Death Of A Nation? Paradise Lost? Death Of Paradise?

[byebyeblighty]

Lots of the stuff here is true, some I have never experienced. The thing is that I could list 100 things I dislike about every country, but for some reason people seem to concentrate on Thailands bad points moreso than other countries.

[true blue]

Reading some of the posters on TVF anybody would think that the " foreigners can't own land" rule was introduced the day after they arrived.

BTW with all due respects to the OP the "foreigners are going to be blamed in an accident" is another fallacy that's full of what makes the roses grow.

Sorry, but you are WRONG. Foreigners are even being blamed after the fact.

I have had TWO friends driving cars who were run in to by motorcycles . . .one of them was parked in a parking space.

BOTH were "charged" for the accident and had to pay.

There was another incident a while back in which a farang stopped to help at an accident scene . .and was charged! With the police involved. . .farang = easy money!

motor cyclist ran in to back of my car 5 year ago,while it was parked,insurance guy come fined the thai guy took his id card,and booked my car in for repair next day,easy.

[RPETER65]

Although I agree with most of the content of your post, I have quite different opinion for the general outlook for the future of Thailand.

1. With ford motors building a new plant in Thailand it seems as though all countries have not lost faith in the economic opportunities in Thailand.

2. If you put the tourist situation in perspective with the rest of the world you could see, although Thailand does have it's share of problems, I have been to countries far worse, and see tourists having a good time.Mexico is the murder and kidnapping capital of the world, yet there tuorist industry seems to be holding up. I have traveled to Burma, Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam, and although each of those countries have something to offer, I still prefer Thailand for a holiday. I have had no more trouble with the touts and tuk tuk drivers in Thailand than any where else, Thailand has always been freindly to me.

3. As pointed out by another poster the political situation has had it's problems for years, the only thing I see new here is that the current govt. seems to have the will to stop the violence and eventually bring stability back. Yes they have extended the emergency decry but they seem to be using it sparingly, they just don't want a repeat of the violence in Bangkok. They have put off the elections but what would be the point of elections before stability, just to return to more violent protest. Thailand needs a cooling of period so logic and commom sense can prevail.

4. I think the most harm will be done to Thailand by thye over zealous writers who don't have a good grasp on the reality of Thailand.

[MAJIC]

Reading some of the posters on TVF anybody would think that the " foreigners can't own land" rule was introduced the day after they arrived.

BTW with all due respects to the OP the "foreigners are going to be blamed in an accident" is another fallacy that's full of what makes the roses grow.

Sorry, but you are WRONG. Foreigners are even being blamed after the fact.

I have had TWO friends driving cars who were run in to by motorcycles . . .one of them was parked in a parking space.

BOTH were "charged" for the accident and had to pay.

There was another incident a while back in which a farang stopped to help at an accident scene . .and was charged! With the police involved. . .farang = easy money!

Agreed,and after finding myself in that position of having to take the blame/pay for what was not my fault,and several of my friends with similar experiences also,it is certainly no Urban Myth/Fallacy!

[Kf6vci]

Well, it seems to be "un-Thai" to send up and say Help, I don't understand this or that. Be it at the university or when someone asks whether to take this bus to XY. Smiles, nodding and wrong answers

Someone should compare the results of Thai universities to those in other countries. Seems some only know A and B. Enough said! It may look good on paper, but man, what a waste of time!

Hope that someone who wants to criticize the OP will do that step by step, not in a general and quick way.

[Pakboong]

The problems started prior to 2005.

So, the premise is false.

Paradise lost? What is this Thai Visa fashion to pretend that Thailand was full of nothing but loving, honest Buddhists until just recently and was somehow "better" in the past? Thailand has been known as a shady place for shady people for at least 50 years and probably long before.

In the 1970s the place was full of con artists and drug freaks on the Hippie Trail. Charles Sobhraj was murdering and robbing tourists and paying off the police to look the other way.

l have always loved living here, but - despite the complaints on the Internet - there was a lot more corruption and longterm visa hassles 20 years ago than there is today and just as much crime.

http://en.wikipedia....Charles_Sobhraj

As far as politics go, there have been numerous military coups and violent crackdowns (Black May for one) over the years. What is new about that? I would agree that the current situation might spin out of control, but we all thought the same thing in 1992.

How about when Thailand started the financial meltdown in this part of the world in 1997? That was mostly caused by a lack of honesty and that is just one example.

No change in my 37 year association with the country.

Don't get me wrong, I have always loved living here, but it has never been a shining beacon of democracy or human rights or unusual progress and the justice system has always been flawed. I just do not understand why so many members seem to think otherwise.

If you do not like Thailand, that is your right, but it has not been that much different for quite a while.

No change in my 37 years association with the country.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Pakboong

[thaisomchai]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. If I'm the only person on this forum who's had dealings with the police in an accident and only been dealt with in a straightforward manner then I've got a rather large hat I'll eat.

And apologies for coming across as rude but your advice about the nearest friendly Thai person hashing it out about what I'd have to pay is quite frankly laughable. I don't know what sort of friendly "shrinking violet" Thais you hang about with but my Thai wife, family and friends would either hash it out at the side of the road (in my favour) or come with me to the police station to sort it out there (in my favour). There's not a chance that they'd have me going home shelling out a single baht if I was in the right.

I'm sure there's other posters on here the same. I certainly hope so.

Lets see if any other cases of real-life positive dealings with the Thai police surface. I wish I could see a positive trend here . .I really do! But the examples of bad treatment seem to abound and cases like yours mca are in short supply. Sad but true. ( So far we are about six or seven to one in this thread)

As for my statement about letting the nearest friendly Thai handle it, you misinterpreted what I said . . .I MEANT your own Thai spouse ( I did say "spouse" there) and family and your OWN Thai friends. ( I wouldnt invite even friendly Thai strangers into it at all.) They will most certainly hash it out at the side of the road and get you off as cheaply as they can. My point was that a farang cant do this for himself.

[thaisomchai]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. If I'm the only person on this forum who's had dealings with the police in an accident and only been dealt with in a straightforward manner then I've got a rather large hat I'll eat.

And apologies for coming across as rude but your advice about the nearest friendly Thai person hashing it out about what I'd have to pay is quite frankly laughable. I don't know what sort of friendly "shrinking violet" Thais you hang about with but my Thai wife, family and friends would either hash it out at the side of the road (in my favour) or come with me to the police station to sort it out there (in my favour). There's not a chance that they'd have me going home shelling out a single baht if I was in the right.

I'm sure there's other posters on here the same. I certainly hope so.

Don't eat the hat, you are not alone and you are absolutely correct, my family, friends and staff would react in the same way. ( over the years I've proved it )

I think there are thousands of foreigners in Thailand who would get nothing but help and support from their Thai relationships but probably they don't post on TV.............

ph

EXACTLY! Thats what I said.

[Just1Voice]

In reflecting on many of the comments here, I think I should have started the OP with: "The 'perception' of Thailand was the closest thing to Paradise", as those of us who have been coming here for years, or who have lived here for any length of time, are well aware of the 'realities' of day to day life in Thailand.

This 'perception', while probably incorrect, was what was 'fed' to the rest of the world for "Amazing Thailand", and the world bought it. However now, with the international press coverage of events, as well as the internet, chat rooms and Tweeter, that 'perception' has been blown out of the water and people world wide (and not just those of us who live here) are seeing Thailand in the 'light of day', so to speak.

Is there corruption in Thailand? Yep, and it's been around a lot longer than any of us have, and it has become ingrained into all aspects of Thai life, top to bottom.

Can it be changed? Yes, but at the present time I don't see anyone who is qualified willing to step forward and do that.

Let's face it, there are still a lot of wonderful things about this country or so many of us wouldn't be living here the way we are. But it's also a fact that over the years there are many, perhaps too many, aspects that continue to grow worse with each passing day. And many of these things are now coming to light due to the rapidly expanding availability of communication world wide.

Thailand can no longer hide it's dirty laundry or sweep things under the carpet as they did in the past, and this presents a dilemma to the "powers that be" because now their actions are/can be, viewed by the entire world, and this is something they really don't know how to deal with, and really don't want to accept.

And until, or if, all out civil war breaks out, as far as I'm concerned, it's still the best place to live.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Just1Voice

[bonobo]

Reading some of the posters on TVF anybody would think that the " foreigners can't own land" rule was introduced the day after they arrived.

BTW with all due respects to the OP the "foreigners are going to be blamed in an accident" is another fallacy that's full of what makes the roses grow.

Sorry, but you are WRONG. Foreigners are even being blamed after the fact.

I have had TWO friends driving cars who were run in to by motorcycles . . .one of them was parked in a parking space.

BOTH were "charged" for the accident and had to pay.

There was another incident a while back in which a farang stopped to help at an accident scene . .and was charged! With the police involved. . .farang = easy money!

Agreed,and after finding myself in that position of having to take the blame/pay for what was not my fault,and several of my friends with similar experiences also,it is certainly no Urban Myth/Fallacy!

I have certainly met helpful police, but I was also run into by a motorcycle driver. He had no helmet, no lights, and tried to pass me from behind on the right when I was turning, turn signal blinking. The bike was ruined and the driver broke his foot. The cop who came to the scene saw the evidence and told the rider that the motorcycle driver tried to pass on the right in the oncoming lane and was at fault.

When he found out that the driver had no license nor insurance, and I had both, he changed his tune and charged me instead. I wanted to fight it, but my Thai business partner told me to let it go and let the insurance company just pay. I got the feeling that this was not having to do with me being a foreigner but rather the feeling that the motorcycle driver had suffered enough and if I had insurance, I wasn't out anything if they paid for his hospital visit.

[Berkshire]

While I applaud the ability to see the glass as half full, a smart man will appreciate there are those who are entitled to view it as half empty, because indeed it is!!!! The angle you view the glass does not change the content of the glass.

A smart man would worry about things that he has control over, and not dwell on the most negative aspects of which he has no control. The problem with Mr. J1V and others like him is that when they complain about wanting "change," many of the changes they propose would usually benefit themselves. That's why the opinions of foreigners are largely ignored. Expat's aren't really concerned about the vast majority of Thai's. There's an awful lot of hyperbole in the OPs opening comments and if you choose to, you can believe it and live your life accordingly. Up to you. Do understand that your opinion really doesn't mean squat in the overall scheme of things.

[Just1Voice]

While I applaud the ability to see the glass as half full, a smart man will appreciate there are those who are entitled to view it as half empty, because indeed it is!!!! The angle you view the glass does not change the content of the glass.

A smart man would worry about things that he has control over, and not dwell on the most negative aspects of which he has no control. The problem with Mr. J1V and others like him is that when they complain about wanting "change," many of the changes they propose would usually benefit themselves. That's why the opinions of foreigners are largely ignored. Expat's aren't really concerned about the vast majority of Thai's. There's an awful lot of hyperbole in the OPs opening comments and if you choose to, you can believe it and live your life accordingly. Up to you. Do understand that your opinion really doesn't mean squat in the overall scheme of things.

Interesting comment, as I don't see anywhere in my OP where I wrote about anything that would be of personal benefit to myself. I do hope you will take the time to show me where I have, instead of making a broad "generalized" statement with no factual basis behind it.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Just1Voice

[srisatch]

"Along with this there needs to be a serious attempt to change the "mai pen rai" attitude of the Thai people, as well as teaching them that they are wrong sometimes"

I only just came across this!!

Teaching them? Usual arrogant stuff?

Much of your factual observations are pretty much true. So what?

You say you 'know what you are talking about'...sure easy to say. Actually I think you know nothing about the way any Thai person thinks, the lives that they are born into and the world they negotiate. Do you speak Thai? Do you think Thai? Or think/speak Lao? I guess not.You are completely missing the mind set, both now and historically. Corruption? Look at bent politicians with their noses in the trough and corrupt fuzz in most western countries..let alone institutionalised business corruption....Just another westerner rant when it comes to 'opinion'....and most of the comments...I been here longer than you..well you should have learned a few things about people anywhere then.........all this old timer one upmanship...can't see why the forum gives air time to any of this....except as amusement

[Berkshire]

While I applaud the ability to see the glass as half full, a smart man will appreciate there are those who are entitled to view it as half empty, because indeed it is!!!! The angle you view the glass does not change the content of the glass.

A smart man would worry about things that he has control over, and not dwell on the most negative aspects of which he has no control. The problem with Mr. J1V and others like him is that when they complain about wanting "change," many of the changes they propose would usually benefit themselves. That's why the opinions of foreigners are largely ignored. Expat's aren't really concerned about the vast majority of Thai's. There's an awful lot of hyperbole in the OPs opening comments and if you choose to, you can believe it and live your life accordingly. Up to you. Do understand that your opinion really doesn't mean squat in the overall scheme of things.

Interesting comment, as I don't see anywhere in my OP where I wrote about anything that would be of personal benefit to myself. I do hope you will take the time to show me where I have, instead of making a broad "generalized" statement with no factual basis behind it.

Pretty much your entire section devoted to "Thai and foreigners," among other points. Any time an expat brings up foreign land ownership, dual pricing, and visa issues, you realize that any changes to these laws/policies really has no benefit to the average Thai. If anything, it could be detrimental (e.g., foreign land ownership). By the way, I just noticed in your piece the section about "a young Thai couple who both received Master's Degrees in English from a Thai University." I remember this discussion on a different thread. It's a rather bad example as I recall us discussing that an English degree from pretty much ANY university in the world would not get you much in terms of a high paying job in the US. And non-native English speaker(s) at that. This has no relation to the quality of education in Thailand.

[MikeyIdea]

In 2005 the national elections were hailed in the international media as the most fair and corruption free in Thai history

You are kidding, right?

Thank god I speak much more Thai than English for the last 10 years now so that I know how much bullsh_t that is, unlike international media and whoever wrote the above. Again guys, those who don't speak and understand enough Thai to watch and listen to Thai news in Thai should realise that you don't know enough and keep your voice down. It is not necessarily that the news come from TV of course but speaking in quick and good Thai to Thai people opens doors and suddenly you hear many things that doesn't match at all with what CNN and BBC says...

2005 - That's the year when friends at work reported that the demonstrators (before the election) in their home town in the north-east were paid 500 bath to demonstrate a few hours in support of Thaksin, many had never made as much money as that in such a short time before

2005 That's the year when a Thai friend who owns a small hotel in Chonburi told his staff that they could take leave but not all at the same time and asked them to please hurry back after the election. He also told them that he would not allow those who took several days off to come back again. Some of the guys answered back That's OK because we make more money voting then we do working for you

OP, please confirm that what you write by asking Thai people in Thai..., don't just write it because international media says so. Good Luck finding Thais confirming what international media wrote

Edited July 12, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[timo44]

My issues with the article are several:

The first has to do with the corruption comparisons. I mean, it seems by it's analogies to be saying Thaksin's corruption was less harmful in a one-on-one comparison to today's politicians..... garden snake vs viper. I would argue there is no single politician more corrupt in Thai history than Thaksin. Maybe there are more numerous corrupt polticians today that are making less money than Thaksin, which is amounting in more overall corruption in total. It may also be that the value of the economy monetarily amounts to more total corruption baht-wise. "Was Thaksin corrupt? Most likely he was." Most likely? That sums up the author's perception of Thaksin right there.

As far as the court decisions are concerned, lets not forget that there were multiple party dissolutions of Thaksin's parties before the coup. The dissolutions by the coup-appointed courts may or may not have been arrived at by an independent judiciary.

In comparing the violence of the Reds and the PAD, it seems the author is saying they were equally violent in nature. We have not witnessed anywhere near the level of violence from the PAD as from the Reds. Conversely, most violence involving non-Reds was directed at them, not instigated by them. There are numerous examples from the recent protest and it's build-up showing the violent nature of the Reds, at least of their leaders. You had Reds pulling soliders out of trucks and beating them to death, Red leaders preaching from the stage to burn and kill, the invasion of Chula Hospital including sexual assaults of nurses, grenade attacks on policemens' flats, and grenade attacks on unarmed multicolor protesters, just to name a few.

I do agree that the law regarding unlawful protests etc should be applied equally. The gov't. of Somchai should also shoulder part of the blame for its own failures in prosecuting the PAD during it's tenure.

Edited July 12, 2010 by timo44

[warorot]

But education, business red tape, corruption, infrastructure, health care, availability of goods, quality of police are all much much worse in Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines than Thailand

...........................................................

education is much much worse in the phil than in thailand? i beg your pardon? have you even been there? i have taugth in thailand for 5 years now. they may have better school facilities, but the students and their system... duh! education in thailand is spoon feeding and memorization. they are not taught how to make analytical thinking. duh! students cant even question their teachers. and teachers cant questions their directors. blah!

and health care??? excuse me. im a physcial therapist. health care here is pure business. doctors, nurses, therapists dont have real compassion for their patients. nurses wearing short skirts and high heels...

education and health care in thailand is pure business. no real emapathy from those who provide them. they have good facilities, in some ways, but that is all there is.

have you even read "wondering into thai culture" book?

and why would you compare thailand with war-torn cambodia or communist-ruled laos or vietnam? why would you even compare thailand to other country when these other countries have nothing to do with what thailand is or is becoming. duh! these other countires have threir own problems but they are not part of the picture.

focus, mister. have long have you been here again?

Edited July 12, 2010 by warorot

[thaibeachlovers]

While I applaud the ability to see the glass as half full, a smart man will appreciate there are those who are entitled to view it as half empty, because indeed it is!!!! The angle you view the glass does not change the content of the glass.

A smart man would worry about things that he has control over, and not dwell on the most negative aspects of which he has no control. The problem with Mr. J1V and others like him is that when they complain about wanting "change," many of the changes they propose would usually benefit themselves. That's why the opinions of foreigners are largely ignored. Expat's aren't really concerned about the vast majority of Thai's. There's an awful lot of hyperbole in the OPs opening comments and if you choose to, you can believe it and live your life accordingly. Up to you. Do understand that your opinion really doesn't mean squat in the overall scheme of things.

I agree with most of what you wrote.

I, and I presume most farangs who "love" Thailand, want to stay here based on what WE enjoy, and are not here to improve the lives of the locals. In fact, if Thailand became a copy of my home country, I would not stay here, as it would not be the place I "love" anymore, despite being "better" for the locals.

So, in fact, my idea of LOS as a Paradise is based on it NOT changing too much from what it was in the 90s.

[Ulysses G.]

'warorot' date='2010-07-12 14:19' timestamp='1278919196' post='3744002']

But education, business red tape, corruption, infrastructure, health care, availability of goods, quality of police are all much much worse in Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines than Thailand

...........................................................

focus, mister. have long have you been here again?

Long enough to know what he is talking about - as he is correct.

[MikeyIdea]

While I applaud the ability to see the glass as half full, a smart man will appreciate there are those who are entitled to view it as half empty, because indeed it is!!!! The angle you view the glass does not change the content of the glass.

A smart man would worry about things that he has control over, and not dwell on the most negative aspects of which he has no control. The problem with Mr. J1V and others like him is that when they complain about wanting "change," many of the changes they propose would usually benefit themselves. That's why the opinions of foreigners are largely ignored. Expat's aren't really concerned about the vast majority of Thai's. There's an awful lot of hyperbole in the OPs opening comments and if you choose to, you can believe it and live your life accordingly. Up to you. Do understand that your opinion really doesn't mean squat in the overall scheme of things.

I agree with most of what you wrote.

I, and I presume most farangs who "love" Thailand, want to stay here based on what WE enjoy, and are not here to improve the lives of the locals. In fact, if Thailand became a copy of my home country, I would not stay here, as it would not be the place I "love" anymore, despite being "better" for the locals.

So, in fact, my idea of LOS as a Paradise is based on it NOT changing too much from what it was in the 90s.

Nicely written. I did not come to Thailand to change the Thai's, they should be what they want to be. I hope they do not become like westerners, where should I move then?

As to the poor - Of course I feel sorry for poor people working hard and not getting much in return, and I feel especially sorry for the children of the poor hard working people who have parents who simply do not see any need to change anything in their teaching style and still protect their children from drowning by making them afraid of water. I am fortunate not to live in a nice moo baan but in a working class neighbourhood with very nice and hard working people and we do meet and talk every day. I politely recommended them to buy a small book about good techniques to bring up children many years ago, you know, the type costing less than a hundred bath. No one has bough a single one of course. We sit 10 years later and 5 years after my own daughter was born and we joke about how different our children are and sometimes the same neighbours who didn't buy a book point out that my daughter is more forward and capable than the 7 year old down the street. They still say that they are short on money and still buy beer every day instead of buying a book and still teach their children the same way their parents did, because they want to. I am fine with that. They have also laughed more than I have the last 10 years. And they have also gotten a better life, albeit materialistically less than I have. And somehow I wonder if their children won't laugh more in their life than my daughter will. That is one of the things that they have taught me that I try to teach my daughter

I have no problem with these people staying the way they are, if that is what they want. Who am I to want to change them? I wouldn't mind if they stopped scaring their children and started teaching them instead and I wouldn't mind if they stopped hitting them, but then, they don't hit hard anyway, just to scare them a bit - And it is their choice

Edited July 12, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[phetaroi]

A smart man would worry about things that he has control over, and not dwell on the most negative aspects of which he has no control. The problem with Mr. J1V and others like him is that when they complain about wanting "change," many of the changes they propose would usually benefit themselves. That's why the opinions of foreigners are largely ignored. Expat's aren't really concerned about the vast majority of Thai's. There's an awful lot of hyperbole in the OPs opening comments and if you choose to, you can believe it and live your life accordingly. Up to you. Do understand that your opinion really doesn't mean squat in the overall scheme of things.

I quite disagree. If you have control over something, there's little reason to worry about it. Indeed, it's a lack of control that causes most people to worry. You are probably correct that expats aren't really concerned about most Thais, and the Thais return the favor and have little real interest in the expat.

[MikeyIdea]

I was looking at the title of this thread - Death Of A Nation? Paradise Lost? Death Of Paradise? No longer the Land of Smiles and was just thinking...

I can find very few things on this earth that are further away from the truth than that phrase

Death Of A Nation? - Certainly not

Paradise Lost? - Certainly not

Death Of Paradise? - Certainly not

No longer the Land of Smiles - Certainly not

Smile

[phetaroi]

Nicely written. I did not come to Thailand to change the Thai's, they should be what they want to be....

...

I have no problem with these people staying the way they are, if that is what they want. Who am I to want to change them?

I think you're right that Thai people and the Thai nation should be who they want to be and what the nation wants to be. It isn't up to us to change them, and in fact, we shouldn't try to change their culture.

Balancing that, however, is whether or not what the Thais perceive as their place in the world is very accurate, and it is also not up to people and countries in the international community to agree with, approve of, or respect the Thai people or the Thai nation.

During the demonstrations, at one point a rather big deal was made about the PM not being able to attend an international conference about nuclear weapons. I thought at the time, who cares. They're not even players in that particular game.

The Thais are often insulted by the world's view of Thailand's prostitution and copyright infringement and bribery situations (to mention just 3 issues). Now, on a personal level, I don't much care whether they modernize their thinking and behaviors in these three areas. But, why pretend it's not an issue? Gee -- are they blind? I see and am approached by hookers along Sukhumvit in Nana when I walk to Bumrungrad Hospital...it's just the police who can't see that it happens. Pornography is illegal in Thailand, right? Are you telling me that you haven't been OPENLY offered video porn in Pantip Plaza? It's only the police and government that apparently can't see that law being OPENLY broken on a CONSTANT and DAILY basis. Copyright infringement? Basically the Thai government says it doesn't really happen anymore in Thailand...except you and I see it regularly and know it happens...it's just the police who can't see it. Is there anyone living in Thailand who doesn't see bribery as a way of life?

And therein lies the problem, as I see it. It's not that there aren't wonderful things about Thailand. I think the manner in which they've preserved their national historic sites is commendable. Their national parks -- quite advanced for a third world country. A rather robust agricultural and marketing system. And many more things. But it's the negatives that remain unsolved that concern me BECAUSE THE WORLD IS EXPECTED TO IGNORE THAT THOSE NEGATIVE ISSUES EVEN EXIST. For example, I have yet to meet a single Thai person who is actually concerned with the separatist movement in the provinces of Yala, Narithawat, and Pattani...despite a death toll that appears to be over 4,000 by this time, and continues to grow almost every day through murders, bombings, and even beheadings. But it's not pleasant...pretend it isn't there. And that is what I fear will also happen with the issues that caused the riots of May 19. In the long run, little will be done (unless, of course, a crisis situations reinvigorates itself).

Let me give you a smaller example. A well-educated Thai government official that I know works in a capacity where he is often involved in the purchasing of large contracts of computer software. One evening he asked if I had any idea why many of the western software manufacturers didn't want to offer their products for sale to the Thai government. I said that my view was that a major reason was "because there's so much software piracy in Thailand." His response was, "You shouldn't talk about things like that and you don't love Thailand."

And that brings us back to my initial point in this posting -- we shouldn't attempt to change Thais or Thailand. It's their country. But don't expect to be respected by other people in the world and other nations if your country doesn't meet international standards.

[bonobo]

And that brings us back to my initial point in this posting -- we shouldn't attempt to change Thais or Thailand.  It's their country.  But don't expect to be respected by other people in the world and other nations if your country doesn't meet international standards.

I agree that for most things, it is not up to foreigners to change another country or its peoples. However, sometimes it is.

Not Thailand, but I hold that executing adulterers in patently wrong, as is executing a 7-year-old for "spying."  I hold that refusing to allow people to teach anti-HIV measures in India because that infers that Indians have sex outside of marriage is wrong.  I think  that allowing pollution to destroy a river and ruining the life of those other countries' peoples downstream to make a living is wrong.  And Thailand has a few things which are also  wrong, in my humble opinion.  You can shout "culture" all you want, but some things are just wrong.  And even as an outsider, people can act in ways which might help change those wrongs.

People in some tribes in New Guinea practiced cannibalism.  They also suffered from kuru from eating the brains of others.  Western governments, aghast at the practice, tried to stamp it out as did the PNG government upon independence.  Whether the act of cannibalism, as practiced there was morally right or wrong can be subject to debate.  But what is pretty clear is that kuru has basically disappeared in PNG.  So something good has resulted in interference by outsiders.

I am not sure where the dividing line between right and wrong really is.  What is OK and what is not. But some things should be stopped, and anyone who has the power to influence them should do so.

[MikeyIdea]

Phetaroi, you write well but still, I think most of the things you write about don't matter, because there is an easy solution. Don't look and you won't see

One thing you write I don't agree with - "But, why pretend it's not an issue?" - I think that's wrong. Who said they pretent it's not an issue? Most Thais don't don't, they just don't look - totally different thing actually

Another thing - "Is there anyone living in Thailand who doesn't see bribery as a way of life?" - Yes, exactly, it's a system. Newly examined police officers in Bangkok make a little over 4,000 bath per month, have you ever tried to support a family with children on a little over 4,000 bath per month? It's no wonder the Thais often use the word "eat" to describe corruption. And it is in Thai eyes not entirely a bad word, it's much softer because they know it's a necessity

And - "BECAUSE THE WORLD IS EXPECTED TO IGNORE THAT THOSE NEGATIVE ISSUES EVEN EXIST" - Hmmm, who says that Thais expect the world to ignore? I don't think they do. That's what you think they do, themselves they just think something like - Why does he make himself unhappy by looking for bad things... The Thais actually don't care that much if westerners ignore or not actually, but don't be impolite please. Fact is that it is a bit impolite to voice things like that so I am not surprised that your friend reacted the way he did. And of course Thais feel a bit ashamed if you do voice it. So why do it? Don't look and you won't see

I couldn't care less if Thailand meets international standards or not

I enjoy reading your posts Phetaroi, no hard feelings because we don't agree on this one I hope

[Valdezugar]

As to the poor - Of course I feel sorry for poor people working hard and not getting much in return, and I feel especially sorry for the children of the poor hard working people who have parents who simply do not see any need to change anything in their teaching style and still protect their children from drowning by making them afraid of water. I am fortunate not to live in a nice moo baan but in a working class neighbourhood with very nice and hard working people and we do meet and talk every day. I politely recommended them to buy a small book about good techniques to bring up children many years ago, you know, the type costing less than a hundred bath. No one has bough a single one of course. We sit 10 years later and 5 years after my own daughter was born and we joke about how different our children are and sometimes the same neighbours who didn't buy a book point out that my daughter is more forward and capable than the 7 year old down the street. They still say that they are short on money and still buy beer every day instead of buying a book and still teach their children the same way their parents did, because they want to. I am fine with that. They have also laughed more than I have the last 10 years. And they have also gotten a better life, albeit materialistically less than I have. And somehow I wonder if their children won't laugh more in their life than my daughter will. That is one of the things that they have taught me that I try to teach my daughter

I think your comments about poor people in Thailand is true for most poor people in most countries. Most poor areas I have been to you will find parents who would head for the local water hole with their wages to settle their debt and then go home to see if there's any left to buy food. It's not only unique to Thailand.

[licentiapoetica]

I read this article on PPT or it was referred and linked to from PPT - so the OP didn't write it himself.

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PPT:

thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com

[MikeyIdea]

But some things should be stopped, and anyone who has the power to influence them should do so

It will have to be something very drastic, very drastic indeed before I can agree with that. Cannibalism is a good sample actually, child pornography and slavery are two more candidates but I can't think of that many more actually

[MikeyIdea]

As to the poor - Of course I feel sorry for poor people working hard and not getting much in return, and I feel especially sorry for the children of the poor hard working people who have parents who simply do not see any need to change anything in their teaching style and still protect their children from drowning by making them afraid of water. I am fortunate not to live in a nice moo baan but in a working class neighbourhood with very nice and hard working people and we do meet and talk every day. I politely recommended them to buy a small book about good techniques to bring up children many years ago, you know, the type costing less than a hundred bath. No one has bough a single one of course. We sit 10 years later and 5 years after my own daughter was born and we joke about how different our children are and sometimes the same neighbours who didn't buy a book point out that my daughter is more forward and capable than the 7 year old down the street. They still say that they are short on money and still buy beer every day instead of buying a book and still teach their children the same way their parents did, because they want to. I am fine with that. They have also laughed more than I have the last 10 years. And they have also gotten a better life, albeit materialistically less than I have. And somehow I wonder if their children won't laugh more in their life than my daughter will. That is one of the things that they have taught me that I try to teach my daughter

I think your comments about poor people in Thailand is true for most poor people in most countries. Most poor areas I have been to you will find parents who would head for the local water hole with their wages to settle their debt and then go home to see if there's any left to buy food. It's not only unique to Thailand.

You miss one thing; there's enough money to buy beer every day, well 5 days a week anyway

But their life is their choice and as I write, they are happy as are their chidren. I get happy when I look at them, they are great friendly people and one of the reasons I love Thailand

You're right, the same style (attitude) exist eveywhere among poor, I can't even say that they are (entirely) wrong any longer

Edit: Note that I don't use the word attitude in an entirely negative way at all

Edited July 12, 2010 by MikeyIdea

[Just1Voice]

I read this article on PPT or it was referred and linked to from PPT - so the OP didn't write it himself.

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PPT:

thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com

I don't know where you saw it, but I beg to differ because I wrote every word of this myself. I'm not in the habit of "copy/pasting" or plagiarism. I also sent it to Post Bag of Bangkok Post, and to another form of which I participate.