Death Of A Nation? Paradise Lost? Death Of Paradise?

[phetaroi]

Did you just notice some of these things? Is it that your memory is very short or have you just not been in Thailand that long?

...

I see this rants about every two or three months. Usually it stems fom some Farang expat who suddeny discovers his Dollar/Pound/Euro won't buy what it used to...and his beer costs more than he wants to pay for that reason.

I'm not being impolite...but maybe you ought to read Thai history. it never has been Paradise..or the Land Of Smiles. The truth is that it never was.

The truth is that Thailand is a country of human beings. There has always been corruption, the people have always been poor...and were always led by the rich. Whatever political party that was is irrelevant...the wealthy have always been in charge...and they still are. Life for the average Thai worker was a battle to find enough to make life bearable. It still is for a majority of Thais...especially those outside of the cities.

...Anyway, bottom line, in 1977 or 1945, or 1990...or just about any year you pick....there was no "Paradise" in Thailand for the average Thai.

If you think otherwise...you either weren't around to see the reality of those times or you have those famous Rose colored glasses on.

I have a Thai family...all working somehow...and I know how it really is for those people. Don't be fooled by the propaganda...life is and always has been a struggle for the majority of Thais.

So, with all due politeness, you don't really know what you are talking about.

Well, first of all, saying "with all due politeness", and then laughing, isn't really very polite at all.

Second, please don't pull that "I've been here longer than you have, so I know more about the real situation than do you" routine. I know farangs who have lived in Thailand for years, spend most of their time sitting on bar stools in Soi Cowboy, and don't know squat about the "real" Thailand...whatever that is.

I doubt there are many countries in the world where you are more likely to be scammed than Thailand. And please don't tell me that's what poverty breeds. After my step father died, my own mother often had no money for heating oil, didn't buy "good quality" food, drove a broken-down heap, and scrimped on needed medicines for herself. But she didn't scam people, steal, or latch onto a sugar daddy. She just worked dam_n hard and long hours as a waitress and babysitter. The fact that there's "always been corruption" in Thailand doesn't make it moral or desirable. It's about time Thailand cleaned up its act and stopped saying what you appear to be saying -- but it's always been that way. But then again, Thais are not a people who understand the concept of actively solving problems. And if you think they are, perhaps you can describe to me the problem solving initiatives that have eradicated the separatist movement in the South, which, by most counts, has cost 4,000 plus lives, with more being lost almost everyday to shootings, bombings, and even beheadings (not to mention the burning down of childrens' schools.

Perhaps you should become aware that in some international circles, when you talk about the poor of Thailand, that you're apt to get a smile and a response that the poor of Thailand are "the most comfortable poor people in the third world".

I think its way past due that Thais and expats stopped making excuses for the short-comings of the Thai nation.

[Globalhot]

The problems started prior to 2005.

So, the premise is false.

I started noticing serious problems right about the time Thaksin was elected.

Things changed after that, and not for the better.

What did you notice?

Good question. We all know corruption and consolidation of power and misuse of power goes way back in Thailand.

The country has always seemed like some feudal system with powerful people ruling various regions.

Anyway, what I saw was corruption rising to an unprecedented level in modern times.

I also saw the public change, embracing corruption as a way of life (anything goes to get a buck mentality).

Corruption became culturally ingrained and accepted--the country was choking on it.

I saw blatant illegal acts get ignored by the courts.

I saw the Thai people change and become far more materialistic and anti-foreigner than they were in the, say, 80s and 90s.

Basically, these were signs of Thai culture unraveling. It was like a certain person knew which thread to pull out that would unravel the tapestry of Thai culture.

I have not seen it get better since then (i.e., since the start of the Thaksin legacy).

I do, however, admire the current PM and view him as far better for Thai culture.

[Ulysses G.]

h[/i]etaroi' date='2010-07-11 04:45' timestamp='1278798302' post='3741229']

I think its way past due that Thais and expats stopped making excuses for the short-comings of the Thai nation.

Almost no one is "making excuses" for Thailand. They are saying that Thailand has always been much like it is now, so why do so many farangs move here, stay here, and do nothing but moan, whinge and complain about something that is probably not going to change?

Why?

Edited July 10, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[seanocasey]

h[/i]etaroi' date='2010-07-11 04:45' timestamp='1278798302' post='3741229']

I think its way past due that Thais and expats stopped making excuses for the short-comings of the Thai nation.

Almost no one is "making excuses" for Thailand. They are saying that Thailand has always been much like it is now, so why do so many farangs move here, stay here, and do nothing but moan, whinge and complain about something that is probably not going to change?

Why?

yes you are right again 'Ulysses G.' but whom will listen. we are guests here and we should be content to live in pleasant country.

When it comes to lifestyle, it’s not what you choose, but rather how you choose it.

[mca]

Reading some of the posters on TVF anybody would think that the " foreigners can't own land" rule was introduced the day after they arrived.

BTW with all due respects to the OP the "foreigners are going to be blamed in an accident" is another fallacy that's full of what makes the roses grow.

Edited July 11, 2010 by mca

[fiddlehead]

I thought it was a very good article and thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts.

I believe that the longer you live here, the more of these negative thoughts you agree with and are what is creating the problems we find here: Namely corruption and education and the Thai "mai pen rai" attitude to everything.

In the beginning, i thought the mai pen rai statement was pretty cool and not a bad way to go through life. But, now, after living here a while, it doesn't seem to have the same meaning for me and I hear it much more from the poor people than the upper class. I think the education system has a lot to do with that and it's easier to say it than do something about the problems they face.

Anyway, it's a bit too negative and you don't happen to point out whats good about this country, only the bad. But maybe that's coming in your next rant.

And hopefully you will ignore the naysayers who don't like much of anything they read on here. Some of them have too much time on their hands and are little more than trolls. Just look at their post count for one.

[grumpyoldman]

What a load of opinionated B.S.

And that's YOUR opinion, as well as your right to express it.

And, by the way, it's easy to sit there and call it "opinionated B.S.", but I don't see you refuting, or disagreeing with the things I have said with any type of intelligent reply?

Have a nice day!

I agree with Ulysses G. there's always an angle, yours is negative, many of us see the glass half full.

Have a nice day !

[thaisomchai]

While this is certainly paints a negative picture of Thailand, it also . .unfortunately . . .paints a very accurate picture.

Thanks Onevoice for posting it. It says so much about Thailand and the Thai character . . as does the post by Phetaroi about Image and substance.

Yes, you could write an equally long article about the good that is here. It is after all home for many of us here and we still enjoy the many wonders that amazing Thailand has to offer . .despite all of the above.

Thaisomchai, I agree and hope no one gets the impression that I am "down" on Thailand. I've been coming here for years, and have been living her full time, married to a wonderful Thai woman, for the past 3 years. For the most part I love this country and the people, and have no intentions of leaving unless full civil war breaks out and my family is placed in danger. I just want to see the country get better, not worse.

I am filled with the wonder of this country . .it is truly amazing and I would still go more with the "paradise found" designation!

Yet everything you say is true. I believe it takes an Asian mind to accept the horrible aspects along with the beauty . .and focus on the beauty as much as one is able, while keeping in mind the "reality".

[thaisomchai]

Reading some of the posters on TVF anybody would think that the " foreigners can't own land" rule was introduced the day after they arrived.

BTW with all due respects to the OP the "foreigners are going to be blamed in an accident" is another fallacy that's full of what makes the roses grow.

Sorry, but you are WRONG. Foreigners are even being blamed after the fact.

I have had TWO friends driving cars who were run in to by motorcycles . . .one of them was parked in a parking space.

BOTH were "charged" for the accident and had to pay.

There was another incident a while back in which a farang stopped to help at an accident scene . .and was charged! With the police involved. . .farang = easy money!

[Boater]

one of the best post's i have ever read on Thaivisa.....

i liked the part about the girl who worked in a libary in the US and read the REAL thai history books ..... if you look at the internet now, there are many interesting things about thailand that are banned in thailand

[samuibeachcomber]

my two satang........................i like the way it is,otherwise i would n't stay.ok i would like it to be cleaner,less rubbish.Why do "we" always want to change things.Talking about corruption here, dont we have terrible corruption too in western style so called democracies?Only there it seems to be legalised.

[mca]

Reading some of the posters on TVF anybody would think that the " foreigners can't own land" rule was introduced the day after they arrived.

BTW with all due respects to the OP the "foreigners are going to be blamed in an accident" is another fallacy that's full of what makes the roses grow.

Sorry, but you are WRONG. Foreigners are even being blamed after the fact.

I have had TWO friends driving cars who were run in to by motorcycles . . .one of them was parked in a parking space.

BOTH were "charged" for the accident and had to pay.

There was another incident a while back in which a farang stopped to help at an accident scene . .and was charged! With the police involved. . .farang = easy money!

Guess your friends are just need to grow some balls when they're in the right. Although some people do seem to walk around with an invisible " MUG" printed on their forehead that only locals can see. This " the westerner will always be blamed and always have to pay" is, quite simply, a pile of crap.

I was involved in an accident which was completely the other guys fault. He fell off a motorcycle coming the other way to me and went straight under my wheels. He was drunk. Luckily no damage to my vehicle. After the ambulance carted him off to hospital the police came, took a look at the scene, checked my docs, took a statement and left. In fact they asked if I wanted to take the matter further. I haven't heard anything since 3 years later.

I can give you a number of incidents like that involving westerners I know.

But that kind of knocks the barstool fantasy doesn't it.

[way2muchcoffee]

Guess your friends are just need to grow some balls when they're in the right. Although some people do seem to walk around with an invisible " MUG" printed on their forehead that only locals can see. This " the westerner will always be blamed and always have to pay" is, quite simply, a pile of crap.

I was involved in an accident which was completely the other guys fault. He fell off a motorcycle coming the other way to me and went straight under my wheels. He was drunk. Luckily no damage to my vehicle. After the ambulance carted him off to hospital the police came, took a look at the scene, checked my docs, took a statement and left. In fact they asked if I wanted to take the matter further. I haven't heard anything since 3 years later.

I can give you a number of incidents like that involving westerners I know.

But that kind of knocks the barstool fantasy doesn't it.

Your experience is different than others. Their experiences do not invalidate yours and yours do not invalidate theirs. You and others have had an experience with honest police. Many others have had experiences with dishonest police.

There is no universal truth here. It has nothing to do with growing a pair of balls or being a mug.

Edited July 11, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[mca]

If you are involved in a traffic incident with a Thai, you are going to be blamed, regardless of whether it was your fault or not

This from the OP. I'm saying it's not true. But I forgot that this forum is the home of sweeping generalizations about all things Thai.

[samtam]

I thought this was an interesting and well written piece. As others have suggested, it is predicated on an incorrect view that Thailand was paradise prior to 2005. All the examples of the so-called decline of Thailand, (and they are good ones, with which we are all familiar), have been going on since well before my time. Perhaps we just never knew about them, or chose to ignore them. The difference today is that we do know about them, all of them. Everyone does. With this knowledge it is sad, infuriating, (pick your adjective), that Thais are happy to continue to live with this culture and are not willing to adapt, and there is no one with any moral fibre willing to take the country in a new direction. I think not believing that the basic precepts of honesty, decency, compassion and generosity of spirit and deed are things we should all aspire to, is a very disturbing fault in any culture and society. The fact that foreigners who live here make these arguments matters as much or as little as the Thais who wish to see no change in the status quo. It is indeed their country, and theirs to do something about, or not. Making observations is all we can do. But the task is enormous, and cannot be addressed by any quick fixes. If society decides it wants to see those changes, it will take one (or two) generations for there to be a palpable difference.

Edited July 11, 2010 by samtam

[Just1Voice]

Guess your friends are just need to grow some balls when they're in the right. Although some people do seem to walk around with an invisible " MUG" printed on their forehead that only locals can see. This " the westerner will always be blamed and always have to pay" is, quite simply, a pile of crap.

I was involved in an accident which was completely the other guys fault. He fell off a motorcycle coming the other way to me and went straight under my wheels. He was drunk. Luckily no damage to my vehicle. After the ambulance carted him off to hospital the police came, took a look at the scene, checked my docs, took a statement and left. In fact they asked if I wanted to take the matter further. I haven't heard anything since 3 years later.

I can give you a number of incidents like that involving westerners I know.

But that kind of knocks the barstool fantasy doesn't it.

Your experience is different than others. Their experiences do not invalidate yours and yours do not invalidate theirs. You and others have had an experience with honest police. Many others have had experiences with dishonest police.

There is no universal truth here. It has nothing to do with growing a pair of balls or being a mug.

I agree with what way2much has stated, because I can cite 3 situation in which I was a first hand witness, or involved in, where the police were DEAD SET on blaming the foreigner, despite CLEAR evidence the Thai was a fault.

[mca]

Read my last post. if you honestly believe the statement that a foreigner will be blamed in an accident (not " some" or " a few") then all well and good. We can agree to disagree.

[mark45y]

US Flying Fortresses were bombing Bangkok. The city was on fire. Thai diplomats were desperately trying to repeal their declaration of war against the US and Brits. British and Indian troops were on the Thai border ready to occupy Thailand. A treaty was on the table in Washington ceding Thailand to Britain.

Now that is paradise lost.

A year later. Everything is OK. The Brits stopped in for a while to send the Japanese home and then left.

Thais were building hotels for the post WW II expected tourist boom. Bangkok wasn’t on fire anymore. Everyone was happy.

I think the current problems pale in comparison.

[IanForbes]

Pick a country that ISN'T in the toilet right now and going in the wrong direction.. It still comes down to personal likes and dislikes, and how much tolerance you have for the oddities you find everywhere. There are many things I can have in Thailand that I can't have in Canada... which is supposed to be one of the jewel countries in the world. I don't worry about things that I have no control over, and I react according to what life deals me at the moment.

[thaisomchai]

Guess your friends are just need to grow some balls when they're in the right. Although some people do seem to walk around with an invisible " MUG" printed on their forehead that only locals can see. This " the westerner will always be blamed and always have to pay" is, quite simply, a pile of crap.

I was involved in an accident which was completely the other guys fault. He fell off a motorcycle coming the other way to me and went straight under my wheels. He was drunk. Luckily no damage to my vehicle. After the ambulance carted him off to hospital the police came, took a look at the scene, checked my docs, took a statement and left. In fact they asked if I wanted to take the matter further. I haven't heard anything since 3 years later.

I can give you a number of incidents like that involving westerners I know.

But that kind of knocks the barstool fantasy doesn't it.

Your experience is different than others. Their experiences do not invalidate yours and yours do not invalidate theirs. You and others have had an experience with honest police. Many others have had experiences with dishonest police.

There is no universal truth here. It has nothing to do with growing a pair of balls or being a mug.

I agree with what way2much has stated, because I can cite 3 situation in which I was a first hand witness, or involved in, where the police were DEAD SET on blaming the foreigner, despite CLEAR evidence the Thai was a fault.

So mca met an honest Thai policeman. You were VERY lucky to have done so my friend . . .because the very concept is one most Thais will have trouble believing. Ask one. And ask what Thai people think a typical Thai policeman would do in the case of ANY accident involving a foreigner. Go ahead . .ask.

Doesnt matter how many balls you have . .the idea of a farang being right and standing up for it here is ridiculous. The best . .and only way to handle a situation like this ( car accident) is to get away asap if at all possible. If the police DO arrive, put everything in the hands of your nearest friendly Thai person ( spouse or whatever) and get your wallet ready to pay whatever the Thai on your side says to pay. Let them hash it out. Then just pay up and walk away.

Not a "fantasy" at all . .dont we wish! But the sad reality . . .and the kind of thing that goes right back to the first posts.

[mca]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. If I'm the only person on this forum who's had dealings with the police in an accident and only been dealt with in a straightforward manner then I've got a rather large hat I'll eat.

And apologies for coming across as rude but your advice about the nearest friendly Thai person hashing it out about what I'd have to pay is quite frankly laughable. I don't know what sort of friendly "shrinking violet" Thais you hang about with but my Thai wife, family and friends would either hash it out at the side of the road (in my favour) or come with me to the police station to sort it out there (in my favour). There's not a chance that they'd have me going home shelling out a single baht if I was in the right.

I'm sure there's other posters on here the same. I certainly hope so.

[pinkshrine]

Nice Job ! Anyway ,I want to say that the general situation is very  difficult all around the world ,not only in Thayland . The solution of a difficult situation ,in the global dimension, probably will take much time to resolve so we have to be very cautious and walking slow . The times are changed and we must to be up to stay !!!!

[473geo]

What a load of opinionated B.S.

And that's YOUR opinion, as well as your right to express it.

And, by the way, it's easy to sit there and call it "opinionated B.S.", but I don't see you refuting, or disagreeing with the things I have said with any type of intelligent reply?

Have a nice day!

I agree with Ulysses G. there's always an angle, yours is negative, many of us see the glass half full.

Have a nice day !

While I applaud the ability to see the glass as half full, a smart man will appreciate there are those who are entitled to view it as half empty, because indeed it is!!!! The angle you view the glass does not change the content of the glass.

Edited July 11, 2010 by 473geo

[phetaroi]

US Flying Fortresses were bombing Bangkok. The city was on fire. Thai diplomats were desperately trying to repeal their declaration of war against the US and Brits. British and Indian troops were on the Thai border ready to occupy Thailand. A treaty was on the table in Washington ceding Thailand to Britain.

Now that is paradise lost.

A year later. Everything is OK. The Brits stopped in for a while to send the Japanese home and then left.

Thais were building hotels for the post WW II expected tourist boom. Bangkok wasn’t on fire anymore. Everyone was happy.

I think the current problems pale in comparison.

I don't think it's a valid comparison. You're talking about something occurring during a nearly world-wide war during which Japan had been invaded by the Japanese, as compared to a situation that is occurring now that is wholly due to the Thais themselves. The situation you describe happened to Thailand. The situation occurring now is happening by Thailand.

[thaibeachlovers]

Sorry, but don't have time to read all 3 pages.

However, IMO, Thailand has never been "Paradise" for most locals, but certainly was for me as a wide eyed newbie in Nana back in the 90s.

I do not believe it ever really got much better under a certain ex PM for most locals, but it certainly became less of a monger's "Paradise" thanks to Purachai.

Since the coup, it has become more like the monger's "Paradise" of old, but due to the western recession and the strong baht is less affordable.

As far as the tourism sector goes, I believe the greedy Bangkok developers have killed the golden goose with their destruction of most of the nice beaches. Now that the trendy tourists will be too scared to come to LOS, who will fill all those posh resorts with the horizon pools- not the bagpackers, nor the mongers.

I have no idea how it's all going to end up, but given the lack of interest in politics by the Thais I meet, I don't think it's going to change much from "business as usual", with the occasional rumpus thrown in.

To those that think we farangs should be concerned about the locals and democracy and such, sorry, I only come here because I like the country, and still do, regardless of red, green. pink or yellow shirts. Should it become a place I no longer enjoy, I'll be gone, like most.

[slapout]

One of the more well written opinions for some time to show on TV. Those who keep telling others how much longer they have been in Thailand and nothing has changed where corruption and the farang reception is concerned may remember that there were few traffic laws enforced prior to every Thai family obtaining a motorcycle or a car/truck. Police used to make additional monies from their interest in 24 hour bars while they charge competition tea money to stay open the same hours. Tea money for business, bribes to get contracts, etc were at one time, in the 10% range. Even customs even seemed to accept your word on value if they spot checked you. We used to acknowledge the corruption/scams etc but as the amount was such a small number in the grand scale it was seen as more a inconvenience than corruption.

So yes, those who see Thailand in a more negative way than it was 10 or more years ago may be more astute than we who have lived here and the change is not so glaring. There are more traffic laws that can be enforced (automatic traffic signals), more land/house ownership regulations, more licenses, regulations on hours of business, smoking bans, building codes, etc.

The % increase in tea monies sought, and the jump to extorting the general public in what is perceived as all dealings with any one with a little authority has definitely changed my perception of Thailand in the past 12 years or so, compared to the 12 years before that.

[mark45y]

US Flying Fortresses were bombing Bangkok. The city was on fire. Thai diplomats were desperately trying to repeal their declaration of war against the US and Brits. British and Indian troops were on the Thai border ready to occupy Thailand. A treaty was on the table in Washington ceding Thailand to Britain.

Now that is paradise lost.

A year later. Everything is OK. The Brits stopped in for a while to send the Japanese home and then left.

Thais were building hotels for the post WW II expected tourist boom. Bangkok wasn’t on fire anymore. Everyone was happy.

I think the current problems pale in comparison.

I don't think it's a valid comparison. You're talking about something occurring during a nearly world-wide war during which Japan had been invaded by the Japanese, as compared to a situation that is occurring now that is wholly due to the Thais themselves. The situation you describe happened to Thailand. The situation occurring now is happening by Thailand.

Partly true but the Thai’s did ally themselves with the Japanese. The alternatives were grim but they already had a history of cooperating with the Japanese against the French during the Franco Thai war only a couple of years before. The Japanese helped the Thais get large amounts of French Indochina.

A Thai diplomat said upon the announcement of the Japanese alliance and declaration of war that he hoped the Thais would find a golden tongue to explain their actions when the Allies won the war.

If you look at causality numbers of Thais during WW II, I don’t think they minded having the Japanese as Allies as opposed to the numbers of deaths in Vietnam, Burma and Singapore to name but a few. You can check it out with Google. Along with the Franco Thai war and/or occupation of Burma by Thai troops and why the Thais wanted to occupy Burma. Hint the production of a certain product increased from 8 tons per year to 36 tons per year under the Thais.

It would be nice to say it was not the Thais fault but they were working hand and hand with the Japanese. None of the other countries in Asia cooperated. The Thais were Japan’s only voluntary ally.

So I think the comparison may be more valid than you think.

[philw]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. If I'm the only person on this forum who's had dealings with the police in an accident and only been dealt with in a straightforward manner then I've got a rather large hat I'll eat.

And apologies for coming across as rude but your advice about the nearest friendly Thai person hashing it out about what I'd have to pay is quite frankly laughable. I don't know what sort of friendly "shrinking violet" Thais you hang about with but my Thai wife, family and friends would either hash it out at the side of the road (in my favour) or come with me to the police station to sort it out there (in my favour). There's not a chance that they'd have me going home shelling out a single baht if I was in the right.

I'm sure there's other posters on here the same. I certainly hope so.

Don't eat the hat, you are not alone and you are absolutely correct, my family, friends and staff would react in the same way. ( over the years I've proved it )

I think there are thousands of foreigners in Thailand who would get nothing but help and support from their Thai relationships but probably they don't post on TV.............

ph

[nikkoid66]

No place is perfect

Thailand changes and is still the land of smile. I live here for a short time and it is a beautiful place compared to a lot of other place I've been traveling.

Do no stay in the past, yes now there is internet, and kids are playing video games, and Thailand is not a paradise for you anymore.

But for a lot of people here, it is still a wonderful place to live.

Just a word about justice, this concept does not exists anywhere on earth, the best way to get justice is avoid any kind of trouble!

:jap:

Edited July 11, 2010 by nikkoid66

[truethailand]

The problems started prior to 2005.

So, the premise is false.

I started noticing serious problems right about the time Thaksin was elected.

Things changed after that, and not for the better.

Agreed.

The situation started going south back in 2001 when the judiciary neglected their responsibilities in a democracy and cleared Thaksin of his obvious guilt on what amounted to the flimsiest of evidence. Until that time, there was a movement going on that people should be held more accountable. A good decision at that critical moment in history could have proven to all Thai people that nobody is above the law, independent of how popular or rich they might be. Sadly, that wasn't the lesson learned.

The peak occurred right then and there. After that point, it was obvious to some that the old ways could return if they attached themselves to Thaksin's coat tails, and he was riding high on popularity at the time. The gloves came off. Rule of law again started increasingly taking a back seat to corruption, and the fledgling attempt at people's democracy was destroyed.

It took several years of a continuously deteriorating situation for a coup finally to try and sort out this mess, but the damage was already done. The only way forward now is to remove the instigator completely from the scene and from the public psyche and try and reset the system. That is proving extremely difficult.

I don't know if it will even be possible until the main protagonists die. Another attempt could be decades away. Too bad for Thailand. It still has hope, but not in the near term.

Do you really believe that takky is the reason for Thailands problems..he is just part of it. Just my prediction ....There will be a catalyst that will see the army divide into at least 2 camps. Those that could not be trusted to remove red shirts and those that could murder red shirts and the fight that will ensue will make everything previous look like your daughters tea party. The outcome is hard to predict bcos on one side you will have the army conscripts(mainly)led by Seh Daeng friends amongst others, and the people and on the other you will have the army regulars(led by the real leaders of this country, about 25 army generals).

I just wrote the above bcos I am peed off about people talking about things getting better and reconcilliation..it aint happening folks. This government is now battoning down the hatches awaiting the impending catalyst. Armys that stage coups are only doing it to prevent democracy and retain their power(wealth).