It takes a little running around and collecting paperwork, the occasional back and forth between departments, but it is do-able. I know people who have done this themselves. Additionally, there is a get a work permit in 10 easy steps guide on this website, plus the forum to help you.

As for the risks? Who knows/cares? One thing they won’t want to know is your sob story when they do pick you up. A good first hand story of being chucked in the IDC is available on Bangkok Mouth. Read on: here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes you can get a work permit yourself...i did so, i had to be able to read thai to do it, but it was possible..the problem was that when going to the immigration myself and doing the talking, the Thais didnt like it..this is due to the fact that the lawyer who normally does it for you will have to deal with the same officials regularly, as they represent many other Farang too who are applying for permits. They have their own way of doing these things, which i had to do in their style..this made them very uncomfortable, as some og the things that are "Their Style" would take on a very negative appearance for Thailand in the eyes of foreign Countries.

Would you know how to interpret being told to go into the kitchen to get water as a hint to go and leave some money on the table? I would never recommend a Farang to make his own work permit, as you will be faced with two choices; both ofwhich whill be unbeneficial to you..first choice:- follow the Thai Rules and commit a punishable crime through giving money to a police officer (alwasy fires back in one way or another), Two; refuse to follow these rules, in which case the officer you are dealing with will have no money to give his boss to smooth the way for your visa and his evening out in the karaoke bar.This will make the whole process of obtaining the necessary documents for continued stay in Thailand very sticky indeed...In the moment the real Truth is that we have absolutely no rights as foreigners (even if we are married to a Thai), and until we make some important changes we shall continue being second class citizens in Thailand.

I would like to suggestAssociation of Foreigners in Thailand Website, as a good beginning in the attempt to help improve our situation in a friendly, congenial way.I do believe we need to join together to show our presence and try to gain some kind of similar rights that other foreigners recieve in western countries..but that is still a long way off.I really believe that our numbers have increased in Thailand over the past years, and that the road starts about right here; the road to Home - Thailand as our real home.If the above mentioned website/association gets enough people involved we may hava a chance..it seems like the best thin in the moment to me, along with thaivisa.com which i find absolutely of key importance as a database for expats..love this forum!

[lukamar]

For some reason whenever you try and post a link to the Association of Foreigners in Thailand, on this site, you get a link to google.

You will have to search Google Search Terms to find the site.

The one thing that I have found is that the foreign community in Thailand is very fragmented. From executives living well in BKK to people living with their Thai family eking out a living growing rice. Pulling all these otherwise unrelated people with their individual problems together is more of a challenge than dealing with the Thai bureaucracy.

Edited July 12, 2005 by lukamar

[thaiman]

Let's say I am working on a tourist visa and I get busted on the spot. Let's say I had 20,000 baht in my pocket. Could I just bribe my way out of the situation? Would it make any differnece if I had a non-b visa? From my understanding, everybody in Thailand can be bought off. What is the price for this violation?

[Rumpole]

Slightly off topic I know.

I get SO tired of all the “English Teachers” who wash up on the shores of Thailand and immediately assume for themselves the title “Acharn”.

Patrick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

THAI school owners and administrators are more than happy to employ this flotsam and jetsam, thus allowing them to call themselves "Acharn". Just as long as they are prepared to work for peanuts and don't demand overly complicated "benefits" - like a work permit.

I eventually grew weary of the indolence, the lies and the broken promises from TWO so-called leading universities regarding the non-appearance of my work permit. This was a major factor in my decision to leave the country. In more than 20 years in international education, I have NEVER, before or since, worked illegally nor has any employer even remotely suggested or condoned it. I do NOT consider the provision of legal working papers as some kind of perk or fringe benefit (which is how many Thai schools seem to regard them). To me, they are an essential pre-requisite for employment.

Edited July 24, 2005 by Rumpole

[Rumpole]

It is all very well to say "do it yourself". Even the Thais are daunted by the whole, ridiculously convoluted procedure. A new arrival in the country is left floundering in a bewildering array of red tape. This is compounded by the fact that many schools, whilst patently witholding any useful assistance, are extremely reluctant to give a teacher time off to attend to the Byzantine process themselves.

The only people who are willing to jump through all the fiery hoops, are those who have some compelling reason for wishing to remain in Thailand.

Edited July 24, 2005 by Rumpole

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Let's say I am working on  a tourist visa and I get busted on the spot.  Let's say I had 20,000 baht in my pocket.  Could I just bribe my way out of the situation?  Would it make any differnece if I had a non-b visa?  From my understanding, everybody in Thailand can be bought off.  What is the price for this violation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's say you're a first class dummy.

[OxfordWill]

In the case of the girl who got written promise of departure pay that hasnt materialised, you can definitely sue and you are very likely to win (read: get some cash) without any trouble. Find a thai lawyer who speaks english and do it. People do it all the time its just that this forum, for some reason, likes to scaremonger anyone away from doing anything with the legal system in thailand (or anything that brings you into actual contact with a thai in authority).

[PeaceBlondie]

During my transfer to another part of Thailand, I'm seriously contemplating a new method of negotiation for a teaching job. In the job interview, I will declare that it is absolutely essential for the employer to abide by Thai law, and get me a work permit, for which I will do all that I can do. If there is no tangible documentary proof that they are doing their part, I'll leave immediately.

Obviously, I don't need to work in order to survive. I'll bet that half of the foreign teachers in Thailand are not legal because their employers are too lazy or incompetent.

[Rumpole]

During my transfer to another part of Thailand, I'm seriously contemplating a new method of negotiation for a teaching job.  In the job interview, I will declare that it is absolutely essential for the employer to abide by Thai law, and get me a work permit, for which I will do all that I can do. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tried that. Didn't work.

If there is no tangible documentary proof that they are doing their part, I'll leave immediately.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep. That's what I did.

[thaiman]

Let's say I am working on  a tourist visa and I get busted on the spot.  Let's say I had 20,000 baht in my pocket.  Could I just bribe my way out of the situation?  Would it make any differnece if I had a non-b visa?  From my understanding, everybody in Thailand can be bought off.  What is the price for this violation?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's say you're a first class dummy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doctor, please elaborate.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

working on a tourist visa is not the smartest thing to do in Thailand

[penelope]

working on a tourist visa is not the smartest thing to do in Thailand

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tourists who work on tourist visas are not the smartest people in Thailand

[thaiman]

I understand that working on a tourist visa is not a good idea. Ideally, the best situation would be to have a Non-b with a work permit. Let's assume that one has a non-b but no work permit and is working in Thailand. Is this better than working with just a tourist visa? If so, why? What are the possible consequences if one were to get caught?

[davethailand]

I understand that working on a tourist visa is not a good idea.  Ideally, the best situation would be to have a Non-b with a work permit.  Let's assume that one has a non-b but no work permit and is working in Thailand.  Is this better than working with just a tourist visa?  If so, why?  What are the possible consequences if one were to get caught?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same punishment.

[penelope]

I understand that working on a tourist visa is not a good idea.  Ideally, the best situation would be to have a Non-b with a work permit.  Let's assume that one has a non-b but no work permit and is working in Thailand.  Is this better than working with just a tourist visa?  If so, why?  What are the possible consequences if one were to get caught?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is a black and white issue..you are either acting legally or illegaly.

Is this better than working with just a tourist visa? It is the same.Illegal.