Death Of A Nation? Paradise Lost? Death Of Paradise?

[Voice]

Hello Just-1-voice, it had been a long time since I been here. Didn’t realise that you still here as many of us left for another website. I still active in BP forum with TZ now and again and the same with villager.

Yes, you are quite right about Thailand since the yellow and the red protesters have taken over our street in Bangkok. Even though things seem to be very quit in Bangkok but it isn’t far from being peaceful nation. Few days ago BBC still discussed about Thailand democracy and the suppression of freedom to protest. As long as they still talking about our country Thailand will and always be in the eye of whole world and international media. I hear some say that Thai should live their life as they wanted but in reality our way isn’t work too well for us or standard that can be accept by the democratic system in the world. Yes it our culture & our mentality that has play very important part of this democracy. The elites, the establishment still won’t let common people have their say. Power hunger and conflict of interest has spread now to even common people. As we all have advance ourselves and better inform by foreign Medias and the example of afar through our television. Through this information our younger generation has become more aware of what they have been missing. So they all are crying out for better life and better freedom. As far as the poor of Thailand is concern they also want a better life too. It isn’t very much what they ask for. They only want a better living condition and able to make a living. Water is the essential thing in our agricultures way of lives yet in 2010 they still having problem find the water to feed their lands. As far as the education is concern we still need to develop a better way to teach our children but because of our culture & mentality teaching became some what hindered by Thai way of seeing thing. It has become too personal which self interest became more important than children welfare. Yes we need to survive but for our children future and our country future they should stop think about themselves first. The government too should think about it people before themselves. Corruption has been part of our lives as most has accepted. But in deep emotion they would like to live their life without it (corruption). If the country could provide it own citizen a better life and better standard of living I don’t think people would came out in protest. We haven’t made good example to our next generations when it come to self interest. The most powerful individual would use their power to abuse the system & the law. We they argue we all suffer. There are talks about civil war within the rank of media which I find it very worrying indeed. Thing is too quite for my liking and the government doesn’t seem to be doing anything to make peace with their opposition. Let’s hope we don’t have to come to that (civil war) we have too many life lost so far. And war isn’t a solution to our problem.

Voice

[dumball]

Voice , I enjoyed reading your comments from a true Thai point of view , I have not seen much from regular Thai that has made any real sense , they have always been more concerned with history than with the factual life and living of today , please come back and write some more interesting thoughts of yours , some of need your guidance .

[bonobo]

But some things should be stopped, and anyone who has the power to influence them should do so

It will have to be something very drastic, very drastic indeed before I can agree with that. Cannibalism is a good sample actually, child pornography and slavery are two more candidates but I can't think of that many more actually

As I wrote, I don't know where the line of demarcation would be.  And actually, as far as cannibalism, personally, I won't judge a group who eats their naturally dead.  Disgusting to me, maybe, but as an effort to keep loved ones alive forever, who am I to say it is wrong?  But in the PNG case, the fact that cannibalism was mostly stamped out has had a direct effect on squashing a life-threatening disease.  And killing people from other tribes to eat (and steal their life-force) would certainly cross my boundary of right and wrong.

There is a TV member here, a former US serviceman, who went to Chiapas to stand between armed troops and the Indians at whom the troops were firing.  He didn't do anything else, just stood between them.  I see nothing wrong with this.  He acted on his conscience to right what he perceived as a wrong.

Maybe if people had done that in Burundi or Rwanda, things might have turned out differently.

Slavery and abuse of children in any form, sure.  But I can add genocide, destruction of the environment, keeping women in a second-class position, corruption, and others to the list.

[Just1Voice]

Hello Just-1-voice, it had been a long time since I been here. Didn't realise that you still here as many of us left for another website. I still active in BP forum with TZ now and again and the same with villager.

Yes, you are quite right about Thailand since the yellow and the red protesters have taken over our street in Bangkok. Even though things seem to be very quit in Bangkok but it isn't far from being peaceful nation. Few days ago BBC still discussed about Thailand democracy and the suppression of freedom to protest. As long as they still talking about our country Thailand will and always be in the eye of whole world and international media. I hear some say that Thai should live their life as they wanted but in reality our way isn't work too well for us or standard that can be accept by the democratic system in the world. Yes it our culture & our mentality that has play very important part of this democracy. The elites, the establishment still won't let common people have their say. Power hunger and conflict of interest has spread now to even common people. As we all have advance ourselves and better inform by foreign Medias and the example of afar through our television. Through this information our younger generation has become more aware of what they have been missing. So they all are crying out for better life and better freedom. As far as the poor of Thailand is concern they also want a better life too. It isn't very much what they ask for. They only want a better living condition and able to make a living. Water is the essential thing in our agricultures way of lives yet in 2010 they still having problem find the water to feed their lands. As far as the education is concern we still need to develop a better way to teach our children but because of our culture & mentality teaching became some what hindered by Thai way of seeing thing. It has become too personal which self interest became more important than children welfare. Yes we need to survive but for our children future and our country future they should stop think about themselves first. The government too should think about it people before themselves. Corruption has been part of our lives as most has accepted. But in deep emotion they would like to live their life without it (corruption). If the country could provide it own citizen a better life and better standard of living I don't think people would came out in protest. We haven't made good example to our next generations when it come to self interest. The most powerful individual would use their power to abuse the system & the law. We they argue we all suffer. There are talks about civil war within the rank of media which I find it very worrying indeed. Thing is too quite for my liking and the government doesn't seem to be doing anything to make peace with their opposition. Let's hope we don't have to come to that (civil war) we have too many life lost so far. And war isn't a solution to our problem.

Voice

Hello, Voice.

As always, it is good to read the things you write and I have always respected your comments and perspectives, as well as those of TZ, because they come from the hearts of two of the best Thai I know and respect. A lot of others, both Thai and farang, could learn much from you and TZ if they would take the time to truly listen.

While my original OP has drawn a lot of comments, some positive, some negative, the one I find most "amusing" is the one were I have been accused of submitting a "non original" post, and that I took this from somewhere else. In other words, plagiarism. I think you, TZ, Ink, and a few others know me, and my writings, well enough to laugh at that as well.

When I look at your perspective on things it bothers me to think that things are not over, and may be far from over in both the political and social strife, and that there could be further violence to come, as no one truly wants to see that happen with Thai fighting Thai. Unfortunately, if you remember, that is a scenario I wrote about months ago in the BP forum as a possibility. However, now, as then, I truly hope that does not happen.

All we can do is wait and see, and hope for the best.

You have my number. Give me a call sometime.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Just1Voice

[MikeyIdea]

But some things should be stopped, and anyone who has the power to influence them should do so

It will have to be something very drastic, very drastic indeed before I can agree with that. Cannibalism is a good sample actually, child pornography and slavery are two more candidates but I can't think of that many more actually

As I wrote, I don't know where the line of demarcation would be. And actually, as far as cannibalism, personally, I won't judge a group who eats their naturally dead. Disgusting to me, maybe, but as an effort to keep loved ones alive forever, who am I to say it is wrong? But in the PNG case, the fact that cannibalism was mostly stamped out has had a direct effect on squashing a life-threatening disease. And killing people from other tribes to eat (and steal their life-force) would certainly cross my boundary of right and wrong.

There is a TV member here, a former US serviceman, who went to Chiapas to stand between armed troops and the Indians at whom the troops were firing. He didn't do anything else, just stood between them. I see nothing wrong with this. He acted on his conscience to right what he perceived as a wrong.

Maybe if people had done that in Burundi or Rwanda, things might have turned out differently.

Slavery and abuse of children in any form, sure. But I can add genocide, destruction of the environment, keeping women in a second-class position, corruption, and others to the list.

I disagree with some things you say: By western standards, many poor in Thailand abuse their children every day, deliberately destroying their self confidence to make them easy to control and to protect them too of course. You write - Abuse of children in any form, do you mean that you think you have the right to interfere in the way poor Thai parents bring up their children? Well, it surely makes the poor children stay poor and it surely makes me sad to see children be made crying every day almost only because of what, by western standards, simply is bad and lazy parenting. It surely is detrimental for the future success of the child (but perhaps not future happiness). Regardless, I strongly disagree with that a westerner have the right to interfere with how poor Thai parents bring up their children, I have been here for way too long to only see the narrow-minded western view. Yes, the poor will stay poor of course, but they will respect their parents regardless of if the parents deserve respect or not (which is desireable) and they will - probably - be better at grabbing the moment and enjoy life more than most westerners. Who are we to say that they are wrong?

"keeping women in a second-class position" is not really a Thai problem, the majority of smaller businesses in Thailand are run by the female side of the family and they also often handle the money. Laws in Thailand already protect e.g. mothers and childrens rights better than most western countries do (sole custody for mother unless legally married and a juvenile court system that really takes decisions in the best interest of the child). By a western view point applicable in Islamist countries perhaps but is it really true behind the scene? Yes, keeping women in a second-class position is of course undesireable but not for westerners to poke their noses into

Corruption... Who are you to tell a new policemen in Bangkok that he should take care of his wife and children on a bit over 4,000 bath per month salary? Do it yourself instead. I strongly agree with you that corruption is undesireable but I also strongly disagree with you that it is for westerners to judge. I have had too many friends and relatives who are policemen to think that way

[MikeyIdea]

Hello Just-1-voice, it had been a long time since I been here. Didn't realise that you still here as many of us left for another website. I still active in BP forum with TZ now and again and the same with villager.

Yes, you are quite right about Thailand since the yellow and the red protesters have taken over our street in Bangkok. Even though things seem to be very quit in Bangkok but it isn't far from being peaceful nation. Few days ago BBC still discussed about Thailand democracy and the suppression of freedom to protest. As long as they still talking about our country Thailand will and always be in the eye of whole world and international media. I hear some say that Thai should live their life as they wanted but in reality our way isn't work too well for us or standard that can be accept by the democratic system in the world. Yes it our culture & our mentality that has play very important part of this democracy. The elites, the establishment still won't let common people have their say. Power hunger and conflict of interest has spread now to even common people. As we all have advance ourselves and better inform by foreign Medias and the example of afar through our television. Through this information our younger generation has become more aware of what they have been missing. So they all are crying out for better life and better freedom. As far as the poor of Thailand is concern they also want a better life too. It isn't very much what they ask for. They only want a better living condition and able to make a living. Water is the essential thing in our agricultures way of lives yet in 2010 they still having problem find the water to feed their lands. As far as the education is concern we still need to develop a better way to teach our children but because of our culture & mentality teaching became some what hindered by Thai way of seeing thing. It has become too personal which self interest became more important than children welfare. Yes we need to survive but for our children future and our country future they should stop think about themselves first. The government too should think about it people before themselves. Corruption has been part of our lives as most has accepted. But in deep emotion they would like to live their life without it (corruption). If the country could provide it own citizen a better life and better standard of living I don't think people would came out in protest. We haven't made good example to our next generations when it come to self interest. The most powerful individual would use their power to abuse the system & the law. We they argue we all suffer. There are talks about civil war within the rank of media which I find it very worrying indeed. Thing is too quite for my liking and the government doesn't seem to be doing anything to make peace with their opposition. Let's hope we don't have to come to that (civil war) we have too many life lost so far. And war isn't a solution to our problem.

Voice

Excellent English to be Thai, Oxford or Cambridge?

Have a look at the 7 posts this guy has made and you will see that he took his first breath on ThaiVisa the 20th of May this year, what happened the 19th?

[bonobo]

But some things should be stopped, and anyone who has the power to influence them should do so

It will have to be something very drastic, very drastic indeed before I can agree with that. Cannibalism is a good sample actually, child pornography and slavery are two more candidates but I can't think of that many more actually

As I wrote, I don't know where the line of demarcation would be. And actually, as far as cannibalism, personally, I won't judge a group who eats their naturally dead. Disgusting to me, maybe, but as an effort to keep loved ones alive forever, who am I to say it is wrong? But in the PNG case, the fact that cannibalism was mostly stamped out has had a direct effect on squashing a life-threatening disease. And killing people from other tribes to eat (and steal their life-force) would certainly cross my boundary of right and wrong.

There is a TV member here, a former US serviceman, who went to Chiapas to stand between armed troops and the Indians at whom the troops were firing. He didn't do anything else, just stood between them. I see nothing wrong with this. He acted on his conscience to right what he perceived as a wrong.

Maybe if people had done that in Burundi or Rwanda, things might have turned out differently.

Slavery and abuse of children in any form, sure. But I can add genocide, destruction of the environment, keeping women in a second-class position, corruption, and others to the list.

I disagree with some things you say: By western standards, many poor in Thailand abuse their children every day, deliberately destroying their self confidence to make them easy to control and to protect them too of course. You write - Abuse of children in any form, do you mean that you think you have the right to interfere in the way poor Thai parents bring up their children? Well, it surely makes the poor children stay poor and it surely makes me sad to see children be made crying every day almost only because of what, by western standards, simply is bad and lazy parenting. It surely is detrimental for the future success of the child (but perhaps not future happiness). Regardless, I strongly disagree with that a westerner have the right to interfere with how poor Thai parents bring up their children, I have been here for way too long to only see the narrow-minded western view. Yes, the poor will stay poor of course, but they will respect their parents regardless of if the parents deserve respect or not (which is desireable) and they will - probably - be better at grabbing the moment and enjoy life more than most westerners. Who are we to say that they are wrong?

"keeping women in a second-class position" is not really a Thai problem, the majority of smaller businesses in Thailand are run by the female side of the family and they also often handle the money. Laws in Thailand already protect e.g. mothers and childrens rights better than most western countries do (sole custody for mother unless legally married and a juvenile court system that really takes decisions in the best interest of the child). By a western view point applicable in Islamist countries perhaps but is it really true behind the scene? Yes, keeping women in a second-class position is of course undesireable but not for westerners to poke their noses into

Corruption... Who are you to tell a new policemen in Bangkok that he should take care of his wife and children on a bit over 4,000 bath per month salary? Do it yourself instead. I strongly agree with you that corruption is undesireable but I also strongly disagree with you that it is for westerners to judge. I have had too many friends and relatives who are policemen to think that way

And now you are reading my words and putting your own slant to them, assuming what I might mean instead of taking them at face value.

I already wrote that the line of demarcation is vague, and I certainly don't know where it is. For you to assume that I mean westerners should step in to stop Thai parenting is far from the truth. I was responding to a general claim on child pornography (not directed at Thais, even.) So i wrote abuse, to encompass child prostitution, child soldiers (a much bigger problems than many would believe) child servitude, and the like.

As for women, once again, I did not specify Thailand, but merely stated it as a reason why some people might "stick their noses into it." If I had the wherewithal, for example, to make a woman's testimony on getting raped in some Arab countries carry the same weight as that of a man's, I would.

Corruption is endemic, and rules such as the US's Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, while harmful to American business, are means to limit the financial gains of the uber-corrupt. They have no impact on the Thai policmen trying to make his payment up the chain of command.

Don't assume I feel the westerner needs to come to Thailand to fix it. Take my words at face value. There are some universal wrongs that anyone needs to right, if they have the chance. I take no issue with the Dali Lama nor the Pope nor anyone else, for example, making their views known on capital punishment in the USA. They see capital punishment as a universal wrong, and they have the platform to be heard on their views. My posts are not condescending lectures on Western good, Thai bad. It is merely that I disagree with the 100% fealty to the idea that if something is done within a cultural context, then it is correct and no one from outside of the culture should "stick his nose into it."

[MikeyIdea]

quote But some things should be stopped, and anyone who has the power to influence them should do so /quote

It will have to be something very drastic, very drastic indeed before I can agree with that. Cannibalism is a good sample actually, child pornography and slavery are two more candidates but I can't think of that many more actually

As I wrote, I don't know where the line of demarcation would be. And actually, as far as cannibalism, personally, I won't judge a group who eats their naturally dead. Disgusting to me, maybe, but as an effort to keep loved ones alive forever, who am I to say it is wrong? But in the PNG case, the fact that cannibalism was mostly stamped out has had a direct effect on squashing a life-threatening disease. And killing people from other tribes to eat (and steal their life-force) would certainly cross my boundary of right and wrong.

There is a TV member here, a former US serviceman, who went to Chiapas to stand between armed troops and the Indians at whom the troops were firing. He didn't do anything else, just stood between them. I see nothing wrong with this. He acted on his conscience to right what he perceived as a wrong.

Maybe if people had done that in Burundi or Rwanda, things might have turned out differently.

Slavery and abuse of children in any form, sure. But I can add genocide, destruction of the environment, keeping women in a second-class position, corruption, and others to the list.

I disagree with some things you say: By western standards, many poor in Thailand abuse their children every day, deliberately destroying their self confidence to make them easy to control and to protect them too of course. You write - Abuse of children in any form, do you mean that you think you have the right to interfere in the way poor Thai parents bring up their children? Well, it surely makes the poor children stay poor and it surely makes me sad to see children be made crying every day almost only because of what, by western standards, simply is bad and lazy parenting. It surely is detrimental for the future success of the child (but perhaps not future happiness). Regardless, I strongly disagree with that a westerner have the right to interfere with how poor Thai parents bring up their children, I have been here for way too long to only see the narrow-minded western view. Yes, the poor will stay poor of course, but they will respect their parents regardless of if the parents deserve respect or not (which is desireable) and they will - probably - be better at grabbing the moment and enjoy life more than most westerners. Who are we to say that they are wrong?

"keeping women in a second-class position" is not really a Thai problem, the majority of smaller businesses in Thailand are run by the female side of the family and they also often handle the money. Laws in Thailand already protect e.g. mothers and childrens rights better than most western countries do (sole custody for mother unless legally married and a juvenile court system that really takes decisions in the best interest of the child). By a western view point applicable in Islamist countries perhaps but is it really true behind the scene? Yes, keeping women in a second-class position is of course undesireable but not for westerners to poke their noses into

Corruption... Who are you to tell a new policemen in Bangkok that he should take care of his wife and children on a bit over 4,000 bath per month salary? Do it yourself instead. I strongly agree with you that corruption is undesireable but I also strongly disagree with you that it is for westerners to judge. I have had too many friends and relatives who are policemen to think that way

And now you are reading my words and putting your own slant to them, assuming what I might mean instead of taking them at face value.

I already wrote that the line of demarcation is vague, and I certainly don't know where it is. For you to assume that I mean westerners should step in to stop Thai parenting is far from the truth. I was responding to a general claim on child pornography (not directed at Thais, even.) So i wrote abuse, to encompass child prostitution, child soldiers (a much bigger problems than many would believe) child servitude, and the like.

As for women, once again, I did not specify Thailand, but merely stated it as a reason why some people might "stick their noses into it." If I had the wherewithal, for example, to make a woman's testimony on getting raped in some Arab countries carry the same weight as that of a mans, I would.

Corruption is endemic, and rules such as the US's Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, while harmful to American business, are means to limit the financial gains of the uber-corrupt. They have no impact on the Thai policmen trying to make his payment up the chain of command.

Don't assume I feel the westerner needs to come to Thailand to fix it. Take my words at face value. There are some universal wrongs that anyone needs to right, if they have the chance. I take no issue with the Dali Lama nor the Pope nor anyone else, for example, making their views known on capital punishment in the USA. They see capital punishment as a universal wrong, and they have the platform to be heard on their views. My posts are not condescending lectures on Western good, Thai bad. It is merely that I disagree with the 100% fealty to the idea that if something is done within a cultural context, then it is correct and no one from outside of the culture should "stick his nose into it."

"Don't assume I feel the westerner needs to come to Thailand to fix it."

OK, apologies for misunderstanding you bonobo, I thought you were and I was wrong

[bonobo]

"Don't assume I feel the westerner needs to come to Thailand to fix it."

OK, apologies for misunderstanding you bonobo, I thought you were and I was wrong

No problem.  

[Berkshire]

A smart man would worry about things that he has control over, and not dwell on the most negative aspects of which he has no control. The problem with Mr. J1V and others like him is that when they complain about wanting "change," many of the changes they propose would usually benefit themselves. That's why the opinions of foreigners are largely ignored. Expat's aren't really concerned about the vast majority of Thai's. There's an awful lot of hyperbole in the OPs opening comments and if you choose to, you can believe it and live your life accordingly. Up to you. Do understand that your opinion really doesn't mean squat in the overall scheme of things.

I quite disagree. If you have control over something, there's little reason to worry about it. Indeed, it's a lack of control that causes most people to worry. You are probably correct that expats aren't really concerned about most Thais, and the Thais return the favor and have little real interest in the expat.

You've missed my point. The kinds of things I'm talking about when I say "things that you have control over" are such things as raising your children right, doing the best you can at work, dealing with family crisis, financial planning, staying healthy, etc. The kinds of things that you have no control over? How Thai's behave or perceive you. Thai class conflicts. Thai governmental policy. Wars. Famine. The weather. Get it?

[Pakboong]

US Flying Fortresses were bombing Bangkok. The city was on fire. Thai diplomats were desperately trying to repeal their declaration of war against the US and Brits. British and Indian troops were on the Thai border ready to occupy Thailand. A treaty was on the table in Washington ceding Thailand to Britain.

Now that is paradise lost.

A year later. Everything is OK. The Brits stopped in for a while to send the Japanese home and then left.

Thais were building hotels for the post WW II expected tourist boom. Bangkok wasn’t on fire anymore. Everyone was happy.

I think the current problems pale in comparison.

I don't think it's a valid comparison. You're talking about something occurring during a nearly world-wide war during which Japan had been invaded by the Japanese, as compared to a situation that is occurring now that is wholly due to the Thais themselves. The situation you describe happened to Thailand. The situation occurring now is happening by Thailand.

Partly true but the Thai’s did ally themselves with the Japanese. The alternatives were grim but they already had a history of cooperating with the Japanese against the French during the Franco Thai war only a couple of years before. The Japanese helped the Thais get large amounts of French Indochina.

A Thai diplomat said upon the announcement of the Japanese alliance and declaration of war that he hoped the Thais would find a golden tongue to explain their actions when the Allies won the war.

If you look at causality numbers of Thais during WW II, I don’t think they minded having the Japanese as Allies as opposed to the numbers of deaths in Vietnam, Burma and Singapore to name but a few. You can check it out with Google. Along with the Franco Thai war and/or occupation of Burma by Thai troops and why the Thais wanted to occupy Burma. Hint the production of a certain product increased from 8 tons per year to 36 tons per year under the Thais.

It would be nice to say it was not the Thais fault but they were working hand and hand with the Japanese. None of the other countries in Asia cooperated. The Thais were Japan’s only voluntary ally.

So I think the comparison may be more valid than you think.

Field Marshal Plaek Pibulsongkram, the Thai PM during the war chose the Japanese over the capitalist Chinese with whom he had been quarreling for years. He had closed Chinese schools, social organizations and applied direct taxation to Chinese owned businesses. For him, it may have been a case of the lesser of two evils. He was exiled to Japan in 1957 after two different terms as PM both of which involved running quarrels with the capitalist Chinese Thais.

[JSixpack]

Nicely written. I did not come to Thailand to change the Thai's, they should be what they want to be....

...

I have no problem with these people staying the way they are, if that is what they want. Who am I to want to change them?

I think you're right that Thai people and the Thai nation should be who they want to be and what the nation wants to be. It isn't up to us to change them, and in fact, we shouldn't try to change their culture.

. . .

And that brings us back to my initial point in this posting -- we shouldn't attempt to change Thais or Thailand. It's their country. But don't expect to be respected by other people in the world and other nations if your country doesn't meet international standards.

I say we should if we want to, then what the hel_l. They might like our changes and have a better country for them--if they had a free choice.

The mistake here is in the assumption that "the Thai people," whatever that means, determine their culture. Actually it is determined by the government and the elite behind the gov't for their own advantage. It is used as a prominent excuse for legitimacy in the absence of true democracy. The majority are NOT free to determine their culture owing to the relentless brainwashing, restriction of information (e. g., 43,000 websites blocked), and lack of free speech. The result is a populace living in ignorance, superstition, servility, fear, and poverty.

In this circumstance, foreigners are the only hope of bringing alternatives among which Thai people would choose IF they had a free choice. And in most cases, they would choose advancement in the Western direction for economic prosperity if nothing else.

Japanese wisely recognize and sometimes welcome gaiatsu as sometimes the only means of affecting positive change in the face of a recalcitrant and corrupt government. Much more to be said on that topic.

[JSixpack]

As I wrote, I don't know where the line of demarcation would be.  And actually, as far as cannibalism, personally, I won't judge a group who eats their naturally dead.  Disgusting to me, maybe, but as an effort to keep loved ones alive forever, who am I to say it is wrong?

Well, as to who you are, maybe you are so educated, enlightened, and rational that you know that science triumphs superstition--and so realize that the effort is barbaric nonsense.

And if you are, then, yes, you COULD very well say it's wrong. Me, now, I'd have not the least hesitation in making a judgment against such a practice.

[thaibeachlovers]

And that brings us back to my initial point in this posting -- we shouldn't attempt to change Thais or Thailand. It's their country. But don't expect to be respected by other people in the world and other nations if your country doesn't meet international standards.

I agree that for most things, it is not up to foreigners to change another country or its peoples. However, sometimes it is.

Not Thailand, but I hold that executing adulterers in patently wrong, as is executing a 7-year-old for "spying." I hold that refusing to allow people to teach anti-HIV measures in India because that infers that Indians have sex outside of marriage is wrong. I think that allowing pollution to destroy a river and ruining the life of those other countries' peoples downstream to make a living is wrong. And Thailand has a few things which are also wrong, in my humble opinion. You can shout "culture" all you want, but some things are just wrong. And even as an outsider, people can act in ways which might help change those wrongs.

People in some tribes in New Guinea practiced cannibalism. They also suffered from kuru from eating the brains of others. Western governments, aghast at the practice, tried to stamp it out as did the PNG government upon independence. Whether the act of cannibalism, as practiced there was morally right or wrong can be subject to debate. But what is pretty clear is that kuru has basically disappeared in PNG. So something good has resulted in interference by outsiders.

I am not sure where the dividing line between right and wrong really is. What is OK and what is not. But some things should be stopped, and anyone who has the power to influence them should do so.

While I support your belief that some things are wrong, and should be stopped, I have a problem with the idea that "outsiders" should interfere in a different country/ culture to change things, other than when the "wrong" things directly affect another country. ie the counterfeiting in LOS directly affects citizens in the US, so they have a "right" to prevent it happening.

While some things may be abbhorent to us, so long as it's "local", it's really not for us to interfere. Most non Muslim citizens in the west find it outrageous that some Muslims demand Sharia in their secular societies, while those Muslims think the west is wrong for not introducing it. Who is right? Depends on your outlook.

I also think it leads to unwanted interference by moralists, who try to outlaw things THEY believe to be wrong, such as has happened in Thailand by many NGOs regarding a certain activity in LOS enjoyed by many tourists. Who do they think they are to try and ban something just because THEY think it's wrong. They should get a life!

[Voice]

Hello dumball, just-1-voice, Mikeyldea, firstly I would like to thank you all fror a warm welcome. I left the Nation site almost two years ago when they has to closed down the site over some crazy guy. Well I’m glad to be back as a newbie.

To continue with what I had said yesterday I would like to begin with a peace negotiation that never was! When Abhisit has offer the red shirt the road map he knew it too well that it going to be rejected by the opposition. In the bit to safe face he has to make the opposition look guilty knowing too well that they have no choice but not to accept the road map. As the whole nation is divided our country has become a country of many colour and within these many colour people still have to abide by they duty. The military and police officer have also a colour deep within their uniform which makes it very hard for them to do their duty. Yes! Thai mustn’t fight Thai if we try to have the unity. How can we dilute these colours into one that strong with unity of one voice? I’m sure that what we all wanted. Abhisit nor Thaksin is not the answer that we looking for. We will need new young blood that has no relation with those old crows to enter a life of Thai politic. While the elites and the establishment have their argument we the people will continue to suffer. The main source of our country problem is greed & power but through togetherness and total unity we common people could win this fight. So we will need all the help we can get to bring back the unity that we used to have in time of war. This isn’t a war as such but it would be a fight against greed & power to whom has brought this country down to the gutter and has divided our country into many colours through their greed of power. So we must not allow ourselves to be bought by that dirty money through vote buyer. At this moment Suthep and Newin has got more than 2/3 under their control between them. Thailand won’t be Thailand without it unity and togetherness that sing with the same voice.

Mikeyldea you don’t have to be surprise I have been here few years ago left this site due to some silly guy crazy post that Nation has to close the site down. Well I recon I be hear more from you then Mikey!

[Ulysses G.]

I would like to begin with a peace negotiation that never was! When Abhisit has offer the red shirt the road map he knew it too well that it going to be rejected by the opposition.

So what? He still offered peace and the reds rejected it. They refused to leave the business district and then proceeded to burn much of it to the ground. What happened in Bangkok and the rest of the country is not Abhisit's responsibility. It is theirs.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[livinthailandos]

A very good article indeed in my opinion, the first in a very long time that I’ve seen on thaivisa.

A few things though.

1. Corruption

2. Unwilling to step into reality

3. Unwilling to change or adapt

These issues face every country in the world, just to what degree.

On the reality vs image in thailand.

1. This year in May & June 2 times it has been reported and shown from the damage that someone fired a RPG. Thats right a RPG going off not to far from bangkok

2. Bombs, beheadings, in the south 4 years and on already

3. During the ending week in central bangkok in may with standoff between government vs the reds, what happens, banks, malls, and other areas where SET ON FIRE. I’m really surprised they didn’t blow up gas stations.

Seems to me things like this happens at a point where things can and will only get worse. I don’t like violence but the reality is every country in the world throughout history at some point and time a events happen and it turns bloody, violent. sometimes the violence was short but most of the time it lasts very long even years or decades.

The reality is maybe the thai’s don’t want to face reality, that might mean actually waking up and trying to make change. Thailand Image is basically a joke seriously, with the internet, 24 hour news networks, information comes so fast that everyone can see whats going on. Unless serious change starts to happen, thailand can only go further downhill.

[Xangsamhua]

On the reality vs image in thailand.

1. This year in May & June 2 times it has been reported and shown from the damage that someone fired a RPG. Thats right a RPG going off not to far from bangkok

2. Bombs, beheadings, in the south 4 years and on already

3. During the ending week in central bangkok in may with standoff between government vs the reds, what happens, banks, malls, and other areas where SET ON FIRE. I'm really surprised they didn't blow up gas stations.

Seems to me things like this happens at a point where things can and will only get worse. I don't like violence but the reality is every country in the world throughout history at some point and time a events happen and it turns bloody, violent. sometimes the violence was short but most of the time it lasts very long even years or decades.

It's not hard to point out the things that are not good in Thailand, but just out of interest I looked up in various sources the death toll in European wars and civil conflicts (e.g. Russia) and political purges/ethnic cleansing since World War One.

The figure is roughly 85 million dead, the majority civilians. (See http://users.erols.c.../warstats1.htm)

The number of Thai deaths from 20th century and recent internal conflict (e.g. the South) plus the Franco-Thai War plus Thaksin's "war on drugs" is about 6500.

So one can argue that the Thais are corrupt, inefficient, etc but if you want to avoid serious violence it would seem that Thailand has been a much safer haven than Europe.

[Voice]

Ulysses G. wrote “So what? He still offered peace and the reds rejected it. They refused to leave the business district and then proceeded to burn much of it to the ground. What happened in Bangkok and the rest of the country is not Abhisit's responsibility. It is theirs.

Why did you think that Ulysses? Aren’t Prime minister is responsible for the country welfare? If he really wanted peace why not offer then something that they could accepted and workable for both side. Before you accusing the red shirt for not accept the proposal first you must understand why? Can you tell our of the five points that he has offered which one do you think it will work best or does it work at all? I think we have past all that now to put blaims. The reasom that I mention about the peace offered by Abhisit is because since then nothing much has happen. Does he want peace or not in your own opinion? Since internation media is still talking about the issue of Thailand it cannot be good for our country does it? Do you really think civil war is good for us. It easy for the foriegners like you to pick up your bags & go if it ever comes to that (civil war) I mean. The red didn’t burn all the building down they only chose the building that belong to those who has supported PAD. What do you really know about the plight of our country? At best you will talk about our education or how we behave in certain maner. Do you have any good idea to offer us or perhaps do things in contribution to our society that could bring peace to this country.

[Ulysses G.]

If he really wanted peace why not offer then something that they could accepted and workable for both side.

Because nothing would have been "workable" for the protesters other than making Thaksin Prime Minister again and that would have not been "workable" for the government supporters - and now it is probably impossible for him to be trusted by most of the country.

By rejecting the peace deal and then causing total anarchy, the reds lost most of the sympathy and support that would have been gained. They cut their own throats by not negotiating in good faith.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[Kilgore Trout]

I enjoyed the article. Thanks for taking the time to post.

TheWalkingMan

I too agree with many things the OP said but we must keep in mind to be unlike Diogenes and more like Epicurus

[gregb]

[if he really wanted peace why not offer then something that they could accepted and workable for both side.

The bigger question here is why do you believe what was offered wasn't "workable"? It was very workable for everyone except for Thaksin.

And yes, I believe Abhisit wants peace. But first he has to eliminate the threat of Thaksin so that peace is possible. Thaksin is a non negotiable obstacle to peace. Everything else is on the table except for that.

[philw]

Ulysses G. wrote “So what? He still offered peace and the reds rejected it. They refused to leave the business district and then proceeded to burn much of it to the ground. What happened in Bangkok and the rest of the country is not Abhisit's responsibility. It is theirs.

Why did you think that Ulysses? Aren’t Prime minister is responsible for the country welfare? If he really wanted peace why not offer then something that they could accepted and workable for both side. Before you accusing the red shirt for not accept the proposal first you must understand why? Can you tell our of the five points that he has offered which one do you think it will work best or does it work at all? I think we have past all that now to put blaims. The reasom that I mention about the peace offered by Abhisit is because since then nothing much has happen. Does he want peace or not in your own opinion? Since internation media is still talking about the issue of Thailand it cannot be good for our country does it? Do you really think civil war is good for us. It easy for the foriegners like you to pick up your bags & go if it ever comes to that (civil war) I mean. The red didn’t burn all the building down they only chose the building that belong to those who has supported PAD. What do you really know about the plight of our country? At best you will talk about our education or how we behave in certain maner. Do you have any good idea to offer us or perhaps do things in contribution to our society that could bring peace to this country.

Great post and very much fair comment.

PhilW.

[Judia]

Isn't it Best if Our Country just get wipe out of the map? Look at how thing turning out to be, look at the People, i have to say that people like us(Thai) should All hang ourself and be in peace.

I once love my country. Our Tradition is fading like Titanic sinking into the abyss. The City Of Angel or soo they call is nothing more then just Words. Luckily i never like bangkok soo whatever happen to bangkok doesnt concern me since i dont live in thailand either

I find our country is nothing more then a City Of Hatred

Edited July 15, 2010 by Judia

[Xangsamhua]

Do you really think civil war is good for us. It easy for the foriegners like you to pick up your bags & go if it ever comes to that (civil war) I mean. The red didn't burn all the building down they only chose the building that belong to those who has supported PAD. What do you really know about the plight of our country?

Civil War would be a disaster for Thailand, as there is no noble cause to fight for. Who wants to die for the Bangkok hi-sos on the one hand or Thaksin and the regional/rural godfathers on the other?

However, a good start to the avoidance of more serious conflict would be to restrain the elements that believe its OK to burn down buildings because their owners support an opposing movement.

[Voice]

When you have it you won't miss it until it gone. If you never have it you won't miss either. But when you have a test of it you always wanted more. This is the different between having and not having it. Being foreigners you won't know the different between having and not having it in our country.

Ulysses wrote "would have been "workable" for the protesters other than making Thaksin Prime Minister again and that would have not been "workable" for the government supporters - and now it is probably impossible for him to be trusted by most of the country. By rejecting the peace deal and then causing total anarchy, the reds lost most of the sympathy and support that would have been gained. They cut their own throats by not negotiating in good faith

Gregb wrote "The bigger question here is why do you believe what was offered wasn't "workable"? It was very workable for everyone except for Thaksin.

And yes, I believe Abhisit wants peace. But first he has to eliminate the threat of Thaksin so that peace is possible. Thaksin is a non negotiable obstacle to peace. Everything else is on the table except for that.

I want you both to have clear understanding about me and the reason why I am here. I am not here to defend Thaksin nor do I ever support Thaksin course. I'm very much doubted that Thaksin would ever be Thailand Prime Minister again. And I don't think he is that stupid enough to want to be Prime Minister again. It isn't very safe for him to be here or to live here in peace that for sure. As far as most people are concern he is a damage good. Only thing that he did good for the poor is something the poor won't forget and would probably fighting on for him. But since he was part of the problem and that inculding Mr. Abhisit the problem isn't going to go away by itself. Both you comments is a bit out of line I'm sure you don't know better. Yes, Thailand have lost it good reputation over the years through our political crisis. To solve the problem we must understand what & why we keeping having this problem. If the people still feeling very bad about what they recives from government they will take to street in protest again & again. People has some good test from Thaksin and now they wants more. If this government ignore this it won't be much of government. The government must try to give something back to the people especially the poor of Thailand. We cannot solve our problem by beating them to supmission or hope the problem will go away by itself. Finger pointing as you have stated isn't going to help. I only state the fact that so far this government hasn't done anything to bring peace to our country. Abhisit need to have new election to ensure his position as the right leader vote by the people. If this situation continue without majority to have their say then they'll be back. My principle stand is for justice for all and what has happened its far from being fair. Thailand cannot solve it problem through coup or dictator by those elites. So let's not talking about the prolems that we all knew. Please let's talk about what we can do with the problem that we have in our hand. Being a good leader doesn't mean you have a nice face it must come with a brain as well if you want to run a country. If you have good education then you must learn how to use it fully. If the whole team is good then it would have been easy to achieve anything. If one is good and the rest is all corrupt you not going to make it in this world. As most politicains in Thailand are quite corrupt it would be very difficult to fight it with a single hand. It will need the whole country unity to bring down corrupt official. The game still very much in play so the question is are you willing to play this game?

Edited July 15, 2010 by Voice

[scorecard]

I disagree with many much of your post.

I would love to comments on your 'points' one by one, but I simply don't have time. But I will say that many of your 'points' are factually incorrect, untruthfull and even divisive.

In essence I would suggest this is quite cleverly concocted, somthing like mr. amsterdam at half strength.

[Voice]

Ulysses wrote "Because nothing would have been "workable" for the protesters other than making Thaksin Prime Minister again and that would have not been "workable" for the government supporters - and now it is probably impossible for him to be trusted by most of the country.

By rejecting the peace deal and then causing total anarchy, the reds lost most of the sympathy and support that would have been gained. They cut their own throats by not negotiating in good faith.

Ulysses when you talking us being trusted by most of the country I think you have misread the situation, WHY? Because if they really have total trust in him things won't get out of hand like it did. It won't be just a handful of the pink shirt it would be the whole country up in arms in his support. But we didn't see that did we! Government must do it best to bring peace ever which way it can so all of us can move forward. They might submissive now as it would like waiting for it to explode into civil war and we don't really want that do we.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Voice

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry, but you are misreading much of what I have written, so it is difficult to answer you. I said that Thaksin is NOT trusted by much of the country.

However I do agree that PM Abhisit is a good man and will have a problem finding other politicians that are not corrupt to help him improve the country. Chuan was a good man and had much the same problem.

[scorecard]

When you have it you won't miss it until it gone. If you never have it you won't miss either. But when you have a test of it you always wanted more. This is the different between having and not having it. Being foreigners you won't know the different between having and not having it in our country.

Ulysses wrote "would have been "workable" for the protesters other than making Thaksin Prime Minister again and that would have not been "workable" for the government supporters - and now it is probably impossible for him to be trusted by most of the country. By rejecting the peace deal and then causing total anarchy, the reds lost most of the sympathy and support that would have been gained. They cut their own throats by not negotiating in good faith

Gregb wrote "The bigger question here is why do you believe what was offered wasn't "workable"? It was very workable for everyone except for Thaksin.

And yes, I believe Abhisit wants peace. But first he has to eliminate the threat of Thaksin so that peace is possible. Thaksin is a non negotiable obstacle to peace. Everything else is on the table except for that.

I want you both to have clear understanding about me and the reason why I am here. I am not here to defend Thaksin nor do I ever support Thaksin course. I'm very much doubted that Thaksin would ever be Thailand Prime Minister again. And I don't think he is that stupid enough to want to be Prime Minister again. It isn't very safe for him to be here or to live here in peace that for sure. As far as most people are concern he is a damage good. Only thing that he did good for the poor is something the poor won't forget and would probably fighting on for him. But since he was part of the problem and that inculding Mr. Abhisit the problem isn't going to go away by itself. Both you comments is a bit out of line I'm sure you don't know better. Yes, Thailand have lost it good reputation over the years through our political crisis. To solve the problem we must understand what & why we keeping having this problem. If the people still feeling very bad about what they recives from government they will take to street in protest again & again. People has some good test from Thaksin and now they wants more. If this government ignore this it won't be much of government. The government must try to give something back to the people especially the poor of Thailand. We cannot solve our problem by beating them to supmission or hope the problem will go away by itself. Finger pointing as you have stated isn't going to help. I only state the fact that so far this government hasn't done anything to bring peace to our country. Abhisit need to have new election to ensure his position as the right leader vote by the people. If this situation continue without majority to have their say then they'll be back. My principle stand is for justice for all and what has happened its far from being fair. Thailand cannot solve it problem through coup or dictator by those elites. So let's not talking about the prolems that we all knew. Please let's talk about what we can do with the problem that we have in our hand. Being a good leader doesn't mean you have a nice face it must come with a brain as well if you want to run a country. If you have good education then you must learn how to use it fully. If the whole team is good then it would have been easy to achieve anything. If one is good and the rest is all corrupt you not going to make it in this world. As most politicains in Thailand are quite corrupt it would be very difficult to fight it with a single hand. It will need the whole country unity to bring down corrupt official. The game still very much in play so the question is are you willing to play this game?

I address just your post, as follows:

1. - Yes, there is very definitely a very big gap in Thai society in terms of living standards, opportunity, and fair justice. There is no doubt whatever that this is true! It's also true in many supposedly well developed countries, but that doesn't mean it's OK!

2. - Abhisit didn't create this situation, but please be fair, he (and Khun Korn) have been trying to get started to address this situation from very soon after he assumed the PM position, well before the songkran mahem of 2009 and the red shirt mob violence of the last few months.

3. - There is clearly a need for a systematic approach to gaining change, and there are processes in the pipline to work on it, to fix the foundations so that the problems disappear longer term.

In fact the need for change has been evident for several decades but no PM prior to abhisit has paid any attention to the matter. And please don't say that thaksin took care of the poor - handouts given out just at the right time don't, long-term, fix anything.

4. - The red shirts/UDD group.

4.a. - I refer back to and emphasise my point 1 above.

4. b - The red shirts / UDD are not , overall, a legitimate movement for change, never never never have jatuporn, veera, arisman, weng etc., given a speech, given a presentation, taken part in a moderated debate etc., about the reason for and the processes of building and maintaining democracy or provided any input into how to reduce the gap.

In fact they are nothing more than a paid smokescreen over getting a pardon for thaksin and a return to the old constitition which would be of gain to thakins ends and his corrupt cronies ends.

They claim they are oppoesed to 'double standards', but in reality they and their paymaster wrote the text book of case studies of double standards.

Edited July 15, 2010 by scorecard